Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Duratec Performance Incredible Exhaust System (repost)

OOPS! Screwed up and put this in the wrong part of the forum earlier. I was also typing and talking to a friend at the same time so I left some stuff out, Like perforfance stats:
Stock Exhaust - 143 FWHP
Borla Exhaust - 139 FWHP
SCA Exhaust - 144 FWHP
CarDoc - 148 FWHP

Left this out too, seems to be a really overrated topic here.
Crush Bends versus Mandrel Bends
I would love to have a $1000 mandrel bent custom system but unlike the rest of the planet, I have other bills to pay. I am stuck with what I can afford. You have to understand that 2.5 liter engine is ONLY 155 cubic inches, even with the necking down of a crush bend the flow area is still about 4.2", at the narrowest, this is enough flow area for 355 cubic inches or 5.7 liters. I know that my car sounds better, runs better, and is definitely quicker. Enough about that, on to my original post.

Just thought I would tell you guys about this incredible exhaust system I found last year. I had been searching for about two years for a decent system, from the SCA, Borla and the Bassini they were all way overpriced and the sound was still not right. I was very disappointed until I heard the CarDoc Exhaust System, it was fantastic! I have had the CarDoc Exhaust System installed on my car since September 2001, and to put it lightly, it ROCKS! It is the healthiest sounding exhaust system I have ever had on any car I have owned, and I have owned some killer cars, rat motor Camaros, 440cid Plymouth Fury, small block Corvette, all the way down to a 1.6L Isuzu Stylus XS (a hot little car). All of them had custom exhausts (among other things). This of all of them, sounds the best at idle, midrange, and at full song.
The problem with the factory exhaust along with every other exhaust system that copies the factory layout (Bassini, Borla, SCA) have the same tinny, raspy, ricy ringing sound. It is because of the Y split at the back of the car right before the mufflers. It seems that the exhaust pulses of the engine hammer against the split (the exhaust is forced to make a 90 degree bend) and make the whole exhaust system ring like a bell, or resonate. No matter how trick your mufflers are, or how expensive your mandrel bends are, you cannot get rid of the sound unless you get rid of the Y split. Cardoc's system does this, and does it very well, it really is a trick system. The bends are minimal, and high flowing, the muffler is very heavy duty it is a single in, dual out.
The sound, Ahhh, the sound, imagine a burbly deep idle, a rumbly mid-range, and an almost Ferrari V12 scream at full throttle. There is no raspy, Honda fart-can sounds to be found in this system, this is a take no prisoners, go for broke, hairy-chested, rock-crushing exhaust system. If you are the type of person that likes to remain discrete and undercover this is not the system for you!
There is also some unexpected perks to this exhaust, my SVT is now quieter! Yes it sounds strange but the car is now quieter from the front! It seems that the ringing sound the stock exhaust system (or any of its many copies) makes is gone forever, the back end now has a rich deep burbly idle, a beautiful sound! I have confirmed this about a dozen times now at three different get-togethers with fellow SVT owners. It seems that ringing is a big part of the noise at the front of the car, you can now hear the DOHC sound much clearer at full song. Take a look at it, it is low-cost $350, a great deal!
-RoxRocket

What kind of mufflers is that setup running? I too just got the back Y modified with Magnaflows and now I wanna know how to get rid of the wind noise at highway speed.

Those numbers are fairly low for an SVT. Do you have any dyno scans we can take a look at?

Forgive for typing while sleepy and on meds!!

JEEZ!! Man when I screw up I screw up! My roomate and I went to the dyno on the same day to do this thrash with the exhaust systems for a friend of mine, she was invited because she has a 98 Contour SE 2.5 Auto! Well, I blindly pasted from an email I sent my brother without looking, sorry guys here is the real stuff:
Stock Exhaust - 171 FWHP
Borla Exhaust - 173 FWHP
SCA Exhaust - 169 FWHP
CarDoc - 177 FWHP

Sorry for Fu@*ing up so badly!

LBVSVT Asks:
"What kind of mufflers is that setup running? I too just got the back Y modified with Magnaflows and now I wanna know how to get rid of the wind noise at highway speed."

RR Replies:
Actually it is a single in to dual out that sits where the old resonator gets pulled from, it really is a trick system! To see pictures of the prototype go to the fordcontour.org board and look for the cardoc exhaust system.

BTW LBVSVT, What "wind noise" are you talking about? Please explain!

Thanks all!

-RoxRocket

Ahhh, so did you actually try all those exhausts on the same car in one dyno session?? Both SCA and Borla shown to gain more power than you are showing on an SVT...Your endorsement for the CarDoc system is impressive, almost "advertisement" like. And the first numbers are from an ATX SE??? Pretty good numbers....
But, you like it and thats what counts.

The windnoise is what I hear now, instead of the exhaust. I went from a droney SHO Y setup with stock SVT mufflers to a modified stock Y with Magnaflows out back. The new set up is quieter, so I'm hearing more whoooshing ...

Let's see some dyno graphs and then I'll believe you, until then it's just more unsubstantiated claims.

Well, I'll back RoxRocket up on at least once claim, and that's the fact that the cardoc exhaust setup is THE best sounding exhaust system I've ever heard in person on a 2.5L Duratec.

Mangler has it on his car, and it really is tha bomb! Whenever I hear it, I am enormously jealous.

As far as gains go, I can't really quantify them, but it sure helped his ride out, and it is definitely better than stock. You can't go wrong with a single 2.5" in and dual 2" outs to the back.

Ya I have bassani now! but I have been to a few ohio meets with cardoc! His exhaust is very impressive. The sound is great, I love my bassani though!

Damn those are some very low numbers! (oops, guess you've changed your story already!)

$1000 for a mandrel bent exhaust... Boy are you confused...
I built a mandrel bent exhaust for under $300.
$600 for high quality stainless units.

Borla dropping power???
Even though there are numerous dyno's showing gains every time!

4.2" pipe??? huh?
Do you mean that crush bending a 2.5" pipe at 90 degrees effectively makes it a 2.1" pipe (stock is 2.25" mandrel BTW) That's a power loss in any book. Not including the added weight of running 2 sets of larger pipe all the way to the back (a good 20lbs added or 3HP/TQ lost due to weight!)

Without testing the same car on the same dyno with these different setup your comparrisons are moot. The 177HP is a good showing, but I will openly bet you it would be higher with a better system (which would be anything - even stock sans resonator!)
Plus dropping that extra weight off the car would make it quicker, faster, and handle better!

I haven't heard CarDoc's exhaust, however thanks for the infomercial. Is this a sales pitch or what? I love my Borla,and I don't get any "tinny, raspy, ricy ringing sound." Maybe you should talk to people with the other exhausts you are knocking down ?? Just my 2-cents

Keith...

Roxrocket:

I am researching exhaust systems for my car and from the work I have done I found Cardoc's setup to be the best sounding system!

I was hoping we could talk (realtime) over ICQ or even email. I have some questions I need answered!

