Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums Modifications Brakes 99% Front Brakes!

OK MFE,

Ignoring the brain cell comment for the moment, why do you believe the problem is the fronts?

I have my theories why it probably isn't, but I'd like to hear your rational.

And one precursor - the pull to the right, as stated before is only very slight.

Nice Marley quotes and horse and water analogies, but WHAT do you THINK is the ACTUAL problem with the front brakes?

I.E. "I think air in the fronts is expanding and causing brake drag" or "Your sliding pins are not free"

You know ..... actual tips or theories not just a bunch of arm waving, insults and sayings. BTW - I disagree with the above but they were just examples.

It sure seems odd that a front brake would apply more force (leading to heat) than commanded. There is not excessive wheel drag in my case.

So I'll repeat, WHAT do you THINK is the ACTUAL problem with the front brakes?

What, you're so smart you can afford to hold your hands over your ears and shout "la la la la la" to brake experts but you can't fathom what to look for in the front brakes? You're killing me. I told you, I'm done. I'm not going to waste the motion of one more finger to help you out only to be told you don't think any of it could possibly be a factor while demonstrating less than zero willingness to get out and actually do something about it.

Put a proportioning valve in each of your front brake lines and dial it all the way out.

I would like to know what would lead you to believe that the front brakes are "applying more force.. leading to heat.. than commanded.

Are you using your IR temp readings to justify this, or simply a theory, or what?

My point is this: You are saying that they are creating "too much heat", and that the rears don't seem to be exhibiting "enough heat" (to paraphrase), and in turn is turning you towards a biasing problem...

With no data to actually prove that is the problem, and only guesses as to the fact that it is, indeed, "too much" heat in the front.. that is as far as you can go, really. Until you can repeat the exact test, on another car identical to yours, you are stuck.. (that or get pressure readings from the lines, and see if you ARE out of range...)

Until then, all I have seen is:

a GUESS that bias is wrong.
some arguments that it isn't.
a few temp readings by me and you..
some guesses that those MIGHT be too high.

key words in there are "GUESS" and "GUESSES". You keep telling people that they could be wrong, etc, etc... (and they could...) but this applies in both directions... theories are only starting points. Data is a foundation that supports your theory. Theories cannot support data, no matter what the data "might" be. So far, nobody in this thread has any "data", at least not in the form of pressure ranges, heat ranges, etc... (RARA and TCE have provided invaluable knowledge on the workings of the braking system, and you and I provided temps.. but this doesn't prove anything.. only disproves (possibly) a problem..)


Let's get to PROVING this problem, or at least get on the track of finding out HOW to eliminate this as a culprit for sure (instead of arguing on why it could/couldn't be... let's just do it...)




Ray

Ray,

Thanks for the welcomed civility. I'll track down the IR temp gauge again ASAP -and you are right that it is time to just get more data. Damn day job and paying bills in the way.

The "applying more force than commanded" in the fronts wasn't my theory, it was only in response to MFE's "hey dumbass it is the FRONT idiot .... the FRONT" type of notes.

If the rear bias is too low, but know-it-all MFE says it is the fronts that are the problem not the backs, then the fronts simply get "too much" pressure. I find that hard to buy but was just trying to hear his theories on it - they seem to involve Bob Marley and nothing of substance.

So I am hesitant to disassemble the fronts or change anything yet until I got the existing temps after a longer drive. Then I'll inspect, diagnose and remeasure. Otherwise I can't prove squat of an improvement.

Rephrase for MFE: I don't want to tear apart and alter the fronts until I get baseline data .....(plus I don't believe the problem lies there but amy eventually have to look there).

Funny how getting a good baseline is part of problem solving .... maybe mentioned as part of the CDW27 DVP&R process, huh?

Until I get my data: Can any CEG'er comfortably touch est 110 F your rear rotors immediately after 30-40 minutes of stop/go normal city driving at up to 55 mph?

Flat palm those babies in the rear for 5 minutes and tell me what happens. The brake experts say it is normal to be that cool. I'll glady show you many other front wheel drive vehicles that will nicely roast some skin on the rear rotors after the same driving cycle. Physics identified by TCE and RARA must not apply to those vehicles.

Yes - many ideas and limited data on certain sides, but tons of "idiot .... rears are supposed to be underbiased"
before ANY data is out"

At least they should have flat palmed their rear rotors before palming their keyboard with the expert answer.

There was, if even for a brief moment, a sense of civil conversation to be started. I sense that you still reverted back to word lashing at a few people (RARA, TCE, and MFE) and I am sure its because of your confrontations with them in the past. Let's let "old dogs lie", on both sides, shall we?


So those guys don't wanna listen to you, and you don't wanna listen to them... IF we can't be CIVIL about it, regardless of our disagreement, then we are no better than any OTHER board out there (and I, as well as many, many others rate this board as MUCH better and more mature than nearly any other)

So... deep breaths, all of us..

Ray

I guess I will jump in here. From what I have gathered from the article that is attached. Maintaining tire grip to road surface is criticle for effectiving braking to say the least. Generally speaking, additional weight load and I quote

The maximum braking force that a particular tire can generate is theoretically equal to the coefficient of friction of the tire-road interface multiplied by the amount of weight being supported by that corner of the car.

I take this to mean that weight that the tires are supporting has a direct relationship in the ability of a tire to apply maximum braking effort. Since most of the weight of the Contour is on the front end, I would take this to mean that more effective braking is accomplished in the front compared to the back which is very light. Since the backend is very light, increasing rear bias could create a very dangerous situation - since the tires would tend to lock-up more and you would lose control due to the light back end. Of course one way to compensate for this would be to add more weight to the backend of the car.

In my general observation, it seems that the front end should handle the major load in braking the car due to the weight it is supporting and the fact that the backend is light and would not provide equal braking ability as compared to the fronts.......

Bob
P.S. And I don't even mention the additional weight added to the front from dynamic load shifting........

http://bobt.gotdns.com/brake.htm

Sheesh,

I guess I'm not on the mark here. Hate to think my message shut down this thread