Is the timing belt tensioner adjustable?

Thanks, guys, but I don't know what spring or post you are referring to, or how I get them to set the proper tension.

Maybe somebody has a photo they can post?

In another sense - No . The belt is held in tension by a spring loaded wheel. As the belt stretches the spring is designed to press the wheel against the belt to remove slack. Cleaning it, readjusting it, may help. It may be worn out, or just the belt may need replacing.
Question
How many miles on the belt?
Ford says replace belt at 100 t0 125 k miles.

Westcoastajax, the belt (and the whole car) have 27,000 miles on them.

I just now got the top cover off and got a good look at the belt and tensioner. They look like new. The tensioner seems to be holding the belt tight. Everything looks good.

The reason I asked about adjusting the tensioner is because the motor is making a rattling sound in that general area. Fairly loud, but not metallic. Now that I've removed the cover and see the belt and tensioner look OK, I don't know what the hell could be causing it.

Originally posted by caltour:
Westcoastajax, the belt (and the whole car) have 27,000 miles on them.

I just now got the top cover off and got a good look at the belt and tensioner. They look like new. The tensioner seems to be holding the belt tight. Everything looks good.

The reason I asked about adjusting the tensioner is because the motor is making a rattling sound in that general area. Fairly loud, but not metallic. Now that I've removed the cover and see the belt and tensioner look OK, I don't know what the hell could be causing it.

Is there too much play between the cam gears? No matter how much you try to tighten it at the adjuster you'll still have a rattle, and or a bad idle...unless you adjust the belt, using the proper technique [the right tools and remembering to loosen the cam pulley bolts when setting your tension].

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by caltour:
Westcoastajax, the belt (and the whole car) have 27,000 miles on them.

I just now got the top cover off and got a good look at the belt and tensioner. They look like new. The tensioner seems to be holding the belt tight. Everything looks good.

The reason I asked about adjusting the tensioner is because the motor is making a rattling sound in that general area. Fairly loud, but not metallic. Now that I've removed the cover and see the belt and tensioner look OK, I don't know what the hell could be causing it.

Is there too much play between the cam gears? No matter how much you try to tighten it at the adjuster you'll still have a rattle, and or a bad idle...unless you adjust the belt, using the proper technique [the right tools and remembering to loosen the cam pulley bolts when setting your tension].

Thanks for the info. The belt has only about 1/8th of an inch of play between the cam gears. I don't know what how much play there is supposed to be, but it seems fairly tight.

I have the top cover off, and I can't see anything the belt could be rattling against. Are there any other parts on a Zetec that might cause this rattling sound?

Originally posted by caltour:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by caltour:
Westcoastajax, the belt (and the whole car) have 27,000 miles on them.

I just now got the top cover off and got a good look at the belt and tensioner. They look like new. The tensioner seems to be holding the belt tight. Everything looks good.

The reason I asked about adjusting the tensioner is because the motor is making a rattling sound in that general area. Fairly loud, but not metallic. Now that I've removed the cover and see the belt and tensioner look OK, I don't know what the hell could be causing it.

Is there too much play between the cam gears? No matter how much you try to tighten it at the adjuster you'll still have a rattle, and or a bad idle...unless you adjust the belt, using the proper technique [the right tools and remembering to loosen the cam pulley bolts when setting your tension].

Thanks for the info. The belt has only about 1/8th of an inch of play between the cam gears. I don't know what how much play there is supposed to be, but it seems fairly tight.

I have the top cover off, and I can't see anything the belt could be rattling against. Are there any other parts on a Zetec that might cause this rattling sound?

Did the rattle go away, once the top cover was removed? That's a common source for noise...the top cover, when the belt is real loose and old, or when it's just been replaced, w/o the proper tools and methods.

I can't think of anything else that would *rattle*...except maybe your converter...my Hi-Flo Y-Pipe rattled at an idle, or if you'd barely increase the idle. Maybe if you could stick a heater hose in your ear [being serious]...or at least a paper towel roll [just don't let anybody see you], you might be able to pinpoint the noise a little bit better.

Happy 4th

Meangreen, the rattle didn't go away after I took off the cover. Same noise.

I did like you said, and I listened (using a wooden stick instead of a hose; I pressed one end of a dowel against various places on the motor, and pressed the other end against my ear), and I couldn't find the source of the noise.

Car has 27k miles, and the belt and everything else looks fine.

I don't think it's the converter, because the converter appears to be located in front of the motor, and the rattle seems to be coming from the upper passenger side of the motor. I'm stumped.

Aaaaarrrrgh!

Originally posted by WestCoastAjax:
In another sense - No . The belt is held in tension by a spring loaded wheel. As the belt stretches the spring is designed to press the wheel against the belt to remove slack.

Not really -- the tensioner is held rigid in operation, the spring is only used while setting the tension. This is why the car ships with no spring in it and you have to buy the spring later.

Thanks, Paul! I am starting to figure out where the rattle is coming from. Before your post, I thought the slight side-to-side movement in my tensioner pully was normal, i.e. just the "tensioner spring" taking up a little slack. But as you said, the tensioner pully should not be moving back and forth. So maybe that's where the rattling is coming from. I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow.

Originally posted by caltour:
Thanks, Paul! I am starting to figure out where the rattle is coming from. Before your post, I thought the slight side-to-side movement in my tensioner pully was normal, i.e. just the "tensioner spring" taking up a little slack. But as you said, the tensioner pully should not be moving back and forth. So maybe that's where the rattling is coming from. I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow.

None of my business, but I hope they're nice enough to have purchased the proper tools for that engine...crankshaft timing peg [installs near PCV valve]...camshaft timing tool [flat bar]...and a good cam sprocket holding/removing tool.

Good info. I'll ask them if they have those tools, before I leave the car with them.

Originally posted by caltour:
Good info. I'll ask them if they have those tools, before I leave the car with them.

If it's a pretty good shop that employees a few certified mechanics/maniacs

that aren't afraid to fill up their fancy boxes with actual tools, they shouldn't get offended for you asking...if it does offend them, not a good sign, imo.

btw, there are 2 styles of tensioners, I think. One that requires a spring and new bolt [dealer items...Part Nos. W700001-S309/6L277] or the newer design that is pretty neat...no spring, just rotate till the marks line up.

Good luck.

Thanks for the part number. I'll look into that new design. It would be nice to get one that lasted longer than the first one (27,000 miles! Grrr.)

