Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Forced Induction Diablo MAFia - How does it work?

Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:

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Sure you're improving resolution! You can increase resolution by either making a smaller MAF look larger or by making a larger MAF look smaller. Let's say that you are using a 90mm Cobra MAF. At your peak horsepower you only generate 3.5volts. You are wasting 1.5volts of resolution. If you scale the 0-3.5volts to 0-5 volts, then recalibrate your PCM for a smaller MAF, your are effectively using the whole MAF's range.

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Okay, I could be wrong in the way I was phrasing my last post but the 12v source ends up as a 5 volt reference signal for the maf, period. As far as achieving 6.5 volts, okay you proved it is possible but you are using a compressed air nozzle right in the opening! That would never be duplicated in real life, Maybe at 25psi boosted...

Here is why I think this is jacked up and that the marketing campaign for the MAFia has pickled your brain.

I don't agree that you will get more resolution by extending the voltage range in the limited way you are trying to.
It isn't the voltage range that improves your resolution, it is the number of sampling points AND the number of sampling points that you can use. You want to keep the voltage range the same and increase the number of data points to actually increase the resolution. WHat you are doing is increasing the range with higher voltage but not increasing the number of data points. Isn't that the opposite?
Here's and example:
By increasing the voltage range then scaling it back down you are increasing the measurable range at a DECREASE in MAF resolution because you are now using the same 30 points to represent and even larger range. Oh, I forgot to mention there are only 30 data points that the pcm can use; whether on 5 volts or on 7volt you still get 30 data points.
Where do you want the increase in resolution? Down low where precise fuel metering is important or up high? Fully half of the data points for transfer function are used to describe the curve in the low range anyway and that is all below 2-3 volts. Oh, and you haven't even answered the question as to whether or not you truly NEED increased resolution or rather an increased range.
Is that what you need, or do you just want your MAF system capable of reading more airflow than it is now?
I will tell you that the stock SVT maf is capable of reading 700kg/hour of airflow and that is enough for well over 300 crank horsepower. You mentioned 270 crank, well there you go. More resolution isn't required because the airflow volume is large at higher rpm and since it is WOT you only need a few data points to keep the A/F on target.

Additionally, you are going from 5-7 volts where you don't even know what the airflow/voltage curve looks like above 5.5volts as your compressed air into a small hole might indicate! To get enough flow volume through the whole maf that it will cause the sampling tube to see that kind of pressure and flow that equals what you just put into it with your compressor nozzle would be mind boggling; and that only gave you 6.5v. These functions aren't linear as you probably know, so does another volt mean another 100cfm or does it mean 1000cfm?

Anyway, no matter what you say you are still
- extending the range of the maf into uncalibrated territory
- rescaling the extended range back down into the pcm 5v expected range with the same 30 sampling points, and thereby reducing resolution at the expense of increased range
- making for a lot of expenses on the dyno as you try to figure out just what/how you will calibrate this equipment to make it work
Trust me, I spent big $ getting a pro-m into calibration and after all that money a normal lightning maf cost less and required less tuning to get it into calibration.

So I just don't get it.
But go ahead and do this and prove to us it works as I am curious how it will benefit you.

Originally posted by 1turbofocus:

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Less accurate Questionable? On a Focus or Contour the signal is MUCH cleaner with a proper sized MAF housing (3 inch is what i like) on a Mustang where you have more qubic inches there fine

Tom

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Originally posted by 1turbofocus:

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warmonger , It has become clear to me that you and many others DONT understand how the MAFia works

The MAFia DOES NOT change the stock electronics "range" it still will be limited to .001 to 4.999 Volts

It also DOES NOT change the sampling points

This is a crude way to say how it works but let me try it this way and maybe many can understand it better if you have say 3.000 Volts with the MAFia set to say 4 setting this would be -40% OFF the 3.000 Volts = 1.700 Volts that now goes to the ECU this same -40% works through out the entire .001 to 4.999 range If you are on setting 4 , There is ways to correct for this in ANY tune because i have done it with the

Diablo ( has all the math done where you just hit the "4" setting and it calculates it all in the tuning software

Sniper and SCT can be done 1 of 2 ways either by changing the Maf Transfer Functions or by the High/Low slopes for the injectors

This is VERY simple VERY accurate devise to use there is NOTHING on the market that will replace the ease of use or cost of your meter maxing out

Tom

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Well that is sort of a true statement, I DON'T fully understand how it works and I don't understand why it was invented in the first place for a street/strip car with all the other options out there.
I'm going to assume you weren't talking to me when you implied we are stuck in the stone age about car tuning and in general don't know what we are talking about.