Thanks
Derek

ddasilva99@home.com
ICQ UIN#: 588871

I've heard a lot of good things about this system but is there anything bad or of concern that should be said?

I like to know both sides of the story!

Thanks
Derek

my SCA intake and exhaust gained me 12 hp to the tune of 175 hp at the wheels....it sounded louder and raspier with my the SHOshop y-pipe I added a year ago, but I toned it down with a glasspack. It sounds really mellow now, but with enough bark to let people know it's not stock...

To all the "Negative Nellies" around this forum. It is because of people like you that I try not to post here, ask questions, answer questions, or recommend this board anymore!
No, this is not an infommercial, after my post I did some searching of the forum and realized that there is some forum cronies that do not appreciate CarDoc, hence a very negative slant against anything with any mention of his name. In the future any good deals I get, like the B&M shifter for $70 stays secret.
DemonSVT, 2X2.1" = 4.2", enough of the math lessons! If you were really as anal about the weight of the car, why isn't your car stripped down, it looks really nice and fully equipped! I want the name of that exhaust shop that will do a custom mandrel bent system for $300! BTW, you don't know your exhaust system is resonating (ringing) until you hear the two exhaust systems side-by-side, it is a world of difference. The ones that have heard it, know the difference! Get with it guys this is a really nice system that really enhances the powerband, and is the best sounding bar-none.

Derek D., email me at bendoso@rocketmail.com, word of caution though, I have a funny feeling that I will be a non-person here soon! The storm is gathering, I already received a few emails!

Remember Horsepower sells the car, Torque actually moves it!

-RoxRocket

Torque doesn't move anything, Horsepower is movement. Torque is "The Force", Horsepower is the movement as a result of the force. Of course, no force, no movement, but the quote says it wrong!

Not angry or anything, just hate misconceptions...

torque is a twisting force, and horsepower is a measure of torque over a period of time. the immediate neck-snapping sensation off the line is torque; what keeps you pushed back as you rev to redline is horsepower (though they are really one and the same). many explanations of the two concepts, this one I like best because it's easy to relate.

Mandrel bending on a 2.5L V6 is NOT absolutely necessary. I believe, and correct me if i'm wrong, that mandrel bending only really makes a difference on exhausts with a diameter greater than say, 2.75".

Quoted by MikeNeri from another forum...is this true?

Thanks
Derek

PS: Rocket did you get my e-mail message?

I did the exhaust myself. Back about the time Cardoc did his. He argued that crush bent was every bit as good as mandrel bent until most of the people on this board started showing him proof that it wasn't even close. (among pointing out many other things he was wrong about) He then left and formed his own clique. (another story in itself)

I (& others) asked him to do head to head dyno comparisons, but he chickened out IMO. Likely because he didn't gain anything but weight. Good thing for him too because I would have slaughtered him...

About weight. If you make maybe 3HP more than stock with the cardoc system (a big maybe) yet it weighs 20lbs more. You have gained zero real world performance. Matter of fact you have lost real world performance because the car is slower off the line and loses a little in the handling department.

BTW - My exhaust is actually lighter than the stock setup. (only a mere 8lbs for the cat-back, but 30lbs total including the Y-pipe)
2.5" mandrel bent from the Y back as well... (meaning a hair over 2.4" ID at the 90 degree bends)

Yes weight does matter a lot to these cars. If you don't think so that's just something else you are misinformed about.

BTW my car is currently field stripped; so nyah nyah When it goes back together it will be a good 70lbs lighter. Around 110lbs lighter than when I bought it. Don't even try to tell me that isn't noticeable. It's like another dozen HP/TQ in the bank! Not to mention the handling & braking benefits!

Morale of the story: Crush bends & adding weight sucks!

ok what is the website where we can check this cardoc exhaust out?

If that was true, just about every car built by Ford would have crush bends, since I assume mandrel bending is a more costly process (higher tooling charges and development costs when compared to crush bending). When it comes down to it, if Ford is doing something that costs more, it definitely has good reasons behind it. At an auto manufacturer, people fight (and I mean everything short of fisticuffs) over pennies per vehicle. Guys make careers out of shaving a few cents here and there from every aspect of manufacturing.

Well, I can't speak dyno, cause i never did dyno my car yet, but i can tell you this : the cardoc system sounds great. Period. I do have a slight drone at 3150 rpms, but its gone near 3300. Lovely burble on idle. Throaty sound below 3300, lovely multivalve melody after that. The lack of rasp and low drone are the results of removing tye rear y IMHO.

BTW, my two rear pipes on mine are 2.25, with "nasty" crush bends. But then , if you add up the total area of those 2 pipe, you end up with plenty for a 2.5L engine now don't you...

The biatch is heavy, but if I really wanted light, I would of gone for a nice single setup...

Except air flow does not work that way. Every time it is squeezed down due to a crush bend it slows down in velocity & adds more turbulence.
Repeat this process for every crush bend. Then double it for having 2 pipes. It adds up very quickly!

Crush bending is a cheap way to build exhaust and you get cheap results.

I choose performance every time!

demon, I'm no physicyist, but when a a diameter decreases, doesn't flow speed increse? A simple question from a guy who took High School physics a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.........

http://www.atlans.org/elements/fluids/pg11.html of course this is a stupid attempt to explain what I almost remember - and may apply only to liquids as air is more easily compressed than liquids(proven by the Beer Consumption - Flatulence/Belching/Urination studies - which incorparated input and output diameters - completed as the basis of my Phd) .

Finally, IMHO, mandrel bending is superior to crush bending, but like so many things in life, it is (in our Contour Exhaust Example) a very steep point of diminishing return versus cost.


Mark

Actually, the exhaust speeds up in the crushes (CFM= Area x Velocity, when CFM is constant, a decrease in area {crush bend} means the velocity must be higher. [Actually, the CFM decreases as the exhaust cools and the volume of gas is reduced, but we can ignore this for this calculation, since the decrease in volume is the same for otherwise identical length exhaust systems]) .
When you increase the speed , the resistance goes up by the square law, I.E.: 2x the velocity is 4x the resistance 2^2. So the resistance goes up in a crush bend. In addition, curves (bends) mandrel or not, increase resistance. A mandrel bend (say 8 in long 90 Deg.) is probably about the same resistance as 5 to 10 times the length of straight pipe. So 8 in. mandrel bend is like 40 in. to 80. in straight pipe in resistance (This varys depending on the roughness of the wall and other factors). A crush bend is more likely a 15 to 25 times difference. This is because the increase in velocity requires energy. Resistance and velocity increases both absorb energy.

So you are right that crush bends are less efficient than mandrel. Just wanted to get the engineering right.

No Dyno numbers yet, but the "mmars exhaust" is the best..
mmars True-Dual Exhaust

--Matt

It's not the actual crush that reduces overall flow, it's the portion directly after the crush that flares back out to the original diameter that is the turbulent restriction. The low pressure void created by the expansion after the crush bends causes backflow, if only for an instant. It is possible for this design of exhaust to be better than the stock SVT system because of the differently designed split, but it would not outperform the same Cardoc type system with mandrel bends.