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by caltour:
Thanks, Paul! I am starting to figure out where the rattle is coming from. Before your post, I thought the slight side-to-side movement in my tensioner pully was normal, i.e. just the "tensioner spring" taking up a little slack. But as you said, the tensioner pully should not be moving back and forth. So maybe that's where the rattling is coming from. I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow.

None of my business, but I hope they're nice enough to have purchased the proper tools for that engine...crankshaft timing peg [installs near PCV valve]...camshaft timing tool [flat bar]...and a good cam sprocket holding/removing tool.

A timing peg (whatever that is) and a cam sprocket tool are not necessary. And any mechanic will have a file that will fit to hold the cams. Most mechanics will not have a problem doing a simple timing belt change on a zetec. In fact, I'm sure most have done them before. I even found a shop (the only shop) that had no trouble installing my cam gears and actually doing it in less time than they thought it would take.

Kremit, how would they re-set the timing w/o the cam sprocket tool? When they take out the old tensioner, the belt will go slack. Won't that throw off the timing?

Originally posted by caltour:
Thanks for the part number. I'll look into that new design. It would be nice to get one that lasted longer than the first one (27,000 miles! Grrr.)

The later models have the new design, they really can't be altered.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by caltour:
Thanks, Paul! I am starting to figure out where the rattle is coming from. Before your post, I thought the slight side-to-side movement in my tensioner pully was normal, i.e. just the "tensioner spring" taking up a little slack. But as you said, the tensioner pully should not be moving back and forth. So maybe that's where the rattling is coming from. I'm taking it to a mechanic tomorrow.

None of my business, but I hope they're nice enough to have purchased the proper tools for that engine...crankshaft timing peg [installs near PCV valve]...camshaft timing tool [flat bar]...and a good cam sprocket holding/removing tool.

A timing peg (whatever that is) and a cam sprocket tool are not necessary. And any mechanic will have a file that will fit to hold the cams. Most mechanics will not have a problem doing a simple timing belt change on a zetec. In fact, I'm sure most have done them before. I even found a shop (the only shop) that had no trouble installing my cam gears and actually doing it in less time than they thought it would take.

You don't know about the tool that fits right in the access hole in the block that Ford designed for the tool that they designed to hold the crank? Tells me all I need to know.

Cam spocket tool isn't necessary, even on the newer ones? Really?

File? LOL

Doing them, or doing them right?

You found a shop? Why? Not doing the job yourself, expert?

Originally posted by caltour:
Kremit, how would they re-set the timing w/o the cam sprocket tool? When they take out the old tensioner, the belt will go slack. Won't that throw off the timing?

Unless they love taking the chances of damaging the engine, the cam sprocket tool is a really smart decision...especially for those that cram wrenches or old files in the ends of the cams

They can throw a belt on, but chances are there will be extra play in the belt between the cam gears for those that replace belts w/o touching the cam gears, on that engine.

Maybe because I've done it myself (timing belt, water pump, tensioner, and idler pulleys). I didn't do the cam gears because I had already done the stuff once myself and yes it is a bit more work if cam gears have to be touched and more tools are needed. But guess what, if cam gears are not being changed (atleast on pre98s), then timing does not change. You lock the cams in at TDC with ANY piece of decent metal (a file WILL work fine) and you have the crank pulley aligned with the notch on the block. It's all pretty easy stuff to do. The only time I've heard of needing any kind of peg was during an engine rebuild. Ooo but what would I know, I've only done it on my own car.

Originally posted by caltour:
Kremit, how would they re-set the timing w/o the cam sprocket tool? When they take out the old tensioner, the belt will go slack. Won't that throw off the timing?

Lock the cams with a piece of metal first and have crank pulley pointed at its correct notch. When you install the new tensioner correctly, there will be no slack between any gears/pulleys.

It may be best to listen to zetec owners when it comes to doing work to a zetec.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by caltour:
Kremit, how would they re-set the timing w/o the cam sprocket tool? When they take out the old tensioner, the belt will go slack. Won't that throw off the timing?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Lock the cams with a piece of metal

Best to use the proper tool that is designed for the specific job.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
first and have crank pulley pointed at its correct notch.

Best to have the crank pointed and *locked* with the proper tool that was designed to be placed in the access hole that was designed into the Zetec block, allowing the proper tool to do its job.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
When you install the new tensioner correctly, there will be no slack between any gears/pulleys.

If you can't put the real tool back into the slot, once the belt is installed, then there's too much slack and the cams aren't properly aligned...that's why it provides instructions on how to *adjust* the timing belt by readjusting the cam pulleys.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
It may be best to listen to zetec owners when it comes to doing work to a zetec.

Best to listen to anybody that uses the proper tools and follows the proper procedures, using quality books by Helm, not Haynes, when it comes to working on a Zetec.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Maybe because I've done it myself (timing belt, water pump, tensioner, and idler pulleys). I didn't do the cam gears because I had already done the stuff once myself and yes it is a bit more work if cam gears have to be touched and more tools are needed.

More tools...as in: Ford's T74P-6256-B that's listed in Ford's Workshop Manual, in the section for "In-Vehicle Repairs" (Timing Belt Replacement) page number 303-01A-63 ...as one of the 3 tools that they say are required for proper timing belt replacement?

No *extra* tools are needed to get those cams off, I see.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
But guess what, if cam gears are not being changed (atleast on pre98s), then timing does not change. You lock the cams in at TDC with ANY piece of decent metal (a file WILL work fine) and you have the crank pulley aligned with the notch on the block. It's all pretty easy stuff to do. The only time I've heard of needing any kind of peg was during an engine rebuild. Ooo but what would I know, I've only done it on my own car.

You're just making excuses for not buying the tools and doing a job, skipping over some of the required and/or suggested steps, to save money. Doing it isn't the same as doing it exactly right, following all the procedures, using all the tools that are suggested and designed by Ford, for their Zetec, when replacing the timing belt.

Use a file? LOL

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
The only time I've heard of needing any kind of peg was during an engine rebuild. Ooo but what would I know, I've only done it on my own car.

