|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Been a long time since I last posted. Anyway, a company, Custom Performance Engineering, is developing equal length headers for the 3.0L V6 Mazda6. As before with some of my other posts, there may be a potential for fitment for the Contour/Cougar platform. They will be including a bracket for the alternator to move it out of the way. No one knows as to where yet, but it is a much better option than MSDS left with cutting the alternator heat shield. Anyone in the Beltsville, Maryland area may want to stop by CP-e to see about possible fitment as prototypes are already done:  They reviewed the SHM header design and hopefully will have a lower price point than SHM (Then again, doesn't everyone have lower prices than SHM?  )
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065 |
Those will not fit a contour.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Those will not fit a contour.
What makes you say no?
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Those will not fit a contour.
What makes you say no?
These are the SHM's...but in the pic you show the rear bank looks too angled up towards the firewall...do you have another pic?!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760 |
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Those will not fit a contour.
What makes you say no?
These are the SHM's...but in the pic you show the rear bank looks too angled up towards the firewall...do you have another pic?!
those aren't SHMs. SHMS do not utilize a ypipe.
Ryan
Trollin!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
|
|
I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
those aren't SHMs. SHMS do not utilize a ypipe.
Take bets on that? 
http://www.contour.org/php/showpic.php?img=/gallery/parts/SHM3.jpg
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760 |
Interesting...I've always understood that they did not have a ypipe and required a custom exhaust....
Ryan
Trollin!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718 |
i say no need for the y-pipe anyway....just build a true duals setup.
now that would be pretty powerful i bet!
1999 Cougar V6 MTX
SVT UIM/LIM/65mm TB, I/H/E, Fidanza/SPEC III/Torsen, Koni/GC's, 19" Icon wheels w/ Pirelli rubber, NX Wet Kit
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
|
|
I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
I'll kiss RT's bare ass if Mazda 6 headers fit a Contour w/o modification.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760 |
just a warning, its a hairy ass...
Ryan
Trollin!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
|
|
I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,978
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,978 |
Couldnt hurt a contour owner to try it... Who knows maybe they would even be interested in slightly altering them to fit our platform...
Alex
'99 SVT Contour
-=|WANTED: Vortech, working or not |=-
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by todras:
I'll kiss RT's bare ass if Mazda 6 headers fit a Contour w/o modification.
Nobody seems to complain about having to modify the WR's 
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
|
|
I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Uuu slightly different modifying an EGR tube or just buying the correct Cougar EGR than 30% of the 6 piping rubbing.  
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 110
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 110 |
Where exactly is Beltsville. I'm located in Westminster.
What advantages do long tubes have over the shorties already offered?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by todras:
Uuu slightly different modifying an EGR tube or just buying the correct Cougar EGR than 30% of the 6 piping rubbing.
Twas a joke  . And 30% of 6 = 1.8
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by rac74:
Where exactly is Beltsville. I'm located in Westminster.
What advantages do long tubes have over the shorties already offered?
I am sure Demon can better explain it to me, but with equal length tubes, the scavenging wave is equal in both banks. Just about sucks all the gas out of the cylinders instead of naturally being pushed out, i.e. more effecient than shorties.
Equaling out the pulses eliminates the need or desire of an h-pipe or x-pipe.
Not to mention the sound difference between equal length and unequal length headers 
As for where CP-e is:
Custom Performance Engineering
6802 Mid Cities Ave.,
Beltsville, MD 20705
Phone:
Sales: Josh Adams (410) 703-9365
Tech Support: Anthony Messina (301) 693-7531
Email:
sales@cp-e.com
customerservice@cp-e.com
info@cp-e.com
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087 |
Originally posted by rac74:
Where exactly is Beltsville. I'm located in Westminster.
What advantages do long tubes have over the shorties already offered?
IIRC the SHM headers had a much broader torque curve increase (aka more area under the curve) than the MSDS headers.
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by Bronco_II:
IIRC the SHM headers had a much broader torque curve increase (aka more area under the curve) than the MSDS headers.
That is "what has been said" however the simple truth is no one ever dyno proved any difference between the two. Matter of fact there are 2 rather low dynos with folks using SHM headers. (there are few dynos with SHM's btw)
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by Bronco_II:
IIRC the SHM headers had a much broader torque curve increase (aka more area under the curve) than the MSDS headers.
That is "what has been said" however the simple truth is no one ever dyno proved any difference between the two. Matter of fact there are 2 rather low dynos with folks using SHM headers. (there are few dynos with SHM's btw)
You are probably right, but I do seem to remember a guy that put down ~190 hp in (I believe) a 2000 2.5L CSVT with SHM headers (among other things). I can't remember his name, but it was the last dyno I saw of anyone with the SHM headers. Also I know, it's only one guy, but I still would like to find that dyno graph of his.
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087 |
I did a little research:
This might be who I was thinking of. ezsvt hit ~190 hp with a 2.5L with SHM headers.