Richard, you have all of the numbers, formulas, and results, but you miss one very important thing to add... Exhaust gas isn't a constant. It's a series of pulses.

mmars, very impressive duals man!!! I'll be doing something very similar!!!

Thanks! I think it sounds great and I can definitly feel a difference in power.

--Matt

Nope just the opposite assuming smooth angled reducer/enlarger the following is true. Necking down the diameter reduces pressure and incresses velocity. Necking up the diameter increases pressure but reduces velocity. Check out a book on fluid dynamics, as it's been years since i got out of school and i don't remember any of the equations.

Ok someone please post a summary of all findings...it is very confusing

Thanks
Derek

Has anyone here ever heard of Laminar flow? How about sonic waves? and the part these 2 items play in your exhaust system.

No I doubt it because everyone here looks at the face value of the diameter and the word meaning (crush) instead of the physics behind it. Laminar air flow "smooth flow" does take an effect in this area and also Poiseuille's Law also effects the given output. Thus the given output would exceed the given flow if the rate of pressure is constant which in this case it is not. Therefore there would NOT be a sufficient loss between the Mandrel and Crush bent pipes based on the fact that the open corners in a mandrel bend in effect "slow" down the where the crush bends actually "speed up" the airflow through the bends by the pressure differential acting as a doubler. No this is not backpressure persay - But a given physics force that drives the air out.

I've read this whole post and from what I've read - It all comes down to who created it. It has nothing to do with the crush or mandrel bends. This is a very poor example to make of someone who did improve on a factory design and also offers it at a decent price. Whine whine whine - And DemonSVT, what else would anyone else want besides performance for their SVT? You are truly the king of idiots for you contributory ramblings.

John

Maybe you didn't read the whole thread then.

Is there any dyno proof of before and after with cardoc's system vs stock SVT yet? (same car, same dyno)

As I said then. I am willing to bet the stock system will out perform it with less than $100 worth of changes... (resonator & rear Y-split)

...and as for me just rambling. I'll let my dyno speak for my tuning and fabrication abilities...

Something cardoc never could or would own up too...

I don't know why you folks come over here just to stir up trouble when you always get shot down the same way. With cold hard facts...

If you could see through your own arrogance Demon I believe the Doc was after sound and performance. Something that is a little bit of a fine line in these cars. Obviously you've overlooked that fact that was presented almost two years ago - Ohh... I guess that his research with using over 8 brands of mufflers and 8 hours of pipe bending and trials to get the right sound and fit goes without mention and consequence to you.

Nobody asked if the stock setup could be improved with a $100.00 in modifications. It would still not sound like his system no matter what you throw on it. As far as dyno's are concerned - I don't see you trying to win any poles in the Contour NASCAR so please take your dyno bs and give it a rest. Youd dyno sheets showing a precious extra hp will not make you faster in an autocross ... You merely waste your time and keystrokes. Your highest # of what???? Gee - Didn't someone who actually has his exhaust already present dyno data? You just have a hard time believing that something could actually be good about that system - Don't you. Give the whole thing a rest - It's terribly obvious you don't like the guy so you shoot down anything he has, Pity that he has something to offer that is pretty good and all you can do is badmouth him about it when he's not even here to defend himself.

John

I'm just voicing my opinion that his setup is far from optimal and adding that extra weight is a double negative.

I don't argue in the least it is a great sounding exhaust. It does sound very nice. However I personally don't buy an exhaust on sound alone. Peformance normally drives my choices and it is noticably lacking in this department versus numerous other options.

As for cardoc. There are many reason not to like him. None of which I will get into, nor change the hard facts against his exhaust.

I do notice that any time hard facts are brought up against cardocs "views" his groupies come out of the wood work and attack the "nay-sayers" A far too common practice I must say.

You do realize this is far from the first time any of this has come up & likely far from the last time as well unfortunately.

As for ragging on my car. Whatever makes you feel better. :rolleyes: Seems a little silly since we all own a version of the same thing.
I find it performs quite nicely in all aspects thank you.

Demon - This addresses you and the other CEG nay-sayers as you call "the followers".

I have no idea why you have a beef with Cardoctor. The stone cold facts are these - Thanks to your great "search" system I was able to find all the answers I needed.

#1. When Doc originally posted about his exhaust system he never touted that it actually created more horsepower - Only that it sounded better than factory and gave him a better performance feel. IIRC he was the FIRST person to do dual pipes around the tank (owner wise) not racing. This paved the way for the current dual exhausts knowing that it could be done and that using it on a daily basis instead of just racing was feasible. He gave everyone the idea - Posted pics, helped people that wanted the system and were trying to get them done at their local shops.

Ask anyone who has his setup or who has reproduced his setup about the actual system - You will not find one dissatisfied person. That should speak for something right there. Just because he has a difference in opinion does not mean he should be the "black sheep" of the CEG. Do you not realize that he has contributed more than just the exhaust system? He has also helped many many people in the time he was a member here. I remember when everyone was asking him questions (before I ever signed up) back when I remember he was an active member. When I signed up I never posted much because of people like you who make people out like they are truly below you. Did he screw your dog or something, because how you and others treat his name like a bad omen are only the root of all the animosity between the sites and him. I guess it's hard for you to see that because you seem like a "yes man". I had the opportunity to meet this Cardoctor last year and I learned more about my SVT in 4 hours than I ever read in 2 years of owning it. You should be sorry to lose someone of his obvious knowledge and expertise. The only reason he started his own site was to break away from this "clique" started here by a few moderators and people like you. Frankly I see why he did it and with his intelligence and resources I would be really concerned about the impact of his site will have on this one as time goes on. He is obviously trying to make a great site - You never see people getting ripped down for their ideas and the atmosphere seems pleasant instead of timid and tense.

From all this info I've collected from the many pages and pages of bs that I've sifted through on my spare time - All the guy ever did was defend himself... You all had an axe to grind with him anytime he stepped into a conversation so I don't see why him having his own site makes members here feel like he is belittling you. When even is the last time he posted here???? He is no threat to you if you have nothing to worry about right? But obviously you are worried and maybe you have a right to acting with the attitude you do.

You see my member #, you see my join date and you see my number of posts. That is directly because of posts like this. I'd rather read and move on instead of answer to posts that have no more meaning but to rip a fellow enthusiast down.

What a sad affair here - Really and truly is.

John

I just bought a '98 GL 2.0 (K&N air filter isall I've done so far). I want to improve the exhaust first, but my limited knowledge and budget plus the different views I read on this forum cause me to be confused. Is the biggest bang for the buck gotten with a slightly modified single? What exactly should be done to a single? Or should I be looking at a single to dual, and, again, what are the recommended mods in this scenario? What is this CarDoc's system, and what is the address of his web site? I'll have a lot more questions in the future, so be patient with me.

Originally posted by trapps
demon, I'm no physicyist, but when a a diameter decreases, doesn't flow speed increse? A simple question from a guy who took High School physics a long time ago in a galaxy far far away......... It may be true that the flow speed may increase after the point of restriction, however pressure will also increase behind the point of restriction, more backpressure= less hp. Does that sound right?