Not surprised that you've never heard of the *Timing Peg* that is listed as one of the special tools that is mentioned when replacing the *Timing Belt*

I'm too sick right now to make a decent reply, but I will say again, it's better to listen to a zetec owner when it comes to working on a zetec. I go by experience, you know actually doing the job, and hmm must be doing something right as my car runs fine. Anybody can look in a book and read how it's "supposed" to be done. Just like using spring compressors on the strut assembly before removing them from the car, well I guess since the book says to do it that way, that that's the best way to do it.

If you really want to waste time/money doing everything by the book then go ahead and do it that way.

You realize if you replace the timing belt with the cams locked (with any piece of metal, seriously, have you done a timing belt on a zetec?, just a strong piece of metal to hold the cams is needed, not some specially engineered thing) then the cam gears aren't gonna move while replacing the belt. NOW, if you can't fit the piece of metal in to lock the cams, then you could have to remove the gears, but that rarely rarely happens. Cam gears shouldn't need to be touched during a timing belt replacement. The tensioner keeps the belt free of slack once installed, soooo

What did you do with your zetec? Throw it away?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I'm too sick right now to make a decent reply, but I will say again, it's better to listen to a zetec owner when it comes to working on a zetec.

You can't convince me that doing the job right with the right tools, following procedure is the wrong way to do it.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I go by experience, you know actually doing the job,

Doing the job, once, to one engine?

I've worked on 1,000s of cars since '83

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
and hmm must be doing something right as my car runs fine.

I use the right tools, go the extra distance for my customers.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Anybody can look in a book and read how it's "supposed" to be done.

I use Mitchell On Demand DVDs, mainly.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Just like using spring compressors on the strut assembly before removing them from the car, well I guess since the book says to do it that way, that that's the best way to do it.

My compressor is a Branick 7200...a little over 6' tall w/ its stand.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
If you really want to waste time/money doing everything by the book then go ahead and do it that way.

I charge by the hour, and my tools are a nice deduction, so it pays to do the job right the first time.

I bet my customers are glad that I don't use files, wooden boards, high-heeled shoes, etc...

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You realize if you replace the timing belt with the cams locked

At the back side, that's why the pulley end needs to be loosened, when making adjustments, that's why Zetec's cam pulleys are *not* keyed, like most are. And Ford sure doesn't want mechanics using files, and letting the camshafts be their own *camshaft* holding tools.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
(with any piece of metal, seriously, have you done a timing belt on a zetec?,

Zetec, Hondas/Acuras, Mazdas, Isuzus, Volvos, VWs, Dodges, GMs, Toyotas, Suzukis, etc...

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
just a strong piece of metal to hold the cams is needed, not some specially engineered thing)

I use tools, not scrap.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
then the cam gears aren't gonna move while replacing the belt.

They don't move, that's why they need to be moved, using the right tools, sometimes...you can't just slap the engine cover back on if the belt is not right.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
NOW, if you can't fit the piece of metal in to lock the cams, then you could have to remove the gears, but that rarely rarely happens.

No, I do it about 50% of the time on the Zetecs...I want it to be as good as it can be.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Cam gears shouldn't need to be touched during a timing belt replacement. The tensioner keeps the belt free of slack once installed, soooo

They are, when they're designed to be adjusted/moved, during replacement, like the Zetec...and GMs 3.4, those pulleys have to be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeal loose when doing a belt replacement...have to rotate the cams 180 degrees, with belt installed, when setting the tension/getting the cams and crank in time.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
What did you do with your zetec? Throw it away?

I don't have a Zetec, mine is a V-6

I just got back from the mechanic's shop. He took the top timing belt cover and middle timng belt cover off the motor, and found the problem: the timing belt idler pulley on the lower right side is disintegrating. It's missing large chunks! A fine quality part that lasted for 27,000 miles.

The mechanic wanted $400 to replace the pully. He said the pully costs $60 and the rest is labor. He said I really should also replace the belt, the tensioner and the other two idler pullies, and that would be an extra $200, for a total of $600.

I declined (too expensive). So I had the car towed home just now. I've got my repair manual and some hand tools, and I am going to try to replace the idler pully myself. yikes

It is must be nice to be so over paid that you can throw away aftermarket parts. I do agree on one thing, the cams should not be their own camshaft holders, BUT again, a special tool is not needed, you can use a wrench on a certain part of the cams to hold them. Though I didn't even have to do that because there is another way to hold them as well, but I don't suggest it for everyone to do. I guess you don't even know what kind of file I am talking about. A large file that is used to sharpen blades (not fingernails), a file that is in the same shape/size as the ford tool will perform the same job as the ford tool.

Anyways, I obviously know how to work on a zetec (yes A zetec, so I guess if I had to work on another, I couldn't do it, because I've only worked on A zetec yet it still runs fine

). I think you'd be a mechanic I would avoid, number 1 because you probably over charge for a SIMPLE timing belt replacement, because you think you have to buy hundreds of tools to do it. Yet I can change it in my backyard. Any decent mechanic will know how to change a timing belt (correctly) on a zetec and will already have the tools to do it (even if they aren't all ford specific tools). I know the performance shop that installed my cam gears didn't have all the Ford tools yet they managed to install my cam gears perfectly and in less time (less cost) than they had originally quoted. But I'm sure you could find something to argue about with the owner of the performance shop, an owner that builds and races various race cars. There will always be a "by the book" way and then there will be the "what works" way. I go by the "what works" way because it's cheaper, takes less time, and guess what?,,, it works.

Originally posted by caltour:
I just got back from the mechanic's shop. He took the top timing belt cover and middle timng belt cover off the motor, and found the problem: the timing belt idler pulley on the lower right side is disintegrating. It's missing large chunks! A fine quality part that lasted for 27,000 miles.

The mechanic wanted $400 to replace the pully. He said the pully costs $60 and the rest is labor. He said I really should also replace the belt, the tensioner and the other two idler pullies, and that would be an extra $200, for a total of $600.

I declined (too expensive). So I had the car towed home just now. I've got my repair manual and some hand tools, and I am going to try to replace the idler pully myself. yikes

Labor should be less than $200 for everything. You can usually get parts cheaper yourself from www.fordpartsonline.com If you don't think you can do it yourself, you can find a more reasonable mechanic and purchase the parts yourself. If you are just replacing the idler pulley and you have all the stuff to reset the tensioner, then it should be a fairly straight forward job, as long as you do everything just right.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
It is must be nice to be so over paid that you can throw away aftermarket parts.

