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I've been browsing the Focus FI forums for more info/ideas on boosting my Zetec. Instead of running larger MAF units, they are just using a Diablo MAFia. It's runs about $160 so it seems like it would be a nice alternative. It's got me wondering tho... I always tought that once you maxed out your stock MAF, that was it. It only put out 0-5volts. Does the MAF actually put out more than 5volts when pushed farther than it's stock limits? ..and the MAFia is just scaling that voltage range to 0-5volts? A range that the PCM can understand. How do you calibrate that to something like the SCT ProRace software? Is it just a guessing game as to what transfer function that you are running?  BP
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I knew it. I found this data on the mafturburner website... The default setting for the DIP switch is SW1 ââ?¬â?? SW4 ON. This will scale a MAF sensor output of 0-7Vdc to the full input range of the PCMââ?¬â?¢s A/D input of 0-5Vdc. This setting will only be used under the most extreme circumstances. If the unit is installed with the DIP switches in the default configuration and tuning changes are not made the car will be dangerously lean and may not run at all. As a general rule, do the LEAST amount of scaling possible for your application. Remember that the more you scale the MAF curve down, the more resolution you give up in the low-flow portion of the curve and that this may affect driveability.It scales pretty severely also. Check out their settings... Code:
Vin to Vout - Scalar Value - HP ('03 Cobra with stock 90mm MAF)
5V to 5V 1.0000000 545
5.5V to 5V 0.7635203 714
6V to 5V 0.5941677 918
6.5V to 5V 0.4714800 1156
7V to 5V 0.3804597 1433
This could all be done quite easily with an op-amp. Hmmmm...  BP
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To continue thinking out loud, here's a chart but with the MAF.ia values and some that I've calculated... Code:
Vin to Vout Adjustment Equivalent PR Equivalent Boost
5.0 V to 5V None 1.0 None
5.5V to 5V 24% or mult by 0.76 1.316 4.64psi
6.0V to 5V 41% or mult by 0.59 1.695 10.22psi
6.5V to 5V 53% or mult by 0.47 2.128 16.58psi
7.0V to 5V 62% or mult by 0.38 2.632 23.98psi
7.5V to 5V 70% or mult by 0.30 3.333 34.30psi
Sure as heck is enough headroom for any turbo setup. The only limiting factor would be the diameter of the MAF itself. By using an op-amp you could have any multiplier that you want. Not the coarse 5 settings that the Mafia gives you. You could dial it in to the exact HP that you are making giving you the best resolution.  BP
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So I'm guessing you have to use one of their special MAFs in order to get the 7 volt output scale, then you are rescaling it with electronics to fit back into the factory 0-5v scale?
Either way it sounds dumb as hell when you can just tune in any good factory maf from a lightning/cobra with a $325 xcal2.
ONLY in the case of a high performance 1000hp vehicle where they may not make a maf big enough to be capable of that kind of airflow would I think it would be worth attempting this, but then maybe I'd just go with an aftermarket management system using speed density or something.
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Originally posted by warmonger:
then maybe I'd just go with an aftermarket management system using speed density or something.
Ding ding ding.....AEM for example.
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Originally posted by warmonger:
So I'm guessing you have to use one of their special MAFs in order to get the 7 volt output scale, then you are rescaling it with electronics to fit back into the factory 0-5v scale?
Nope, no special MAF required. The stock MAF can put out over 5 volts. It's just that the PCM can't understand anything over 5 volts. The MAFia or Mafextender just scales the voltage down to the 0-5 volt range that the PCM can understand.
$150 for something that can make your stock MAF the size that you need and not waste resolution. Sounds pretty good to me.
BP
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Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
Originally posted by warmonger:
So I'm guessing you have to use one of their special MAFs in order to get the 7 volt output scale, then you are rescaling it with electronics to fit back into the factory 0-5v scale?
Nope, no special MAF required. The stock MAF can put out over 5 volts. It's just that the PCM can't understand anything over 5 volts. The MAFia or Mafextender just scales the voltage down to the 0-5 volt range that the PCM can understand.
$150 for something that can make your stock MAF the size that you need and not waste resolution. Sounds pretty good to me.
BP
WTF is going on!? You are attempting hacked tunning on an ATX/zetec!?!?    
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Nope. I've just found an alternative to ditching the stock MAF and upgrading to a (more expensive and less accurate) Lightning or Mustang MAF. I also have the SCT PRP and xcal2. I'm not hacking anything.  BP
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Less accurate? Whatchyoutalkinbout Willis? If you have the the PRP there is zero reason to squeeze your stock maf to size. Not to mention if you are going to be increasing the CFM's to the point where the voltage is maxed you would benefit from the larger diameter maf.
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Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
Nope. I've just found an alternative to ditching the stock MAF and upgrading to a (more expensive and less accurate) Lightning or Mustang MAF.
I also have the SCT PRP and xcal2. I'm not hacking anything.
BP
The lightning and mustang MAF's are no less accurate. Not sure where you got that idea from.
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This MAFia thingamajingie sounds like a POS. Also the claim that lightning and cobra mafs are expensive and inaccurate is utter garbage. What's inaccurate it the BS scaling this snake-oil bit of electronics does. Get a clue - ghetto mods don't work properly.
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Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
Originally posted by warmonger:
So I'm guessing you have to use one of their special MAFs in order to get the 7 volt output scale, then you are rescaling it with electronics to fit back into the factory 0-5v scale?
Nope, no special MAF required. The stock MAF can put out over 5 volts. It's just that the PCM can't understand anything over 5 volts. The MAFia or Mafextender just scales the voltage down to the 0-5 volt range that the PCM can understand.
$150 for something that can make your stock MAF the size that you need and not waste resolution. Sounds pretty good to me.
BP
Not me. Sounds like a waste of money.
Especially when you understand that the "MAF" doesn't "put out" any voltage of its own. It has a source/reference voltage that comes from the PCM and it 'does something' from this voltage. Think of the pcm maf wires as ~5v battery, +/- 1 volt and the MAF as a circuit that uses that voltage and returns some portion of that voltage. 7 volts seems out of the range to me.
If the Mafia does something to amplify the signal and then rescale it then perhaps.
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OK guys hear me out...
The stock MAF puts out more than 5 volts when driven over it's stock flow. 7 volts definitely isn't out of range. Heck, if you regulated it, there's no reason that you couldn't push 9 volts. It is fed battery voltage. Don't believe me? My Fluke doesn't lie...
I'm saying that the Lightning/Cobra/Mustang MAF can be less accurate because you can't size it to your application. It is fixed. With the MAFia you can effectively vary the size of your MAF to fit your power level. That way you aren't wasting any resolution.
The stock Zetec MAF is just under 2.5" I.D.. Theoretically it should flow way more air than I will ever need. (And more power than most of you guys will need.) To quote...
Originally posted by DrFrankenbarge:
So if we go to the limit with 450 hp worth of air you're looking at around a 2.25" OD tube at 450 f/s (Mach .4). So to give yourself a little breathing room 2.5 should easily flow fine for 450hp.
Now say we are using this kit on a decent 2.5L and say we're making about 275 at the crank. For a velocity of 450 f/s you're looking at about a 1.75" OD tube (say 16 gauge wall).
This isn't snakeoil guys. It's a valid product. There isn't any voodoo going on. All that it is doing is scaling a voltage down. Pretty simple and very effective.
