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Originally posted by Russell-3L:
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough
FWIW, all of us ADC turbo guys have draw through MAF's. 
and i too will be going that route with my homemade setup
draw through 90mm lightning maf
Again the perfect point why you guys need to step up to whats new in the world
Russell, whay would you do a far to large 90MM drawthrough when you could have a properly sized 3 inch that proberly is the size of your inlet piping , would you follow the rest when they jumped off the bridge also , why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
Tom
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
You mean "hack" as in using a 80 or 90MM MAF housing that has poor resonance crappy 4 bolt flanges thet leak if you try to do them blowthrough and couplers that cost you 2 times the money because you need odd couplers to connect the 3.25 to a 2.5 pipe and 3.5 to 2.5 , thats just insane to tell anyone or recomend that they be used
It amazes me that some can run there mouth with slander and yet have a hard time backing it up with anything
Yes like i said i have done FI on a Zetec both ways and the load calculations at 300HP and 6200RPM were with in .010 of each other so how is this "hack tuning" you guys keep saying it but have yet to back that up either
Tom
Well, FWIW, those MAF's were designed for draw-through configuration and they work well in that config. If you've got to do a blow through then do it but that is what comes with the territory. BTW an adapter plate of sheet metal works beautifully on a large diameter MAF to filter connections and couplers for the pipes.
We never have the same issues on the duratecs that you are describing.
On another note, what do you know about resonance in the MAF? Have you done some measurements or calculations on it???
As far as backing up the hack-tuning comment, it is a matter of opinion; and the standard by which we are measuring that opinion is based upon a stock air and fuel measurement system with stock-like fuel delivery and driveability. As for me:
Anything that reduces one of these variables to operate in condition less effective than what the designers intended when there are other options available would be a hacked method. Rising rate FPR's were a method but considered hack tuning today. At the time they worked. We have it much better now.
So anyway, you stated you didn't feel it was a hack method and therefore it is just a difference of opinion, no harm there.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
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'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Quote:
why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
It's been a long time since I've touched any tuning software Tom but I never had any of the above issues. My reading on the ECU's were just fine. Blow through can be just as good as a draw through, but like you said, you have to know what you are doing. I'm not sure where it is a 'proven' fact or who proved it, but blow through can be as good as draw and in some cases better. I don't know if I would say proven better in every case.
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:
Russell, whay would you do a far to large 90MM drawthrough when you could have a properly sized 3 inch that proberly is the size of your inlet piping , would you follow the rest when they jumped off the bridge also , why not have better throttle response ,less stalling issues , smoother looking MAF voltage readings that = cleaner readings for the ECU , Blow through is the best way to go FI proven fact where the problem comes in is most cannot figure out how to make it work
Tom
several reasons.
i had the 90mm MAF for a while on a N/A 3L with an ATX, then on the same motor with a MTX. i purchased it then because i had F/I in my future and wanted to be prepared. overkill for a N/A 3L, yes. ill even admit my intake plumbing looked like @ss and was all ghetto-rigged like a 16 yr old ricer would do. i drove a good 10-12K using that MAF, and had ZERO stalling or idle issues. not a single one!
now as for the setup im planning. the maf will be connected directly to the air filter, and be located in the fenderwell to draw in fresh cool air. it will then be plumbed to the inlet of the turbo where it will then go through a water-air intercooler before entering the engine. the lightning MAF should work beautifully with the setup im planning, look good and work flawlessly. i will be pushing 10-12 PSI on an oval port 3L and should be making decent numbers. and i will still have a little more headroom if i want to make a bit more power.
Russell
Oval Port 3L Nearly Done
MTX75 w/ Homebrew Zetec FD and Torsen Complete
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3.0L will work better with 90MM MAF VS the 2.0 Zetec but if you do your setup blow through you will see much better driveability and throttle responce
Tom
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Tom,
Why do you think he will see better driveability and throttle response?
