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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
I have an idea. Lets give everyone the right to do everything! This way we don't hurt anyones feelings or discriminate against anyone else.
Great arguement.
The truth is, when you allow certain people specific rights, but DENY those rights to someone else, its discrimination.
Will you please pull your head out of your ass and realize this isn't about "feelings," however it is absolutely about discrimination.
Please, have your opinions, share your opinions, hell, vote based on your opinions. It doesn't change the fact that our current laws discriminate against gay couples. We need to provide EQUAL RIGHTS for all, with Liberty and Justice for all" (Or maybe you don't really mean that part of the Pledge)
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Originally posted by Freakshow:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
Fact: The majority deems homosexual behavior as unacceptable. That may change in the future, but for now that's the way the cookie crumbles.
And as stated numerous times throughout this thread at one time the majority deemed may races as less than human and laws were made to limit those people's freedoms. The majority was wrong in those instances and it took many years and a civil rights movement to get things changed.
On another note Sandman: you keep talking about "hate the sin not the sinner" I coulda swore that most religions were against hate period? Didn't jesus preach about tolerance and love thy neighbor and do unto others etc etc etc? Forget about the old testament, please show me one quote where jesus ever said "gays are wrong" "don't ever let those gays marry because it's wrong" or anything to that affect. All you can do from a biblical perspective is quote old testament references. Most people who truly believe christ died for our sins admit that much of the old testament became obsolete after that moment due to christ dying for all man's sins. If you're going to use the bible to suport your arguement at least use ALL of it and not just the parts that conveniently fit your views.
I don't know where people get the idea that just because we have a New Testament, we can throw out the old one. My religion absolutely does not teach that. But anyway:
Romans 12:9
Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
God is unchanging through time:
Hebrews 6
17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
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Originally posted by daenku32:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
No, actually, i wasn't going to come back with anything. I just think it is very childish to say that someone who stands up for their morals and values, when based on religious teachings, can be nothing other than a puppet. It's a cop out when you (not you personally, freak) have no defense.
Why would anyone ever need to have a defense to religiously based arguments? Religion is purely personal and subjective. And no one is ever forced to accept a religious teachings as facts.
So then why would you suggest that those of faith are unable to think for themselves and use religion as a crutch? Seems to be bigoted to me.
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Eh, I should have stated that the majority are against homosexual marriages. My mistake.
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Originally posted by sigma:
Quote:
Funny how I am far from the only one that thinks judges are overstepping their bounds.
Yes, and a lot of people thought judges were overstepping their bounds when they gave women the right to vote too. What exactly is your point?
actually, that was congress. 19th amendment, the Susan B. Anthoney amendment. 
Originally posted by Tourgasm:
Sometimes you can mess up a word so bad that spell check doens't know what the hell you're talking about.
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Originally posted by Freakshow:
And if you believe in the bible and god then you believe your god wil be the one exacting punishment for breaking the commandments not his people on earth. If we left it up to the PEOPLE to exact gods punishment we'd be back in the dark ages with the inquisition going on again.
And I am not twisting the bible to make homosexuality OK in the eyes of religious people who follow it. I'm simply pointing out a part that no one ever talks about when it comes to this isuue. Jesus preached tolerance and love for fellow man; not hate for people who didn't follow the right path.
But he did not preach the tolerance of ongoing sin. He taught that we should try to turn sinners from their ways (and before you go off on a tirade, yes, I realize that we are all sinners, Christian or no). Let's not forget that. We didn't just abandon the Old Testament when we got the New. Jesus was sent here because we could not live up to the requirements of the Old Testament. That does not mean that God changed. He mearly provided a vehicle for our salvation from The Law, (Old Testament), which condemned us.
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Quote:
And if you want to go back to the origional written hebrew and interpret it your way, thats fine.
Did I say my way? No. I said that other theologians disagree with your interpretation.
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
I'll stick to the professionally translated scripts, any one of them, because I'm not an interpriter.