BP
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better off doing it right. a mustang gt maf would probably be great for your application. and with the PRP it can be tuned easily with no "scaling" imo the MAFia is a ricer mod. i myself will be using a lightning maf with the turbo 
Russell
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Ben - This product is not the best solution. The ecu will not heat the wire with more than 5v no matter how much you want to believe it. Try your fluke meter with it plugged into the maf and running. It will be .08 roughly at idle and you will never never never cross 5v. I've pegged enough mafs in the past to know for sure.
You spent all that money on a PRP and raptor. Now you want to save $150 by buying a gimmic that will seriously distort your maf transfer function? Do it right, save the money you will spend on dyno time sorting that out and upgrade the maf. The PRP GIVES you the functions for all the mafs, in preloaded fashion no less.
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I can see where you guys are coming from by sticking with a larger stock MAF. You have a rock solid transfer function. There is no chance of a calculation error. BUT you are still stuck with a fixed power level.
I've gotta say that this still sounds like a valid product. I'm an electronics guy and it just makes sense. The MAF measures the speed of the air going through it by varying the current through the MAF wires to keep a constant temperature. That current is then turned into a voltage which the PCM can understand. Because the PCM is a logic device, it can only understand a 0-5 volt range. The manufacturer produces a MAF that will put out a voltage range that corresponds the the car's designed power range. Through normal data logging you will never see anything over 5 volts. The PCM's power supply rail is fixed and it can't read anything higher. Your MAF could put out 50 volts, and the PCM would only see it's maximum of 5.
I bet that if you connected a voltmeter to the MAF and then ran it over it's stock limits, it would definitely go above 5 volts. That is the only way that products like the Mafia and Mafextender can work. I wish I had some kind of industrial leaf blower to test my theory.
It also makes sense to me because you can set your MAF to the exact power output range that you are shooting for. You just multiply your transfer function/slopes by the adjustment factor.
I'm not trying to be cheap. I'm just looking for more/better options. I just think that it's wrong for people to blow something off as a "ricer mod" before actually looking into it.
This mod is basic math. You are doing a linear conversion with either an op-amp or microcontroller. This isn't a cludged fix.
I'm still temped to give it a try with my current low-boost project. I probably wouldn't go with a commercial product like the MAFia. I'll just build a voltage divider using an op-amp. I'm pretty sure I have a couple TL082's laying around.
BP
Last edited by ButtonPuncher; 04/04/06 10:54 PM.
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Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
OK guys hear me out...
The stock MAF puts out more than 5 volts when driven over it's stock flow. 7 volts definitely isn't out of range. Heck, if you regulated it, there's no reason that you couldn't push 9 volts. It is fed battery voltage. Don't believe me? My Fluke doesn't lie...
I'm saying that the Lightning/Cobra/Mustang MAF can be less accurate because you can't size it to your application. It is fixed. With the MAFia you can effectively vary the size of your MAF to fit your power level. That way you aren't wasting any resolution.
The stock Zetec MAF is just under 2.5" I.D.. Theoretically it should flow way more air than I will ever need. (And more power than most of you guys will need.) To quote...
Originally posted by DrFrankenbarge:
So if we go to the limit with 450 hp worth of air you're looking at around a 2.25" OD tube at 450 f/s (Mach .4). So to give yourself a little breathing room 2.5 should easily flow fine for 450hp.
Now say we are using this kit on a decent 2.5L and say we're making about 275 at the crank. For a velocity of 450 f/s you're looking at about a 1.75" OD tube (say 16 gauge wall).
This isn't snakeoil guys. It's a valid product. There isn't any voodoo going on. All that it is doing is scaling a voltage down. Pretty simple and very effective.
BP
Yeah, except that 12v battery voltage is for the sensor heater elements... NOT the sensing circuitry.
The maf works by heating one element and then sensing the change in temperature of the air passing over the second element...or something like that. It requires a heater a second element that has a changing resistance based on this heat change. This is also why the maf is a 3-wire or 4-wire sensor (depending if common or separate grounds) rather than just a 2-wire sensor.
Combined with all the electronics a 5v reference source is passed through the circuit and the varying resistance causes a voltage drop that the pcm compares with its stored data. The maf is calibrated and that calibration data plugged into the pcm. This is why there are so many different maf part numbers.
Ford makes enough mafs for their different cars that one is bound to have a measuring range that is suitable for what you expect to see on your engine. All the plugs are standardized for a given year or series of years. Just plug in, change the transfer function and away you go.
BTW, your aren't improving the resolution by changing the voltage if the pcm is still looking for the same voltage ranges. It will just approximate the closest value.
If your maf worked on a 0-5v scale but your intermediate circuitry allowed you to sense a voltage change down to the hundreths's column that reflected a change in airflow, THEN your resolution is improved. You have just possibly changed the range by changing the operating voltage range; and THAT would mean that your equipment isn't that precise and so therefore you needed a larger voltage range.
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Combined with all the electronics a 5v reference source is passed through the circuit and the varying resistance causes a voltage drop that the pcm compares with its stored data.
I'm sorry but you're wrong. There is no 5 volt reference. It uses battery voltage. Check out this schematic. It divides the battery voltage across the hot wire and a resistor. All Ford has to do is swap one resistor to change the calibration. Also, if it was limited to 5 volts, I couldn't do this...
I just used my compressed air tank. There you go, 6.522 volts. I also made a movie where it peaked around 7.2 volts. I really can't provide more evidence than that.
Originally posted by warmonger:
BTW, your aren't improving the resolution by changing the voltage if the pcm is still looking for the same voltage ranges. It will just approximate the closest value.
If your maf worked on a 0-5v scale but your intermediate circuitry allowed you to sense a voltage change down to the hundreths's column that reflected a change in airflow, THEN your resolution is improved. You have just possibly changed the range by changing the operating voltage range; and THAT would mean that your equipment isn't that precise and so therefore you needed a larger voltage range.
Sure you're improving resolution! You can increase resolution by either making a smaller MAF look larger or by making a larger MAF look smaller. Let's say that you are using a 90mm Cobra MAF. At your peak horsepower you only generate 3.5volts. You are wasting 1.5volts of resolution. If you scale the 0-3.5volts to 0-5 volts, then recalibrate your PCM for a smaller MAF, your are effectively using the whole MAF's range.
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You do not seem to be getting your head around the fact that the factory MAF (or ANY MAF!) is [B]CALIBRATED[/B] to a specific CFM range to fall within a 5V range. Even if the MAF did output a signal voltage higher the 5V it would be beyond the electronics calibration and be an erratic guesstimate at best.
Hacking the MAF signal within its 5V operational range is not an ideal solution at all. Hacking it outside the calibraion of the electronics is an utter waste of time and money.
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I know that it's calibrated. I've said that multiple times throughout this thread. If you know that calibration you can apply a scaling factor. That is how the MAFia or Mafextender works. The MAF will follow the same curve throughout its entire range. Just because Ford only uses the first 5 volts, doesn't mean that you can't use the next volt or two to expand the range. Yes, there is a limit. It appears to be in the 7 to 7.5volt range. Using an op-amp with a perfectly flat response is a great way to do it. If you don't believe me that this works, and works well, talk to 1turbofocus aka TurboTom on the FocusFanatics forum. BP
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Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
Sure you're improving resolution! You can increase resolution by either making a smaller MAF look larger or by making a larger MAF look smaller. Let's say that you are using a 90mm Cobra MAF. At your peak horsepower you only generate 3.5volts. You are wasting 1.5volts of resolution. If you scale the 0-3.5volts to 0-5 volts, then recalibrate your PCM for a smaller MAF, your are effectively using the whole MAF's range.
