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Originally posted by BP:
you guys need to stop that. the terrorist blame game goes further back than clinton.
very true. I dont want to point fingers, but many extremist muslims became angry at the fact that middle eastern countries asked Bush senior and the US to help in getting Saddam and his forces out of Kuwait. It wasnt really anyones fault, but Osama felt betrayed that the west was called into help in the early 90's rather than other ME allys. And the fact that the US had staioned a large portion of troops on holy land was also looked down upon by many fanatics.
The building up of hatred can go back further than that, however it was around this time where western influence started to be hated by many.
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Originally posted by BP:
you guys need to stop that. the terrorist blame game goes further back than clinton. and there's enough blame to go around for the iraq war too.
as far as the terrorist winning...that's not going to happen. the muslim community in general was moving towards a less conservative and less extremist position before 9/11 and iraq.
it will take a long time for things to get back to where they were pre-iraq and pre-9/11.
Pre-Iraq? Pre-9/11? You mean like when the ayatollahs overthrew the very Western-friendly Shah in Iran in 1979? Or maybe when the Taliban took over Afghanistan in the 1990s? You probably don't remember the Taliban demolishing ancient Buddhist statues while working to make Afghanistan a pure Muslim state. And all you have to do is look at what happened to dissidents in Iraq before Hussein was deposed to realize the chance that "the muslim community" there had of expelling the Ba'athist regime.
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Originally posted by BP:
you guys need to stop that. the terrorist blame game goes further back than clinton.
I want examples. I also want you to point out how these failures led to where we are today. I can lay out, point by point, what happened during the mid to late 90's under Clinton because I was there, and I saw the information first hand. I also know the exact information that was presented to the CiC in his daily briefs, and I also know what our internal and global assessments were at the time -- nowhere else in history has there been such a failure to act on solid intel.
Originally posted by BP:
that's not going to happen. the muslim community in general was moving towards a less conservative and less extremist position before 9/11 and iraq.
You must have been wearing blinders pre-9/11 then, like the rest of the world. I most certainly did NOT see this less-extremist model forming anywhere, except in countries that are still our allies to this day.
Originally posted by BP:
it will take a long time for things to get back to where they were pre-iraq and pre-9/11.
Finally, something you said MAKES SENSE for once. It sure will take them a much longer time to rebuild their arsenals, and retrain the hundreds of their soldiers we've taken out. Not to mention the fact that we've eliminated known training camps in 9 countries with the help of our allies, all since 9/11. (Bet you didn't know that figure, since it's not quoted in your ultra-liberal media outlets.)
As usual BP you place more blame on us.
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Originally posted by EternalOne:
Originally posted by BP:
you guys need to stop that. the terrorist blame game goes further back than clinton.
I want examples. I also want you to point out how these failures led to where we are today. I can lay out, point by point, what happened during the mid to late 90's under Clinton because I was there, and I saw the information first hand. I also know the exact information that was presented to the CiC in his daily briefs, and I also know what our internal and global assessments were at the time -- nowhere else in history has there been such a failure to act on solid intel.
Originally posted by BP:
that's not going to happen. the muslim community in general was moving towards a less conservative and less extremist position before 9/11 and iraq.
You must have been wearing blinders pre-9/11 then, like the rest of the world. I most certainly did NOT see this less-extremist model forming anywhere, except in countries that are still our allies to this day.
Originally posted by BP:
it will take a long time for things to get back to where they were pre-iraq and pre-9/11.
Finally, something you said MAKES SENSE for once. It sure will take them a much longer time to rebuild their arsenals, and retrain the hundreds of their soldiers we've taken out. Not to mention the fact that we've eliminated known training camps in 9 countries with the help of our allies, all since 9/11. (Bet you didn't know that figure, since it's not quoted in your ultra-liberal media outlets.)
As usual BP you place more blame on us.
E1
if anyone watched the CNN special "in the footsteps of Bin Laden" youd have seen the actual memo that Bush Jr was given about terrosists planning to hijack and fly planes into federal buildings. That was shown to him a week or so before the attacks, Id say thats preetty solid intel.
as for everyone that says Clinton did nothing about terrorism. He ordered attacks on Bin Laden camps, they almost got him too. Its not like he ignored the guy and to be fair Osama was only emerging as a world wide figure during clintons tenure.
Its pretty easy to lay blame on whoever you want. The thing is it doesnt solve the problem. Only when people understand why a person acts the way they do, can one really act to change that behaviour.
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Originally posted by EternalOne...Mr Intel Analyst:
I want examples.
Here you go. put in iraq. that'll pull up all the examples you need. you may want to check the archives too.
and you can't be so gullible to think that clinton created bin laden or put him in the position to gain the strength he eventually did. you know, with you being an intel analyst and all i'd think you'd know better than that.
lol...talk about blame. you were the one placing blame. i was just pointing out that there's enough blame to go around for the people prior to clinton (who armed and empowered bin laden, then left him to his own devices) and the people who ignored or mishandled the information about the 9/11 attackers that were gallivanting around our country prior to getting behind the wheel of 747s.
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Originally posted by loggerbomb:
as for everyone that says Clinton did nothing about terrorism. He ordered attacks on Bin Laden camps, they almost got him too. Its not like he ignored the guy and to be fair Osama was only emerging as a world wide figure during clintons tenure.
Very true. A request for an all out attack/search and destroy put on Osama at that time would have made it nowhere. National and international support for such an endeavour at that time was non existant. Congress and the House would have shot such a proposal down in minutes.
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Originally posted by BP:
i was just pointing out that there's enough blame to go around for the people prior to clinton (who armed and empowered bin laden, then left him to his own devices)
True, there was much influence and money within the Bin Laden family at the time and combined with the fact that western powers (mainly the US) armed him, he became a significant threat. However at that time, Bin Laden had no qualms with the US, rather the USSR trying to take political control over Afganistan. But who knew that he would come back to bite us in the ass?
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Originally posted by Big Daddy Kane:
Hey, Kuwaitis like us...
And this is why:
Originally posted by NO 4 EVR:
middle eastern countries asked Bush senior and the US to help in getting Saddam and his forces out of Kuwait.
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Originally posted by BP:
...the muslim community in general was moving towards a less conservative and less extremist position before 9/11 and iraq...
Complete and utter tripe. Ever since Sadat was killed in Egypt and the slaughter during the Berlin Olympics, extremism in Islam has only grown in popularity. Furthermore, Islam in the Middle-East has been actually moving towards more conservative doctrine and interpretation of Islamic law this past decade or so...
Don't take my word for it, though. There are many articles, books and even interviews of Muslim clerics that will support this position.
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Originally posted by loggerbomb:
if anyone watched the CNN special "in the footsteps of Bin Laden" youd have seen the actual memo that Bush Jr was given about terrosists planning to hijack and fly planes into federal buildings. That was shown to him a week or so before the attacks, Id say thats preetty solid intel.
Pick up a copy of "Ghost Wars" and read all 700+ pages of it. It does a much better job of hashing out the failures of the Regan, Bush I and ultimately the Clinton administraton in terms of not keeping more eyes on the Middle-East (and not just Israel and Saudi Arabia).
Partisan minds will place blame where it's most convienent to them in terms of which administration did what; those with a little more vision will see that there have been failures on both the political and religious front on all sides that have compounded each other. In terms of the sheer number of oversights and failures, I must say my tally has always spiked during the mid and late 90's, though one cannot completely blade Clinton for some of the snafu's that the CIA caused due to them concentrating on the Cold War fallout in Europe and Western Asia.
JaTo
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