Don't whine. I charge fair prices [never over *suggested list* and my labor rate is about $10.00 per hour less than most in my area] because I'm such a nice guy.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I do agree on one thing, the cams should not be their own camshaft holders, BUT again, a special tool is not needed,

What's wrong with using the right tool? Isn't that why *you* went to a professional when you had your gears/pulleys changed...because they had that *special* tool [the same tool that I use when doing the belt replacement, in the first place] that you didn't have?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
you can use a wrench on a certain part of the cams to hold them.

Not all year models...and why didn't you do that? You're the expert that says it's so simple to do, using makeshift tools...why did you bug a professional with your pulley job?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Though I didn't even have to do that because there is another way to hold them as well, but I don't suggest it for everyone to do.

Love to hear about it.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I guess you don't even know what kind of file I am talking about. A large file that is used to sharpen blades (not fingernails), a file that is in the same shape/size as the ford tool will perform the same job as the ford tool.

I'm dealing with cams, so I'll use the right tool, always, not some file that's designed for another task. And when I need a file, I'll use a file, not a rock or a Greek man's chin whiskers.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Anyways, I obviously know how to work on a zetec (yes A zetec, so I guess if I had to work on another, I couldn't do it, because I've only worked on A zetec yet it still runs fine ).

Could you make a living at doing it, expert?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I think you'd be a mechanic I would avoid, number 1 because you probably over charge for a SIMPLE timing belt replacement, because you think you have to buy hundreds of tools to do it.

Any decent mechanic does exactly what I do [buy tools for the cars that they're working on], except they probably charge more...and probably even sell parts to customers that aren't really needed, but we never do that at our shop. Fact is, every mechanic at our shop that has ever tried to over-sell a job, has been terminated.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Yet I can change it in my backyard. Any decent mechanic will know how to change a timing belt (correctly) on a zetec and will already have the tools to do it (even if they aren't all ford specific tools).

Can they make a living at doing in their back yard?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I know the performance shop that installed my cam gears didn't have all the Ford tools yet they managed to install my cam gears perfectly

By using...let me guess...an OTC tool, which is the same tool as Ford's tool?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
and in less time (less cost) than they had originally quoted. But I'm sure you could find something to argue about with the owner of the performance shop, an owner that builds and races various race cars. There will always be a "by the book" way and then there will be the "what works" way.

He uses what works...or does he use special tools that are required when working on and building engines?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I go by the "what works" way because it's cheaper, takes less time, and guess what?,,, it works.

You'd never get hired as a mechanic, I trust.

As a mechanic, your customers expect you to use professional tools and to have the proper training and experience. That's what they're paying for.

Using the right tools save time, they don't make the job harder to do. LOL.

If a customer asked you to scan their computer and to fix the problem, would you whip out a paper clip, w/ a big smile on your face, or would you show them your $10,000 MODIS and tell them that this is at least as good as what most professional mechanics are using, today.

If a customer had a misfire problem their late-model DIS, Direct-Fire, etc, you'd grab up some vacuum hoses and a test light, or maybe a screwdriver and some rubber gloves, or would you ask them to please pull up to your $18,000.00 Diagnostic Center, telling them that it's not the most expensive, but it's at least as good as what most professional shops are using, today?

And timing belts are simple? Tell that to the shade-tree b**b that doesn't do it right the first time, and ends up having their car towed to the shop for a $1,500.00 repair because they expected their engine to be a free-wheeling design, and it wasn't.

Originally posted by caltour:
I just got back from the mechanic's shop. He took the top timing belt cover and middle timng belt cover off the motor, and found the problem: the timing belt idler pulley on the lower right side is disintegrating. It's missing large chunks! A fine quality part that lasted for 27,000 miles.

The mechanic wanted $400 to replace the pully. He said the pully costs $60 and the rest is labor. He said I really should also replace the belt, the tensioner and the other two idler pullies, and that would be an extra $200, for a total of $600.

I declined (too expensive). So I had the car towed home just now. I've got my repair manual and some hand tools, and I am going to try to replace the idler pully myself. yikes

You did the right thing, I think. Way too high. I just did the same job last week, on a '96 Mystique, plus some...Timing Belt Kit [belt, guide pulleys and tensioner] and I replaced the engine cover/valve cover gasket...and new spark plugs, for $415.00...I went under suggested list and gave them a little break on labor]

Good luck...I just wish you could have found a better repair facility...one that would have estimated a more realistic price [about 4 hrs labor, tops...and a timing belt kit that has a suggested retail of around $220.00]...a kit is a lot better than buying everything piece by piece...saves money and even includes better instructions, usually.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by caltour:
I just got back from the mechanic's shop. He took the top timing belt cover and middle timng belt cover off the motor, and found the problem: the timing belt idler pulley on the lower right side is disintegrating. It's missing large chunks! A fine quality part that lasted for 27,000 miles.

The mechanic wanted $400 to replace the pully. He said the pully costs $60 and the rest is labor. He said I really should also replace the belt, the tensioner and the other two idler pullies, and that would be an extra $200, for a total of $600.

I declined (too expensive). So I had the car towed home just now. I've got my repair manual and some hand tools, and I am going to try to replace the idler pully myself. yikes

Labor should be less than $200 for everything. You can usually get parts cheaper yourself from www.fordpartsonline.com If you don't think you can do it yourself, you can find a more reasonable mechanic and purchase the parts yourself. If you are just replacing the idler pulley and you have all the stuff to reset the tensioner, then it should be a fairly straight forward job, as long as you do everything just right.

Caltour, you can also try an Auto parts store like Napa, O' Reilly, etc...and I would suggest buying a kit. No need to put the old belt back on the new idler...just be asking for trouble, sooner than later.

And if you find another mechanic, be sure to ask permission about using your own parts before you schedule an appointment. He may say no, but if he stays within suggested retail on his parts [not much over $200.00 for the complete timing belt kit], he's committing no fouls.

Meangreen, do you know if I can replace that lower idler pulley without having to reset the timing? My Haynes manual (I know, I know) seems to indicate that I can replace the pulley without removing the belt. It looks like I could just fasten the belt tightly with clamps (so it doesn't slip out of time) and then just replace the idler pully. What do you think?

Like you suggested, I am considering buying the entire timing belt kit. But the kit costs over five times the cost of the one idler pully that's broken ($39 from Signature Lincoln Mercury). The other pullies and the belt have no apparent wear or damage.