Okay, I could be wrong in the way I was phrasing my last post but the 12v source ends up as a 5 volt reference signal for the maf, period. As far as achieving 6.5 volts, okay you proved it is possible but you are using a compressed air nozzle right in the opening! That would never be duplicated in real life, Maybe at 25psi boosted...
Here is why I think this is jacked up and that the marketing campaign for the MAFia has pickled your brain.
I don't agree that you will get more resolution by extending the voltage range in the limited way you are trying to.
It isn't the voltage range that improves your resolution, it is the number of sampling points AND the number of sampling points that you can use. You want to keep the voltage range the same and increase the number of data points to actually increase the resolution. WHat you are doing is increasing the range with higher voltage but not increasing the number of data points. Isn't that the opposite?
Here's and example:
By increasing the voltage range then scaling it back down you are increasing the measurable range at a DECREASE in MAF resolution because you are now using the same 30 points to represent and even larger range. Oh, I forgot to mention there are only 30 data points that the pcm can use; whether on 5 volts or on 7volt you still get 30 data points.
Where do you want the increase in resolution? Down low where precise fuel metering is important or up high? Fully half of the data points for transfer function are used to describe the curve in the low range anyway and that is all below 2-3 volts. Oh, and you haven't even answered the question as to whether or not you truly NEED increased resolution or rather an increased range.
Is that what you need, or do you just want your MAF system capable of reading more airflow than it is now?
I will tell you that the stock SVT maf is capable of reading 700kg/hour of airflow and that is enough for well over 300 crank horsepower. You mentioned 270 crank, well there you go. More resolution isn't required because the airflow volume is large at higher rpm and since it is WOT you only need a few data points to keep the A/F on target.
Additionally, you are going from 5-7 volts where you don't even know what the airflow/voltage curve looks like above 5.5volts as your compressed air into a small hole might indicate! To get enough flow volume through the whole maf that it will cause the sampling tube to see that kind of pressure and flow that equals what you just put into it with your compressor nozzle would be mind boggling; and that only gave you 6.5v. These functions aren't linear as you probably know, so does another volt mean another 100cfm or does it mean 1000cfm?
Anyway, no matter what you say you are still
- extending the range of the maf into uncalibrated territory
- rescaling the extended range back down into the pcm 5v expected range with the same 30 sampling points, and thereby reducing resolution at the expense of increased range
- making for a lot of expenses on the dyno as you try to figure out just what/how you will calibrate this equipment to make it work
Trust me, I spent big $ getting a pro-m into calibration and after all that money a normal lightning maf cost less and required less tuning to get it into calibration.
So I just don't get it.
But go ahead and do this and prove to us it works as I am curious how it will benefit you.
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This whole thread is amazing... I mean there's really no point in iterating what everyone has already stated to point out why this is a stupid idea... I just couldn't help myself from posting in here and stating... freaking... retarded.
Because if you need that much airflow wouldn't you like a nice bigger opening lightning maf... which by the way you can find on ebay all the time for not much money... for most likely less than 160 bucks. Of course if you just stick an 80mm maf in between tubing that's a 1/2" smaller in diameter then you're just being silly anyway.
Anyway...I need to leave this thread.. I'm getting dumber by the second.
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I sat a read through this whole post and the only thing i have come up with is not many of you are any smarter about tuning then you were 4 years ago
Ill tell you why the lightning isnt a good choise or bad choise for that matter its to BIG, bigger isnt allways better it also is hard to mount with its pissy 4 bolt mounting and will leak if you try to do it blowthrough with any good boost
I MAF that is to big (housing size) can and will give poor signal
I have used the MAFia on well over 50 Zetec engines and a few Mustangs on the Focus from 250HP to over 700HP with NO issues at all, The only people that dont seem to like it is mostly SCT tuners and thats because they dont understand it and its simplicity
Less accurate Questionable? On a Focus or Contour the signal is MUCH cleaner with a proper sized MAF housing (3 inch is what i like) on a Mustang where you have more qubic inches there fine
Tom
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warmonger , It has become clear to me that you and many others DONT understand how the MAFia works
The MAFia DOES NOT change the stock electronics "range" it still will be limited to .001 to 4.999 Volts
It also DOES NOT change the sampling points
This is a crude way to say how it works but let me try it this way and maybe many can understand it better if you have say 3.000 Volts with the MAFia set to say 4 setting this would be -40% OFF the 3.000 Volts = 1.700 Volts that now goes to the ECU this same -40% works through out the entire .001 to 4.999 range If you are on setting 4 , There is ways to correct for this in ANY tune because i have done it with the
Diablo ( has all the math done where you just hit the "4" setting and it calculates it all in the tuning software
Sniper and SCT can be done 1 of 2 ways either by changing the Maf Transfer Functions or by the High/Low slopes for the injectors
This is VERY simple VERY accurate devise to use there is NOTHING on the market that will replace the ease of use or cost of your meter maxing out
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Less accurate Questionable? On a Focus or Contour the signal is MUCH cleaner with a proper sized MAF housing (3 inch is what i like) on a Mustang where you have more qubic inches there fine
Tom
Isn't the older lightning 80mm? or is that a mustang GT MAF? I can't remember... but that's what I was planning on using on my contour... which is a little bigger than 3".
Anyway.. when I say lightning MAF I'm referring to the 80mm one.
I know my car ran fine w/ a 75mm Pro-M MAF once I had the transfer function right.. don't see an 80mm causing any problems.
And at least you said not many of us are smarter about tuning... since I knew nothing about it a couple years ago i'm much more knowledgable now :-P
04 Subaru WRX "Eurosport bling bling fast and furious tokyo drift"
"They have diarrhea of the mouth, and constipation of thought"
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
warmonger , It has become clear to me that you and many others DONT understand how the MAFia works
The MAFia DOES NOT change the stock electronics "range" it still will be limited to .001 to 4.999 Volts
It also DOES NOT change the sampling points
This is a crude way to say how it works but let me try it this way and maybe many can understand it better if you have say 3.000 Volts with the MAFia set to say 4 setting this would be -40% OFF the 3.000 Volts = 1.700 Volts that now goes to the ECU this same -40% works through out the entire .001 to 4.999 range If you are on setting 4 , There is ways to correct for this in ANY tune because i have done it with the
Diablo ( has all the math done where you just hit the "4" setting and it calculates it all in the tuning software
Sniper and SCT can be done 1 of 2 ways either by changing the Maf Transfer Functions or by the High/Low slopes for the injectors
This is VERY simple VERY accurate devise to use there is NOTHING on the market that will replace the ease of use or cost of your meter maxing out
Tom
Well that is sort of a true statement, I DON'T fully understand how it works and I don't understand why it was invented in the first place for a street/strip car with all the other options out there.
I'm going to assume you weren't talking to me when you implied we are stuck in the stone age about car tuning and in general don't know what we are talking about. 
You act like we haven't figured out how to tune a contour, or a turbo duratec contour. We DO know how and we actually have an affordable, VERY MODERN method now in the SCT chip/tuning kit or PRPackage.