Here's his dyno graph:
Compared to the only dyno graph I could find with MSDS headers and other stuff:
From this thread.
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
SVT ST Pete has a pair of SHM's on his 3.0L Hybrid AND it's been dynoed ... I have never seen the dyno, but I helped pulled the dead 2.5L engine. Someone PM Pete and ask for the dyno link.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
SVT ST Pete has a pair of SHM's on his 3.0L Hybrid AND it's been dynoed ... I have never seen the dyno, but I helped pulled the dead 2.5L engine. Someone PM Pete and ask for the dyno link.
Originally posted by SVT PETE:
It's the fact that 9+/10 dyno on DynoJets. I would loosely like to see where I stand.
3.0 hybrid by DanG
Ported & polished heads by kinger
SHM long tube headers, Jet Hot coated
Extrude Honed Power Flow UIM, Jet Hot coated
CTA intake pipe, Jet Hot coated
65mm throttle body, optimized
AFE 8" filter
Bassani cat-back exhaust
Edelbrock muffler (resonator)
Torsen LSD
SPEC Stage 1 clutch
SPEC flywheel
If I have money after paying for the wedding, hopefully a chip/tune.
As a comparison on a Mustang dyno:
scottd60 w/ intake Bassani
159.0hp, 127.6tq
Myself: 202.4hp, 177tq
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 759
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 759 |
Personally, I would like to see a "Medium Tube" header. Something that slots in between the MSDS and SHM style headers. The MSDS have very short tubes, and in a car like ours, the SHM long tubes cause fit/interference issues. With new product support for this platform all but non-existant, I won't hold my breath 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,423
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,423 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by Bronco_II:
IIRC the SHM headers had a much broader torque curve increase (aka more area under the curve) than the MSDS headers.
That is "what has been said" however the simple truth is no one ever dyno proved any difference between the two. Matter of fact there are 2 rather low dynos with folks using SHM headers. (there are few dynos with SHM's btw)
I don't think SVTPete's rev-limiting "Mustang" Dyno 202.4hp, 177tq numbers on a untuned buggy 3.0L SVT Hybrid w/SHM long tube headers would be concidered low numbers. Some 3.0L's don't even have numbers this good on inflated "Dynojet" pulls 
Scott
2000 Contour SVT #1464
Mustang Dyno: 171.6hp/145.3lb
Dynojet Dyno: 171.1hp/148.9lb
1989 20th Anniversary Turbo T/A "Indy 500 Pace Car"
#1376 of 1550 All Original, 46k with a few mods
2002 F150 SuperCrew
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 124
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 124 |
whats the price on these going to be running at? i didn't have any fitment issues on my WR on my cougar, other than my egr tube....
2000 mercury cougar V6 5spd
3.0L SVT mated to my HMS tranny......
a wolf in sheeps clothing
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fordrule:
whats the price on these going to be running at? i didn't have any fitment issues on my WR on my cougar, other than my egr tube....
Don't know yet, expect around SHM's price. I say $900-$1200.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
More beautiful pictures:
Headers are finalized, the only hold up is CP-e is working with Magnaflow on the y-pipe with their catalytic converter for the Mazda6. I expect in about two weeks time, everything will be done. CP-e said the dyno numbers and pricing will come out same day and the headers will be sold seperately from the y-pipe as well.
Last edited by Twisted6; 10/14/05 01:39 PM.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
bumping this to see if more info has come about. I suppose I could even stop by since I don't think the shop is far from me. Maybe 20 miles?
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by Bronco_II:
IIRC the SHM headers had a much broader torque curve increase (aka more area under the curve) than the MSDS headers.
That is "what has been said" however the simple truth is no one ever dyno proved any difference between the two. Matter of fact there are 2 rather low dynos with folks using SHM headers. (there are few dynos with SHM's btw)
Yeah, cuz you had to take out a second mortgage to buy them when they were new!
$1200 at the time.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 124
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 124 |
what about the egr on the rear header
2000 mercury cougar V6 5spd
3.0L SVT mated to my HMS tranny......
a wolf in sheeps clothing
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 352
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 352 |
The rear header will not work on the Cougar/Contour platform due to the primary tube exit angle- There's no bend downwards immediately, and our platform simply doesn't carry the room for that. The front tube, however, looks like it'll work- SHM on SVT Pete's 3L hybrid:  Looks about right, yes? A modified rear header may not be too much to ask of the manufacturer...
Dan G. and his Cougar
Forged internal (Diamond & Pauter) full 3L, "Monster" Kinger F/I cut & P&P, T3/4 60 trim .82A/R ADC turbo, SPEC Stage 3, Torsen, Greddy Profec-B SPEC II, Apex'i Timer, Lots of Gauges!