All of you are not seeing the complete picture. This is something that has already been posted in this forum by other members and completely overlooked.

#1. RoxRocket says "The overall pipe diameter between both pipes is enough to feed a small block.

#2. Others have pointed out the same.

Here, Let me show you school children (DemonSVT) what I'm talking about.

Take your crush bent exhaust. 2 pipes at 2.25 inches. On crush bends only the inside of the pipe is actually crushed - And true mandrel bends lose diameter on the inside of the bend also - Just not as noticable. Say the the crush in the bend reduces pipe diameter to 2". That's a 1/4" in pipe deflection. So in the worst case scenario you have two full length 2" pipes considering the defelction. Do you realize the overall total exhaust cross size is 4"?

2.0 + 2.0 = 4.0 inches. The system has more than enough capacity - The factory system has one single 2.25 pipe and a 2" neckdown at the factory Y. Using basic mathematical calculations 4" cross section is a HELL of alot bigger than the factory 2.25". Losing power from backpressure? Where in this system could you get backpressure from? You effectively doubled your factory flow right off the bat running the system at it's worst point.

Crush vs Mandrel is a very old topic. In a single 2" pipe coming from the engine back this could be a critical point. But for this setup - Using mandrel bends would NOT make any benefit.

Geez - And it didn't take a genius to figure this out, just a brain that some people seem to forget they have.

John

Ratchie, I agree with your point, but your general concept is wrong.

Two 2.25 pipes with "ugly" crush bends (effective diameter of 2 inches) will flow as much as a 2.8 inch pipe. Which is plenty for all but the most extreme blown SVTs. (Remember the infamous 3.0inch SMA system? It actually lost power over a well designed 2.5 inch system....) But its not the equivalent of a 4 inch pipe. In fact, cross sectionnal area of 2 2inch pipes is half of that of a single 4 inch pipe! But then, everyone will agree that a 4inch pipe is overkill on pretty much all svts....or street cars for that matter...

So my point (yes its coming) is that the mandrel bends would be important on the cat to muffler length on a cardoc system (to keep the inner diameter a nice even 2.5 inches), but the advantage is negligeable after that.

Bnoon, true, I left out a bunch, but I was trying to keep it short. Not only just that it is a pulse, but that the pulse's duration and frequency changes with RPM. So a system can be tuned to a cetain RPM but not all RPM's Also temperature changes (Gas laws PV1=PV2, etc). Fortunately we are 4 cycle and not 2 cycle, where the scavenging effects, reflection of pulses, etc are much more important and add to the complexity of the exhaust design.

I guess the word here is that exhausts are more then a length of pipe to keep the exhaust quiet and behind the car .

I 100% agree Mangler, does your Cardoc system have a crush bend in the front pipe before the muffler? Mine has a slight bend, but not a crush bend (Looks to be some type of alignment bend for the muffler) but there is not any type of crush there.

Anyhow - You are correct - The system should be able support a 2.5L and 3.0L and upwards

John

Dual 2.0" pipes are not the same as 4.0". You can't just add the diameters. a 2.0" pipe has a cross-sectional area of 3.14sq.in. (Pi(r)^2). Dual 2.0 inch pipes have a cross sectional area of 6.28 sq.in., which is the same as a single 2.828" pipe.

Rough generalization - But it gets the point across. You are about right.

John

Another point you are missing is the fact it "is" a quasi-dual exhaust regardless where the Y-split is.

You keep comparing the 2x 2.25" crush bent pipes to a single 2.5" pipe (or stock 2.25") which is incorrect.

His exhaust has a 2.25" stock pipe running to a muffler that splits it into 2 crush bent 2.25" pipes.
2.25" crush bent piping has an effective size around 1.88" at the 90 degree bends.

This would in effect make it smaller in flow area than the stock SVT exhaust which has 2" mandrel bent duals. Also it has the drawbacks stated previously of slowing down the air flow & causing added turbulence by repeatedly decreasing & expanding the pipe size.

Christ have Mercy! I am so fekking sick and tired of this bullshizzle. Will someone please slap down som dyno plots and put this to an end?

Until then:

SHUT YOUR PIE HOLES

No argument, no matter how foolproof can stifle a dyno plot. NONE!. So until the time arises that we see a real live dyno plot, we will all keep arguing over this piddly shiit....

While I'm not an airflow expert, well schooled in physics, or deeply religious (in the trditional sense of the word at least - recall Grace in the F&F, that I can handle), AMEN TO WHAT OUR REPTILIAN FRIEND FROM FLORIDA SAID!

I've been following this thread for a few days now. Let me first just say that anyone that has read to this point can undestand why i choose to buy a catback instead of design my own.

Crush vs Mandrel. Hmmm, lets see.... It seems to me that most of the larger exhaust manufactures use mandrel bends. Do you really think they would do so if there was not a benefit? They could charge the same price for crush bent systems as mandrel bent, and i think we can all agree that crush bent costs less to manufacture. Not to say that there is even a measurable difference in a single bend but my factory SE system had no less than 8 in the catback section. My borla has none.

I am an MET, though im a computer geek by trade. Any ME out there should agree that there are a number of vaiables that have to be considered in designing an exhaust system, and though most have been mentioned, they have not been mentioned together and in the proper context. This isn't just back yard science guys. I don't claim to have all the answeres or know all the equations.

As far as cardocs system goes, the original post just looked like spam to me, and i think that may be part of the reason so many people started slinging. That said, It would be nice to see a head to head dyno and scale shootout between all the manufactures (borla, brullen, cardoc, etc etc) various configurations.

Whats my point? I forgot it after reading through all this crap.

For all of you SVTs with aftermarket pipes:

What did you do with the old ones???

I just want to upgrade a little bit from the tiny Zetec stock pipes to what you guys were born with.

Let me know if there are any out there for cheap.

To Bruce Herring,
My post was not SPAM, I have not, nor will I ever SPAM (shill) for anyone! I was trying to bring some good information to this forum. Before I purchased my CSVT in January of 1999, this is the first place I found relevant info, whenever someone questioned me about my car and wanted to know more, I pointed them here. I have been very ill for the last two years and have posted very little, and visited here less and less. I was so happy with this system I thought I would share my joy of finding a good deal, not knowing that the forum that I once knew as a nice place to hang out at would turn into a vicious, back biting, childish, argumentative, inbred bunch of babies wanting to protect their little corner of the playground. I am truly saddened by this state of affairs, like I said before, I will take any deals, discoveries, informational tips, and well wishes somewhere else.
-RoxRocket

Mandrel bending of tubing DOES NOT cost more to do! I've been doing it for 21 years and I should know. Man I tell you, the marketing whores sure do have a tight grip on you guy's. By the way when was the last time a Dyno crossed a finish line? Another fine example of marketing. LOL ROFL!!!!!!

This post just sucks!
It seems that too much energy is going into something that would really be solved on a dyno. NO, dyno numbers don't win races, the driver does. However, if the dyno says you drop 600HP versus another car which drops 200HP, then most likely my money is on the 600 HP car!

