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Originally posted by akrump47:
It kills me how people cannot bear the idea of 0.20 per gallon to keep their engine running their best, but will gladly spend their money on other "unecessary" things like cigarettes, food, booze, etc. Seriously, I'm SURE there are other ways to save a farking $2.40 per week, that putting cheap gas in your car which might cause engine problems in the long term. 
EXACTLY!! People piss away $2.40 without even thinking about it. $.70 into the vending machine here, buying a soda at the gas station there, etc.. Are you going to be that much more outraged over a $35.00 gas bill, than you would a $32.00 gas bill? Gas prices are high and you're taking it in the arse, but it's not like going to regular gas is going to lube you up for the bill! 
And for anyone to say that they are going to take that $2.40 that they saved and put it into a piggy bank, or a seperate savings account, they're full of crap!
Mark
2000 Black CSVT
3.0L Hybrid - 206fwhp & 195fwtq
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Joined: Jul 2005
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correct me if im wrong but....iirc engine knock can and has ruined an engine....so that 2.40 actually becomes more like $2500 to fix the motor...definately worth the savings!...im gonna go fill up with 87 octane right now....
-Shawn
2000 Contour SVT
#1567
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Joined: May 2004
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Blowing up the engine is a good way to justify a 3L conversion.
1998 Contour SVT Black w/ Blue interior
Torsen LSD updated shiftforks
Lightened Flywheel, HD Drivelines
Optimized Thottle Body
2003 3.0L engine upgrade (Soon to be)
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Joined: Jul 2005
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Originally posted by Bugzuki:
Blowing up the engine is a good way to justify a 3L conversion.
oh great thats all i need...a GOOD reason to damage my engine...my wifes gonna love me hangin around you folks...lmao
2000 Contour SVT
#1567
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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I've been avoiding this thread, but now I'll jump in.
I'm extremely picky about how I take care of my cars.
I have a lot of accumulated experience with many high performance cars.
I have a lot of knowledge gained from schooling as well as from personal experience about taking care of cars.
I run 87 octane in my SVT.
I'm not crazy or ignorant. I know what I'm doing.
I have run both 87 and 91 (highest available in California) in it enough to determine that there is absolutely no difference in how it runs or what the fuel consumption is.
As long as I can tell no difference, I'm not spending the additional money for higher octane.
I've owned the car since new. In that time there has been only two times that ANY ping has been observed. Both times (over a year apart) it was on a warm winter day (we get a lot of those in California) with winter blend fuel. There was a very slight part throttle cackle that went away with just a very little bit more throttle. I can live with that.
This has not been the case with any other high performance car I have owned. If it needed premium fuel, it got premium fuel.
As long as I take good care of mine (agressive maintenance) and it doesn't need premium fuel, it probably won't get it.
Normal disclaimer -- your results may vary.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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So.. You're saying (as you and I have discussed on a personal basis more than once) that if you are ANALLY RETENTIVE about the maintenance you do on your car, withold nothing from the actions and cleaning you perform, and dedicate all but your first born to maintenance.... you will be fine? AKA:99.9% of the readers of this post don't perform 2/3 of the maintenance required to place anything other than premium in their car, but those who are up to par with said maintenance procedures may not experience any adverse affects.  Ray
'99 CSVT - Silver #222/276
In a constant state of blow-off euphoria.
Originally posted by Kremitthefrog:
I like to wear dresses and use binoculars to watch grandmas across the street.
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Originally posted by Big Jim:
I've been avoiding this thread, but now I'll jump in.
I'm extremely picky about how I take care of my cars.
I have a lot of accumulated experience with many high performance cars.
I have a lot of knowledge gained from schooling as well as from personal experience about taking care of cars.
I run 87 octane in my SVT.
I'm not crazy or ignorant. I know what I'm doing.
I have run both 87 and 91 (highest available in California) in it enough to determine that there is absolutely no difference in how it runs or what the fuel consumption is.
As long as I can tell no difference, I'm not spending the additional money for higher octane.
I've owned the car since new. In that time there has been only two times that ANY ping has been observed. Both times (over a year apart) it was on a warm winter day (we get a lot of those in California) with winter blend fuel. There was a very slight part throttle cackle that went away with just a very little bit more throttle. I can live with that.
This has not been the case with any other high performance car I have owned. If it needed premium fuel, it got premium fuel.
As long as I take good care of mine (agressive maintenance) and it doesn't need premium fuel, it probably won't get it.
Normal disclaimer -- your results may vary.