Used to have: 3.0L SVT hybrid
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Yeah, thats actually pretty good looking.  I agree that you could ask them to make an adapted rear header, and they would be interested. However, getting them to get a car together and actually build one may be hard and a long time coming. Now if you were to show them an example with comparison pictures it might be easier.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
I'll be getting my SVT back up here after the first. I have tomorrow pretty much off so I'll swing by and see what they say.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Never made it there last week. Things get in the way. I'll try to get there Monday.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Figured you guys might like this.. dyno. Victim: Bone stock Mazda6 3.0L MTX that was broken in softly.   Some side notes: - The donor had gotten the most recent flash which lowered the hard rev limiter from 7,000 RPM to 6,500 RPM. So fuel cut-off starts around 6,000 RPM instead of 6,500 RPM. - Factory air/fuel ratios are pretty screwed on the Mazda6, so with proper tuning, generous power is there. CP-e did a dyno with their MAFci intake system (CAI and a piggyback to correct AFR) and the headers and "Dyno'ed well better than a 255 HP Altima". Headers alone with no y-pipe are $891.80. http://www.cp-e.com/2019.html
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Not for that price I don't.
I can take $1700 with stock SVT exhaust on a 3L and make 196 wHP, already did it....without headers. With headers it'll be well over 200.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Not for that price I don't.
I can take $1700 with stock SVT exhaust on a 3L and make 196 wHP, already did it....without headers. With headers it'll be well over 200.
And as I said, with proper fuel tuning (Which is fairly common on this board from all my reading) it does well north of 200 to the wheels. Since CP-e has yet to publish the dyno of their intake and headers combo, a little birdie that was present said something about 261. Though we know it did "dyno well better" than a 255 HP Altima, so at least in the 240s to 250s. That is also without SVT intake cams
Where did you get $1700 from? Even the price after the promo introduction pricing ends is not $1700. To top it off, the CP-e y-pipe would not even be useable on the Tour platform.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718 |
261-178=83... 83 hp from intake, full exhaust, and tune??? i would have to see that in person to believe! 
1999 Cougar V6 MTX
SVT UIM/LIM/65mm TB, I/H/E, Fidanza/SPEC III/Torsen, Koni/GC's, 19" Icon wheels w/ Pirelli rubber, NX Wet Kit
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
Not to sound harsh, I think it's great that the Mazda6 now has a header option out there, but why do we care? It's been said before and unless I missed the memo otherwise, the rear header WILL NOT work for us
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Come now, that kind of attitude keeps the platform dead. Someone mentioned the rear header would work with an adapter or modification of some sort. If nothing else, CP-e would have no problem redesigning a single header to fit another platform and double their market potential.
Call, email or visit Josh and Anthony and tell them the "infamous" 84FordMan sent you.
And yes I miscalculated drivetrain loss a great bit (And nothing to drink today), but 261 BHP from intake and headers is still an awesome number.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Not for that price I don't.
I can take $1700 with stock SVT exhaust on a 3L and make 196 wHP, already did it....without headers. With headers it'll be well over 200.
And as I said, with proper fuel tuning (Which is fairly common on this board from all my reading) it does well north of 200 to the wheels. Since CP-e has yet to publish the dyno of their intake and headers combo, a little birdie that was present said something about 261. Though we know it did "dyno well better" than a 255 HP Altima, so at least in the 240s to 250s. That is also without SVT intake cams
Where did you get $1700 from? Even the price after the promo introduction pricing ends is not $1700. To top it off, the CP-e y-pipe would not even be useable on the Tour platform.
The full pipe setup and shipping and handling.
Whatever, the pipes are too damned expensive for what you get. You even said in your post that they fiddled with the A/F.
So then the headers may not really be gaining all that power. I'm willing to bet that proper tuning and light mods will get it into the 190s without the headers.
Oh, and an Altima dyno's less than you/they are indicating, at least stock. The ones I remember are between 200-210.
With a fine tuned 3L with VVT and headers, I'd expect it to get around that anyway.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure that they are full of it if they are claiming it will dyno 261HP. I'm guessing they are backcalculating the power to the crank since it dyno'd slightly better than an altima.
Okay, not trying to rain on your parade and these headers may be all that and more...but I just am going to remain skeptical and also flabbergasted at the price. The price is high only because they have no competition and demand is probably low right now. Just like SHM headers were in the early days of the SVT.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
You are correct in assuming it would get in the 190s without the headers. Here it is, bone 6S MTX vs 6S MTX with CP-e MAFci intake system:
As you see, both the intake and headers gained roughly 20 WHP seperately. Together? Come on.
Last edited by Twisted6; 12/21/05 10:52 PM.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 299
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 299 |
It is similar to the SHM price. I expected the final price to be similar to that, but not the group buy price. The final, non GB price is indeed $1700. These are also unforunately the only equal-length headers for the M6. And the only other headers on the market are shorty MSDS and DC Sport, but neither of which can claim any considerable gains.