You have to admit that sizing the correct maf for the correct expected airflow range is the proper way to do it, wouldn't you say? I'll grant you there must be specific cases where using a MAFia would be easy and just what the doctor ordered, but so far there isn't a situation here that isn't easily solved by either a chip, flash, SAFC, eManage, another MAF, or combination. Some of these are dirt cheap.
There definitely is such a thing as too big of a MAF for the job, but proper sizing and then tuning fixes that. Having plenty of data points in the area you want to increase your sensor resolution will help in difficult tuning with a very large maf. But, ONLY in the case of a very small engine with a very high pressure ratio could I see a case where a larger MAF is too big. For the boosted 2.5/3L engines the 80mm lightning/cobra mafs are fairly easy and straightforward to tune and offer plenty of low-rpm resolution as well as the obviously larger sampling range for higher airflows. Hell, this is Fords EEC-V, the thing will practically tune itself if you get the MAF data points figured out and entered properly!!
So going back to the MAFia, there are other products that already do what you have stated. I made most of my arguments based off of Buttonpuncher's "selling points" so if there is any misunderstanding then that is why.
However, I see no need to use MAF trickery of any kind when you can get a good custom tune with a differnt MAF and Injectors of your choice for less than $500 total.
If you are a complete freak you can get the PRP and Xcal2 flashing device for around $600. Add to that $150-$250 for a lightning MAF AND injectors...and you are into complete, total engine control for less than $1000. And I better mention you can use this setup to tune any level of power you want assuming you sized your maf and injectors right, with at least 400 wHP with stock lightning hardware, more with bigger injectors.
As far as just tuning the engine via just the MAF, the GReddy eManage is by far the most superior MAF scaling product that I have seen and used!
It can be used with or without a laptop with 6 potentiometers to set various parts of the airflow range, such as the -40% you talked about or you can hook up the laptop and get 16x16 aiflow map with even greater rescaling ability.
If you want a global change of say 20%, it has a multiplier section as if you wanted to change the whole curve that way. You just punch in the factor of 0.80 and it reduces fuel by 20% less.
If you want more fuel you can adjust go with a ratio greater than 1.0 or use the 16x16 map for MAF voltage vs. several variables (like boost pressure, throttle position,etc). If you have a hole, you can add fuel at specific rpms versus specific boost pressure, tps, maf, etc. That is an awesome ability! Using the GReddy boost sensor you can leave the system completely stock and only add fuel when the boost starts to climb, giving you stock driveability under normal circumstances. You can also datalog every sensor hookup that it has along with sensor outputs that you can save to graph later. This can be combined with engine tuning software to dial in your hardware in the same way, by having a 40% reduction in MAF voltage you can adjust your MAF points in teh software and not have to change the MAF right away...if that is what you really wanted to do.
And you can get it in the $200s nowadays. It can really stretch the usefull range on your maf with these methods. Not to mention that for some cars it can do timing adjustments too.
So no, I can't imagine the MAFia doing more with less.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
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Ben ---'96 Contour GL * Zetec ATX * Tan on Black steelies---
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There was a Focus guy who just put his stock MAF element into a 3" exhaust pipe. Used the SCT to figure out the MAF transfer function. Punched everything into the program and it was good to go.
That also would be cheaper than a new MAF, though I don't know if you could do more than 250whp like that. I've only heard of a stock MAF doing around 180whp under 5v.
2000 Rio Red I4 Cougar
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warmonger I can see your mind is still closed to anything new , you were one of the ones years ago also saying that 42lb injectors were to big for the Zetec and now there the STD to use
QUOTE"There definitely is such a thing as too big of a MAF for the job, but proper sizing and then tuning fixes that."
****Tuning WONT fix a MAF that is to big if the MAF is to big you will get poor resolution at low RPM and that cannot be fixed with ANY tuning, Changing data points to that area only shows and goes to the statement about still not understanding tuning yet , will it work yes it MIGHT mask the issue is it the PROPER way to do it NO , if you have to move your data points something is wrong
QUOTE "So going back to the MAFia, there are other products that already do what you have stated. "
****Will you show me one that cost less than 150.00 like the MAFia , That is plug and play in less than 30 Sec THERE ISNT ONE
QUOTE " However, I see no need to use MAF trickery "
****There is NO trickery to it, Again you still dont unsderstand or in you case care to understand, To those that do this is the cheapest , easiest , devise to use when going FI it uses your stock MAF electronics so all your sampling points are where they should be, gives you enough range to make from 150 TO 700HP on a Zetec keeps you from having to use LARGE BULKY CRAPPY looking 80MM 4 bolt flange type MAF housings that have poor low end resolution
The SCT PRP is the best tuning tool on the market for those wanting total controle over there cars tuning , the MAFia works well with it and with the cost of both at only 790.00 where can or what can you buy that will come close to what those 2 pieces can do
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
warmonger I can see your mind is still closed to anything new , you were one of the ones years ago also saying that 42lb injectors were to big for the Zetec and now there the STD to use
QUOTE"There definitely is such a thing as too big of a MAF for the job, but proper sizing and then tuning fixes that."
****Tuning WONT fix a MAF that is to big if the MAF is to big you will get poor resolution at low RPM and that cannot be fixed with ANY tuning, Changing data points to that area only shows and goes to the statement about still not understanding tuning yet , will it work yes it MIGHT mask the issue is it the PROPER way to do it NO , if you have to move your data points something is wrong
QUOTE "So going back to the MAFia, there are other products that already do what you have stated. "
****Will you show me one that cost less than 150.00 like the MAFia , That is plug and play in less than 30 Sec THERE ISNT ONE
QUOTE " However, I see no need to use MAF trickery "
****There is NO trickery to it, Again you still dont unsderstand or in you case care to understand, To those that do this is the cheapest , easiest , devise to use when going FI it uses your stock MAF electronics so all your sampling points are where they should be, gives you enough range to make from 150 TO 700HP on a Zetec keeps you from having to use LARGE BULKY CRAPPY looking 80MM 4 bolt flange type MAF housings that have poor low end resolution
The SCT PRP is the best tuning tool on the market for those wanting total controle over there cars tuning , the MAFia works well with it and with the cost of both at only 790.00 where can or what can you buy that will come close to what those 2 pieces can do
Tom
Well you are again right about one thing and oh so wrong in other areas. I may have had misconceptions years ago but I never stopped learning and come a long way with that. For you to come out of the blue trying to insult me just because I don't agree with your product shows who you really are. You are a real piece of work. You read insult even when none was there abd even when I agree that there may be situations where the MAFia would work out well? Why the attitude?
And on top of that, why come here and tell us how wrong and how old school we are tuning our own cars?
You've been doing your thing on friggin zetecs with hack tuning for years and you say I'M stuck in the past? YOu go ahead and continue with your hack tuning Bud because I could fugging care less what you do and why. However don't come on here and tell me I don't know how to tune a duratec or duratec turbo. If you have a product you support, then explain why and let us make up our minds based on our own thinking and the merrits of your arguments.
This isn't one of those forums where everyone is 18 years old and on your tip because you made big power in a Focus. Around here we evaluate all options and debate those options academically. Just because I or another member don't find the option all that great doesn't mean that we won't include it as an option or that others will agree with us. We give equal time to everyone if they argue intelligently and even moderatley respectably in their manners.
As far as experience with different tuning methods go, I've done quite a few. In fact, I've tried almost all the different ways and learned from experience. Excuse me if I don't feel like wasting another $150 on another POS item that will cause me to have to spend more money on other mods just to make it work to its full ability!@!#$%!