Originally posted by caltour:
Meangreen, do you know if I can replace that lower idler pulley without having to reset the timing? My Haynes manual (I know, I know) seems to indicate that I can replace the pulley without removing the belt. It looks like I could just fasten the belt tightly with clamps (so it doesn't slip out of time) and then just replace the idler pully. What do you think?

Like you suggested, I am considering buying the entire timing belt kit. But the kit costs over five times the cost of the one idler pully that's broken ($39 from Signature Lincoln Mercury). The other pullies and the belt have no apparent wear or damage.

It'd be a little bit tricky, but if I were doing it, and wanting to do it easy, I'd get it at TDC #1, with the valve cover off, with the cam alignment tool handy, incase I needed it...I'd lock the belts to the cam pulleys with a couple of plastic spring hand-clamps, as you stated, stuff a rag or something between the crank gear/pulley and the top of the oil pan/oil pump housing...that way your belt should be pretty secure. With everything in time, I'd loosen the tensioner bolt, but don't move it anymore than you have to, if any at all, then remove the lower guide/idler pulley, using the proper Torx bit/socket...you might be able to sneak the new one right back in, but you'll have to reset the tension. With the belt still secured with the clamps at the cam pulleys and at the crank, you might want to install the new spring and spring anchor bolt [dealer items...sounds like you're going to the dealer anyway]...now all you have to do is remove the clamps and set and torque the tensioner.

With a little luck you'll have no problems.

...or you could do as Haynes suggests and sneak the new one in...tension might be pretty close with the new replacement part...just make sure that it's at least as tight, afterwards, as before you started the job.

You could always get a second opinion on the belt tension, afterwards, if you're not sure.

Good luck.

Though obviously we disagree on some views, which I'm tired of arguing about, I agree with what you're telling caltour for the work he is gonna do. I would get the spring and post for the tensioner (not from your local ford dealer usually, even for cheap things like that, it's still cheaper to go through fordpartsonline or one of the CEG friendly dealers) as a safety measure. I would go ahead and do everything so you know it's done right and you don't have to do it again,, but I guess if you don't have the money then that's not an option.

Meangreen I could make money doing repairs, but I don't have the proper tools. When I did my timing belt I used my dad's tool, none of which were ford tools, just breaker bars, sockets, and torque wrenches. But I don't really enjoy working on cars that much, but I do love cars, especially engines and suspensions, so I'm going into mechanical engineering.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Though obviously we disagree on some views, which I'm tired of arguing about,

It's only because my advice is professional, and you're trying to discount it and pretend that somehow it is wrong, because you're not speaking from a professional stand-point.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I agree with what you're telling caltour for the work he is gonna do. I would get the spring and post for the tensioner (not from your local ford dealer usually, even for cheap things like that,

I said local dealer, because it appeared that Caltour was going to his local Mercury/Ford dealer to get his guide pulley anyway.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
it's still cheaper to go through fordpartsonline or one of the CEG friendly dealers) as a safety measure. I would go ahead and do everything so you know it's done right and you don't have to do it again,, but I guess if you don't have the money then that's not an option.

So would I, but since Caltour claims that everything else looks undamaged, and since it's not an interference engine, won't really hurt to do just what's needed, right now.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Meangreen I could make money doing repairs, but I don't have the proper tools. When I did my timing belt I used my dad's tool, none of which were ford tools, just breaker bars, sockets, and torque wrenches. But I don't really enjoy working on cars that much, but I do love cars, especially engines and suspensions, so I'm going into mechanical engineering.

Good luck...and not saying that you couldn't learn, if that's what you want to do, but unless you specialize in just a few areas, a mechanic or two can get together and spend $100,000 real fast, for just hand tools and a few black boxes, not even counting shop equipment, specialized testers [quality], machines to service vehicles, repair A/C, etc...then you can add another $150,000 - $250,000, easily, if you're not too big of an operation.

Just saying that if working on modern vehicles is your profession, a large tackle box full of basic tools won't get you very far...and for mechanics that do timing belt replacements, consistently, will most likely invest in the proper tools to do the best job that they can, in the most efficient manner possible.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Though obviously we disagree on some views, which I'm tired of arguing about,

It's only because my advice is professional, and you're trying to discount it and pretend that somehow it is wrong, because you're not speaking from a professional stand-point.

No it's not. It's because I'm sick and barely can type right now. It is right to a degree, that some correct tools are needed to do certain things on a car. But not again, a piece of metal is a piece of metal when it comes to the cam holding tool, ask anybody on here and they'll tell you if it's long enough/slim enough/strong enough, then it'll work. Though I'm looking at it more from a diy stand point, but I still wouldn't have a problem with a mechanic using a $2 file instead of a $30 piece of metal from ford to keep the cams in the correct position. I don't see any other professionals in this thread, so why are you even talking about what a professional should do? A professional knows what to have/do so you don't have to put it on here. I'd rather help somebody do it themselves. You're the kinda mechanic (like many, not all) that has a know-it-all attitude that would cause me, as a customer, to walk right out of your shop and go else where.

And I don't think the same of all "professionals", I've been to two professional shops, and they couldn't make my CEL go away, but I spent more time with it and got it to go away, and this time stay away. All with my $85 worth of computer scanning software, and my cheap tools/autozone loaner tools.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I agree with what you're telling caltour for the work he is gonna do. I would get the spring and post for the tensioner (not from your local ford dealer usually, even for cheap things like that,

I said local dealer, because it appeared that Caltour was going to his local Mercury/Ford dealer to get his guide pulley anyway.

Actually, it appears he was planning to get the pulley from a dealer in another state, but whatever.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
it's still cheaper to go through fordpartsonline or one of the CEG friendly dealers) as a safety measure. I would go ahead and do everything so you know it's done right and you don't have to do it again,, but I guess if you don't have the money then that's not an option.

So would I, but since Caltour claims that everything else looks undamaged, and since it's not an interference engine, won't really hurt to do just what's needed, right now.

Agreed, except it's not fun to go back and do it all again.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Meangreen I could make money doing repairs, but I don't have the proper tools. When I did my timing belt I used my dad's tool, none of which were ford tools, just breaker bars, sockets, and torque wrenches. But I don't really enjoy working on cars that much, but I do love cars, especially engines and suspensions, so I'm going into mechanical engineering.