As far as the Battle between crush bend and mandrel bend: Not enough information presented here to make good assumptions. I haven't seen a good photo of a Cardoc system yet. I haven't seen any testing information, etc. I bet if Doc were to dyno test his system and it even came out a little better than stock, he'd have even more supporters. In the end, it comes down to taste.

warmonger

The battle is not between crush bend and mandrel bend, because we all know that if you compare 2 exact same systems side by side (one press bent, and one mandrel bent), that the mandrel bent system will flow better. It has been proven many many many times over.

That is not the point. The point being argued here, is that Dom's system, compared to Borla, Bassani, etc, flows as good or better. All we are asking for is side by side dyno plots. Not some crazy physics formula, not opinions, nothing but a simple dyno plot.

You cannot argue rock solid proof as shown on a dyno plot. (I am sure it will be argued though).

Airflow actually speeds up at the crush bend. (Bernoulli???)

Posted by Roxrocket

I am not bothered by your decision to leave. You opened up with one of your first posts on CEG by calling everybodys exhaust "ricy" (except your crush bent masterpiece). In addition to being rediculous (virtually no one would call any of these exhausts ricy), and somewhat rude, you lost credibility right off the bat. THEN, you post some dyno numbers (actually twice???) that show power LOSSES with systems shown previously shown to gain power - highly "unusual" to say the least that a crush bent system would gain MORE than a mandrel bent. But NO DYNO spreads or further explaination were forthcomming, despite several requests. And now YOU'RE indignant and pissed off. :rolleyes:

Now, if you DO provide those graphs I may have to take a hammer to the Bassani and "crush" the bends good to gain power.

Ok, I'm lost. 14 opinions - Everybody pissing in the same pool, ex-SVT owners trying to dictate... WTF do you call this? Sad.

Let me see what I can infer from all this. Dyno's don't drive down the road - Many many scientific principles all pulled in, numbers are mentioned but quickly dis-credited. I dare to ask why you even bother to have a forum if you don't want to at lease ENTERTAIN the thought of something that MIGHT be out of your RANGE of understanding.

This actually points to DEMON and others that see mandrel as the save all. Laminar flow is the smoothest flow you can have in either liquid or air. No matter if you have mandrel or crush, 90 degree bends cause turbulence to the outside wall of the pipe - Making the flow slow down and the pressure rise (velocity slows) (This is in a single pipe setup).

Now, take two pipes for instance - with crush bends (not completely restricted like you people act like it is). The crush actually speeds velocity and drops the pressure.

BUT YOU CAN"T GET UNDER THE CAR TO SEE THAT SO YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT!

I'm not going to call you people morons, but I will call you ignorant. Ignorant to the fact that some things are above your understanding and simply arguing your way out of the conversation like you know what you are talking about is pure bullshiz. Now I know why some of the local parts suppliers hate CEG'ers. It's people like you that make the rest of the good people look bad. Just like KKM, I'm sure you have beaten the KKM to death and in effect it is a great product.

Remember people that these are all choices, and with choices there are going to be different opinions. Rox never started this to attack anyone personally, just to give his opinion which I thought the CEG was about. Obviously all CEG cares about is the opinion of a "few". Everybody is different - If you can't see and deal with diversity - CEG is fuk'd.

John

EDIT - P.S.

Here's a thought you infantile babies, why not purchase a Cardoc system and pool others and do your own comparison. Because if you believe that the person giving you the information is full of shiz - You yourself have no stoop to stand on either. I can't believe that you fools would actually argue about something that you have even said you've never seen in person. God are you people arrogant and shallow. Buy the damn system, dyno it and be done. Cardoc was never really concentrating on the performance aspect so he never dyno'd it (It's not because he couldn't) but because it wasn't important to him (He was concentrating on the sound aspect) you jack-off's. This whole post has pretty much angered me to the point that I know that I won't be coming back much at all anymore.

Cheers, and have fun screwing everyone around!

John

Well said.

LOL!

Dan you kill me!

-Andy

ok. i have read this entire thread twice and have almost thrown up both times me being a moron and all and wanting to buy an exahust what is the best possible exhaust system i can buy that will increase performance and i dont care about sound its all about the performance

Pressure only drops very locally at the constriction. The fact that the flow has to constrict and then expand causes energy losses which can be thought of as friction in the flow, reducing the ease by which the exhaust leaves the car.

So, NO the crush does not slow the flow at that bend, it speeds it up, and YES this is not a desirable characteristic because more upstream pressure is required to force out the exhuast at a given rate.

From the point of view of this aerospace engineer, it does not seem that crush bends would be the way to go simply because they add additional losses to the flow.

It's not rocket science!

Your correct, the bending does not cost more. The equipment does!

WERD

Uhhhh...velocity of gases through a "nozzle"...I think it is rocket science!

Here's a test we did in fluid dynamics...

Take a normal straw and blow on a piece of paper and maintain a constant deflection of the paper.

Bend the straw in the middle to a 90 degree angle and try to make the same deflection. It becomes harder and harder the further you bend it.

Now take a corrugated straw and you can bend it all the way around to blow back at you and the deflection of the paper is still as easy as if the straw were straight. It's elementary, which is exactly what Professor Ryan wanted it to be.

You don't see crush bends on pipelines, you don't see them on race cars, you don't see them on high quality headers, you see them on garage mechanic's cars. You see them from Midas and Pep Boys...

Why? Because it is cost effective and quick.

Design elements being the same, mandrel bent is better.

Weight is always a factor, luckily the weight is down low, but it is still weight and it still detracts from the performance gains when the gains are in the 3-10 whp range.

If the sound is what you are after, get a Borla.

Ed

Blue WRX,

Your straw analogy is not correct. When you bend a non-corrugated straw the ends bow out and the center collapses... (That is NOT what crush bending does to an exhaust pipe...) A corrugated straw just adds stress relief points for the straw to bend, Hardly the same thing. A real crush bend does NOT crush the sides nor the outside wall of the pipe. In all reality it stretches it out some. The inner part of the pipe is pressed (while smoothly) and stretched to make the crush bend.

You people make it sound like you bend it over a bench and bend it. Hardly the case at all. I've seen actual mandrel bent pipe that has that corrugation in the bend - That would hurt performance even worse than using crush bent pipe (think turbulence) crushed pipe interiors are smooth - No sharp transitions and no eddy's for the exhaust to get divert off of.

OK - The basic theory is this:

The disadvantage of mandrel bending is that it is relatively expensive, because of the costs involved in operating a mandrel bending heat machine. A popular alternative is to get piping with larger diameter and then have it crush bent. This way, it kind of evens out the differences in air flow ease, especially if that particular exhaust pipe configuration has a lot of bends and 90 degree bends.