You can all go join the MAFia for all I care becuase it is your car and your money. I don't have to like it and I also don't deserve insults for having my own opinion !!
But since you opened up a can of worms, you reap what you sow "Mr. Blow through MAF is a good idea with hacked ECMs" and now MAFia's.
Like I said, an eManage does significantly more and costs barely a few dollars more. If it comes to it, an APEXi SAFC is the very best bang for the buck product on the market that can scale the MAFs output in every way that the MAFia is descriped to do, albeit without being paired with Diablos software. But then that is the marketing scheme now isn't it?? You just show how pliant your mind is and how much a willing victim of mass marketing you are if you dont' evaluate and question your options. 
If you are worried about the cost of $100 bucks then you shouldn't be modding your car. And needing to pair the MAFia up with Diablo software for best results? How is that cheap or even smarter than any average chip?
In fact, I don't have any stock with Diablo or SCT or GReddy so I don't have any bias. ON the other hand I have spent a lot of time and money with a Diablo Chip, an EMANAGE, PRO-M and their mafs, adjustible fuel pressure, differnt mafs and injectors, cut mafs, worked with SAFC on other cars, and finally the SCT Xcal2 and software.
In the light of that experience I find the SCT PRP package to be the best option because it allows the user to come as close to OEM tuning as possible should he/she choose to put in the effort and time to learn it.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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The APEXi SAFC wont work with any type of good proper tuning , talking about a POS at least the MAFia will work with ANY tuning on the market Diablo , Sniper , SCT QUOTE "We give equal time to everyone if they argue intelligently and even moderatley respectably in their manners." Around here we evaluate all options and debate those options academically." ****Your kidding right, You are so close minded still you would over look a good part like the MAFia with out even giving it a chance, this guy posted and did all he could to ask questions and find out what he could and get opinions , you have yet to give a intelligent reason why this is a "POS other than your onionons with no bases to back it up, Just when is it you start to " evaluate all options and debate those options academically." No this one is my favorite QUOTE" But since you opened up a can of worms, you reap what you sow "Mr. Blow through MAF is a good idea with hacked ECMs" and now MAFia's. " ****What is hacked about the ECM i use and what is wrong with A blowthrough , THIS SHOULD BE INTERESTING  QUOTE "And needing to pair the MAFia up with Diablo software for best results? " ****Diablo sais this because in the Diablo software if you use the MAFia all you have to do to make all the changes is click on the wizard then hit the number you have the MAFia set on and it does all the changes in the software needed to best use the MAFia instead of having to go and change both the High and Low injector slopes , it will work just as well with the SCT or Sniper software because i use them both with the MAFia I dont mind debating anything and i have the knowledge first hand with this product to answer questions, BUT i have delt with you in the past and anything that isnt your idea or you gave up on is junk or a POS , you wont debate and you shure cannot back up your opinions academically because you talking out your butt with out ever using one or trying one ,Those that want more info about a VERY good way to extend the use of your MAF you may email me at hpdyno@aol.com im more than willing to help out Now lets see how your going to back up the "hack" statement Tom
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You see although you took this to extremes with starting the insults first, THIS IS A semi-intelligent debate, without the manners. Just look back at the thread and the posts and you can see how it was debate then turned ugly when you reared your head. As far as this product and your opinion, you like it, use it. You say I have to try it to have an opinion about it? That's just plain foolish. It's called shopping and product education BEFORE you spend your money!! So I can look at a GEO METRO and decide that it is a cheap mode of transportation, probably light weight with little crash protection but with the advantage of fuel economy. Does that mean that I have to go buy one and get into a wreck before I can intelligently talk about it? Like I said, you are a real piece of work. You are going to insult me and say that I won't listen to anyone when there is YEARs of proof in the archives to where I have had opinions and was WRONG, but through debate and education I have changed my views. I'll even fall on my sword here and tell you one area. I remember when I thought it was a good idea to try and get a MAF sized for different injectors and install the two together. BOY was I foolish and it was PA3L (something like that), I think Rara chimed in too, that argued and educated me as to why it was wrong. WHen I started researching it they were right and I was wrong. But I didn't sit there sorry for myself, I went on learning until I knew how the system worked. THen I had experience with HACK tuning like the SAFC, eManage, etc, and managed to realize where those products are a benefit but NOT the right answer. The MAFia is another variation on the theme. Just so you understand, I never wanted a fight with you over this but YOU came here and began the insults. Sorry if I overreacted but YOU pushed the buttons. You don't like what I say then fine, say so. I feel very confident that the MAFia is an example of your hack tuning because it is a bandaid fix for an improperly sized MAF. In a situation where there is no other alternative and another MAF size or appropriate MAF isn't available, well you use what you've got. To caveat that, if you are always designing yourself into a corner where you need to make compromises like that such as blow through mafs versus draw through, maf scaling devices, and extra high fuel pressure, then you should rethink your projects. So as I said, go and use your MAFia.  I really don't mind but don't come on insulting me because I don't agree. Your record of arguing and actually admitting you were ever wrong has been pretty slim....to none. In fact, I don't remember you EVER being conviced of anything other than your own opinions and yet you come here and accuse me of what appears to be your own same flaw. So here's to a little humility.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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BTW guys, it's MAF.ia NOT MAFia 
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Pig headed turbo tom vs. pig headed turbo tom, weres the popcorn smiley thing
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You keep bringing up my hack tuning and my hack blowthrough you keep avoiding the questions about the comments YOU are making and wont answer them
Then you say "maf scaling devices, and extra high fuel pressure" Who said anything about doing things this way , I sure dont tune that way, You dont have a clue as of yet what your talking about with the MAF.ia so how can you give an informed decision, You keep compairing it to an AFC controler and you couldnt be further from the truith but you have avoided all my questions so far so i dont see you addressing any of these
You like to call names "Mr.Blowthrough hack tuner" when you dont understand things just lake in the past your as pigheaded as you ever were so dont go calling the kettle black
Please address why you think im a hack tuner and what you dont like about a blowthrough other than you must not be able to get one to work
Tom
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Let me see if I can recap. It will scale the entire range of the maf down by lets say 40%. So at an idle of .08, the ECU will see .048. At WOT, instead of 5v the ECU will see 3v. Is this correct? So you would need a Diablo or SCT to scale the tranfer function down for better resolution. IIRC the OEM functions usually only go down to .05 which leaves no room for interpolation.
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I haven't been keeping up with Tom since he left Focaljet, but while he started with draw thru maf setups he eventually switched to blow thru and now prefers tuning the Zetec that way. Is that right Tom?
2000 Rio Red I4 Cougar
200whp & 210wtq at 9psi
254whp & 276wtq with NX 35shot
WRX TD04 Turbo, Cut Short Shifter, Strut Tower Bar, 17" ZN Wheels, Roush Springs, Starion Intercooler, NX 35 shot, HKS SS BOV, Full 3" exhaust,StreetFlight Chip
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Originally posted by Keyser:
Let me see if I can recap. It will scale the entire range of the maf down by lets say 40%. So at an idle of .08, the ECU will see .048. At WOT, instead of 5v the ECU will see 3v. Is this correct? So you would need a Diablo or SCT to scale the tranfer function down for better resolution. IIRC the OEM functions usually only go down to .05 which leaves no room for interpolation.