Good luck...and not saying that you couldn't learn, if that's what you want to do, but unless you specialize in just a few areas, a mechanic or two can get together and spend $100,000 real fast, for just hand tools and a few black boxes, not even counting shop equipment, specialized testers [quality], machines to service vehicles, repair A/C, etc...then you can add another $150,000 - $250,000, easily, if you're not too big of an operation.

Just saying that if working on modern vehicles is your profession, a large tackle box full of basic tools won't get you very far...and for mechanics that do timing belt replacements, consistently, will most likely invest in the proper tools to do the best job that they can, in the most efficient manner possible.

I guess you didn't read/don't know what I said. I'm going into mechanical engineering. It's where I design what you work on.

I have to disagree with you on the price of tools. The average shop owner will spend $100k+, even $200k+ on tools,etc. (this is doing more than just timing belts though,, there are actually plenty of small shops that just do small things like timing belts and spend comparably very little on tools), but the average mechanic doesn't spend that much.

My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
No it's not. It's because I'm sick and barely can type right now. It is right to a degree, that some correct tools are needed to do certain things on a car. But not again, a piece of metal is a piece of metal when it comes to the cam holding tool,

It's not a holding tool, it's an alignment tool.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
ask anybody on here and they'll tell you if it's long enough/slim enough/strong enough, then it'll work. Though I'm looking at it more from a diy stand point, but I still wouldn't have a problem with a mechanic using a $2 file instead of a $30 piece of metal from ford to keep the cams in the correct position.

I don't believe that. If a mechanic whipped out a backbone of a rainbow trout and said..."Hey, it works!"...you'd probably think...Hell, why am I paying this guy to do this, I could do that myself.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I don't see any other professionals in this thread, so why are you even talking about what a professional should do?

Didn't Caltour try going to the professionls? You've been to the pros, others have been to the pros...so my advice should come in handy for those that go to the pros, and even the ones that don't.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
A professional knows what to have/do so you don't have to put it on here. I'd rather help somebody do it themselves.

You think you know more than I do? How is knowing less better?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You're the kinda mechanic (like many, not all) that has a know-it-all attitude that would cause me, as a customer, to walk right out of your shop and go else where.

SO...if you were to ask me about your car, and I were to say..."gee, d'uh...I don't know. D'oh!" while digging at my ear with an inkpen, you'd get real impressed and hand me your keys?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
And I don't think the same of all "professionals", I've been to two professional shops, and they couldn't make my CEL go away, but I spent more time with it and got it to go away, and this time stay away. All with my $85 worth of computer scanning software, and my cheap tools/autozone loaner tools.

Must have been fairly simple...and I hope that you enjoyed paying those professionals your money. They seemed not to be "know-it-alls"...just how you like it.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Actually, it appears he was planning to get the pulley from a dealer in another state, but whatever.

Keyword: Dealer

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I guess you didn't read/don't know what I said. I'm going into mechanical engineering. It's where I design what you work on.

And you said that you think you coud make a living at it, but you don't like working on cars. So I guess we're back to my original question about you making a living at working on cars, since you're giving out advice about working on cars, not designing them.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I have to disagree with you on the price of tools. The average shop owner will spend $100k+, even $200k+ on tools,etc. (this is doing more than just timing belts though,, there are actually plenty of small shops that just do small things like timing belts and spend comparably very little on tools),

That's why I made mention of those that limit themselves to just certain jobs.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
but the average mechanic doesn't spend that much.

I've seen mechanics spend $7,500+ just for a bottom tool box. And most mechanics I know from surrounding shops are expected to furnish all of their tools, while the *shop* takes care of the equipment...and that means that almost everyone that I see are spending $5 - $6k on OTC scanners, around $10k or so for Snap-On, etc...and that's just to get them started, has nothing to do with their other testers, their hand tools, etc...and if they don't have it, they buy it the next week when the toolman pulls up, because the others don't pass their tools around to the ones that don't like spending their own money for their own tools.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
No it's not. It's because I'm sick and barely can type right now. It is right to a degree, that some correct tools are needed to do certain things on a car. But not again, a piece of metal is a piece of metal when it comes to the cam holding tool,

It's not a holding tool, it's an alignment tool.

I know that, sorry I didn't use the correct wording.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
ask anybody on here and they'll tell you if it's long enough/slim enough/strong enough, then it'll work. Though I'm looking at it more from a diy stand point, but I still wouldn't have a problem with a mechanic using a $2 file instead of a $30 piece of metal from ford to keep the cams in the correct position.

I don't believe that. If a mechanic whipped out a backbone of a rainbow trout and said..."Hey, it works!"...you'd probably think...Hell, why am I paying this guy to do this, I could do that myself.

You/I/Anybody can do it themselves.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I don't see any other professionals in this thread, so why are you even talking about what a professional should do?

Didn't Caltour try going to the professionls? You've been to the pros, others have been to the pros...so my advice should come in handy for those that go to the pros, and even the ones that don't.

It doesn't come in handy if you suggest by $10k worth of tools to work on a car worth $2k-$5k.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
A professional knows what to have/do so you don't have to put it on here. I'd rather help somebody do it themselves.

You think you know more than I do? How is knowing less better?

Didn't say that, I said I'd rather help someone do it themselves, rather than tell them the "by the book" way which they can easily find themselves (either in a book or on dvd/cd).

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You're the kinda mechanic (like many, not all) that has a know-it-all attitude that would cause me, as a customer, to walk right out of your shop and go else where.

SO...if you were to ask me about your car, and I were to say..."gee, d'uh...I don't know. D'oh!" while digging at my ear with an inkpen, you'd get real impressed and hand me your keys?

That would be a know-nothing attitude. But I've talked to mechanics that act like they are the ONLY person to ever work on a car and that the owner doesn't know anything about automobiles. You definitely seem to be one of those.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
And I don't think the same of all "professionals", I've been to two professional shops, and they couldn't make my CEL go away, but I spent more time with it and got it to go away, and this time stay away. All with my $85 worth of computer scanning software, and my cheap tools/autozone loaner tools.

Must have been fairly simple...and I hope that you enjoyed paying those professionals your money. They seemed not to be "know-it-alls"...just how you like it.

Actually I didn't pay them a thing.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Actually, it appears he was planning to get the pulley from a dealer in another state, but whatever.

Keyword: Dealer

Keyword number 2 and 3: another state

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I guess you didn't read/don't know what I said. I'm going into mechanical engineering. It's where I design what you work on.

