|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,939
Hard-core CEG'er
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,939 |
Liberty, maybe, but what about life? Wasn't that listed first?  Just fanning the fire here. Have a good evening!
2000 Silver Frost SVT
# 1637/2150
D.O.B. 01/14/2000
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Originally posted by TBoomer:
Liberty, maybe, but what about life? Wasn't that listed first?
Just fanning the fire here. Have a good evening!
Discussion is winding down here. Been fun!
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193 |
I consider the balance between life and liberty like old Benny boy did: Originally posted by Benjamin Franklin:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I consider the balance between life and liberty like old Benny boy did:
Originally posted by Benjamin Franklin:
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
That's been bandied about for a long time. Again I querry, what liberty is being surrendered? None, as far as I can tell. BTW, privacy in an airport or on an aircraft is not a freedom or right. You're out in public & utilizing somebody elses equipment & facilities to get to your destination. The expectation of privacy is NIL. Anybody can still travel, it's just a little less convenient because you have to wait at passenger screening. 
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193 |
We define liberty differently. I take a broader definition. Not being able to take basic necessities with me on a carry-on bag is surrending liberty. Forcing people to spend extra hours of their valuable time to get on and off a plane is surrendering liberty. Screening needs to be quick, simple, and reliable. We need to allow people to bring normal items with them when they travel. We need to be reasonable about all this and stop paranoid knee-jerk reactions to everything.
We have gone beyond inconvenience to blind panic.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,220
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,220 |
Quote:
Not being able to take basic necessities with me on a carry-on bag is surrending liberty.
But is it surrendering essential liberty? That's an important qualifier that I'm sure that Franklin said on purpose.
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
Webpage
2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 595
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 595 |
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Tell me why you can carry knitting needles or a 7" wrench on a plane, but lip gloss is banned?
Give me lip gloss, or give me death!
Black 1998.5
3L Oval Port
Full HMS Transmission
Lots of other stuff
Ressurected 06/14/06
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193 |
Fine, the idea that a TSA agent can pull you out of line, interrogate you as much as he or she wants and deny you from boarding a flight without a single shred of evidence is a violation of essential liberty.
The first amendment right to assemble requires freedom of travel.
I interpret Benjamin Franklin to state all liberty is essential, not that only some types are.
Muntus, that's Patrick Henry you're paraphrasing...
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,117 |
Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Muntus, that's Patrick Henry you're paraphrasing...
Very good. You win a cookie.
Your interpretation of Ben is a bit over zealous IMHO. I think he was more reasonable than to say every little freakin' thing we do is an essential liberty - even if the exorcise that liberty endangers others. That's not logical or reasonable thinking.
Your liberties end when they infringe upon the liberies of others. 
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,193 |
Less collective safety does not infringe on the liberties of others, and I believe that is exactly what Benjamin Franklin is referring to. He is very clearly saying liberty is more important than safety.
The ability to go about our daily lives and activities in a resonable manner is a very important liberty to me. These rules prevent that with no proven benefits, and were implemented as a paranoid knee-jerk reaction rather than a well reasoned thought out process.
Maybe part of the difference is I think there are no real benefits for all these rules, and that allowing people to carry their basic toiletries on a plane has a statistically zero chance of endangering anybody.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
|
|
|
|
|