Also keep in mind that the full package comes with a new alternator bracket, y-pipe with highflow cat and a kit to extend the O2 wires. For an introductory price of $1300, there will be enough M6 people to turn a profit. But I still think they're pricing too high and turning off a lot of potentional customers.
I don't think they fiddled with any A/F at all though, I don't know where that idea came from. I think the dyno was on a well-broken in, but bonestock, '05. They commited the cardinal sin of estimating BHP with their intake (24HP total gain overall, more at points in the curve) AND the headers. They also do a lot of work on Altimas so that comment probably just meant they dynoed WHP higher than a stock Altima SE-R.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
They didn't fiddle with the A/F ratio, which is what I am driving across, the factory A/F ratios are skewed, which is why the CP-e MAFci intake system sees such a huge gain.
Yes the donor's car was well broken-in, as time per se, but not well, as in hard, broken-in, otherwise the stock dyno pull would be 180ish, like falcontx's or Sigma's and everyone else who broke their MTX V6 in the hard way.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
I didn't get a chance to swing by before I left (spent my Monday at a dealer). I return stateside after the first but am heading right back out again. By mid january though, I'll be going home to Charleston and will have my SVT back up in Md and will swing by then and see what can be done about a new rear header.
Twisted6, does that seem fair to you?
Mike
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by 69Boss302:
I didn't get a chance to swing by before I left (spent my Monday at a dealer). I return stateside after the first but am heading right back out again. By mid january though, I'll be going home to Charleston and will have my SVT back up in Md and will swing by then and see what can be done about a new rear header.
Twisted6, does that seem fair to you?
Mike
Me? I don't really care, just try to bring some cheer everyone once awhile to the grumpy "old" CEG'ers here with a potential new product.
Be safe and have a happy holidays.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
Hell, if they are open on a Saturday, I can trailer the SVT Contour to them ... I live in the eastern panhandle of WV ... about a 75-80 mile drive from Beltsville, MD. However, I must first get the Contour up and running, which I'm hoping will be around the first of the year
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Hell, if they are open on a Saturday, I can trailer the SVT Contour to them ... I live in the eastern panhandle of WV ... about a 75-80 mile drive from Beltsville, MD. However, I must first get the Contour up and running, which I'm hoping will be around the first of the year
Not sure, call them: 410-703-9365
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by 69Boss302:
I didn't get a chance to swing by before I left (spent my Monday at a dealer). I return stateside after the first but am heading right back out again. By mid january though, I'll be going home to Charleston and will have my SVT back up in Md and will swing by then and see what can be done about a new rear header.
Twisted6, does that seem fair to you?
Mike
Me? I don't really care, just try to bring some cheer everyone once awhile to the grumpy "old" CEG'ers here with a potential new product.
Be safe and have a happy holidays.
I just don't want you to feel like I'm stepping on your toes. I agree with trying to get new products, spent lots of time with different folks over the years doing the same. Not that anything ever really come of it though. I'll see what I can do.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
The price is high only because they have no competition and demand is probably low right now. Just like SHM headers were in the early days of the SVT.
Update as of today, 13 people have ordered them and this during the toughest financial time of the year, post-christhanukwanzfestivus. Come tax-return time demand will go up quite well.
Last edited by Twisted6; 12/31/05 06:57 PM.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Wow...13, the unlucky number j/k Sounds good but it is Christmas time, the time when people don't mind putting themselves into debt...
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Wow...13, the unlucky number
j/k
Sounds good but it is Christmas time, the time when people don't mind putting themselves into debt...
It is post-Christmas time and many people are already in debt, there were quite a number complaining about the timing of the initial buy price, but the number of orders has gone up to 14 with two more on the fence. Even if you don't like the headers, like what will come out from CP-e if the headers at least recoup R&D costs (At $20,000+ already in CP-e's pockets, I am pretty sure it is almost guaranteed): the CP-e supercharger. Though it will really only be beneficial to those who use the 2001+ plastic upper oval intake manifold, as CP-e's whole purpose is that all their products match and bolt up to each other.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
ok guys, I stopped by CPE today and will be trying a set of the long tubes out on my 99 CSVT in the upcoming weeks. If they fit, then great no problems for anyone. If they don't fit, we can take measurements and depending on interest and/or funding provided, will make revisions and produce them or walk away from it altogether.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Now that wasn't painful at all now was it?
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Not at all. Anthony is a very nice guy. Now I just have to set more money aside for this instead of something else.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Nope, sounds good if you want to do a cool NA motor.
Me....I'm satisfied with humungus power!!! mwahahahah!
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 718 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Nope, sounds good if you want to do an expensive NA motor.
there we go...that's more like it  
1999 Cougar V6 MTX
SVT UIM/LIM/65mm TB, I/H/E, Fidanza/SPEC III/Torsen, Koni/GC's, 19" Icon wheels w/ Pirelli rubber, NX Wet Kit
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Me....I'm satisfied with humungus power!!! mwahahahah!