And you said that you think you coud make a living at it, but you don't like working on cars. So I guess we're back to my original question about you making a living at working on cars, since you're giving out advice about working on cars, not designing them.

Hmm, I work on my car out of necessity, and I give advice based on my experience and what obviously works. Even if you don't like it, other people appreciate it, and you can shove your head into your thousand dollar dvd to figure stuff out if you don't like how me and others on here do it ourselves.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I have to disagree with you on the price of tools. The average shop owner will spend $100k+, even $200k+ on tools,etc. (this is doing more than just timing belts though,, there are actually plenty of small shops that just do small things like timing belts and spend comparably very little on tools),

That's why I made mention of those that limit themselves to just certain jobs.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
but the average mechanic doesn't spend that much.

I've seen mechanics spend $7,500+ just for a bottom tool box. And most mechanics I know from surrounding shops are expected to furnish all of their tools, while the *shop* takes care of the equipment...and that means that almost everyone that I see are spending $5 - $6k on OTC scanners, around $10k or so for Snap-On, etc...and that's just to get them started, has nothing to do with their other testers, their hand tools, etc...and if they don't have it, they buy it the next week when the toolman pulls up, because the others don't pass their tools around to the ones that don't like spending their own money for their own tools.

Remember, I said excluding all the computer stuff,etc. Yes I've seen people spend $7k+ on a tool box as well, I've seen people waste money on many things.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

Yeah I guess $3k is absolutely nothing to you. But my Dad can't afford to throw aftermarket parts away as you can. Heck, he can't even afford aftermarket parts right now for his vehicles. He works bumper to bumper on diesel trucks though with that $3k or $4k worth of tools. The shop he works at and shops he has worked at have always provided the battery testers,short tracers, a/c equipment, computer stuff,etc. They do that because around here, mechanics aren't paid a whole lot and they certainly don't start out with much money, so they can afford to buy all that stuff. It must be nice to live somewhere where you can charge so much that you can buy tens of thousands dollars worth of tools and throw away aftermarket parts. I feel sorry for your customers that have to pay for your $7k tool box.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

It's not a holding tool, it's an alignment tool.

(etc etc)

Look, you're going on at great length about the need for the proper tools... FOR A DIFFERENT JOB than the one under discussion.

The purpose of the alignment tool -- which, by the way, is hard to actually GET from Ford, which is why some books like Haynes suggest you make your own, like mine -- is for adjusting the fine alignment of the cam sprockets on the shafts. Which is not part of a timing belt change! All that's needed for a belt change is to keep the shafts right side up to within one tooth of the correct position, and that task can be accomplished with any old thing -- a few sheets of cardboard, for instance.

The thing to hold the crankshaft is also hardly necessary. If you simply set it in position, it stays in place well enough to put a belt on without slipping a tooth. If you do slip a tooth, the fact can be easily checked for and corrected afterwards. All of these special procedures are needed only if the cam sprockets are loosened on their shafts. (Which, if you do that, does want a tool to grab the sprockets by their rims or spokes... a tool that again is easier to make by hand than to get from Ford.)

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
No it's not. It's because I'm sick and barely can type right now. It is right to a degree, that some correct tools are needed to do certain things on a car. But not again, a piece of metal is a piece of metal when it comes to the cam holding tool,

It's not a holding tool, it's an alignment tool.

I know that, sorry I didn't use the correct wording.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
ask anybody on here and they'll tell you if it's long enough/slim enough/strong enough, then it'll work. Though I'm looking at it more from a diy stand point, but I still wouldn't have a problem with a mechanic using a $2 file instead of a $30 piece of metal from ford to keep the cams in the correct position.

I don't believe that. If a mechanic whipped out a backbone of a rainbow trout and said..."Hey, it works!"...you'd probably think...Hell, why am I paying this guy to do this, I could do that myself.

You/I/Anybody can do it themselves.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I don't see any other professionals in this thread, so why are you even talking about what a professional should do?

Didn't Caltour try going to the professionls? You've been to the pros, others have been to the pros...so my advice should come in handy for those that go to the pros, and even the ones that don't.

It doesn't come in handy if you suggest by $10k worth of tools to work on a car worth $2k-$5k.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
A professional knows what to have/do so you don't have to put it on here. I'd rather help somebody do it themselves.

You think you know more than I do? How is knowing less better?

Didn't say that, I said I'd rather help someone do it themselves, rather than tell them the "by the book" way which they can easily find themselves (either in a book or on dvd/cd).

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You're the kinda mechanic (like many, not all) that has a know-it-all attitude that would cause me, as a customer, to walk right out of your shop and go else where.

SO...if you were to ask me about your car, and I were to say..."gee, d'uh...I don't know. D'oh!" while digging at my ear with an inkpen, you'd get real impressed and hand me your keys?

That would be a know-nothing attitude. But I've talked to mechanics that act like they are the ONLY person to ever work on a car and that the owner doesn't know anything about automobiles. You definitely seem to be one of those.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
And I don't think the same of all "professionals", I've been to two professional shops, and they couldn't make my CEL go away, but I spent more time with it and got it to go away, and this time stay away. All with my $85 worth of computer scanning software, and my cheap tools/autozone loaner tools.

Must have been fairly simple...and I hope that you enjoyed paying those professionals your money. They seemed not to be "know-it-alls"...just how you like it.

Actually I didn't pay them a thing.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Actually, it appears he was planning to get the pulley from a dealer in another state, but whatever.

Keyword: Dealer

Keyword number 2 and 3: another state

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I guess you didn't read/don't know what I said. I'm going into mechanical engineering. It's where I design what you work on.

And you said that you think you coud make a living at it, but you don't like working on cars. So I guess we're back to my original question about you making a living at working on cars, since you're giving out advice about working on cars, not designing them.

Hmm, I work on my car out of necessity, and I give advice based on my experience and what obviously works. Even if you don't like it, other people appreciate it, and you can shove your head into your thousand dollar dvd to figure stuff out if you don't like how me and others on here do it ourselves.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I have to disagree with you on the price of tools. The average shop owner will spend $100k+, even $200k+ on tools,etc. (this is doing more than just timing belts though,, there are actually plenty of small shops that just do small things like timing belts and spend comparably very little on tools),

That's why I made mention of those that limit themselves to just certain jobs.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
but the average mechanic doesn't spend that much.

