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Because I have a CF hood, I should run in SM right? There are a couple other little things that I think rule me out from other classes as well. I ran in DSP and if I run again I'll probably be in the same class again. If I thought I was ever gonna be competitive then yeah, I'd correct them.
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
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Yes, I believe the CF hood kicks you out of STS. I don't feel like reading through all the rules to double-check, but I was just looking a couple days ago.
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Yes the CF hood does put you in SM.
Beaten - 2003 MazdaSpeed Protege 29K <- broken hearted
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98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15
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The rulebook is free, you know. You can download it at www.scca.org
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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I read the rules Roger, but I was making sure, if that's ok. Sorry that I wanted clarification.
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
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I find that rather humorous that the CF hood puts you into the same class as me. I still think there should be some room for interpretation or reclassification at the event director's discretion.
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PLEASE HELP ME GET MY CAR TOGETHER! ITS IN DAYTON OHIO! I need the motor together and in the car so i can DRIVE it! Pleeeeeese!
diamond pistons for 3.0/forsale
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Because a turbo 3 liter and a atx zetec shouldn't be in the same class...
Cameron
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I read the rules Roger, but I was making sure, if that's ok. Sorry that I wanted clarification.
Lighten up, Francis.
By the wording of your original post, it did not seem as though you had seen the rulebook. In the past, this was common, as the "moutons" site was the only thing out there (and horribly out of date), and the rule book was $20 or more. So, a lot of people didn't have the rulebook yet and needed basic info.
When I need clarification on a rule, I try to make it clear that I've read section whatever, but I'm not sure how to interpret it. Kind of like saying, "I searched, but I couldn't find..."
I wasn't flaming you, or trying to be an ass. I thought, perhaps, that you hadn't realized that the rulebook was now available for free off of the SCCA website, since that is a new feature for 2005.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Originally posted by SVTatGT:
Because a turbo 3 liter and a atx zetec shouldn't be in the same class...
I don't think that there should be any flexibility, because any stretching means everyone wants to cheat the rules. There are implications since you can go from local to national, and you can't work your way up through the ranks in different classes. I understand what you are saying, it sucks he can't be locally competitive, but he didn't have auto-x in mind when he build up his car. The whole point of the local races is to have fun, and you can do that without being competitive.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, I hate those threads, so don't think I'm calling you out, I just wanted to say I think the rules are great the way they are. It takes a lot of modding with auto-x intent to get a really competitive car, so if someone picks one little mod that throws them into a higher category, then oh well. I have 16x7s on my car, so I'm in STS, even though I could get spanked by an SVT in GS.
Just my ΓΆβ??Β¬0.02.
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Sorry, Francis. (Not sure why you wanna call me that, but I reckon it's a mutual term)
I take comments like "you know" as being sorta smartass like. The only way I knew that a CF hood puts me in SM is because I read the rules, obviously no one told me Sunday when I was placed in DSP.
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
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That sorta makes sense. If you're trying to be competitive you're gonna stick to the rules of the class you wanna run in. You're also not gonna drive an atx zetec. 
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
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I meant more flexibility in things like aesthetic mods or simple bolt-ons. Yes you can keep a strictly bone-stock class if you want, but a majority of people do a few aesthetic or simple bolt on mods like an open filter intake, CF hood, different rims and bang they get classed into something they are going to not be competitive in.
Basically I think the rules are really punishing a majority of the people that the SCCA is targeting to grow it's membership and really catering to the more hardcore guys that are there every weekend trying to squeeze every last 10th out of a particular setup to the Nth degree for one class.
Rick
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CF hood can be lighter than stock hood. If you let people run CF hoods then in order to have a competive car you would need to have a CF hood (weight matters). The CF hood is the only one there that bumps you to a real hard class. The other mods would just put you into STS.
I have seen a different ruleset (either midwest of Canada I think) that give points based on different mods (like replacement hood +2 points, different wheels +1 point) and how many points you have determines your class I would guess they also class cars but I dont remember the whole ruleset.
