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Originally posted by arjoel:
Okay scrap the "homosexuals aren't equal" bit. They have every right that any straight person has. They can get the same jobs, goto the same places, marry a member of the opposite sex. Homosexuals are equal. The gay marriage supporters always seem to cry about how homosexuals aren't equal because they can't marry a member of the opposite sex. No one can. Am i being discriminated against because i want to marry another guy? Of course not. Its a law that everyone must follow, not just homosexuals. That is why the whole discrimination bit doesn't hold up and won't hold up legally.
That pretty much makes zero sense. Thanks anyway though.
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Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
Originally posted by SVZETEC:
But you should see my tool collection (keep your minds out of the gutter  )
Must I repeat myself? 
1999 Sportage 4x4...don't go there, it was free
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Mostly referring to what this country was, and the ideals it was founded upon.
So we should all be affluent white males, women be subservient, and own slaves.
And I'm not talking revisionist history here. I'm talking fact. Go look up WHO came here "in the beginning." I dare you to read A People's History of the United States.
I suppose it should also be alright for us to continue our ideals of moving across the world and slaughtering whoever happens to be there first. Funny, that's what happened here during our westward expansion.
The MAJORITY wanted Blacks to be given separate but "equal" rights, including their own schools, water fountains, seats on the bus. And guess what? Separate but equal was struck down. Why? Because it's a load of crap. You're trying to give gays a "separate but equal" version of "marriage," but won't even see it because you're so blindly following whatever BS you use to justify this discrimination.
NOBODY is trying to MAKE you gay, just trying to keep the country from discriminating against them in the damn Constitution.
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Originally posted by Freakshow:
Originally posted by arjoel:
Okay scrap the "homosexuals aren't equal" bit. They have every right that any straight person has. They can get the same jobs, goto the same places, marry a member of the opposite sex. Homosexuals are equal. The gay marriage supporters always seem to cry about how homosexuals aren't equal because they can't marry a member of the opposite sex. No one can. Am i being discriminated against because i want to marry another guy? Of course not. Its a law that everyone must follow, not just homosexuals. That is why the whole discrimination bit doesn't hold up and won't hold up legally.
That pretty much makes zero sense. Thanks anyway though.
Good reply, way to run away from the facts. Explain what doesn't make sense.
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Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
...There's no getting around it, homosexuality is dead wrong from the Bible's viewpoint.
There still exists debate around this...
Allow me to throw out my trump card here. It somewhat parallels the argument on "behavior" vs. "choice".
What about hermaphrodites? Where do they fit into God's vision? Are they lumped into the gay category due to a technicality?
Are these people Damned the moment they came out of the womb? Any sexual choice they make doesn't change the fact that that choice could be construed as homosexual behavior...
...or does there exist another category of discrimination that religious zealotry should establish to remove civil rights from them?
I agree that religious marriage should remain sanctified and between a man and a woman, but denying civil unions under Federal or State law to gays is nothing short of putrid, 100% discrimination and hate that cheapens what this nation stands for. I agree that this nation was founded largely on Christian principles, but at the same time, those that founded this nation had their forebearers escaping England in order to avoid a similar sort of religious persecution that exists today. Seperation of Church and State is a double-edged sword that is being FAR too recklessly swung by some on both sides of the argument here.
There MUST be a balance reached on this. While I agree that NO church should be forced to recognize or hold gay marriages and that the definition of marriage should stay as "one woman, one man"; that doesn't mean that this country should wholesale ignore the civil rights of millions of upstanding, tax paying and patriotic US citizens.
At a Federal/State level, this isn't an argument over religion, though the zealots on both sides have ultimately gotten off track and MADE it into one. It's an agrument over basic civil rights that are being DENIED to a portion of our population.
Again, I don't know the answer, but I do know what answers are flat-out WRONG on this.
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Originally posted by arjoel:
Its a law that everyone must follow, not just homosexuals.
In a limited way your statement may be currently true for some specific jurisdictions - but it is certainly not universally true, and therefore your term "everyone" is not appropriate.
There are many places where same sex marriages are not only recognized, but protected under a charter of rights. On that basis it would seem that Americans don't have the same right as other nationals; and perhaps more importantly, it seems that the residents of some states have greater protection/rights than the residents of other states.
Originally posted by arjoel:
That is why the whole discrimination bit doesn't hold up and won't hold up legally.
I believe you're swimming against the tide with this one ... in fact, in more and more jurisdictions everyday "sexual orientation" is being equated to race, gender and religion (which is a matter of choice BTW), as requiring protection from discrimination.
The irony of the 11 state amendments is that they will likely speed up this process in the U.S., as they are challenged and probably overturned in court.
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Agreed. Which is why I called it an "abnormality".
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Well I'm tired and going to bed. Obviously this will be an issue for many years to come.
I am impressed and glad to see that this thread has (other than 1 or 2 people making crude references) stayed civil. Nice to see that there are some people on here that can passionately debate their views without resorting to all the name calling and flaming that usually goes on.
'Night peoples!
Formerly known as Sneaku
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Quote:
There's no getting around it, homosexuality is dead wrong from the Bible's viewpoint.
No, it's dead wrong from your interpretation of your Bible's viewpoint. I can find you just as many theologians that claim the Bible doesn't claim homosexuality is a sin as those that do.
Your Bible is not the Word of God. Your Bible is the Word translated and interpreted, depending on your particular version, potentially dozens of times. And each time passages are changed slightly to suit the times and/or are simply translated differently by different people. Read the Bible in Hebrew and it's not nearly as cut-and-dry a case as you would probably like it to be.
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Originally posted by SAV-ZX2:
Originally posted by daenku32:
Kremit, I hope that one day you'll get to know a gay couple personally. Same for the rest of the gay-condemning community.
I already do. And it didn't do much to change my mind.
I'm not going to sit here and play this pissing match with you people though. If I want to believe that marriage is between a man and woman, then I'm going to do it, damned what anyone else thinks of me. Call me childish. I see that coming already. In fact, I'll save everyone the trouble.
But do you believe they shouldn't be allowed partnership rights, under a different name? Thats the inherent question. Because I just don't see why.
Two important points that are being completely missed in these threads. Some of the anti-gay marriage people in here said they would support civil unions. But the measures in 8 of these states specifically prohibited civil unions and they passed overwhelmingly. Part of the problem is the use of words, the language used in the provisions. But you guys, if you feel strongly about this, ought to recognize the distinction.
While George Bush supported an amendment to ban gay marriage, he has actually (very recently) expressed a support of civil unions. Considering this issue affects our fellow Americans, we ought get our semantics straight.
Last edited by GreenNuggs; 11/05/04 03:39 PM.
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