Keyser in most cases if you MAF is going hit 5 volts under WOT you will see much higher low load voltage than .8 from what i have seen you will be in the 1.2 to 1.6 range then bringing that down by 40% puts you right in the range, Also keep in mind that there is 7 settings so if you are say hitting 5 volts at 5800 and only need slightly more range than set it to say 2 = 20%
There is a few ways to make the needed changes , Yes you could change the MTF and do it that way the MAF will read all the way down to .005 , I know this because i have to run 96lb injectors in my Zetec and it idles and drives like a new Zetec
The best way i have found to work with the MAF.ia is to get the car running so it idles and part throttle corectly then go in and change the Load size of 1 Cyl, High/Low injector slopes by what ever setting you have the MAF.ia set to in most cases it will start right up and you will just have very small corrections to make this way your correction for load and fuel is all set and ready to go
Yes all my kits now are blowthrough its the only way to go
Tom
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Tom,
For someone who has been off and on this board just a few times you seem to think you know an awefull lot about me. I really think you've got me all wrong too but hey, your choice I guess. I suppose all the attention I've garnered from you should flatter me....but it doesn't.
Oh, Use the search function. It should answer all your questions of me or about me or my position. Otherwise I'm done with you. I got angry and stooped to your level once but I've regained my composure; no more.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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So I guess I didn't go down the list and fully explain why I thought the MAFia was no better than just another MAF scaling device. My statement was incomplete; it is a "scaling device" that Diablo just went and did some of the homework on before hand so that you have some idea of how to select the settings and start tuning with it. This device seems similar to, but a bit more refined than say an SAFC, with maybe a nicer package, th at has some presets that help you get it into the ballpark faster(maybe). Will it save you money though? It is a toss-up to me whether it will decrease the time required to tune and whether it will offset the cost of the device. No matter how you slice it, it is still altering the MAF signal before it goes into the PCM and then you still have to sit there and screw with the PCM values to get the thing to work. How is this so much different than just getting a differen't MAF for the car except that now you are using their guidelines to try to get it tuned in? Not to mention that the statements I made earlier about this method actually decreasing the MAFs effective measuring resolution are still valid, and probably making it harder to tune idle/cruise in the process. I fully agree that maf scaling devices are sometimes necessary and if you read back several pages I stated that early on....in the case where you could not get a properly sized factory MAF then I would use something like this. It really seems to me that Diablo was targeting the competition from a PRO-M like setup and this component paired with a factory MAF could do the same thing. I personally can NOT see how this is superior to getting a Factory calibrated MAF with the correct airflow range and installing it with the downloaded factory MAF transfer function. BUt that's right, that is so old school isn't it? With a scaling device you loose some ability to keep the idle voltage ranges where they were designed and you have to compensate for that by adjusting the MAFia settings, the pcm transfer function, injector slopes, basically a whole crap load of variables! That method, as opposed to just plugging in 30 datapoints for a new factory MAF or even a PRO-M if they publish the data (Which the DO!) and you can immediately fire the car up and it will idle. Take it on a short drive and it learns how far off the commanded Lambda values the system really is, then it just trims the fuel until those values are reached. At this point with a wideband you make gradual progressive runs to verify that it is keeping the air fuel in the correct range. Check fuel trims at key rpm points to see if your transfer function is off substantially, then adjust if necessary. Unless you punched in the values wrong or your O2 sensors are bad, then it will be right close to the target air fuel. If you want to adjust your air fuel, and your fuel trims are all withing +/-10% then and all you have to do is adjust your commanded lambda values until you obtain the desired air/fuel ratio. A very simple process really. This method takes no more than an hour or two and requires only a properly sized MAF and injectors along with the flashing/tuning software of your choice like: SCT, TWeecer, Diablo, etc. -Idle quality is near perfect or not different than factory -Cruise driveability is completely stock -WOT air fuel safe and within the target range and finally, this method yields the following advantages: -Gas mileage city/highway is usually improved on near stock applications, or only slightly lower than stock with high power applications(on my 3L turbo it was 9% lower than a stock 2.5L engine,this with over twice the stock horsepower to the wheels) -the ability to raise the boost up and down with no further tuning required. -No additional electronics required on the engine, nothing but factory hardware to affect reliability. -Save money through reduced hardware and tuning costs. This is why I don't understand how you can say/imply that this product is the "cutting edge" of tuning while "we" tuning with properly sized factory hardware are in the past. Except in rare cases, the MAF-ia (and other maf scaling devices) is not the most desirable method and IS what I call 'hack-tuning...to be used only in an emergency' type of device or as a crutch when you don't know how to properly size your maf and injectors. So before you get all mad, realize I'm saying there are situations where this may present the best solution and in that case would NOT be hack tuning but the only proper method, and I will even go further and say that YOU would probably know the difference and have only used it in situations where it was necessaryHopefully someone else knowledgeable in tuning can come on and share their feelings on it too so that people can see all viewpoints. BTW, from the Diablosport website, a little more proof that this is actually more work than proper MAF/injecor sizing and tuning and IMHO should only be used if you have no properly sized MAF available: Originally posted by Diablosport:
Tuning Notes
There are many factors that may affect your tuning. If you apply the correction ratio and the car does not run properly, you may have to modify the correction factor to get the desired results. Here are a few things to keep in mind.
1. When you do the original tune without the MAFia, reset the keep alive memory. Tune the car just like you normally would. Tune Wide Open Throttle as well, once you see 4.9 volts on your mass air flow meter, stop the pull. Your long terms will stay 0 until you turn the adaptive back on.
2. Load should be between 15-20 %.
3. Check your fuel trims and loads before the installation of the MAFia. Write them down.
Install the MAFia (apply correction factor to tune) and check them again
If your fuel trims are more negative and the load is larger, then try reducing the correction factor and reapply the new correction factor to your original tune.
If your fuel trims are more positive and the load is smaller, then try increasing the correction factor and reapply the new correction factor to your original tune.
4. Some vehicles may develop a high or erratic idle when the mafia is used on it�s higher settings. Lowering the target mass air voltages in the functions can be useful when trying to eliminate idle problems. Reduce the right hand side of the Target Mass Air Functions by the same correction factor as the MAFia setting you are using.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Good read with my morning coffee Let's use my car for an example, shall we? I have a Lightning 90mm MAF and #36 inectors and am only running 3.5psi on my 3L. With TurboTom's theory, I should be running like crap. That could not be farther from the truth. I agree with Warmonger about how easy tuning these cars with the SCT software is. 90mm is too big? Then use a Ford 80mm or a GT's 7Xmm and start out with the MTF from SCT and dial the mofo in. No hack tuning needed when OEM MAF can be picked up for peanuts new or next to new. Why is it that most if not all of the Foci owners using SCT soft/hardware that I've seen are all going to draw through setups because of bad idle issues with blow through setups? Could it be because you loose anywhere between 20-30% resolution on the same MAF when used in a blow through setup vs a draw through? With that said... TurboTom, you sound like you do have a ton of tuning under your belt and I can respect that you have found a method of tuning that you can make work. Are you that saying your way is the absolute best method for good streetability and peak power?