You act like we haven't figured out how to tune a contour, or a turbo duratec contour. We DO know how and we actually have an affordable, VERY MODERN method now in the SCT chip/tuning kit or PRPackage.
You have to admit that sizing the correct maf for the correct expected airflow range is the proper way to do it, wouldn't you say? I'll grant you there must be specific cases where using a MAFia would be easy and just what the doctor ordered, but so far there isn't a situation here that isn't easily solved by either a chip, flash, SAFC, eManage, another MAF, or combination. Some of these are dirt cheap.


There definitely is such a thing as too big of a MAF for the job, but proper sizing and then tuning fixes that. Having plenty of data points in the area you want to increase your sensor resolution will help in difficult tuning with a very large maf. But, ONLY in the case of a very small engine with a very high pressure ratio could I see a case where a larger MAF is too big. For the boosted 2.5/3L engines the 80mm lightning/cobra mafs are fairly easy and straightforward to tune and offer plenty of low-rpm resolution as well as the obviously larger sampling range for higher airflows. Hell, this is Fords EEC-V, the thing will practically tune itself if you get the MAF data points figured out and entered properly!!

So going back to the MAFia, there are other products that already do what you have stated. I made most of my arguments based off of Buttonpuncher's "selling points" so if there is any misunderstanding then that is why.

However, I see no need to use MAF trickery of any kind when you can get a good custom tune with a differnt MAF and Injectors of your choice for less than $500 total.

If you are a complete freak you can get the PRP and Xcal2 flashing device for around $600. Add to that $150-$250 for a lightning MAF AND injectors...and you are into complete, total engine control for less than $1000. And I better mention you can use this setup to tune any level of power you want assuming you sized your maf and injectors right, with at least 400 wHP with stock lightning hardware, more with bigger injectors.
As far as just tuning the engine via just the MAF, the GReddy eManage is by far the most superior MAF scaling product that I have seen and used!
It can be used with or without a laptop with 6 potentiometers to set various parts of the airflow range, such as the -40% you talked about or you can hook up the laptop and get 16x16 aiflow map with even greater rescaling ability.
If you want a global change of say 20%, it has a multiplier section as if you wanted to change the whole curve that way. You just punch in the factor of 0.80 and it reduces fuel by 20% less.
If you want more fuel you can adjust go with a ratio greater than 1.0 or use the 16x16 map for MAF voltage vs. several variables (like boost pressure, throttle position,etc). If you have a hole, you can add fuel at specific rpms versus specific boost pressure, tps, maf, etc. That is an awesome ability! Using the GReddy boost sensor you can leave the system completely stock and only add fuel when the boost starts to climb, giving you stock driveability under normal circumstances. You can also datalog every sensor hookup that it has along with sensor outputs that you can save to graph later. This can be combined with engine tuning software to dial in your hardware in the same way, by having a 40% reduction in MAF voltage you can adjust your MAF points in teh software and not have to change the MAF right away...if that is what you really wanted to do.
And you can get it in the $200s nowadays. It can really stretch the usefull range on your maf with these methods. Not to mention that for some cars it can do timing adjustments too.

So no, I can't imagine the MAFia doing more with less.

Originally posted by warmonger:

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As far as achieving 6.5 volts, okay you proved it is possible but you are using a compressed air nozzle right in the opening! That would never be duplicated in real life, Maybe at 25psi boosted...

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That what I was trying to simulate!!! If you look back at the chart in my third post, 7.2 volts is about equal to running about 30psi of boost. How else am I going to simulate 700CFM of airflow?!?


Ya gotta love the FI forum.


