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Learned patience the hard way
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Learned patience the hard way
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Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
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Joined: Oct 2001
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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I def agree with Rick. Impossible for anyone to to duplicate that block, especial with all new parts. You could probaly build that 350, maybe with a single barrel carb, making less than or around 300hp. Who wants that?
I have seen a Duratec block drilled for squirters right from the main oil gallery.
'99 Silver svt
For sale
19" Axis Neo wheels
3.0 parts, pre-98 trunk,
Check classifieds
bp.powell@comcast.net
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that it�s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
I CAN. I could do it for half that price for myself.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Actually, I can make a stock block duratec engine do this.... 
OK. Suffice to say that the least troublesome way for me to assure myself of a quality long block, well suited for turbo charging was to write a check to AER.
Warmonger, you�re not saying you could assemble an equivalent Noble long block for half the price that AER does? Are you? $2150?
I know trading time for money really works when applied to engine machining and assembly. I�ve built my share of inexpensive PAW small block ford kits to know that, not to mention a 390 FE and a regrettably high dollar 428 FE rebuild.
So maybe you could source the parts for less than $2150 and use your time and experience and well-equipped shop to put it together. Can you do the machining for piston squirters as well?
My engine rebuilding days are over. I never really much enjoyed that aspect of the car hobby. With the power available from forced induction and electronic tuning, I have no incentive to do the kinds of things I used to do with 60�s iron anyway.
Sorry but I didn't say that I could do it for half the price using their same parts and methods.
I took your sentence to mean an equivalent block capable of sustaining high power forced induction.
I can do that for $2500.
And yes, I already designed an oil squirter system even though I didn't install it in my block due to time constraints, testing, and the fact that I really didn't see the need for the type of duty cycle the engine sees.
Buckshot: Even you must agree that there are enough forged pistons rolling around that they can be had affordably second-hand now. Even new I would have about $1200 into rods and with different piston choices if I chose to do both and that would leave me another $12-1300. I would NOT go to the expense of the ST220 cams as they aren't worth the money when you can produce godawfull amounts of power with a set of stock escape cams or even SVT cams. And don't forget that a long block has none of the conversions requirements to run the contour intakes and stuff like that. He will still have to do all that work on top of the $4500 initial investment. So yeah, I think I'm on the mark for $2500 for a long block that can take 500-600 crank horsepower.
Also, let not forget what we are building the engine for? Street, strip, oval?
One night a week at the drag strip is not the same as racing continually at high rpm/power levels. How long the engine stays at max rpm and max boost is a big factor in the choice for oil squirters, springs, retainers, etc. I"m assuming he's doing what I did, building a street/strip car.
On the other hand:
For peace of mind, $4500 for a long block is a good deal, esp. considering the price of a new stock motor. Excellent deal actually.
But having been in and out of these engines this whole time I know now what to replace and what not to. I know what to mod, and when to do it.
And finally, I can say I know how to produce a most excellent tune and that is probably 75% of the equation when it comes to reliability and durability.
Last edited by warmonger; 06/20/06 03:39 PM.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
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Originally posted by Ray:
I'd buy THAT for a dollar!
Wait... I DID buy that!
And, yes.. it WILL produce 400+ FWHP reliably...
Congrats on your purchase Jim!!
LMAO. 
Wait, where are my pictures? 
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
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Also why I feel that my $6K motor is getting shunned is that everyone doesn't grasp it's capabilities. This block was built for road racing (sustained high RPM) and all the components used where sourced accordingly. Yet nobody can see past the sticker price. $6K shipped is an awesome deal for a drop in engine and trust me, I'm loosing quite a bit of money on it! That figure is parts alone and doesn't account for assembly & packaging for S&H.
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Last edited by fastcougar; 06/20/06 04:15 PM.
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Redneck Troll
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Redneck Troll
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Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
Rifle drilled rods isn't what they're advertising though, it's oil squirters. In most cases, oil squirters are drilled/tapped into the oil gally and use 1/16" or so tubing aimed up to hit the bottom of the piston...
http://www.bnmotorsports.com
"And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my CEG brothers. And you will know I am the Moderator when I lay my vengeance upon you."