I'll be curing that with my 5.3L Silverado.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
Not trying to stir up any crap, just trying to be the voice of reason. For comparisson sake: This was on an mtx, no tuning (even dirty oil), short adapter cone filter and no cats, stock rear mufflers too. They are the MSDS headers produced exclusively for Draxas ... aka: Duratec Performance. Cost is around $650 IIRC. These new headers are what ... $800-$900 more and make roughly the same HP 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Not trying to stir up any crap, just trying to be the voice of reason. For comparisson sake:
This was on an mtx, no tuning (even dirty oil), short adapter cone filter and no cats, stock rear mufflers too.
They are the MSDS headers produced exclusively for Draxas ... aka: Duratec Performance. Cost is around $650 IIRC. These new headers are what ... $800-$900 more and make roughly the same HP
The MSDS gets you nothing more than the headers from what I remember and you still have to cut up your alternator shielding. CP-e supplies an alternator bracket to move it away from the headers, they also supply a y-pipe for that price.
So I can assume the MSDS headers were connected to an optimized y-pipe if cats were removed. Not to forget the SVT cams the MSDS headers took advantage of.
Now compare what you get with MSDS to the CP-e equivalent in price. $650 vs $895.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 98
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 98 |
MSDS comes with everything needed for a bolt on installation.
Headers, Y-pipe, mounting hardware, gaskets and MIL eliminators. No messing around with the alternator at all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Not trying to stir up any crap, just trying to be the voice of reason. For comparisson sake:
This was on an mtx, no tuning (even dirty oil), short adapter cone filter and no cats, stock rear mufflers too.
They are the MSDS headers produced exclusively for Draxas ... aka: Duratec Performance. Cost is around $650 IIRC. These new headers are what ... $800-$900 more and make roughly the same HP
The MSDS gets you nothing more than the headers from what I remember and you still have to cut up your alternator shielding. CP-e supplies an alternator bracket to move it away from the headers, they also supply a y-pipe for that price.
So I can assume the MSDS headers were connected to an optimized y-pipe if cats were removed. Not to forget the SVT cams the MSDS headers took advantage of.
Now compare what you get with MSDS to the CP-e equivalent in price. $650 vs $895.
Yep, you definitely assumed wrong. www.msdsinc.com lists their Mazda 6 3L shorty header set at $675.00. My email from Marty shows the same graph that fastcougar posted. And Marty quotes "Only items used were our off the shelf(shorty) header system, no cats, stock rear exhaust, NO tuning and 87 octane."
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
I stand corrected, but still stand by my convictions that your comparing two different engines and not condemn a product before it is even tested on a similar engine as those MSDS dynos are from.
All I know is, more than 18 people plopped down that $1700 for the CP-e headers and that is 15-16 more than the MSDS headers which have available for two years IIRC. Production starts next week on the Mazda6 batch, hopefully it won't effect them working with 69Boss302.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Holy crap. $1700 headers better give at least 50 wheel HP/TQ throughout the entire powerband. Plus install themselves. 
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Holy crap. $1700 headers better give at least 50 wheel HP/TQ throughout the entire powerband. Plus install themselves.
Considering you don't have to hack up other components to make them fit closely classifies itself as install itself.
As for power gain and the powerband, with proper tuning, yes.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
I stand corrected, but still stand by my convictions that your comparing two different engines
When in this discussion did we move from Mazda6 3L's to another engine with SVT cams??? The MSDS dyno is from a bone stock Mazda 6 with the MSDS Header/y-pipe combo, and THAT'S IT! No SVT cams were used. So once again, $675 for the MSDS header AND y-pipe set that comes with EVERYTHING needed to bolt it on and proved to make 199fwhp. How much is the CP-E kit again? I see $1700, then I see $895?
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
When in this discussion did we move from Mazda6 3L's to another engine with SVT cams??? The MSDS dyno is from a bone stock Mazda 6 with the MSDS Header/y-pipe combo, and THAT'S IT! No SVT cams were used. So once again, $675 for the MSDS header AND y-pipe set that comes with EVERYTHING needed to bolt it on and proved to make 199fwhp. How much is the CP-E kit again? I see $1700, then I see $895?
Mark
During my header topics it has always been Contour gain vs Mazda6 gain on the product I was offering. If I had known that was a Mazda6 that FC posted, then I would of corrected him with the dynos of the two Mazda6 MSDS header owners. Here is Kit's (z6speed) who later turned his into a twin turbo monster, the first three runs were done in 3rd gear like the dyno above and 46-degrees outside, the final pull that got the most power was done in 4th gear. His only was an Injen CAI:
http://forum.mazda6tech.com/viewtopic.php?t=349
Davecoyne, another 6S owner, also installed them and saw only a 10WHP gain on a Mustang dyno, his only mod was also an Injen CAI: http://www.cardomain.com/ride/326543/7
Here is the actual MSDS' dyno of the Mazda6, from their website:
So again I begin to wonder where that dyno of FC's is from...