If you are just a weekend person out there to have fun what do you care about what class you are in or how you place in the class you go into? Just run for fun with your friends and see who is the better driver.
I know at least one local driver that switched cars just to be competetive in Stock class AutoXing.
Beaten - 2003 MazdaSpeed Protege 29K <- broken hearted
Daily/Weekend Beater - 1990 miata 138K - AutoX every weekend = Adult driven on weekends
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Originally posted by Buckshot77:
I meant more flexibility in things like aesthetic mods or simple bolt-ons. Yes you can keep a strictly bone-stock class if you want, but a majority of people do a few aesthetic or simple bolt on mods like an open filter intake, CF hood, different rims and bang they get classed into something they are going to not be competitive in.
Basically I think the rules are really punishing a majority of the people that the SCCA is targeting to grow it's membership and really catering to the more hardcore guys that are there every weekend trying to squeeze every last 10th out of a particular setup to the Nth degree for one class.
Rick
I agree if SCCA want to be more friendly to the new generation of car guys (kids in hondas), they should allow more basic mods. I think STS does this well, and the CF hood is a weight reducer, so where do you stop? Can they replace anything with something lighter? I think the rules could use some tweaking to allow more street-oriented cars to run competitively, but it's also not good to make the rules more complicated. I say, let those who care, win. Odds are the people with the specialized auto-x setups are going to be unbeatable because they throw on their super-light 15s and rip it up every weekend, and they are very good at driving their car. If a hard-core auto-xer in an SVT swapped cars with a noob in an auto zetec, I bet they would still win. It's no big deal to me to have those two in the same class. If we all really wanted to win auto-x races, we could be driving celicas and honda civics with newer motors, like most of the winners do. The contour is not a winning auto-x car, but it is a really fun one, and that's all that matters to me.
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I think what I was more getting at was a lot of the newer generation while they are there for fun, are also there to have something to show for their effort. If you get creamed every time by some guy who does nothing but auto-x but you're stuck in his class becuase you lost 20 lbs off your front end by putting on a CF hood, then it's not going to be that fun for you. I think some more run what you brung type classes for those who choose to or for auto-x novices would be the best solution. Shoot, I'm an auto-x newb myself because it's been several years since I've done any and at that I've probably only been in 3 or 4 actual cone courses in my life. However, with the car setup I've got and the fact I know how to drive it pretty well I think I'd be able to hold my own.
I'm really just trying to advocate on the younger generation that the SCCA is trying to cater to, I think the rules need some leniancy or change. I like the idea posted above based on a point system. This is basically how we ran our high speed auto-x. Basically you had a certain number of items that once combined would bump you to the next higher class, but below that you could do various things.
Rick
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Originally posted by Buckshot77:
I think what I was more getting at was a lot of the newer generation while they are there for fun, are also there to have something to show for their effort. If you get creamed every time by some guy who does nothing but auto-x but you're stuck in his class becuase you lost 20 lbs off your front end by putting on a CF hood, then it's not going to be that fun for you. I think some more run what you brung type classes for those who choose to or for auto-x novices would be the best solution. Shoot, I'm an auto-x newb myself because it's been several years since I've done any and at that I've probably only been in 3 or 4 actual cone courses in my life. However, with the car setup I've got and the fact I know how to drive it pretty well I think I'd be able to hold my own.
I'm really just trying to advocate on the younger generation that the SCCA is trying to cater to, I think the rules need some leniancy or change. I like the idea posted above based on a point system. This is basically how we ran our high speed auto-x. Basically you had a certain number of items that once combined would bump you to the next higher class, but below that you could do various things.
Rick
I really like the idea of multiple items. It makes things more complicated, but would even it out. I feel sorta ripped for being in STS for my wheels. (16x7) I would definetly support a change to the SCCA rules along those lines.
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Not so much an idea as just a different set of rules but dont go looking for the SCCA to be adopting that ruleset anytime in the near future (it has been suggested on the SCCAForums before).
