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The section below originates from: http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=perf&Number=661160&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2&fpart=allOriginally posted by Ronan:
The operator said that this figure can vary due to things such as; Tyre pressure Atmospheric pressure temp of gear oil etc. list goes on.
For accurate comparisions, he said it is best to use the figure at the flywheel. The transmission loss varies each time I go there, from 28hp to about 33hp. Hence the different readings in the whp between the two intakes despite the obvious differences in crank power...
With my EH UIM I recently got from the g/b (started life as a stock UIM) I resulted in a power drop vs. the unmodded SVT UIM from a 98 SVT. Figure that one out... 
Oh, and it was the same dyno each time. 
Ronan, it is indeed very disappointing and puzzling/troubling to hear that your car dyno'ed lower with the EH UIM. In a recent PM to me you mentioned that you - Quote:
did a small egr mod tonight, got a solid gasket to block off the passage of gases back into the UIM
I'd suggested that, if possible you undo this mod for the dyno comparsion.
Did you dyno with or without the "solid gasket"?
The Ford ECU needs to have that signal. If there isn't any exhaust gas being recirculated back into the inake the computer makes adjustments on the assumption that something is wrong. The EGR, PCV, etc., systems in these cars are all monitored by the ECU and need to be functioning properly or else the computer will start adjusting the timing, etc., to compensate for the unexpected signal results. Usually resulting in a loss in power. The only way I know of to properly run without those items is with a proper "stand-a-lone" customized computer system that has been properly calibrated to the setup.
I'm also still puzzled by the the way the dyno (rolling road) operator is arriving at the results. The operator is saying it's better to use the figures at the flywheel but unless the engine is out of the car and connected to an engine dyno the only accurate figures you can get are the WHP figures. I don't see how he can ever say you've got a a 28HP loss from the transmission one day and a 33HP loss another, unless they are taking actual readings of something well beyond the scope of the dyno's I'm used to (Dynojet's - specifically the 248x).
A "chassis dyno" which measures at the wheel HP/TQ can only give you accurate figures for WHP and any mention of what the engine is making at the flywheel is an educated guess at best.
An "engine dyno" which measures at the flywheel HP/TQ is the only way to accurately tell the true HP of an engine as there are no parasitic losses such as drivetrain, etc. Unless one has done an engine dyno run and then a chassis dyno run on the same engine under the same conditions (engine temp, intake air temp, etc., etc.) then I don't think one can do anything but guess at the losses.
A proper dyno, of either type, should have probes that read atmospheric pressure, ambient air temperature, etc., and produce two sets of results. The first is the raw data and the second is the "Corrected" data. The corrected data has been adjusted to provide a figure that would be achieved at sea level at x temperature (can't remember what it is but the that's not important).
The corrected data is what should be used as it provides a constant yardstick and one should only rely on the figures that are generated from the dyno, by that I mean if it's a chassis dyno than you will have useable at-the-wheel figures.
It may be that I'm missing something here. I'm sure someone will let me know nicely , if I am , but I just don't see how the dyno operator can tell you you've got more power at the wheels than before, but less at the flywheel unless they take an accurate measurement at the flywheel. Do they actually measure anything other than the power at the wheels, temperature, pressure, etc.
Regards, Alan
03 Volvo S60 2.5T AWD
98 Mystique 2.5 MTX
99 SVT - Inheriting Lil Monster's parts
98 SVT - Lil Monster (RIP) 183.7 whp
Quaife/Fidanza/UR UD Clutch
AFE/MSDS/SHO-Y/Bassani/MagnaCore
GC/Koni/22mmR/EndLinks/ES/
KVR Slotted/1144's/SS Lines/MASItaly
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Interesting... I'd like to swap UIMs on the dyno and see what happens. I think Street Flight will allow me to do such a thing...if I pay them enough.
Derek
Scion xB 5-spd
Previous: 2000 Silver Frost SVT
Please share the road with cyclists.
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Originally posted by Derk2000:
Interesting...
I'd like to swap UIMs on the dyno and see what happens. I think Street Flight will allow me to do such a thing...if I pay them enough.
Im sure they would, just because were all curious to see what sort of hp gains/losses it yields.
Jim Hahn
1996 T-Red Contour SE Reborn 4/6/04
3.0L swap and Arizona Dyno Chip Turbo Kit
364 whp, 410 wtq @ 4,700 rpm
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Originally posted by Derk2000:
Interesting...
I'd like to swap UIMs on the dyno and see what happens. I think Street Flight will allow me to do such a thing...if I pay them enough.
Derek, I just dyno'd my SVT on Saturday 183.7 WHP. I'm taking off the UIM this week and sending it to EH (Rick let me be a straggler as I had a Solo I to run).
