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Originally posted by Stazi:
You're wrong. Bolts, tapered or not are NOT sufficient for wheel centering. That's why in engineering design we use bore pilots on components that need to be aligned raidally!
Have you even checked to see if the bore of the wheels you have possibly is already the correct size, thus eliminating the need for rings?  I bet when you're wheel is put onto the hub there is litle to no radial play in the interface thus you're set. But in the rest of the cases, wheel manufacturers will make the bore of their aftermarket wheels the largest size to suit the largest hub size of the vehicle that same bolt pattern, and then use hubcentric rings to resize the wheels to suit all the cars with consequently samller hub diameters.
you said what i wanted to say but im not as gifted in the art of debate.
way to stick it to him stazi 
2000 SVT Contour. Black. #1889 of 2150.
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Originally posted by Stazi:
You're wrong. Bolts, tapered or not are NOT sufficient for wheel centering. That's why in engineering design we use bore pilots on components that need to be aligned raidally!
Have you even checked to see if the bore of the wheels you have possibly is already the correct size, thus eliminating the need for rings?
Have you seen the hub size of a Miata? It ain't big. Please explain to me why four tapered bolts (remembering that three define a plane) are insufficient to centering a lugnut onto a stud? Because, after all, that's what we're truly doing. Even a hub centering ring only sets the radius, the lugnuts still could be several degrees off radially until they're torqued down.
Some calculations here: http://www.idsfa.net/miata/lugnuts/page1.jpg and http://www.idsfa.net/miata/lugnuts/page2.jpg
Whirling dervish of FFOG.
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oh gezzzzzzz. calculations?! are you serious? here is my calculation...me before hubcentric rings=  me after hubcentric rings=  solved. 
Oo (xxx)oO
o xxxxxxxx o
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Originally posted by weargle:
Originally posted by Stazi:
You're wrong. Bolts, tapered or not are NOT sufficient for wheel centering. That's why in engineering design we use bore pilots on components that need to be aligned raidally!
Have you even checked to see if the bore of the wheels you have possibly is already the correct size, thus eliminating the need for rings?
Have you seen the hub size of a Miata? It ain't big. Please explain to me why four tapered bolts (remembering that three define a plane) are insufficient to centering a lugnut onto a stud? Because, after all, that's what we're truly doing. Even a hub centering ring only sets the radius, the lugnuts still could be several degrees off radially until they're torqued down.
Some calculations here: http://www.idsfa.net/miata/lugnuts/page1.jpg and http://www.idsfa.net/miata/lugnuts/page2.jpg
I assume that you think you know something because you showed up someone else's math... I see nothing in there that proves anything about hubcentric rings. That lengthy calculation shows that the friction between the wheel and the car will hold the wheel on once the nuts are tightened.
It has nothing to do with centering the wheel whatsoever.
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Three parallel lines do not set up any plane perpendicular to them. Where did you learn your GD&T.
To create a plane you need three points and if all the points do not have a common coordinate (X,Y or Z) the plane will not be parallel to a certain axis.
The the tapered lug and seatss will center themselves to a point where they cannot overcome the contact friction anymore, so if the loci of two circles are off as the torque is applied the will never coincide. Youy are purely LUCKY if you get them all to center. If this were not true why on earth do you think wheel manufacturers would make pilots on hubs and also hubcentric rings for wheels. No one does anything for free or for sh!ts and giggles. Everything has a purpose!
LUG NUTS and/or STUDS are not toleranced (geometrically) accurately enough to provide the correct centering of a wheel to a hub. don't make to scan a hub print to prove it!
Dude, I design hubs and wheel bearings for trucks. I think I know.........
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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So let me get the straight, Stazi. What you are saying is that the friction from the hub/wheel interface (that he just proved to be so strong) will overwhelm the centering force that the tapered lug nuts have, and leave the wheel off-center, just a little bit? That without a hub-centric ring to get that position right before the nuts are tightened, the tapered nuts get it close, but not close enough, since they lack the leverage to center the wheel that last little bit once they start squeezing the wheel on the hub? Makes sense to me. As a matter of fact, I could prove that this happens, using the equations he gave, if he feels you have too little experience with wheels to know what you are talking about. 
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You forgot to use the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] code. 
PS did I not state that the friction of the two forces was the load bearer and NOT the studs and NOT the hub pilot?
It works like this:
Hub pilot and wheel bore center the wheel to the hub
Lugs provide the clamp force
The frinction between the wheel back-face and the hub face carry the load.
End of story.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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Originally posted by Stazi:
It works like this:
Hub pilot and wheel bore center the wheel to the hub.
Lugs provide the clamping force.
The friction between the wheel back-face and the hub face carries the load.
End of story.
FAQ that, so we never hear this again!
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Originally posted by 95Sleeper:
I assume that you think you know something because you showed up someone else's math... I see nothing in there that proves anything about hubcentric rings. That lengthy calculation shows that the friction between the wheel and the car will hold the wheel on once the nuts are tightened.
It has nothing to do with centering the wheel whatsoever.
Good Lord, would you like for me to do my own math instead? That math proves that the rings do not hold any of the weight load of the car. Period. Ergo, a properly torqued wheel does not need them. This argument has been hashed and rehashed elsewhere on the internet time and time again.
Also, I defy you to find hubcentering rings for my ATS Comp Lites that have a *tapered* inner bore. (I'll give you a hint, there aren't any) Not every automobile manufacturer uses hubcentric wheels and/or hubcentering rings. The only application where I can say that they are necessary is for Bimmers et al that use lug bolts.
Needless to say, going back to the OP's question, hubcentricity is not responsible for his vibration.
Whirling dervish of FFOG.
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Originally posted by weargle:
Originally posted by 95Sleeper:
I assume that you think you know something because you showed up someone else's math... I see nothing in there that proves anything about hubcentric rings. That lengthy calculation shows that the friction between the wheel and the car will hold the wheel on once the nuts are tightened.
It has nothing to do with centering the wheel whatsoever.
Good Lord, would you like for me to do my own math instead? That math proves that the rings do not hold any of the weight load of the car. Period. Ergo, a properly torqued wheel does not need them. This argument has been hashed and rehashed elsewhere on the internet time and time again.
Also, I defy you to find hubcentering rings for my ATS Comp Lites that have a *tapered* inner bore. (I'll give you a hint, there aren't any) Not every automobile manufacturer uses hubcentric wheels and/or hubcentering rings. The only application where I can say that they are necessary is for Bimmers et al that use lug bolts.
Needless to say, going back to the OP's question, hubcentricity is not responsible for his vibration.
NO! I see what the math says! It states that the rings hold zero weight AFTER THE LUGS ARE TIGHT. No one ever said anything different here. We are not saying that the rings are needed after the nuts are on. It's just that the nuts themselves don't provide enough centering force. Read the thread before you post a rebuttal and make yourself look even dumber!
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