Different SCCA regions do different things. The local region (D.C.) is more strict and only runs national classes. Other regions come up with their own classes that may or may not follow national SCCA rules (see the difference between ST2 and STS2 for example)
When I started AutoXing (last summer) my only mods were a Short Shifter and 16X7 wheels. This put me in STS. I got my ass kicked by half the class and suprised the hell out of the other half (ok I suprised the hell out of more than just the bottom half of the class) with what a basicaly stock car could do. I knew that to be competitive in STS I would need to get better springs than the stock SE ones and and better shocks than my 142,000 miles old ones. My car ended up dieing and I got a miata instead of upgrading my car this winter. I now know what mods to make or avoid making if I want to stay in different classes for AutoX.
Beaten - 2003 MazdaSpeed Protege 29K <- broken hearted
Daily/Weekend Beater - 1990 miata 138K - AutoX every weekend = Adult driven on weekends
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Sorry, Francis. (Not sure why you wanna call me that, but I reckon it's a mutual term)
"Stripes?" Bill Murray? "Boom chakalakalaka...?"
Ah hell. "I'm gettin' too old for this shi...!!"
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Sunday about 11 cars from Statesboro drove 45 minutes to auto-x. Not everyone ran (2 broke down and couldn't) but atleast 6 of us did. A few of the guys go to it every chance they get, but none of us care about being competitive or if another car beats us. We just went because it was fun and you can make yourself a better driver.
Now, I do think some changes to the rules may be needed. I think even if I had the stock hood, I'd still have to run in SM. Why? Because I have no seat belt (have a harness) and I have aftermarket end links. Unless I read the rules wrong (which I may very well have), this combination excludes me from the other classes.
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
WTB: Very cheap beater
CEG Dragon Run - October 13-15
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Sunday about 11 cars from Statesboro drove 45 minutes to auto-x. Not everyone ran (2 broke down and couldn't)...
That's just pathetic. Doesn't speak well of the platform if 2 of 11 cars can't be driven for 45 minutes...
(I'm assuming they're Contiques)
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by RogerB:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Sorry, Francis. (Not sure why you wanna call me that, but I reckon it's a mutual term)
"Stripes?" Bill Murray? "Boom chakalakalaka...?"
Ah hell. "I'm gettin' too old for this shi...!!"
 Kids these days... no appreciation for the CLASSICS!!! 
I mostly go out to have fun, and work on my skills in the hopes that someday, I will either be able to afford to mod my car, or buy something more competitive. But I don't do half bad for someone on an aging stock SE suspension and almost bald all season tires. I was just a half second back from the GS winner (Focus SVT) at the last Autox. Of course, the Nationally competitive guy in the Celica wasn't there! 
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Im currently looking at the rule book and haven't seen it yet. So, what class would a tranny cooler put me in?? Or would it even make any class difference. I'd be hesitant to run the auto without a cooler that hard...
Since by the time I run I will have a K&N and maf adaptor and magnaflow resonated SVT exhaust, I think that alone will put me in STS right??
1999 Mystique LS V6
Alpine CDA-9807, Rear deck sub, Opt. TB, K&N RU-3530/MAF adaptor, custom heatshield, FSVT 17's, SCT 4-program chip, Eibach's/ST200's, Hella Fogs...
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I would not worry about the tranny cooler bumping you in class.
I dont think it will make you that much more competive with it so I would just ignore it and go with whatever class the rest of your mods would put you in.
The exhaust would be fine in stock class but the K&N (I assume this is not the dropin panel filter) would bump you to either STS or DSP.
Beaten - 2003 MazdaSpeed Protege 29K <- broken hearted
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Originally posted by moxnix:
I would not worry about the tranny cooler bumping you in class.
I dont think it will make you that much more competive with it so I would just ignore it and go with whatever class the rest of your mods would put you in.
The exhaust would be fine in stock class but the K&N (I assume this is not the dropin panel filter) would bump you to either STS or DSP.
K&N puts him in STS.
I used to be a real rules hound, but lately I'm thinking more along the lines of "who cares?"
If, say, an accusump stands between me and major engine failure, then why shouldn't I run it? It has absolutely zero effect on my course times.