Bible translations were commissioned by politicians and translated in a way that they saw fit. Your "Word" is nothing more than a politically manipulated translation of a translation. It's like a game of "Telephone" (I think that's what we called it) where one person says something and they tell another, and they tell another, until the person at the end as an entirely different sentence than the one that started.
Quote:
EDIT: And tell me how your bible interprits Romans 1:26,27, or 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. It seems clear to me that the bible condemns homosexuality. Use whatever translation you want.
I'm glad that it's clear to you. And your interpretation is your right.
Romans 1:26 was written by Paul -- you and your Church undoubtedly ignores almost every command that Paul gave. Have you ever worn a hat? That's a sin according to Paul. Do your women speak in Church? Paul called that a sin too. Paul thought that slavery was a great institution. Why do you pick and choose which verses you want to follow and which you don't? Almost every passage referring to homosexuality as a sin (or at least could be read that way) was written by Paul. A man who is ignored in virtually everything else he proclaimed.
Paul also doesn't proclaim that homosexuality was a sin -- but that being "unnatural" and "lustful" were the sins. If one is born homosexual (argument of course) the sin is denying what oneself is and pretending to be heterosexual in direct opposition to the way that God made you. That is the sin.
And Corinthians 6:9? A perfect example of how translation can skew meanings. The translation you probably read explicitly says "homosexual" and "abusers of mankind".
Originally Paul used a word that means "soft" not "homosexual" or "effeminate" -- it's common usage was for a person born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Jews like Paul do not look kindly upon those who did not work for what they have.
And Paul's original Greek wording was not "abusers of mankind" but "abusers of young boys" -- Child Molestation.
It's amazing how two people can read something entirely different. That's not downing the Bible in any way. That is the hallmark of a great piece of literature upon which to base a country or relgion. Our own Constitution is exactly the same way.
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And homosexuality is purely personal as well. So, why should the majority, who obviously are against it in those 11 states have it forced upon them? Originally posted by daenku32:
Religion is purely personal and subjective. And no one is ever forced to accept a religious teachings as facts.
Ryan
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Originally posted by bishop375:
Originally posted by Sandman333:
Mostly referring to what this country was, and the ideals it was founded upon.
So we should all be affluent white males, women be subservient, and own slaves.
And I'm not talking revisionist history here. I'm talking fact. Go look up WHO came here "in the beginning." I dare you to read A People's History of the United States.
I suppose it should also be alright for us to continue our ideals of moving across the world and slaughtering whoever happens to be there first. Funny, that's what happened here during our westward expansion.
The MAJORITY wanted Blacks to be given separate but "equal" rights, including their own schools, water fountains, seats on the bus. And guess what? Separate but equal was struck down. Why? Because it's a load of crap. You're trying to give gays a "separate but equal" version of "marriage," but won't even see it because you're so blindly following whatever BS you use to justify this discrimination.
NOBODY is trying to MAKE you gay, just trying to keep the country from discriminating against them in the damn Constitution.
Where have I ever said I was afraid someone was trying to make me gay? Oh yeah, I didn't. Nice try deflecting the argument.
Anyway, when the majority decides that gay marriage is acceptable (and I do believe that will happen one day, though I will continue to disagree with it), then the law will be changed. What I see right now is a minority group demanding that society at large bend to their will and allow them to defile one of the most sacred and heavily moral-based institutions. That is unacceptable.
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Anyway, when the majority decides that gay marriage is acceptable (and I do believe that will happen one day, though I will continue to disagree with it), then the law will be changed. What I see right now is a minority group demanding that society at large bend to their will and allow them to defile one of the most sacred and heavily moral-based institutions. That is unacceptable.
And how is this any different than the rights for Blacks to vote, Segregation of the Schools, or Interacial Marriages?
All these were situations where a majority was against the idea.
I know, lets bring back the poll tax in those 11 southern states. That way the poor cannot vote either (aimed specifically at Blacks). And we can DENY them that right, because after all, they are different.
Are we supposed to just sit around and wait for the majority to be OK with it now? Comeon. As someone that stands to defend our country, how do you not see this as a Civil Rights issue???
Last edited by zgendron; 11/05/04 05:16 PM.
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