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone 
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Let me correct some misinformation you stated , you still dont seem to understand or want to understand how it truely works you want to only see it as a "hack" tuning devise and i dont feel it is
QUOTE"you still have to sit there and screw with the PCM values to get the thing to work. "
****Granted SOME changes need to be made in the tuning to use the MAFia BUT if you change to anything buy the stock MAF all the same things need to be changed in the software anyway, As for what Diablo posted on there site those are WORST CASE problems and i have never had to go to that extreme yet with about 50 used
QUOTE "I personally can NOT see how this is superior to getting a Factory calibrated MAF with the correct airflow range and installing it with the downloaded factory MAF transfer function."
****Let me tell you me reasons why. I have tryed about every MAF out there in my 3 inch blowthrough tubes and some before when i had drawthrough and it was either the MAF was to small and i would hit 4.9V at about 5500 to 6000 or it was to big and i would only get to about 3.6 volts at 6200 on a FI Zetec. The Lightning is WAY to big and bulky to use and the Cobra is the same way and still dealing with the 4 bolt flanges. The Pro-M was a useable choise before they went out of buisness BUT then if you wanted more power you would have to send it back to Pro-M spend another 125.00 to get it Recal. With the MAFia you just turn it to a Diff setting and your back in buisness
QUOTE:With a scaling device you loose some ability to keep the idle voltage ranges where they were designed and you have to compensate for that by adjusting the MAFia settings, the pcm transfer function, injector slopes, basically a whole crap load of variables!"
****This just is not the truith low load idle settings are PERFECT Crap i have 96lb injectors a 3 inch tube stock Focus MAF electronics blowthrough and my Zetec idles like a new Zetec and still has the range to make 734HP , If what you say is true please explain why mine works so well?
With the MAFia you dont have to go in and change NAY data points you keep what Ford intended for that car so as you said the QUOTE
-Idle quality is near perfect or not different than factory
-Cruise driveability is completely stock
-WOT air fuel safe and within the target range
-Gas mileage city/highway is usually improved on near stock applications,
-the ability to raise the boost up and down with no further tuning required.
-No additional electronics required on the engine, nothing but factory hardware to affect reliability.
-Save money through reduced hardware and tuning costs.
*****All stay the same is if you did it your way with the exception of i have far more adjustability as to what my range can be , wont need another MAF electronics as i go up in power and peg the one that is now used because if it is properly sized you should be in the mid 4.5 range and not a lot of room left , dont have to deal with bulky LARGE MAF housings because to install the electronics in a small tune lowers the range to much
You have given your opinions as to why you dont like it BUT you havent given any hard facts why not to
Im still wainting for you to answer your slanderous Mr, Blowthrough hack tuner comment ?
Tom
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Question - being that the actual air flow volume is being reduced to the PCM, how much of an effect does it have on the load calculations?
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Let me correct some misinformation you stated , you still dont seem to understand or want to understand how it truely works you want to only see it as a "hack" tuning devise and i dont feel it is
.....
C'mon man, I granted you that it has it's uses, but it's a simple device. It ain't rocket science.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Originally posted by Keyser:
Question - being that the actual air flow volume is being reduced to the PCM, how much of an effect does it have on the load calculations?
As anything having to do with the MAF the load also needs to be scailed by what ever setting you choose this puts everything back in check where it should be
Tom
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So you can't just throw one of these on a car and call it good, you still need to have it tuned. I just want to make sure that others reading this don't see the Maf.ia as the complete tuning package.
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Originally posted by Keyser:
Question - being that the actual air flow volume is being reduced to the PCM, how much of an effect does it have on the load calculations?
As anything having to do with the MAF the load also needs to be scailed by what ever setting you choose this puts everything back in check where it should be
Tom
Originally posted by Keyser:
So you can't just throw one of these on a car and call it good, you still need to have it tuned. I just want to make sure that others reading this don't see the Maf.ia as the complete tuning package.
DING DING DING
~~~
Hack the MAF voltage in any way and it creates multiple errors in the load calculations. Nearly everything in the PCM is based on the load calcualtions. This exponentially corrupts the data used in both adaptive and WOT fuel calculations, shift points and pressure, et cetera.
No matter how you want to slice it or pretty it up with fancy words nothing changes this obvious fact. Some of these petty statements to the contrary are quite amusing. Typical hack tuner ignorance and mentality. Nothing beats tuning properly. (when available) Period.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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You mean "hack" as in using a 80 or 90MM MAF housing that has poor resonance crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough and couplers that cost you 2 times the money because you need odd couplers to connect the 3.25 to a 2.5 pipe and 3.5 to 2.5 , thats just insane to tell anyone or recomend that they be used
It amazes me that some can run there mouth with slander and yet have a hard time backing it up with anything
Yes like i said i have done FI on a Zetec both ways and the load calculations at 300HP and 6200RPM were with in .010 of each other so how is this "hack tuning" you guys keep saying it but have yet to back that up either
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough
FWIW, all of us ADC turbo guys have draw through MAF's.
Jim Hahn
1996 T-Red Contour SE Reborn 4/6/04
3.0L swap and Arizona Dyno Chip Turbo Kit
364 whp, 410 wtq @ 4,700 rpm
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Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough
FWIW, all of us ADC turbo guys have draw through MAF's.
and i too will be going that route with my homemade setup
draw through 90mm lightning maf
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
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Originally posted by Russell-3L:
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough
FWIW, all of us ADC turbo guys have draw through MAF's.
and i too will be going that route with my homemade setup
draw through 90mm lightning maf
Again the perfect point why you guys need to step up to whats new in the world
Russell, whay would you do a far to large 90MM drawthrough when you could have a properly sized 3 inch that proberly is the size of your inlet piping , would you follow the rest when they jumped off the bridge also , why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
You mean "hack" as in using a 80 or 90MM MAF housing that has poor resonance crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough and couplers that cost you 2 times the money because you need odd couplers to connect the 3.25 to a 2.5 pipe and 3.5 to 2.5 , thats just insane to tell anyone or recomend that they be used
It amazes me that some can run there mouth with slander and yet have a hard time backing it up with anything
Yes like i said i have done FI on a Zetec both ways and the load calculations at 300HP and 6200RPM were with in .010 of each other so how is this "hack tuning" you guys keep saying it but have yet to back that up either
Tom
Well, FWIW, those MAF's were designed for draw-through configuration and they work well in that config. If you've got to do a blow through then do it but that is what comes with the territory. BTW an adapter plate of sheet metal works beautifully on a large diameter MAF to filter connections and couplers for the pipes.
We never have the same issues on the duratecs that you are describing.
On another note, what do you know about resonance in the MAF? Have you done some measurements or calculations on it???
As far as backing up the hack-tuning comment, it is a matter of opinion; and the standard by which we are measuring that opinion is based upon a stock air and fuel measurement system with stock-like fuel delivery and driveability. As for me:
Anything that reduces one of these variables to operate in condition less effective than what the designers intended when there are other options available would be a hacked method. Rising rate FPR's were a method but considered hack tuning today. At the time they worked. We have it much better now.
So anyway, you stated you didn't feel it was a hack method and therefore it is just a difference of opinion, no harm there.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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Quote:
why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
It's been a long time since I've touched any tuning software Tom but I never had any of the above issues. My reading on the ECU's were just fine. Blow through can be just as good as a draw through, but like you said, you have to know what you are doing. I'm not sure where it is a 'proven' fact or who proved it, but blow through can be as good as draw and in some cases better. I don't know if I would say proven better in every case.