Sure, I'd be honest about it, and if I ended up in DSP, so what? It's not like I'm trying to be nationally competitive. If I were, I'd pick a different car and dedicate it to the task. Meanwhile, I get to have fun, vs worrying about my engine.
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Sunday about 11 cars from Statesboro drove 45 minutes to auto-x. Not everyone ran (2 broke down and couldn't)...
That's just pathetic. Doesn't speak well of the platform if 2 of 11 cars can't be driven for 45 minutes...
(I'm assuming they're Contiques)
11 contiques? No no no. I'm the only person doing anything with a contour around here. One was a 240 with sr20det. He didn't exactly break down. He lost one of his inner fender linings on the highway, not a big deal. Then got a flat, can't run on a spare. Another was an accord (guy's DD, he's working on getting his sr20det 240 running again) and he did a "burnout" in the grass when we are the side of the highway after the other car's fender lining flew off. It fried the clutch.
Jim, you know there's not even 11 contiques in all of Georgia that are CEGers, auto-xers,etc., much less Statesboro.
98.5 SVT
91 Escort GT (almost sold)
96 ATX Zetec (i brake to watch you swerve)
FS: SVT rear sway bar
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Sunday about 11 cars from Statesboro drove 45 minutes to auto-x. Not everyone ran (2 broke down and couldn't)...
That's just pathetic. Doesn't speak well of the platform if 2 of 11 cars can't be driven for 45 minutes...
(I'm assuming they're Contiques)
Jim, you know there's not even 11 contiques in all of Georgia that are CEGers, auto-xers,etc., much less Statesboro.
Phew! I feel better now.... I think. 
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Im not doing the tranny cooler as a performance thing. So, I really don't see why it would make any difference. If anything it'd make me slower due to more weight...  Course if my tranny blew up... I'd be the slowest car there...  Yes, I did mean an open-element K&N (RU-3530). Thanks guys...
1999 Mystique LS V6
Alpine CDA-9807, Rear deck sub, Opt. TB, K&N RU-3530/MAF adaptor, custom heatshield, FSVT 17's, SCT 4-program chip, Eibach's/ST200's, Hella Fogs...
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"Sunday about 11 cars from Statesboro drove 45 minutes to auto-x. Not everyone ran (2 broke down and couldn't)..."
Hmmmm, I drove 90 minutes to compete with 302 others in Oakland CA...
Not many of use have thoughts of winning the Bay Area Championship but some do.. Most of us just enjoy trying to improve our skills..
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Originally posted by 95Sleeper:
so if someone picks one little mod that throws them into a higher category, then oh well. I have 16x7s on my car, so I'm in STS, even though I could get spanked by an SVT in GS.
Just my ΓΆβ??Β¬0.02.
I love how a short throw shifter bumps you a class yet in "stock" you can run super sticky DOT tires. The shifter might save .0000003 seconds on that one shift into second yet the tires get you 2+ seconds. This is where the SCCA is completely whacked--a mod with virtually no measurable gain is illegal.
The SCCA is going to die if it doesn't wise up to the fact that their car classifications and allowable modifications are incredibly dated. Don't even get me started on IT and RX7's. Then there's the BEST class for newbies, Spec Miata, how long did it take for the SCCA to wake up to that 
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
Don't even get me started on IT and RX7's.
Sorry, but I've got to get you started on that. I have plans to get an RX-7, so what is the deal with those in SCCA??
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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The fact that a 20+ year old car is *the* car to have. How does that make ANY sense? Automotive technology hasn't evolved in 20 years to eclipse the RX7?