The draw through on the V6 with the right function entered in the PCM has literally perfect throttle response! From throttle tip-in, part throttle, or transition to full throttle it is as responsive as a stock 2.5L SVT. The only issue might be when you let off of a full throttle run and you have a blow-off valve, you will go rich momentarily but that doesn't hurt anything.
Ask an independent person who did actually test drove my turbo car looking at driveability and throttle response before purchasing the car.
Ask Keyser who's tuned a bunch of them how good it comes out when properly tuned.
I won't speak for the zetec, so maybe it works for that beast; but for the duratec the blow thru will introduce far more issues than it cures and is not needed at all.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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I'll chime in here.
I am driving a 3L Turbo, with a draw thru setup (said car, above)
The throttle response is nearly INSTANT. as good or better than the stock SVT I sold the same day I bought this one.
Acceleration, transistion, tip-in... its all fluid and without hesitation. You just have to know what you are doing.
My mother makes all of her turkey sandwiches (the day after thanksgiving) by carving the turkey using a straight-edged blade. Why, do you ask? Well.. she started using a serated blade (the preferred method , providing accurate repeatable results) because when she FIRST started carving it, she had never carved a piece of meat in her life and manhandled the thing until it was mashed and she was frustrated. she dropped the blade, grabbed a straight-blade and then tried again using my father to help her (He showed her the proper technique) and using that technique she was able to CARVE A TURKEY WITH A STRAIGHT BLADE.
Does this mean that the straight blade knife is a better solution to carving a turkey than a PROVEN method like the serated blade? Just because she got "nice" results with it? No.. It means that she got fed up with the other method and tryed something NOT normally used and was able to get it to work, because of superior TECHNIQUE.
What I am saying is this: The MAF.ia may work WONDERS.. you may be able to get the car PERFECT WITH IT. it may drive like a dream.. but you're still making the car with a straight-edge blade... just because YOU can get it to work doesn't speak ANYTHING for the apparatus.. it speaks well for YOUR ability to program, or get it to work. You must be VERY familiar with it and the car to do so. It still doesn't change that the other method ISN'T BAD. You just decided to learn on something else and now won't take any other opinions as to it being a less than perfect approach, simply because YOU have good luck with it.
Sorry for the ramble and stupid example.. its early
'99 CSVT - Silver #222/276
In a constant state of blow-off euphoria.
Originally posted by Kremitthefrog:
I like to wear dresses and use binoculars to watch grandmas across the street.
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It doesent have anything to do with me having good luck with it there are 100`s of tuners now using them that are openminded enough to try one
As for the blowthrough vs drawthrough i guess until you try it you wont know what im talking about , My Zetec kits were at one time ALL drawthrough until one day just for the heck of it i did a blowthrough the very first next kit i built in changed everything to blowthrough , My Zetec road , drove and throttled like a new Zetec with the blowthrough it did all of the above but better than a new Zetec would ever do
Im allways open to new things and ideas but when it is an idea i have tested throughly than i will argue against it till the end if there wrong , I have my own Dynojet dyno and i tune with ,Diablo , SCT , Sniper , Uni-Chip , Pectel , and about 10 others , You wont find many Co. that put the time into testing new tuning parts than i do and ill bet you dont even know any Co that have all the tuning software i have and we do it to stay ontop of whats out there and whats changing so that we allways have the best for our customers
I dont say this stuff from opinions like the rest do i say it from testing and using it all the time
Tom
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That is all well and good, but you have to remember we are talking about two different animals, a zetec vs. a duratec. We have already found the methods after much trial and error that make duratecs run perfectly well if the tuning is done right. I know I have put the effort into many different systems, YEARS ago and it wasn't until the current system that I have become convinced that this method works and works really well, is affordable, and most importantly is Reapeatable! By that I mean the same thing you said with your zetec kits that it is a consistent setup that you can install on every high power duratec and get it to work well.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Well if it works lets not try new things to try to make it any better , Is that what your saying ?
I allways open to try new things some times they work some times they dont but i dont form an opinion till i try them
Tom
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