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Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Hey Corbett - about 12 pages ago you claimed that our country was founded on biblical principles. I'm still curious to know which principles you are referring to. Have you found any yet?
Hmmmm...
Originally posted by Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...."
Originally posted by John Adams:
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Originally posted by George Mason:
"The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth,"
Originally posted by Charles Cotesworth Pinckney:
"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land."
Originally posted by George Washington:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."
Originally posted by Patrick Henry:
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.
Originally posted by John Jay:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
Originally posted by United States Supreme Court, 1892:
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... ... ...This is a Christian Nation."
More quotes but where are the specific Christian principles? Is there any reference in scripture to the principles(self-governance, freedom from tyranny, taxation/representation) for which the founding fathers started a revolution? Maybe you should reread the question.
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Hey Corbett - about 12 pages ago you claimed that our country was founded on biblical principles. I'm still curious to know which principles you are referring to . Have you found any yet?
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Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
Originally posted by Nate S:
Give me evidence that links us to the primates. 90%, if that is the number is still a far way off from being 100%.
Chimpanses are about 99% identical to humans at the DNA level. Many, many indiviual genes show levels of similarity even higher and some are virtually identical. There is no question that we are genetically related to the great apes, missing link or no. You can debate whether or not there was a "divine power" guiding the evolution of man away from the apes but little room for doubt that we were cut from the same cloth.
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-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Corbett, it is true that the founding fathers said they were founding a nation on christian principles. As your quotes show, they said so often. As leaders of a predominantly christian public, what else could they do? If they hoped to establish and govern a new nation, they had to reassure the public that the government would reflect christian principles.
But you are mistaking their words for their deeds. Look at the constitution and declaration of independence. They largely reflect not christian principles, but secular humanist ones. Democracy itself is a secular humanist creation, and it owes virtually nothing to christian dogma. Individual liberty, religious pluralism, self governance, freedom from domination by hereditary rulers, etc: these are not biblical concepts by any stretch of the imagination.
The founding fathers (at least the ones that prevailed in the debates that culminated in our constitution) were children of the Enlightenment, and the government they founded reflected that. The references in the founding documents to God, the Creator, etc., are probably good faith reflections of their spiritual beliefs. But when it came to creating a democratic government, they set their religious beliefs aside and relied almost exclusively on the principles of secular humanism.
This is why it is so scary to have fundamentalist christians aiming for political power. Almost any changes they would make to reflect biblical principles would erode the very bedrock of our secular humanist government.
Just to give one example: what if the christians succeed in banning stem cell research? They would be using biblical principles to destroy scientific inquiry. The fire-and-brimstone people might be happy about it, but the founding fathers (and the Enlightenment scholars who established modern science) would be appalled.
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Originally posted by caltour:
This is why it is so scary to have fundamentalist christians aiming for political power. Almost any changes they would make to reflect biblical principles would erode the very bedrock of our secular humanist government.
Just to give one example: what if the christians succeed in banning stem cell research? They would be using biblical principles to destroy scientific inquiry. The fire-and-brimstone people might be happy about it, but the founding fathers (and the Enlightenment scholars who established modern science) would be appalled.
Aiming for political power is the right of any...including a fundementalist musliim or atheist. That does not imply that the constitution will be changed.
Your example is an instructive one. I personally support all forms of stem cell research. But I have heard no mention by any Christian of banning it. They opposed FEDERAL TAXPAYER dollars, including dollars drawn from their own pockets, to support embryonic stem cell research but not peripheral blood or chord blood stem cell research (which as an asside has generally been more sucessful to date..not to say the it might not be surpassed by embryonic). No problem with Private funding for Emryonic. Corporate funding. No problem with State tax dollars as California is doing. Though I would personally have no problem with my tax dollars on embryonic research, I can acknowlege that others might and can go along with diverting NIH research dollars to other science...adult stem cell, gene therapy, growth factor therapy, nanotech, etc. that may be equally likely to cure a given condition (spinal injury etc).
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Originally posted by Swazo:
I was going to post a link to the Aryan Nation website, but it is not work friendly, let alone people friendly for that matter.
and that is exactly why i didn't post the link either. at first i thought you were saying that they are christians but then i reread your post and i figured out what you were saying.
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"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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When it comes down to it, I believe the ACLU anti-religious zealots and the American Taliban religious zealots are both out of control.
Free exercise of religion (or the choice to abstain from practicing) means that government should not pass laws on people based on the morality of a religion, but rather only pass laws preventing harm from occurring to people who do not or cannot consent.
It should allow the public preaching of any and all faiths, the ability to people to privately invoke whatever diety they wish to or to abstain from invoking such diety at mealtimes. Any religious text should be allowed during free times only (not part of classroom reading time).
Whether or not our nation was founded on Christian principles is completely irrelevant to the here and now. We have progressed in some ways over the last 200 years, and to expand our thinking that people have the right to be who they are regardless of race, gender, and religion are a continuing part of that progression.
... I would start by removing the property tax exemptions on Church property, which is government promoting the establishment of religion by subsidizing their property.
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Originally posted by Swazo:
It really isn't too simplistic if you know some of the modern history of, let's use Mexico for example. Look at how the Castilians' have held onto power there and how they came into it.
Wow. There's a lot here we could pick apart. Yes I do happen to know a bit of the modern history of, let's say Mexico. For starters we have different understandings of what modern history is. You're going all the way back to the conquest and I was thinking back to the revolution.
I still maintain that the church in Mexico is not by itself resposible for the poor state of political and economic affairs today. It played its part yes. But to single out the church is to ignore vast government corruption and incompetence, the 'war' with the U.S., and the drug trade, just to name a few.
Plus, I wonder if you take into account how the government was able marginalize the church and the throne and take over sole control of the country rather than share power. Nor do you seem to consider that even when the church was at its most influential, the Mexican people had a highly resistant and rebellious nature that ended up transforming catholicism to some extent so that it would conform to their indiginous beliefs. Dia de los muertos, Virgin de Guadalupe for example. There's too much more to bring up here. And we could probably go on and on but I have a feeling we should just agree to disagree. 
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While we're on the suject of "the country was founded on Christian principles," can someone explain why many if not most far-right editorialists constantly refer to "our country's Judeo-Christian heritage?" The quotes listed on the last page mention nothing about Judaism (unless you want to somehow argue that their belief in the Old Testament is interchageable with Christian beliefs), and Jews - particularly the intellectuals - weren't present in the US in major numbers until the late-1800's.
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Originally posted by Viss1:
While we're on the suject of "the country was founded on Christian principles," can someone explain why many if not most far-right editorialists constantly refer to "our country's Judeo-Christian heritage?" The quotes listed on the last page mention nothing about Judaism (unless you want to somehow argue that their belief in the Old Testament is interchageable with Christian beliefs), and Jews - particularly the intellectuals - weren't present in the US in major numbers until the late-1800's.
I believe Judeo-Christian comes from the fact that Christianity was started with the Jews, and branched out from there...Other than, I don't know...
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I'd agree with that because Jesus was a Jew. Most initial christians were converted Jews who thought that Jesus was the messiah.
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