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Holy skewed post Batman! Kind of ironic that in the thread you linked, the 2nd post talks about a Contour with a 3L swap only putting down 175fwhp! Talk about some LOW numbers! I can't recall ANY 3L Contours below 180fwhp, and even then, those are the guys with just the 3L block, stock airbox and exhaust! It's no surprise that the Mazda6 would dyno low! Hell, even the Jackson Racing supercharged Mazda Miata that only put down 142whp!! This should be a sign that the dyno was giving low numbers! 
BTW, the dyno graph you posted is on an ATX Mazda6. The graph posted by fastcougar was the same graph that Marty emailed to me of an MTX Mazda6.
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 299
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 299 |
One thing that always bothered us about the MSDS dyno is that they did so WITH an AEM short ram, good enough for at least 10-15HP. So no, that gain you see is not just from the headers. It was also done on an ATX, which IMHO was totally lame of them. The CP-E dyno, by comparison, was done on a 100% bone stock car.
In any case, one the often mentioned things about the MSDS kit for the 6 is that the Y-pipe is not a direct fit and is cheap. Its often misaligned and needs to be modified, along with the alternator heat shield. Contours, fortunately, don't have this problem (or do they?) I believe Draxas asked MSDS to work with us to fix the problems, a "fix" came out, but it wasn't satisfactory to those that already owned the kit. That's MSDS' fault, not Draxas. The CP-E kit comes 100% ready for the 6 platform. Also, the y-pipe was designed by Magnaflow, kind of a plus in that department (although whether its worth the extra money, I digress.)
So if you want to do a direct comparison of actual parts, you would have to delete the cat ($109), alternator-bracket/pulley ($33.17), and O2 wire extenders ($36) which don't come with the MSDS kit. That would be $675 for the MSDS v.s. $1522. (Or $675 v.s. $1121 if you use the GB price.) (Note: You would need to modify both kits in this state to work on the 6.)
In conclusion, there are discrepancies in what MSDS is pushing, but yes their headers are much less expensive, even if you do have to do some modification yourself. Still, I take only 2 orders of the MSDS in the past 2 years v.s. 18 immediate orders a good indication of the things mentioned above that just aren't acceptible to most 6 owners.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
BTW, the dyno graph you posted is on an ATX Mazda6. The graph posted by fastcougar was the same graph that Marty emailed to me of an MTX Mazda6.
Mark
So explain why no one else could reproduce MSDS' numbers on MTX Mazda6s?
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
The only true way to know would be to dyno the same engine in the same car on the same day running both sets of headers: Drive to the dyno with MSDS/CPE headers with the toer set in the trunk. Do 3 dyno runs and average them together. Let the car cool down for 30 minutes and then uninstall/install the other set and redo the 3 runs. That is the ONLY way to know and if done, I highly suspect that the MSDS headers will be within 5-10% of the CPE headers ... not bad for a 100% price difference.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
The only true way to know would be to dyno the same engine in the same car on the same day running both sets of headers:
I fully expect that a comparison will be done at some point of similar cars with the different headers. That will tell the tale of which headers are worth the money. Given history as a guide, the pricing will come down for all and improvements will be made for competitive reasons. Something to look forward to all the way 'round.
I guess what I'm trying to say - competition is good!
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by fastcougar:
The only true way to know would be to dyno the same engine in the same car on the same day running both sets of headers:
I fully expect that a comparison will be done at some point of similar cars with the different headers. That will tell the tale of which headers are worth the money. Given history as a guide, the pricing will come down for all and improvements will be made for competitive reasons. Something to look forward to all the way 'round.
I guess what I'm trying to say - competition is good!
I really could care less ... I don't own a Mazda 6 and until these prove able to install on the Contour/Cougar platforms, this thread is pretty pointless
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 90
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 90 |
If any of the 18 Mazda6s owners who have placed deposits for the CP-E headers live in SoCal, I would be more than happy to pay for them to come to the same dyno we used to dyno Loren's Mazda6s (the car we produced 199.xWHP with).
I drove the car for a few weeks, it was a beast, trust me. I took the car to a local Mazda6Club meet and took people for rides...they thought it was a beast.
Mods: Ghetto home-made Hot Air Intake, MSDS Headers and Y-Pipe, Ghetto 2.5" Exhaust system split into 2.25" dual mufflers in the rear. (this wasnt event our Draxas exhaust system)
Ideally, what I would like to do is get one of the customers in SoCal who has placed an order for a Mazda6 MSDS Header set recently, at the dyno on the same day as a CP-E Header equipped Mazda6. Then we can compare on the same dyno on the same day.
