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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
I read that lame SF Chronical article...it does not mention what the tax breaks are specifiacally.
Yeah, that piece is a bright shining star of 'objective journalism'. 
Here is an important part that was stuffed under the bed:
"Pay $2 billion in transition costs over eight years to manufacturers as MTBE is phased out."
So the evil, water-poisoning Republicans voted to fund the phasing out of a toxic substance. Imagine that. 
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469 |
Originally posted by ODC:
Is it really necessary to insult a group that is trying to conserve the enviroment ?
Is it wrong to criticize the "intellectual rigor" of persons who imbrace junk science or incomplete science before implimenting expensive and farreaching policy? That MTBE is a carcinogen was easy to determine, that it would wind up in the environment was also very testable by experimentation...pretty basic stuff here. And now, lymphoma rates are up in corraletion with MTBE concentration in the environment...(no proof its a cause by the way - and NOW we possibly overreacting the other direction!). All reaction...no careful study or thought. And that is typical of many "greenies". It that is an registers as an insult..so be it. Meaning well is not enough.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637
Veteran CEG\'er
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OP
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637 |
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Also humorous is the moaning about MTBE, "which has contaminated drinking water in states from California to Maine". This is an addive that the greenies were pushing for because it lowers hydrocarbon production, turns out to cause cancer...Another well thought out anti-pollution reaction.
Dan, my friend. Please show me sources supporting your statement that environmental groups were responsible for the harm caused by MTBE. Let's see your sources showing that MTBE was developed and promoted by the Sierra Club or something, and not by the oil and chemical industries.
Are you saying that since the enviros pushed for cleaner fuel, they are responsible for whatever happened after that? Are you saying the oil and chemical industries, and the government, and the gas station owners who didn't bother to monitor leakage from their tanks, were free to be negligent, just because the enviros were asking for cleaner air? Don't make me mad.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,118 |
Originally posted by caltour:
Don't make me mad.
Or else what, you will post some more biased garbage, proclaim it to be gospel, and cry when people call you a left wing nut?
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,899
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 4,899 |
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Originally posted by caltour:
Don't make me mad.
Or else what, you will post some more biased garbage, proclaim it to be gospel, and cry when people call you a left wing nut?
OMGWTFLOLBBQ!!!111
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Or else what, you will post some more biased garbage, proclaim it to be gospel, and cry when people call you a left wing nut?
Please post links to specific, credible sources of when caltour has cried when people called him a nut. You will also need to prove that he is a left-wing nut. Links to his posts with the relevant quotes (points made bold please) should be contained in your post. Also, I will need statistical proof that what caltour has posted was biased, and statistical proof that it was garbage, complete with chemical analysis and human smell tests (if the smell tests are available).
But your claim that he proclaims it to be gospel will be accepted without further proof.
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469 |
Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Also humorous is the moaning about MTBE, "which has contaminated drinking water in states from California to Maine". This is an addive that the greenies were pushing for because it lowers hydrocarbon production, turns out to cause cancer...Another well thought out anti-pollution reaction.
Dan, my friend. Please show me sources supporting your statement that environmental groups were responsible for the harm caused by MTBE. Let's see your sources showing that MTBE was developed and promoted by the Sierra Club or something, and not by the oil and chemical industries.
Are you saying that since the enviros pushed for cleaner fuel, they are responsible for whatever happened after that? Are you saying the oil and chemical industries, and the government, and the gas station owners who didn't bother to monitor leakage from their tanks, were free to be negligent, just because the enviros were asking for cleaner air? Don't make me mad.
I most certainly do not want to make you mad..so I will explain my rational...
MTBE goes back to at least the 70s so the original parties involved in getting it into the fuel..I have no idea. But, in modern times..since the early 90s, California has been pushing the concentration to higher and higher levels. They have the biggest ground water problem by and large. Now, who would be behind that? Meanwhile, Califorina's concentration of 'greenies" is increasing to higher and higher levels. Coincidence? I would argue that California has a higher "greenie ratio" than any other state and also has a higher MTBE to gas ratio than any other state...
Hense, we could say the the % of MTBE correlates DIRECTLY with the % of greenie on a statewide basis. So I present a theory to be proved or disproved. One way to test this would be to eliminate greenies from California and see if that correlated with a decline in MTBE contamination. THIS study, if properly controlled, would be an example of good science...because either way it goes, California wins!
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,132
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,132 |
Aren't all politicians supposed to do some pork barrel spending? It�s good for their state & gives them a lot of close friends.
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,889
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,889 |
"In 1991, the California Air Resources Board (ARB) adopted rules for California Reformulated Gasoline (CaRFG2) which began implementation in 1996. The refiners in California selected MTBE as the oxygenate of choice to meet both the federal oxygen requirement and the CaRFG2 emissions requirements. The refineries selected MTBE over other oxygenates due to is availability, lower cost, high octane value, ability to dilute other harmful gasoline components, and good mixing and volatility properties."
Are the "Greenies" at fault or was MTBE the cheapest route?
The end for oil is coming(as a primary energy source) and oil companies are trying to figure out how to remain viable and still make huge profits in the future. I don't see them as the best group to be funding to find a replacement energy source. Think of the infrastucture they would have to develop and transfer from oil to whatever before they even bring a product to market!
There are other companies out there that are years ahead of these guys and would can only make money if their product succeeds on the open market where as big oil has less motivation to find the answer for what is already producing huge profits for them.
99 Contour Sport SE MTX
KKM filter, B&M shifter
No res, BAT kit
Green car silver hood (because silver is faster)
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,469 |
Originally posted by RT and his SE:
Are the "Greenies" at fault or was MTBE the cheapest route?
IMO..both. Oil companies took the cheapest route to a solution to a problem. Greenies "special interest group" pressure likely drove politicians to enact legislation that was hastily concieved..resulting in poorly concieved, ill thought out solutions. More careful analysis could have predicted this problem don't you think (this was not quite as "unpredicatble as some things)...careful legislation could have prevented using high concentrations of known carcinogenic compounds in gasoline. I suspect legislatures just wanted to crank out a quick solution because of pressure on them...oil companies did same.
I certainly want clean air and water, like everyone else..I just see this fiasco as an "action-reaction" substitute for careful study and planning for the desired result, thats all. Special interest groups..on both sides of the political spectrum..are by definition narrow of mind and focus, even if well meaning.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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