Does that sum it up for you retards? Really... One pipe that was crush bent vs. one that was mandrel bent same pipe diameter. A maybe 5% difference in flow (which would equate to possibly a 1 or 2 hp loss). But with Cardoc's system - That is not a reality. Remember the principal behind his system is (2) 2.25" pipes. Crush bent yes, but hardly enough to underflow ANY aftermarket system. PERIOD

Now you almost forget about the inlet of his system and the type of muffler he uses. He uses a Cherry Bomb Vortex muffler. This muffler is designed for the most possible throughput (Almost similar to a Dynomax UltraFlo) but it has a center channel that absorbs the sound waves and evenly distributes the flow two ways without disrupting it. The dimensions on the muffler are 2.5" inlet and (2) 2.25" outlets. Do you think there is a restriction there? Not unless you put a cork in it.... Reason why this is important??? Here ya go:

A straight through muffler design would allow exhaust gases to be expedited out as efficiently as possible, although the muffling abilities would not be as efficient as that of the reverse flow design. Therefore it will be inevitable that the exhaust will sound louder than before, but as mentioned before a couple of times, an aftermarket straight through muffler uses noise suppressing material that tones down the sound to that of one that's deep and throaty and not irritating. Hence getting rid of the factory completely restrictive resonator and factory rear mufflers he is effectively making the optimum flow design for the exhaust. Those that use some type of resonator and dual mufflers are still not flowing as much as he is ... You have 3 points of disruption (compared to his 1).

Now, that school is out - I asked Cardoctor for a pic of his pipes out on the ground. He is staying away from this thread and most of the "opinionated" CEG'ers for obvious reasons...

You hate him?? Gee, it must really feel nice to be him and get constantly ridiculed by idiots that don't really have a clue. No wonder he doesn't have any opinion on CEG or it's members... Probably figures it's not worth the trouble to say, and I guess he would be the bigger man for staying clear of this.. Because some of you I think are just waiting for him to show.

Well, I've said my peace. I've had the Cardoctor system (actual system I bought) for almost 10 months and I love it. If you like the deep European sound and gargle on deceleration... This is the exhaust system for you! But if you like the sound of rasp (especially with systems with the factory Y still intact and the resonator removed) this is not the system for you. If you haven't heard it for yourself I would strongly suggest hearing it in person before putting your foot in your mouth. His sound clips don't even come close to the actual sound and also the system gurgles and rumble like no Borla or Bassani could ever do. I've heard them all - And I'm still not impressed.

Sincerly - John

P.S. I almost forgot - Cardoctor was nice enough to give me a link where I could view the early prototype system laid out. These pipes I was told were sold to Mike in NY. I think he said his name is "fuseface" or something on Ford Contour. So look over, study, turn your nose up or whatever.. But don't knock what you don't understand.

Well, it sorta looks that way in the pic...
Time to give it a rest. You summed it up well when you said Cardoc did not design it for performance but for sound. I trust that it sounds good.

Ratchie, you clearly do not have a full grasp of fluid dynamics, and flow in pipes especially.

You have posted some dyno numbers that were initially incorrect, then when corrected completely incompatible w/ other dyno results posted by other, and no copies of plots, only peak numbers.

The simple fact of the matter is that given the choice, mandrel bends provide far less loss of flow energy than a crush bend, ultimately giving a far more efficient method of transporting a gas flow.
Does this mean Cardoc's exhaust setup is useless? no, it just means that others feel it to not be the value he makes it out to be. Does it make crush bends a horrible evil? No, many people use crush bends on custom setups for the sake of convenience and expense (heck my own custom quai-dual system uses crush bends)
The reason Cardoc ended up having to defend himself all of the time, is he would make claims, and then when technical questions were asked regarding them, he would not respond, or would whine about having to defend himself. He and I have gone several rounds on several different subjects. He is certainly not someone I would go to for technical advice, especially on engineering matters. (Note that engine/powertrain modifications are inherently an exercise in engineering)

All that said, I still would like to see dyno plots of Cardoc's exhaust, and another, relevant plot to compare it to (ie a basline dyno of the same car, or with a different exhaust or whatever)

And finally, last time I checked, "Cherry Bomb" was not known for being the high quality exhaust component leader, but rather a Pep Boy's special.

Your right, However at the price that you guy's are paying for these catbacks all they have to do is sell 4 catback systems and the bender is paid for!!!!

Wow... those pipes are really crush-bent. I mean REALLY bent. Geez, there are indentations in the pipe where the pipe is supposed to be straight anyway! :rolleyes:

Oh well, it's all about the sound right? :p

Looks similar to the exhaust pipes I bent for a customer of mine with my FOREHEAD
If you think that hurts, my head hurts from looking at that pic.....

How can anyone justify that being as or more efficient than mandrel bent pipes :rolleyes:

Overall, Bassani (mandrel bent) with the resonators removed has been known to show the largest increases in horsepower. And yes, I have a dyno plot to prove it if anybody wants to see it. Its in my sig. No, its not $1000 either, with a little searching, you can get it for about $580ish shipped.

Oh and Dan, if that dyno plot shows up and you decide to take a sledge to your Bassani, drop me some pics and maybe a dyno plot of how it turns out.

Settle down, guys. It's a friggin exhaust pipe. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on exhaust pipes. If you think an extra 3 or 4 horses are gonna make a world of difference, then happy dementia to ya. In my opinion, everyone here is right. Just no more math equations, OK?

It doesn't look too bad. It is definitely crush bent, but apparently not so extreme as to be a bad exhaust. I expected it to look worse.
That said, I would bet my car on the fact that it is not more efficient(regarding pressure drop) to a mandrel bent sytem of the same configuration and diameter.

warmonger

OK,

Ima going to summa it up for you frigin daffodils.. (I'm italian and I'm fired up!) Since you people don't obviously like Cardoc in any way - All he has seemed to ever do is just to make an honest attempt at helping people (Gee, before all the true duals came along and 3Liters and such) Cardoc used to be a prominent person that ALOT of people including myself either emailed/PM'd or posted to ask for his help. He answered every one of my emails and also I remember he answered everyones posts with all the knowledge he had on that particular subject. (Case in point an outstanding CEG'er) I've known him for about a year now.. And before that I knew of him and wanted to talk to him because of his knowledge. The only thing I've seen in the past year or so with him defending himself is the fact that all he has ever done is try to help people. If the really smart people like Rara and Steve Bassen and DemonSVT and a few others that stick out like a sore thumb in the search articles would actually give the guy a chance to explain and share ideas... You would think twice about what you say and think about him. I NEVER read a post where he ever single handedly ridiculed or told someone they were stupid for their idea. He never took for granted what someone was thinking like some of the "many" here. It seems to me that he NEVER sought out people like Steve b, rara and DemonSVT. You people made the site and him the way it is. I never saw him provoke you in any way - Just answer questions for other people and offer up the knowledge he had. It's a shame that someone like myself hates to post here, but more or less I was moved to post in this forum because it's getting real old about these attacks on him. The guy never did ANYTHING to you people except try to help out. Do you realize that alot of people have gone to the other site just out of respect for the guy and everything he has tried to do for everyone?