Owner
www.Draxas.com
15.09 @ 91.54(corrected, pre-SVT conversion, DiabloChip, and Injectors)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
I've spread the word Nik, someone is bound to answer
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by fastcougar:
The only true way to know would be to dyno the same engine in the same car on the same day running both sets of headers:
I fully expect that a comparison will be done at some point of similar cars with the different headers. That will tell the tale of which headers are worth the money. Given history as a guide, the pricing will come down for all and improvements will be made for competitive reasons. Something to look forward to all the way 'round.
I guess what I'm trying to say - competition is good!
I really could care less ... I don't own a Mazda 6 and until these prove able to install on the Contour/Cougar platforms, this thread is pretty pointless
Ok guys,I'm going to settle this one now, since I will be doing this on mine and working with CPE. I have a dyno apt on Friday morning at 8:30 on a Mustang dyno. This is with a bone stock 99 CSVT with 40,000 and catback exhaust. Numbers will be posted afterwards. And when we get the longtubes sorted out, the same will be done.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
My point is this: Their price for a "full" system (headers & Y-Pipe) is not less, BUT MORE than SHM's where when they where being sold. They have only proven marginal gains over MSDS considering the price difference. If you treated your car like a "business of horsepower", the Return On Investment just isn't there ... the hp per $ ratio is horrible. Don't get me wrong, I see the market & desire for long tube headers for our cars, but what's the point really if it costs an arm and leg ... we already have that with SHM!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,087 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
we already have that with SHM!
I think you mean "had".
Matt
2002 Subaru Impreza WRX (WRB Stage 4+)
Old Rides:
1999 Sil-Fro SVT Contour 3.0L with goodies (Totalled 6/21/06)
1988 Bronco II (Sold)
You know you launch hard when you beat oncoming traffic through their own crosswalk lines.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
I think the point is don't shoot it down before it gets off the ground. Once they run off a few Mazda sets, modding the Y (if that's all that's needed) so they can be used on our cars (Cougars included) would be a minimal effort. The R&D costs could be spread out & prices can come down. They may even be adaptable to the Fusion/Milan, Escape, and others. The more the merrier. Dig it??? In your defense, your reasoning is sound, but perhaps a bit premature. Let things shake out and don't bash. Encourage competition because it will be to everybodys benefit, not just ours.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
My point is this: Their price for a "full" system (headers & Y-Pipe) is not less, BUT MORE than SHM's where when they where being sold. They have only proven marginal gains over MSDS considering the price difference. If you treated your car like a "business of horsepower", the Return On Investment just isn't there ... the hp per $ ratio is horrible. Don't get me wrong, I see the market & desire for long tube headers for our cars, but what's the point really if it costs an arm and leg ... we already have that with SHM!
Well Nikolas at Draxas has been contacted by Adam (atom44wat from Mazda6club) who is still running MSDS headers on an ATX, he also was one of the ones who purchased the CPe headers. Other than the headers he has the CPe tunable intake system and Magnaflow catback. They will start with a dyno of the MSDS headers still on the car and make sure AFR is tuned properly and dyno again if required. Then they will install the CPe headers, dyno, check and adjust AFR as needed and dyno again if required. Back-to-back dynos, on the same day, on the same engine.
So we will finally have our answer in a few weeks time.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Just out of curiosity, what is a tunable intake? I saw some mention of a MAF that cp-e makes or sells? I hope this isn't one of those deals where you control the A/F through the MAF, via a Mafterburner type device. Been there, done that, sent it back.
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Just out of curiosity, what is a tunable intake? I saw some mention of a MAF that cp-e makes or sells? I hope this isn't one of those deals where you control the A/F through the MAF, via a Mafterburner type device. Been there, done that, sent it back.
Mark
Piggyback, yes alters the A/F through a MAFterburner type of device, they sold them with their intake in both non-tunable preset and tunable types. There are proven dyno results of it working, but as mention many times before, the factory AF ratio is pretty screwed anyway.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Just out of curiosity, what is a tunable intake? I saw some mention of a MAF that cp-e makes or sells? I hope this isn't one of those deals where you control the A/F through the MAF, via a Mafterburner type device. Been there, done that, sent it back.
Mark
Piggyback, yes alters the A/F through a MAFterburner type of device, they sold them with their intake in both non-tunable preset and tunable types. There are proven dyno results of it working, but as mention many times before, the factory AF ratio is pretty screwed anyway.
I bought a 75mm Pro-M MAF and bought the Mafterburner type device that would allow you to lean it out or richen it up. Basically a hack way of tuning, which I was willing to try since at the time, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from as far as custom burned chips or Xcal2's. Put the car on the dyno to find out that the Mafterburner was adjusting the A/F backwards, so it'd go rich when I leaned it out and vise versa. For the money that you're spending, you might as well do your basic intake, and get an Xcal2 tune where you can make small adjustments.