Just because your human ears cannot detect ping, doesn't mean it isn't happening. When you HEAR it with your own ears it is at a point where it is a BAD AS IT CAN GET. But at levels below your audible range it is STILL DAMAGING THE ENGINE. Next time you do a plug change, shine a light down the plug hole and look at the tops of the pistons. If they are speckled - which I can garantee you they will be, then YES, you are pinging and it is eroding way the face of the piston.
Jim, I'm really disappointed in you. Please don't be a stingy bastard in the name of saving $2!
When you run 87 it WILL pull timing as the knock sensor CAN detect ping even when yours ears can't. That REDUCES performance and REUDUCES mileage. If you think otherwise then you're sadly MISTAKEN. You've probably become so disensitized over the years of running 87 and are probably convincing yourself of no difference that you refuses to acknowledge the difference. For YOU only a dyno can prove that you are wrong. I have WITNESSED many SVT's trying to dyno with 87 and the operator INSTANTLY knows they are running less than premium gas as SOON as they get on it. From outside of the car we could hear ping even though the driver/operator inside the car couldn't. Also the dyno graphs told the tale - less power all across the rev range and worse as the rpms increased.
If you know say "Well I don't race the engine" or "I don't care if it makes less power" then I ask why in the hell do you have an SVT?? If it's for the looks or the leather interior then I say "Shame on you" because that's gay!
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Jim - since you have over 200K on your engine you obviously know how to take care of the car despite running less than reccomended octane - BUT - Stazi is right, there is NO WAY your engine is running at its top performance or mileage on 87. Your spark timing is retarded and you are running richer than optimum. Now if you drive it real nice never run the egine to redline at WOT, maybe you won't notice anything. But if you dyno your car on 87 and then on 93 (after the engine has appropriately "learned") then you would undoubtedly see better results on premium. Oh and why even bother running 87 winter piss blend? You yourself stated you heard a slight ping, so why even take the risk?
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Here is what is happening to Jim's engine and anyone else who is putting cheap gas in their SVT: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3604&page_number=1Some quotes from the article: "The results were more dramatic with the test cars that require premium fuel. The turbocharged Saab's sophisticated Trionic engine-control system dialed the power back 9.8 percent on regular gas, and performance dropped 10.1 percent at the track. Burning regular in our BMW M3 diminished track performance by 6.6 percent, but neither the BMW nor the Saab suffered any drivability problems while burning regular unleaded fuel." "Cheapskates burning regular in cars designed to run on premium fuel can expect to trim performance by about the same percent they save at the pump. If the car is sufficiently new and sophisticated, it may not suffer any ill effects, but all such skinflints should be ready to switch back to premium at the first sign of knock or other drivability woes." Once again I say - If you want to save $2.40 a week, why do it by retarding your car's engine performance. I could save the cost of an entire months worth of premium but not eating lunch out once a month. 
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Originally posted by akrump47:
Here is what is happening to Jim's engine and anyone else who is putting cheap gas in their SVT:
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=3604&page_number=1
Some quotes from the article:
"The results were more dramatic with the test cars that require premium fuel. The turbocharged Saab's sophisticated Trionic engine-control system dialed the power back 9.8 percent on regular gas, and performance dropped 10.1 percent at the track. Burning regular in our BMW M3 diminished track performance by 6.6 percent, but neither the BMW nor the Saab suffered any drivability problems while burning regular unleaded fuel."
"Cheapskates burning regular in cars designed to run on premium fuel can expect to trim performance by about the same percent they save at the pump. If the car is sufficiently new and sophisticated, it may not suffer any ill effects, but all such skinflints should be ready to switch back to premium at the first sign of knock or other drivability woes."
Once again I say - If you want to save $2.40 a week, why do it by retarding your car's engine performance. I could save the cost of an entire months worth of premium but not eating lunch out once a month.
This is certaily not an issue that is going to be resolved on this thread.
This idea that detenation that you cannot hear is likely to do damage is not universally accepted. For example this is a quote from page 163 of my owner's manual. "Do not be concerned if your vehicle sometimes knocks lightly. However, if it knocks heavily under most driving conditions on the recommended octane, see yhour dealer or a qualified service technician to prevent any engine damage."
Actually, Ford even taught me in their traning programs that ocassional slight or trace ping is an indication that the engine has been optimally tuned. This was before computerized engine controls though.
Actually, I'm mildly disappoited that my car was factory tuned so that premium fuel is not that critical. I'm also disappointed that there has been so little equipment wise to enable me to tinker with the settings that I used to be able to do by hand.
In my capacity as a service manager, I have worked on and driven cars that had knock sensor systems that seemed to be much more sensitive to fuel grade than my SVT. Both Volvo and BMW come to mind, where you could substantually feel the difference.
If it makes you feel comfortable to think of me as studid or misinformed, then so be it. I am neither.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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