BP

Originally posted by 1turbofocus:

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warmonger I can see your mind is still closed to anything new , you were one of the ones years ago also saying that 42lb injectors were to big for the Zetec and now there the STD to use

QUOTE"There definitely is such a thing as too big of a MAF for the job, but proper sizing and then tuning fixes that."
****Tuning WONT fix a MAF that is to big if the MAF is to big you will get poor resolution at low RPM and that cannot be fixed with ANY tuning, Changing data points to that area only shows and goes to the statement about still not understanding tuning yet , will it work yes it MIGHT mask the issue is it the PROPER way to do it NO , if you have to move your data points something is wrong

QUOTE "So going back to the MAFia, there are other products that already do what you have stated. "
****Will you show me one that cost less than 150.00 like the MAFia , That is plug and play in less than 30 Sec THERE ISNT ONE

QUOTE " However, I see no need to use MAF trickery "
****There is NO trickery to it, Again you still dont unsderstand or in you case care to understand, To those that do this is the cheapest , easiest , devise to use when going FI it uses your stock MAF electronics so all your sampling points are where they should be, gives you enough range to make from 150 TO 700HP on a Zetec keeps you from having to use LARGE BULKY CRAPPY looking 80MM 4 bolt flange type MAF housings that have poor low end resolution

The SCT PRP is the best tuning tool on the market for those wanting total controle over there cars tuning , the MAFia works well with it and with the cost of both at only 790.00 where can or what can you buy that will come close to what those 2 pieces can do

Tom

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Well you are again right about one thing and oh so wrong in other areas. I may have had misconceptions years ago but I never stopped learning and come a long way with that. For you to come out of the blue trying to insult me just because I don't agree with your product shows who you really are. You are a real piece of work. You read insult even when none was there abd even when I agree that there may be situations where the MAFia would work out well? Why the attitude?
And on top of that, why come here and tell us how wrong and how old school we are tuning our own cars?
You've been doing your thing on friggin zetecs with hack tuning for years and you say I'M stuck in the past? YOu go ahead and continue with your hack tuning Bud because I could fugging care less what you do and why. However don't come on here and tell me I don't know how to tune a duratec or duratec turbo. If you have a product you support, then explain why and let us make up our minds based on our own thinking and the merrits of your arguments.
This isn't one of those forums where everyone is 18 years old and on your tip because you made big power in a Focus. Around here we evaluate all options and debate those options academically. Just because I or another member don't find the option all that great doesn't mean that we won't include it as an option or that others will agree with us. We give equal time to everyone if they argue intelligently and even moderatley respectably in their manners.
As far as experience with different tuning methods go, I've done quite a few. In fact, I've tried almost all the different ways and learned from experience. Excuse me if I don't feel like wasting another $150 on another POS item that will cause me to have to spend more money on other mods just to make it work to its full ability!@!#$%!

You can all go join the MAFia for all I care becuase it is your car and your money. I don't have to like it and I also don't deserve insults for having my own opinion !!

But since you opened up a can of worms, you reap what you sow "Mr. Blow through MAF is a good idea with hacked ECMs" and now MAFia's.

Like I said, an eManage does significantly more and costs barely a few dollars more. If it comes to it, an APEXi SAFC is the very best bang for the buck product on the market that can scale the MAFs output in every way that the MAFia is descriped to do, albeit without being paired with Diablos software. But then that is the marketing scheme now isn't it?? You just show how pliant your mind is and how much a willing victim of mass marketing you are if you dont' evaluate and question your options.

If you are worried about the cost of $100 bucks then you shouldn't be modding your car. And needing to pair the MAFia up with Diablo software for best results? How is that cheap or even smarter than any average chip?
In fact, I don't have any stock with Diablo or SCT or GReddy so I don't have any bias. ON the other hand I have spent a lot of time and money with a Diablo Chip, an EMANAGE, PRO-M and their mafs, adjustible fuel pressure, differnt mafs and injectors, cut mafs, worked with SAFC on other cars, and finally the SCT Xcal2 and software.
In the light of that experience I find the SCT PRP package to be the best option because it allows the user to come as close to OEM tuning as possible should he/she choose to put in the effort and time to learn it.