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No, the biggest thing is we have succeeded in keeping them out of the terminal. We have infiltrated their plans and cracked down on the plots before they are launched.
I am definitely not one of those people who believe any action is OK if it might save a life. I think we need to look at it from a risk/reward point of view. Right now, I think we've gone too far out in punishing everyone for the potential actions of a very few. I think people need to allowed to fly with their basic toiletries and such, even if it means assuming a little risk.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I think people need to allowed to fly with their basic toiletries and such, even if it means assuming a little risk.
I will NOT have YOU choosing what risks are acceptable to me & my family. I will have every reasonable tool utilized to insure the safety of the flying public in general & my family in particular, thank you very much. I don't care how much stress YOU endure, my family are not pawns to be risked for sake of YOUR convenience.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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What gives YOU the right to determine what measures are reasonable and what measures are not? I think we have gone beyond reasonable and into paranoia, which is a victory for the terrorists.
It's all about freedom and fighting government intrusion into our personal lives.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Originally posted by sigma:
I didn't say we couldn't use it. I said they took it further than we could get away with in the US. Big difference there.
Can't use it Vs. unable or not permitted to use it. Same result, yes? Bah, that's just quibbling, so I'll skip it.
Originally posted by sigma:
We can't have the CIA interrogating people at the Gate, for example, (why not?) but we could train our TSA agents in psychological profiling and observation techniques rather than them just being Bin Monkeys. There are certainly aspects we can easily do here in the US without worrying about the ACLU throwing a hissy fit. And some of it will require a slight culture change. Better law enforcement cooperation which is still very lacking years after 9/11 would ensure that the crosschecked records are current and thorough. Having trained security personnel to ask specific poignant questions (that aren't always the same) to gauge reaction should be a basic cornerstone of security, but we only do it in the US on International flights and those entering the borders via car. At least US Customs and Border Patrol tries some sort of observational profiling with their very limited resources, but for domestic flights the TSA might as well be deaf, dumb, and blind.
At this point I'd honestly be happy if we could just get our half-assed "security" system and methods down that we've got right now. But what we really need is a mentality shift akin to the one that El-Al had in the 70's. But, frankly, it's all a moot point because, as long as the TSA is running it, nothing is going to get done.... We certainly can't expect them to do something that is significantly more complicated.
That's kinda an insult to the TSA guys, & I don't think they deserve a lot of the harsh criticism being tossed their way. Sure, many of them are bin jockeys right now, but you can bet that is gonna change over time. I'm sure the government has been looking at what works & implimenting the appropriate techniques in key locations across the country. More training is coming, in process, and will intensify with each attempt to execute a terror plot. Heaven forbid there should be a successful attempt, what then for security? No measure will be too drastic. In the meantime, this discussion has put things into a more rational perspective for me, so perhaps my reaction was a bit rash, but the profiling of what we have seen to be the typical terrorist is still a usable tool in the overall effort IMHO. By your own admission (a few posts back) it is being successfully utilized to some degree by El-Al.
You almost touched on another potential problem for our air travel security efforts. Not the TSA as an organization, or the seeming lack of training, but the complexity of the air travel system. How many airports does El-Al have to monitor? How many DOMESTIC flights do they deal with? Now how many airports are in the U.S. that require monitoring?
Once you complete nationwide training of competent people in the major airports, some of the training is obsolete or is due for refreshing & adaptation - It's gonna take a while to get really revved up for this security. The difference in scale is MAMMOTH, and we'll certainly be looking to technology to make that task a bit more tame.
Freedom of movement has become very taken for granted in this country. Interstate flights should be considered the equal to international. After all, are we not a union of independent nation-states of sorts? A complex task is made more complex still because of sheer numbers. Frankly, these years since 9/11 I think GW & the government in general underestimated the scale of the threat. I suspect they thought they would be dealing with a few terror networks, a bunch of terror cells that they could take out or hunt down in a matter of months. The indoctrination, distrust, & hatered seem to be very deeply seeded and more expansive & passionate than I would have imagined. Scary stuff.
It's late, I'm babbling. Sorry. Good chatting with you. 
<=== (* off to bed *)
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
It's all about freedom and fighting government intrusion into our personal lives.
No. It's all about staying alive & fighting terrorism until it is no longer an issue. This is not the kind of problem you can ignore & it will go away. You will eventually be impacted by it in a very personal & dramatic way if you don't address the threat. It is inevitable as long as the threat exists.
I'm sorry to say it, but the government is our friend on this one. The threat must be ELIMINATED.
OK, I was just baiting you with that last statement.... 
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
I think we have gone beyond reasonable and into paranoia, which is a victory for the terrorists.
No, a victory for the terrorists would have been blowing up a plane. Arresting them is a victory for the free world.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
No. It's all about staying alive & fighting terrorism until it is no longer an issue. This is not the kind of problem you can ignore & it will go away. You will eventually be impacted by it in a very personal & dramatic way if you don't address the threat. It is inevitable as long as the threat exists.
I'm sorry to say it, but the government is our friend on this one. The threat must be ELIMINATED.
OK, I was just baiting you with that last statement....
Welcome to the United States of Fascism?
"Bros before Hoes" <-- More men need this mentality.
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Originally posted by muntus:
No, a victory for the terrorists would have been blowing up a plane. Arresting them is a victory for the free world.
Is it really? The goal of terrorism is to inflict terror, it isn't just about a body count, but it is very psychological. If all they were concerned about was body count, do you think they would have chosen this route? Or even what they did on 9/11. Not even close.
Even though the plan of the bombings was not carried out, they still won, because all over the West the sheep in our societies are watching their news and trembling in fear over the thought of these attacks.
"Bros before Hoes" <-- More men need this mentality.
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Originally posted by Pete D:
Welcome to the United States of Fascism?
So we defend against Islamo-fascism and we're the ones who are the fascists?
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Originally posted by Pete D:
Originally posted by muntus:
No, a victory for the terrorists would have been blowing up a plane. Arresting them is a victory for the free world.
Is it really? The goal of terrorism is to inflict terror, it isn't just about a body count, but it is very psychological. If all they were concerned about was body count, do you think they would have chosen this route? Or even what they did on 9/11. Not even close.
Even though the plan of the bombings was not carried out, they still won, because all over the West the sheep in our societies are watching their news and trembling in fear over the thought of these attacks.
They create terror through death. Terror without death is not their goal. If indeed terror, even without death, was their ultimate goal(which it isn't), they would all study computer programming, acquire jobs in every sector they could, and unleash an electronic assault in order to shut down communications, banking, internet, and power grids. That would inflict more terror than blowing up planes.
So why the samll scale terror(blowing up planes instead of shutting down the continent)? Their ultimate goal is to kill the infidels. Terror is a nice by-product.
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