2001 Lincoln LS8
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Russell, whay would you do a far to large 90MM drawthrough when you could have a properly sized 3 inch that proberly is the size of your inlet piping , would you follow the rest when they jumped off the bridge also , why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
Tom
several reasons.
i had the 90mm MAF for a while on a N/A 3L with an ATX, then on the same motor with a MTX. i purchased it then because i had F/I in my future and wanted to be prepared. overkill for a N/A 3L, yes. ill even admit my intake plumbing looked like @ss and was all ghetto-rigged like a 16 yr old ricer would do. i drove a good 10-12K using that MAF, and had ZERO stalling or idle issues. not a single one!
now as for the setup im planning. the maf will be connected directly to the air filter, and be located in the fenderwell to draw in fresh cool air. it will then be plumbed to the inlet of the turbo where it will then go through a water-air intercooler before entering the engine. the lightning MAF should work beautifully with the setup im planning, look good and work flawlessly. i will be pushing 10-12 PSI on an oval port 3L and should be making decent numbers. and i will still have a little more headroom if i want to make a bit more power.
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
MTX75 w/ Homebrew Zetec FD and Torsen Complete
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3.0L will work better with 90MM MAF VS the 2.0 Zetec but if you do your setup blow through you will see much better driveability and throttle responce
Tom
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Tom,
Why do you think he will see better driveability and throttle response?
The draw through on the V6 with the right function entered in the PCM has literally perfect throttle response! From throttle tip-in, part throttle, or transition to full throttle it is as responsive as a stock 2.5L SVT. The only issue might be when you let off of a full throttle run and you have a blow-off valve, you will go rich momentarily but that doesn't hurt anything.
Ask an independent person who did actually test drove my turbo car looking at driveability and throttle response before purchasing the car.
Ask Keyser who's tuned a bunch of them how good it comes out when properly tuned.
I won't speak for the zetec, so maybe it works for that beast; but for the duratec the blow thru will introduce far more issues than it cures and is not needed at all.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
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'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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I'll chime in here.
I am driving a 3L Turbo, with a draw thru setup (said car, above)
The throttle response is nearly INSTANT. as good or better than the stock SVT I sold the same day I bought this one.
Acceleration, transistion, tip-in... its all fluid and without hesitation. You just have to know what you are doing.
My mother makes all of her turkey sandwiches (the day after thanksgiving) by carving the turkey using a straight-edged blade. Why, do you ask? Well.. she started using a serated blade (the preferred method , providing accurate repeatable results) because when she FIRST started carving it, she had never carved a piece of meat in her life and manhandled the thing until it was mashed and she was frustrated. she dropped the blade, grabbed a straight-blade and then tried again using my father to help her (He showed her the proper technique) and using that technique she was able to CARVE A TURKEY WITH A STRAIGHT BLADE.
Does this mean that the straight blade knife is a better solution to carving a turkey than a PROVEN method like the serated blade? Just because she got "nice" results with it? No.. It means that she got fed up with the other method and tryed something NOT normally used and was able to get it to work, because of superior TECHNIQUE.
What I am saying is this: The MAF.ia may work WONDERS.. you may be able to get the car PERFECT WITH IT. it may drive like a dream.. but you're still making the car with a straight-edge blade... just because YOU can get it to work doesn't speak ANYTHING for the apparatus.. it speaks well for YOUR ability to program, or get it to work. You must be VERY familiar with it and the car to do so. It still doesn't change that the other method ISN'T BAD. You just decided to learn on something else and now won't take any other opinions as to it being a less than perfect approach, simply because YOU have good luck with it.
Sorry for the ramble and stupid example.. its early
'99 CSVT - Silver #222/276
In a constant state of blow-off euphoria.
Originally posted by Kremitthefrog:
I like to wear dresses and use binoculars to watch grandmas across the street.
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It doesent have anything to do with me having good luck with it there are 100`s of tuners now using them that are openminded enough to try one
As for the blowthrough vs drawthrough i guess until you try it you wont know what im talking about , My Zetec kits were at one time ALL drawthrough until one day just for the heck of it i did a blowthrough the very first next kit i built in changed everything to blowthrough , My Zetec road , drove and throttled like a new Zetec with the blowthrough it did all of the above but better than a new Zetec would ever do
Im allways open to new things and ideas but when it is an idea i have tested throughly than i will argue against it till the end if there wrong , I have my own Dynojet dyno and i tune with ,Diablo , SCT , Sniper , Uni-Chip , Pectel , and about 10 others , You wont find many Co. that put the time into testing new tuning parts than i do and ill bet you dont even know any Co that have all the tuning software i have and we do it to stay ontop of whats out there and whats changing so that we allways have the best for our customers
I dont say this stuff from opinions like the rest do i say it from testing and using it all the time
Tom
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That is all well and good, but you have to remember we are talking about two different animals, a zetec vs. a duratec. We have already found the methods after much trial and error that make duratecs run perfectly well if the tuning is done right. I know I have put the effort into many different systems, YEARS ago and it wasn't until the current system that I have become convinced that this method works and works really well, is affordable, and most importantly is Reapeatable! By that I mean the same thing you said with your zetec kits that it is a consistent setup that you can install on every high power duratec and get it to work well.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
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'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Well if it works lets not try new things to try to make it any better , Is that what your saying ?
I allways open to try new things some times they work some times they dont but i dont form an opinion till i try them
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Well if it works lets not try new things to try to make it any better , Is that what your saying ?
I allways open to try new things some times they work some times they dont but i dont form an opinion till i try them
Tom
See you are trying to be inflamatory again through sarcasm... it isn't working.
How about I turn it around on you. How about I say:
"Hey, you are using the draw through mafs in a blow through configuration, why not try draw through again and just change the position of where you put the draw through maf, along with PROPER sizing and tuning?"
"Why not try a GReddy eManage to tune in the system and provide real time datalogging as well as all the features of the Maf-ia and many more features for sligtly more than the price of the Maf-ia?"
Now we know you will say:
"No, I've already tried X amount of things and I'm confident this is the best way." Like you have already said.
So I can turn around and say to you:
Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Well if it works lets not try new things to try to make it any better , Is that what your saying ?
I allways open to try new things some times they work some times they dont but i dont form an opinion till i try them
Tom
With the main point being that we have tried many many things and we have arrived at the optimum method...so far. Why should I screw with a near perfect tune anyway....especially if it is so suitable that I can just keep making more and more power? If you were to have proposed a new product with a NEW method of tuning rather than just another fancy variation of an OLD theme we've already deeply explored, then maybe we'd be willing to try it out.
But to give you another analogy, you are asking us to throw away our Iron tools because they are rusty and go back to bronze tools so they don't rust....
Maybe you should remember we are talking about duratecs and you are talking about zetecs....there's another thought since we are comparing apples to crab-apples.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by warmonger:
Maybe you should remember we are talking about duratecs and you are talking about zetecs....there's another thought since we are comparing apples to crab-apples.
Ouch.
We've all got sup'm to think about. Let's leave it at that.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
While in Modular Madness West today, I asked them about what they thought about blow-thru setups. They prefer them for the same reasons Turbo Tom pointed out. They also like using MAFia's with the stock MAF. Though, the cream of the crop OEM MAF's at this point in their opinion is the '05+ Mustang GT MAF. He admitted that most kits they tune are the procharger type that are designed to run with the blow-thru. He noted that draw-thru are as good, but need more time to dial them in. I noted the 900rwhp '04 Terminator 5L cammer with the blow-thru TT setup they're building now 
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
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