I plan on dynoing it when I get it back from EH so there can be a direct back-to-back comparison with the same UIM, as opposed to using different UIM's back-to-back. After that I've got a BAT intake pipe coming that I'll install and get figures for. (supposed to be in the mail - bought it off the classifed section but it's been 3 weeks and nothing yet )
Once I've got all the graphs I'll post them in this section. Then I guess the next thing will be to have StreetFlight burn a chip for the car as that certainly should have a beneficial effect on the numbers.
Wish I had the money to do some head work (like the P&P Group Buy) but funds are quite limited (Anna has a completely different set of priorities then I do  ).
Regards, Alan
03 Volvo S60 2.5T AWD
98 Mystique 2.5 MTX
99 SVT - Inheriting Lil Monster's parts
98 SVT - Lil Monster (RIP) 183.7 whp
Quaife/Fidanza/UR UD Clutch
AFE/MSDS/SHO-Y/Bassani/MagnaCore
GC/Koni/22mmR/EndLinks/ES/
KVR Slotted/1144's/SS Lines/MASItaly
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Thanks for the info Alan, I will try and find out more about that dyno from the operator. I should have removed the solid EGR gasket before making the comparison to be sure. Do you really think that the engine would retard the timing somewhat to compensate?
I ran the car last night, and the air was a bit dense. The car went faster than it ever did ( I think!) but I know that the air outside can make a difference.
What do I need to do to ensure that the egr mod wont subtract power? Get a specific chip burnt with it blocked off?
1996 Mondeo 24v 4-door
twin janspeed stainless pipe
cat by-pass
Phase 2 RS bodykit
16" cosworth alloys
K&N RU3530
SVT TB/UIM/LIM
poly bushings
konis/bat springs/bar
Pioneer
MSDS
Indiglos
P&P heads
2005 Mondeo Zetec Tdci
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My uneductaed guess is that the average non-SVT will see very limited gains (5 hp or less) from an SVT manifold no matter how big it's hogged out. I've dyno'd my car with and without an SVT uppper intake, and in both cases I got power plummeting after 6000 rpms. Even though I cant compare the absolute value of the 2 different dynos, the fact that power still plummeted at the same rpm with and without the SVT upper indicates to me that there is another more significant obstruction to airflow above 6k rpms that shuts us down (cams, lower intake?) This is my dyno with the SVT upper intake on: Dyno with SVT upper This is my older dyno without the SVT upper: 1st dyno without SVT upper Note these were done at two different dyno shops years apart - the only thing I think is significant is that they both show power dropping off after 6k where the SVT upper should support power right out to 7000 rpms and beyond... my humble .02 (I would also think that maybe as the primary runner ports get bigger you might see a small corresponding decrease in the low end tq as the air velocity through the upper would go down, and our low end tq is all about cylinder filling)
97 Contour SE MTX
K&N 3530, UR UDP, 19# Injectors, mystery mod, FMS wires, Fordchip.com chip, SVT: TB, Flywheel, clutch, exhaust
04 Grand Caravan SXT
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I say uninstall the egr mod, it's not going to yield more benefits than it would harm. Talk to Demon about this in specific. Did you do the EGR mod after putting the EH'd man on? As in, dyno'd with the EGR mod done? And i'm agreeing with Coles about the whole hp at the flywheel dillema. I don't see a way for the guy to just come up with a number at the flywheel by using a standard dyno. He can make a close guesstimate based upon your other runs, but nothing solid.
I searched and this is what Demon has to say about the EGR:
Quote:
Well as long as everyone understands deleting the EGR does absolutely nothing for performance.
Plus not having it operational causes the engine to run hotter since it is used to cool the cylinders on deceleration.
Last edited by JonnySVT; 07/14/04 11:18 PM.
99 SVTC, T-Red, #652/2760-12.8.1998
Mother#@%@!* did I sound abstract?
I hope it sounded more confusin than that!
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you guys mention an intake obstruction, but what about exhaust? A stock y pipe would definetly limit hi rpm breathing
2000 csvt #1553
Black/Tan
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Quote:
you guys mention an intake obstruction, but what about exhaust? A stock y pipe would definetly limit hi rpm breathing
WTF are you talking about?
99 SVTC, T-Red, #652/2760-12.8.1998
Mother#@%@!* did I sound abstract?
I hope it sounded more confusin than that!
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Originally posted by zm830101:
you guys mention an intake obstruction, but what about exhaust? A stock y pipe would definetly limit hi rpm breathing
Yes it would, but the SE and SVT y-pipe outlets are the same to start with, so I'd guess the cams and lower intake are what really stop the SE's from making full use of the SVT upper.
97 Contour SE MTX
K&N 3530, UR UDP, 19# Injectors, mystery mod, FMS wires, Fordchip.com chip, SVT: TB, Flywheel, clutch, exhaust
04 Grand Caravan SXT
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