It's a perfect example of how the SCCA is structured for the sole benefit of a few, well-organized members. Just like when the SCCA quickly outlawed the Z4 at the Runoffs after Miata owners got their panties in a twist when the Bimmers started destroying them.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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There is certainly a lot of difficulty in leveling the playing field in any arena, and it is impossible with automobiles. You could potentially organize classes to level stock cars, but then some take mods better... Autoxing is very, very biased. Start listing classes from either end of the spectrum in each class, and looking at the available mods, and it becomes clear that the rules are horrendously skewed. I don't like the cars I class against, but I can't see how to fix it. If you start making rules too tight, you end up with all the cars being nearly identical, like most pro racing. What I would really like? Contour only racing. 6cyl and 4cyl classes, and then a few mod divisions. But the contour will never get there. If you want model-specific competition, you need a BMW, Porsche, RX-7 or Miata. SCCA cannot, and does not try to provide a fair handicap for every Civic, Jetta, Contour, 6, Coupe GT, and F-350 Super Duty. The part that does suck is the resistance to cars that have the potential to blow away Miatas and RX-7s. They were great cars when they came out, but just aren't the top of their class today. (Sound like the 'tour?) If I had spent the last 10 or more years tweaking my Wankel, I'd hate the new competition. Well, that was a lot of ranting. I'm pissed that I'm not able to compete nationally against others, I'm pissed that I'll never have a shot at a local trophy because I have a near-stock car in STS. But I forgive and forget it all because without SCCA, I would never get to race my car at all. The fact that the local clubs have such dedicated (Mazda-driving) members that they can convince a stadium or airport to let us race makes me give them a carte blanche to dick me over on my competition. I give anyone more serious or involved than me full permission to [censored] about the rules, and I don't say that complaining about a CF hood rendering them impotent as a serious competitor is unfair, so don't flame my post too much... this is just how I feel.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 7 |
You wrote: Originally posted by 95Sleeper:
I'm pissed that I'm not able to compete nationally against others, I'm pissed that I'll never have a shot at a local trophy because I have a near-stock car in STS. But I forgive and forget it all because without SCCA, I would never get to race my car at all. The fact that the local clubs have such dedicated (Mazda-driving) members that they can convince a stadium or airport to let us race makes me give them a carte blanche to dick me over on my competition. I give anyone more serious or involved than me full permission to [censored] about the rules, and I don't say that complaining about a CF hood rendering them impotent as a serious competitor is unfair, so don't flame my post too much... this is just how I feel.
Perhaps you should take a different approach. We have been competing a 97 Mystique(Bone Stock) for 4 years and great success in G/S. The only cost is the tires(DOT).The car sticks like glue. The SCCA classes does not favior the V-6 Mystique, but with experience, and a great deal of good luck, my wife, came up Second Place in the TransLouisianaAutocrossChallenge. She was Second to a Miata in the Ladies Challenge. With the SCCA handicap she pulled off a win over a Dodge Viper. So we have no problems with the SCCA. It is very difficult to obtain good sites, here in Louisiana we are greatful for what we got.
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 751
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 751 |
Originally posted by SVTatGT:
Because a turbo 3 liter and a atx zetec shouldn't be in the same class...
Why? Should the SCCA have 483 different classes? The rules are there so that they can be pushed to the limit. If you want to win, you buy a car that has been proven to win in that class and prep it as far as you can. If you bring a butter knife to a howitzer party, you will lose. Don't whine because you have a non-competitive car if you want to win.
That being said, learn how to drive it. Run what you brung if you will. Locally, you might do well, but the rules aren't designed for the local driver, they're for national competitors.
Look at GS, STS and ESP (where the Contours were located) nationally. There are zero Contours. Celica GT's, 1989 Civic Si's and Camaros/STi's rule there. In DSP, they will not beat E30/E36 BMWs.
But to address another posters lament about STS, you should embrace it. You have the opportunity to gain spring rates, camber and a rear bar, all for under $600 and *cannot* run DOT race tires. And this rawks. 
Whirling dervish of FFOG.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,516
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,516 |
I wasn't whining. I don't own an atx zetec, nor have i ever done autox. I was simply pointing out that an atx zetec vs a turbo 3l is not a fair race. Nothing more, nothing less.
BTW, welcome to last week.
Cameron
98 Black CSVT #2958
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 751
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 751 |
Then why bother posting in an autocross thread? (You didn't have to try and be snippy either, so I'll take the high road and not respond)
Whirling dervish of FFOG.
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