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Originally posted by fastcougar:
Also why I feel that my $6K motor is getting shunned is that everyone doesn't grasp it's capabilities. This block was built for road racing (sustained high RPM) and all the components used where sourced accordingly. Yet nobody can see past the sticker price. $6K shipped is an awesome deal for a drop in engine and trust me, I'm loosing quite a bit of money on it! That figure is parts alone and doesn't account for assembly & packaging for S&H.
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Trust me I would buy your engine if I had the funds.
Aaron
AKA NVS SVT
98.5 Silver/Blue SVT#4553
Yeah it's modded
98 T-Red/Blue SVT Contour Totaled 06/05/06
03 3L,VCN 2000,CAT Cams,MSDS Headers w/Y-Pipe,XCal2 and lots more
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
I know, they where an option on my Pauter rods 
I was speaking more along the lines of the squirters found on the Mazda 1.6L Turbo blocks found in the GTX (I think that's the model ... AWD turbo 323 basically).
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by fastcougar:
.....
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Oh, I don't know about that. What would a 500 HP engine put down to the ground?
Assuming about 18% loss, a loss of about 90 HP would yield 410 HP at the wheels?
You also have to understand the rods aren't "proven" to a horsepower rating anyway. The performance companies sell them that way based on artificial assumptions and because HP numbers are what people want to hear.
You should know that a metal part really only has a few mechanical properties that can determine its usefullness. Giving a horsepower rating to a rod is a BOGUS rating , a guideline only, or to just plain sell product. When I mention a power rating I'm talking about the engine package as a whole, not the individual rod.
Dynamic tensile stress, static compressive stress, fatigue and maybe shear that would be stresses I'd be concerned with right off the bat. The properties of the rod are going to be the Yield Strength and Ultimate Tensile Strength, elasticity, K1c fracture toughness; to name a few.
All I'm saying is that it is a load of bunk when you buy rods rated at 1000 horsepower because you don't even know how many rods (cylinders) they are talking about or the loads associated with the engine and how much each rod sees?
Does anyone get what I'm pointing at???
Lets assume you just put in forged pistons to a compression ratio of 9:1 and used stock rods. Then set it up to be a 500 HP engine. The stock rods have been dyno proven to 350 ft-lbs of torque; to 7200 rpm while under 300+ ft-lbs of torque, by me. They've handled upwards of 8000rpm by DemonSVT, 8500rpm under load I think I remember and sustained it no sweat not a mark. Same rod is used in mulitiple engines of differen't power ratings.
The tensile stress is based mainly on rpm and ultimately the accelerations the piston sees. The compressive stress is the load due to the combustion pressure...the power stroke. Therefore 350 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm should be no more harmful to the rods than 350 ft-lbs at 6500 rpm since the rods are proven capable of significantly higher rpms.
Just think, 350ft-lbs at only 6300rpm will yield approximately 420 HP. 420 at the wheels back calculated is over 500 crankshaft horsepower even optimistically using an efficient conversion.YOu want to make power, make your peak torque higher in the power band, end of story.
BTW, when you buy an engine rated at a certain power it is rated at the crank because they have no idea what you coupling the engine to, and what the drivetrain losses.
Hence I can comfortably say that I can build an engine capable of producing 500 HP for $2500.
Then I can be equally comfortable saying that you'd need another 4 grand for the turbo/accessories and tuning. But hey, we're talking drop-in long blocks right?
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Does anyone get what I'm pointing at???
Lets assume you just put in forged pistons to a compression ratio of 9:1 and used stock rods. Then set it up to be a 500 HP engine.
I gotcha Tom.... nudge nudge...
It's kind of like many of the non FDA approved drugs that guarantee weight loss. Just because some people take the drug and loose weight doesn't mean the drug did it....nor does it mean it didin't.
For all the naysayers on the stock rods strength...who has even broken a rod? I know there is a well known person that believes they strech, but that theory has changed a couple times too.
There are just too many variables.
98 E0 SVT with some stuff
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