Attack him, belittle him - It's gotten so old that the only people that alot of people are tired of hearing from is "you". "YOU" referring to the few that just don't get it. He doesn't need to belong to your special "clique", he carries his own group and doesn't have to act like a a$$hole to get people to respect him.

(Ok personal stuff aside)

I asked Cardoctor about his exhaust system and the reason why it wasn't mandrel bent. You want to know the real reason why it isn't? Have any of you even asked? Do you have one shred of a clue? Well... I'm going to fill you in. He used to work for a Custom exhaust shop that did performance exhaust on Mustangs, Camaro's and old vintage cars (i.e. historical and hot rods). The bender in that shop is a crush bender - the business has been around for over 30 years doing custom exhausts for loyal customers everyday. Why would you expect him to go out and spend money for pre-formed mandrel pieces? On top of that why would you question a man who dis it for a living? He seems to have taste - Those that know him closely say that he is very "particular" about his car and what goes on it... So it's too much to imagine that you could actually trust the guy for that. I mean a guy that spends 8 hours with making exhaust designs before he found one that sounded good sounds pretty "particular" doesn't he? I'm sure he just didn't slap that on there in one hour... From what I can tell his was the first quasi dual with dual rear pipes, this was something that he hadn't originally planned on doing, but something that came to him while another car was in the shop. This gave him the idea - He did it and then showed it to us (CEG). Now you ridicule him?? There's no technical about this... He showed us everything about it, helped those that wanted to copy it.. and sold systems to those that were interested. The really sad part is that these people are happy... They don't care that they might not have the most powerful system on the market (which is up in the air because who knows... It just might be..) It was the neatest best thing on the market at the time. Does that mean that everyone should do true duals?? Well - Look at any true dual that was done after his and you will see the same design for the rear pipes... Did they get the idea from him???? I bet the collective Paypal CEG amount that they did.

Anyhow - I've never seen him turn his back to anyone, he is loyal to the group that he started in his state and many like him. What is the problem with just getting along?

John

P.S. Warmonger... Your bet might be right - But comparing his system to the same system mandrel bent would not really show much efficiency gain. There is a certain point when no matter how you try to improve the flow... You run out of ideas because you realize the system might be over designed for the car itself. I sincerely hope that you understand you could unbolt his design and run a small block 350 and have no problems. Do you really think a 155 cubic engine is going to have problems breathing through it??? Hello - anyone home?

Rara... I never posted dyno #'s. You better re-read this post. Obviously overlooking something as small as this would be easy for a dote like you. And do you have to be an absolute dick? Pep Boys doesn't sell Vortex mufflers idiot. They are only sold to shops - If you see one at Pep Boys.. I'll give you a cookie.

Here's the scoop on that muffler:

High performance muffler
Maremont Exhaust Products, Inc. features the Cherry Bomb Vortex, a high performance muffler. It is available for popular performance automobiles and light trucks, reduces back pressure and maximizes horsepower. Vortex mufflers are built with all-welded aluminized steel construction, which combined with the use of stainless steel wool and fiberglass acoustic media, ensure long life. Maremont Exhaust Products, Inc.

Doesn't sound like Pep Boy's product to me... Now let me see which one you are... Hmm - Manny Moe or Jack??? Really you must be Moe - Because only a shMOE like you could be such a blatant ass.

Ratchie,

wake up and smell the coffee. Should I point you to about 8 threads which would change your opinion of Cardoc immediately? If not, you're about as hardheaded as they come.

Calling us dicks and morons will sure to earn you respect, not that you had to earn in in the first place.

Everyone has their opinion of Cardoc, me included, and Cardoc has an opinion about the CEG.

There is a REASON why so many people don't like him. You don't get that many pissed off at you for little stupid stuff. If he was such an angel as you perceive him to be, then please, why does he have a wicked 9 active members on his forums? And if the CEG sucks so bad (according to you), why do we have about 500 active members? Something surely doesn't add up.

Too bad Cardoc deleted all the posts in which he was proven wrong, and went off on whoever proved him wrong. I've seen it happen about 4 times, but again, too bad he deleted all those threads.

Or shall I point you to a thread in svtperformance.com in which Cardoc displays his marvels?

In any case, don't let the door hit yo a$$ on the way out, and enjoy looking 2 posts a day by the same people at the 'other' site.

Buh-bye.

And who are you?

Threads deleted? I read the one on SVTPerformance. IIRC I was told by someone on another site that there was a copyright infringement when some loser tried to use "Cardoctor's" property against him. I guess it led to their hosting account being permanently banned. This account I heard had property from the many "few" that hate Cardoc so much... And you call him malicious? You call him a loser? Gee, that's about as low as they come. Hate? Hate? yeah - I said it twice because I could never HATE someone on an internet forum. Obviously you can, and the other's like "you". You show HATE for someone on the same team as you. You truly are a marvelous spectacle yourself "hater"... You are truly a joke. I laugh at you for the pityful fool you are. And the rest of my post will be me laughing at you.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

A certain quote comes to mind:

"Go to Fatburger from now on where you can get a cheesburger and fries for $2.99...

FAGGOT!"

That truly fits here.

Always amazed at idiots...

John

P.S. Since you are truly a marvel...

500 members out of 6000 sounds alot worse than 9 out of 500 shizhead. If it weren't for your inbred brother and sisters that keep signing up over and over again because they can't remember their UBB password - Maybe you would only have 500 real members. God and I thought we learned 1+1 in grade school (It's not required to sign up EVERYTIME you want to post to this forum is it?). Please regress to that rock you came from - As you are definately not the brightest headlight in the bunch.

"i like the tuna here"
"bull**** *******, nobody likes the tuna here"



oh, and:

It may sound worse...but 500 out of 6000 is 8.3% active members, while 9 out of 500 is 1.8%

Member for 3 years. Next.

That's what I said, didn't I?

Did I call him malicious? Did I call him a loser?

No, so sit the f*ck down, and STFU.

:rolleyes:

Mmmmmk, about the lamest flamewar-starting comment I've ever seen.

How fitting, see below....

500 out of 6000 - 8.3% of members that register stay on as regulars

9 out of 500 - 1.8% of members that register stay on as regulars.

Last time I checked, 8.3% is better than 1.8%, so who's the idiot now? Lets not get to which site generates more traffic.

Quite original with that statement.

Yeah, so did I, and one of us didn't pay attention and that one ain't me.

Speak for yourself, see above.

IF you wanna resort to name calling which is obviously your forte, feel free to PM me, so you don't bore the living piss out of the other members with your useless banter.

Again, buh-bye.

Eh, Simon beat me to it.

Well - 8.3%. 8.3% for the supposed "traffic" this site gets. Still not impressed.

Nevermind... The other site is still new - Give it a couple of years and we'll re-examine at that time.

Lame? I see you let that F&TF comment slide because it wasn't lame was it? It was dead on.

Oh well. Too far off the subject, going to go stare at 2 posts a day. At least the posts aren't solid bs.

John

P.S. 1.whatever percent for the other site might just be in line for the traffic it gets. And somewhere I saw 32 users online at one time... About almost 4 times what you quoted. That brings the percentage up more than a few points. I'd call that pretty close.