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
I bought a 75mm Pro-M MAF and bought the Mafterburner type device that would allow you to lean it out or richen it up. Basically a hack way of tuning, which I was willing to try since at the time, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from as far as custom burned chips or Xcal2's. Put the car on the dyno to find out that the Mafterburner was adjusting the A/F backwards, so it'd go rich when I leaned it out and vise versa. For the money that you're spending, you might as well do your basic intake, and get an Xcal2 tune where you can make small adjustments.
Mark
The problem us 6 owners have is we have that "new-fangled" CAN protocol, which leaves Xcal2 and Predator and all the rest about dead in the water.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106
Addicted CEG\'er
|
|
Addicted CEG\'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 6,106 |
Originally posted by Twisted6:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
I bought a 75mm Pro-M MAF and bought the Mafterburner type device that would allow you to lean it out or richen it up. Basically a hack way of tuning, which I was willing to try since at the time, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from as far as custom burned chips or Xcal2's. Put the car on the dyno to find out that the Mafterburner was adjusting the A/F backwards, so it'd go rich when I leaned it out and vise versa. For the money that you're spending, you might as well do your basic intake, and get an Xcal2 tune where you can make small adjustments.
Mark
The problem us 6 owners have is we have that "new-fangled" CAN protocol, which leaves Xcal2 and Predator and all the rest about dead in the water.
So there's no way of tuning the Mazda6?? Man that sucks!
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
So there's no way of tuning the Mazda6?? Man that sucks!
Mark
Other than through the CPe MAF box and Unichip, nope, but our latest shimmer of hope comes from Sniper Tuning who has taken an interest lately.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
The CAN protocol shouldn't be stopping SCT ... contact them and PROVE that the platform has a performance following and they might develop an XCal2 interface cable/software for your platform.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
Got the baseline today, 174hp/146tq. I also did a wideband 02. And I also stopped by CPE and spoke to them again and it looks like I'll put some money down toward a set in about a month or so.
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
Originally posted by 69Boss302:
Got the baseline today, 174hp/146tq. I also did a wideband 02. And I also stopped by CPE and spoke to them again and it looks like I'll put some money down toward a set in about a month or so.
That's a "stock" SVT numbers? Sounds about right for the 2.5. Now think about this ... the 3.0L's primary tubes should be slightly larger than those of a 2.5L (ala SHM) ... I predict that if you put 3.0L headers on a 2.5L engine, you MIGHT actually gain a few HP, but don't expect the numbers above baseline that the 3.0L is putting out ... again, this is all assuming that their headers are optimized for flow on the 3.0L. I would also care to say on a 2.5L compared to MSDS headers, I would give MSDS the edge because they are application spicific sized whereas the CPE's are sized for a 3.0L (I would hope). Soo ... thanks for the effort, but I think your efforts will be fruitless at solving the MSDS vs CPE hp/tq/$ ratio debate ... but they will solve the fitment debate. HOWEVER, if those number are for a 3.0L SVT, you have other problems!
Last edited by fastcougar; 01/13/06 09:57 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by fastcougar:
The CAN protocol shouldn't be stopping SCT ... contact them and PROVE that the platform has a performance following and they might develop an XCal2 interface cable/software for your platform.
GreenNuggs can tell you the four-five month ordeal we went through with SCT and the XCal2, it was all done through Draxas, alot of hype and no delivery from SCT. They did prove they can work with CAN by delivering the S197 Mustang with one, our presence was there, we had Draxas on our side working with SCT, but they just kept putting us off.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Well, they need to get this CAN stuff figured out soon, I think all new cars since '03 have had it.
This makes me think about what it will take to mod my S40 because it has the CAN type bus. There are people that already have it figured out.
I'm hoping my Volvo S40 can share software designed for the new Ford Focus RS in Europes since Ford has seen fit to slap in the new Volvo compact 5 cylinder turbo from the S40 directly into the new focus. It might make it easier to get performance stuff. Since it shares the same platform with the new Focus and Mazda3, I expect a ton of parts available. Although from the frame up they use differen't stuff, things like suspension shouldn't change a whole lot.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,336 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,071 |
My only goal in doing this is to see if they fit or what it will take to get these to fit. The dyno stuff is for geewizz info really. And yes, it is a stock 2.5 and not a 3L. Yet...
Former - 98 CSVT E0 T-Red 4/4/97 #173 of 6535
Dear Santa
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240
CEG\'er
|
|
OP
CEG\'er
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 240 |
Originally posted by 69Boss302:
My only goal in doing this is to see if they fit or what it will take to get these to fit. The dyno stuff is for geewizz info really. And yes, it is a stock 2.5 and not a 3L. Yet...
Any update on your goal? Because the first production batch (sold) for the Mazda6 shipped out last Friday.
Driving the Caliber
Side project: The LT-5 Fiero is being born..
|
|
|
|
|