Just admit you f*cked up and don't try to twist your way out of it. You're making yourself look even worse.

New my a$$. I'm giving it a couple of years until it dies, not until traffic improves, and that's a big maybe.

If I let it slide, it musta been REALLY idiotic.

Enjoy!

Now THAT'S funny.

Buh-bye!

Wow you're an ignorant slob.

Do you really think you are going to change anyone's mind talking the way you are?

Holy crap.

Has the whole problem not been with the complete lack of performance proof that has provoked this?
Nobody has said the sound of his exhaust sounds bad, just that crush bends suck.
And what about the fact that all high-performance applications use mandrel bending?

Just dyno the damn exhaust and post it. Don't have a place to put 'em? Fax em to my work, I'll post them w/in 5 minutes. PM me for the number.

The minute you're crush-bent exhaust shows better gains than my madrel-bent Bassani, I'll personally apologize to CarDoc for not investing in his bull-**** ass idea, and you're bull**** ass ramblings

-Jason

Glad you added that.

Didn't I tell you not to try and twist your way out of it?

Go on the main page on CEG FORUMS. I see 155 recent visitors, and 83 guests for a grand total 238 people @ 2am.

Granted, they're not current visitors, but they're recent. Good enough.

John

That's not 500 idiot like previously stated and counted.

That's less.

Was that simple enough? Your percentage just dropped in half.

John

Yeah, and your genius percentage has just reached 100%.

Please, make it stop! PLEASE! For the third time, DON'T TRY AND TWIST YOUR WAY OUT OF IT!

No offense, but if I had to take a guess, your momma musta dropped ya on your head when you were born.

I said 500 active members, not all of them are active at 2am Eastern. Go re-read my post.

Just peeked at 'other' site, and I was the only member (along w/ Cardoc) viewing the forums now, compared to 238 on the CEG.

Hole, shut.

What are those? Where did you get them from? Just pull em out of thin air? You must have, because you say you never posted dyno #'s.

http://www.pepboys.com/products/parts.shtm

Scroll to exhaust, what brand do you see listed? Maremont.

What a freakin' joke this is becoming.

Ratchie1,

I can't understand why anyone would devote time to kicking and screaming over the internet. If you like the exhaust, GOOD FOR YOU. It's obviously not for everyone, so why don't you stop getting in people's faces about it?

We're getting off subject here and I think it's time for a redirecting of the post. John (Ratchie1), is there any chance you still have your factory exhaust still around? Any chance you have a dyno near your home? I think your wonderful insight can lead you to what sort of plan I'm thinking of.

Dyno plots, not numbers, not thermal or fluid dynamic equations, not which system costs more, sounds better, or who produced it... Dyno plots... For an exhaust that was never developed for power, you sure seem hellbent on proving the increases it provides... So do it already! The line has been drawn...

__________________________________________________

Just FYI, I'm not a Cardoc hater, in fact I'm a member on FC.org as well and talk to him pretty regular over there. I look forward to the projects coming out of that stable over the next few months, good, bad, or otherwise just as much as I enjoy it here. The CEG FC.org feud lives on!!! :rolleyes:

Perry Rara, -

Is my name RoxRocket? Are you retarded or can't you see that it is NOT me. I didn't post that dyno info so give it a rest. Jesus, will you people grow up. Like I said earlier - Buy a system and do it for yourself, I have no intention of spending $100.00 to find out something I can already feel.

On the other hand - If the other site was so bad and lonely, you wouldn't concentrate your "hate" on him and it. Obviously it doesn't take my arm being twisted to see that another choice of offering "is not acceptable" to you. Too bad - With the mentality's and attitudes here I can see why in the future that site will prosper. I could say alot more in defense of some crackhead that just posted about the bu## #### Cardoc exhaust system - But what's the use. Obviously these people are taking hits off of the same pipe as you , so it's not important to say much about it.

I do have one question though - If you dislike Cardoc so much.. Tell me what he has done to you personally in your life besides disagree with your opinion / or likewise? Huh, I don't see any defense from him until he was provoked... Especially when you people like to throw MUD and then blame it on him. Why would that be? Is he that much of a threat. When is the actual last time he even posted over here?? I'd say he is leaving you alone (for obvious reasons) and you people are still not happy.

You people that have a problem with him are gay! Didn't I read a topic from Lance that said there was no hard feelings between CEG and Ford Contour? But no matter what a few "losers" like yourselves will never let it go. Maybe it's the fact you don't like a wildcard - And that's what he is. You can't beat him into submission like you do others on this board, me included. The sad fact is that if you took a poll - I'm sure there are only a handful of real people out of 6000 that don't like him for some reason (maybe he pissed on your wheaties in a post) aww... would you like a Kleenex? But his info does seem credible, shooting down credible info seems a little much doesn't it. I imagine the rest of the votes that don't like him are just "followers" that want to keep in good with the "group". And the rest probably have no problem with him at all.

The few speak for the many? That's a dangerous concept as you are speaking for the site owner also when you spread blatant bs and smear another member that is now a competitor. That could backfire on you and Lance - I would watch your step. I don't see him following suit here, I don't even see him being interested in saying anything... Obviously alot smarter than all that posted garbage (not real posts but the trash inbetween). So who's the bigger man?

Thought so,

John

Just a little comment, since everyone seems to be dissing the Vortex. (Oh and no, I don't have shares in Maremont... )

I researched the muffler quite a bit before putting it on my car. Its not exotic, but its solid. 14 gauge! steel, painted. Very heavy. I saw a cut-out at my exhaust shop. I believe it won't be rattling anytime soon, judging by the gauge of the flow dividers and the welds. Fiberglass and steel wool filling, plenty of it. The design is very free flowing. The only real restriction is the mating of the square box to the two rear pipes. Some turbulence there for sure. So don't put it in the same league as the super turbos or the cherry bomb turbos. It's not.

Now again, a nice mandrel bent 2.5 inch with a stainless dynomax ultraflow in the resonator position, with no rear muffler, would be the best cat-back system if you were after power only. I'm guessing I sacrificed a few hp (3 or 4?) to get the two rear pipes and the stereo sound. But it was worth it to me. Depends what you want

What the hell are you talking about? Are you referring to this thread? Looks like my hosting is working fine, thank you very much.



Grab a stick, it's still kicking....

Ratchie, we could go on and on, and I could prove you wrong on and on.

I don't feel like doing that, and I'm sure Lance wouldn't appreciate it.

Re: Cardoc, since you brought him up again. Yes, he disagreed w/ me, and plenty of others, nothing wrong with that, but then he got proven wrong, and instead of admitting it, he flames (name calling and such, which you two could shake hands at) you and says the topic is closed and has to get the last word in. Enough to piss me, and plenty of other people off. And when you say something about it, he either locks the thread, or deletes your account.

This didn't happen once or twice, but more than a dozen times. Again, too bad the threads don't exist anymore.

Case closed. No more responses from me on this topic.

John