I've seen mechanics spend $7,500+ just for a bottom tool box. And most mechanics I know from surrounding shops are expected to furnish all of their tools, while the *shop* takes care of the equipment...and that means that almost everyone that I see are spending $5 - $6k on OTC scanners, around $10k or so for Snap-On, etc...and that's just to get them started, has nothing to do with their other testers, their hand tools, etc...and if they don't have it, they buy it the next week when the toolman pulls up, because the others don't pass their tools around to the ones that don't like spending their own money for their own tools.

Remember, I said excluding all the computer stuff,etc. Yes I've seen people spend $7k+ on a tool box as well, I've seen people waste money on many things.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

Yeah I guess $3k is absolutely nothing to you. But my Dad can't afford to throw aftermarket parts away as you can. Heck, he can't even afford aftermarket parts right now for his vehicles. He works bumper to bumper on diesel trucks though with that $3k or $4k worth of tools. The shop he works at and shops he has worked at have always provided the battery testers,short tracers, a/c equipment, computer stuff,etc. They do that because around here, mechanics aren't paid a whole lot and they certainly don't start out with much money, so they can afford to buy all that stuff. It must be nice to live somewhere where you can charge so much that you can buy tens of thousands dollars worth of tools and throw away aftermarket parts. I feel sorry for your customers that have to pay for your $7k tool box.

$3K is nothing to any mechanic that I know of, period.

And if your dad works bumper-to-bumper, I'd sure like to see what tools he has. Around here, 1" impacts are well over $1K...1 wrench can cost $100.00 or more, sockets $50.00 etc...but I'm talking quality...not junk.

And I won't say it again, I don't overcharge...my labor is 10 dollars per hour less than everbody else in the area, I don't oversell jobs and I never go over suggested retail, so just get off of that and face the facts that tools cost money...the more work that you do, the more tools are needed...more money is needed.

And $7K for a real tool box is cheap...I've seen mechanics spend closer to $20K

You just seem sour...and p*ssed because a pro knows more and owns more tools than you. Big shocker.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

It's not a holding tool, it's an alignment tool.

(etc etc)

Look, you're going on at great length about the need for the proper tools... FOR A DIFFERENT JOB than the one under discussion.

No I'm not.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
The purpose of the alignment tool -- which, by the way, is hard to actually GET from Ford, which is why some books like Haynes suggest you make your own, like mine --

It's OTC...easy to find.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
is for adjusting the fine alignment of the cam sprockets on the shafts. Which is not part of a timing belt change!

The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
All that's needed for a belt change is to keep the shafts right side up to within one tooth of the correct position, and that task can be accomplished with any old thing -- a few sheets of cardboard, for instance.

LMAO...tell that to the next zetec owner that has an engine that won't idle and keeps setting codes, because the mechanic did such a sloppy job with *cardboard*...and allowing the cams to be a tooth off.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
The thing to hold the crankshaft is also hardly necessary. If you simply set it in position, it stays in place well enough to put a belt on without slipping a tooth. If you do slip a tooth, the fact can be easily checked for and corrected afterwards. All of these special procedures are needed only if the cam sprockets are loosened on their shafts. (Which, if you do that, does want a tool to grab the sprockets by their rims or spokes... a tool that again is easier to make by hand than to get from Ford.)

The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...and the peg tool has nothing to do with loosening the cam sprockets, unless you think the belt will double as a cam holding tool...and if you don't want to go to Ford to buy the tool, then go to OTC...they're the same.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

$3K is nothing to any mechanic that I know of, period.

And if your dad works bumper-to-bumper, I'd sure like to see what tools he has. Around here, 1" impacts are well over $1K...1 wrench can cost $100.00 or more, sockets $50.00 etc...but I'm talking quality...not junk.

And I won't say it again, I don't overcharge...my labor is 10 dollars per hour less than everbody else in the area, I don't oversell jobs and I never go over suggested retail, so just get off of that and face the facts that tools cost money...the more work that you do, the more tools are needed...more money is needed.

And $7K for a real tool box is cheap...I've seen mechanics spend closer to $20K

You just seem sour...and p*ssed because a pro knows more and owns more tools than you. Big shocker.

He doesn't have to buy his own impact wrenches. He has a couple torque wrenches that cost about $200 each, and he does have expensive wrenches, sockets, etc. but maybe not as expensive as the ones you get, but they seem to last him long enough and do the job right.

I don't care if you won't say it again, in fact that would be good. You obviously charge too much, and if it's less than others in the area, then they really charge too much. Suggested retail is often way too much, and I've never paid it. I realize there is a cost for the right tools,etc... but there is a limit.

Again, yes I've seen people waste money as well. I have never met a mechanic (in south georgia, like I said, you HAVE to be overcharging) that has spent/or been able to spend $20k on a tool box. Mechanics around here simply don't get paid well enough to do that. There are some that spend $3k-$4k on a tool box, but they don't have families yet to care for, and they also have multiple credit cards. My dad has only bought used tool boxs, because even though he is the highest paid mechanic in his shop, he can't afford even a $2k tool box, atleast not if he expects to pay bills, support a family,etc.

I'm not sour or pissed, though it certainly seems you are. I'm not gonna doubt that you know more than me (when it comes to fixing cars anyways) or that you own more tools than me (I know grandmas that own more tools than me). I just disagree with you when it comes to the fact of you saying you "need" certain tools to work on a zetec, when I and countless others have proved otherwise. I also, again, don't like your know-it-all attitude, because even though you may know a lot (about working on cars, or atleast you know what the books tell you), you don't know it all. Neither do I or your customers. But if I came to you with my car, you seem like the kinda mechanic that would act like I know nothing, which is obviously untrue, and I wouldn't have you work on my car if you won't discuss intelligently with me what's wrong with it.

The only reason I don't really enjoy working on cars is because I find it boring after doing it for more than a few minutes (except when diagnosing a problem using a scanner and recording/comparing information). I find working on cars to be very easy to do, and not much of a challenge. I think it anybody could work on a car. I think even someone like my mom, who acts like she could never work on a car, actually could, if she wanted to. That's why I wanna design cars, not just work on them, hopefully (and I'm sure it will be) it'll be more of a challenge.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

$3K is nothing to any mechanic that I know of, period.

And if your dad works bumper-to-bumper, I'd sure like to see what tools he has. Around here, 1" impacts are well over $1K...1 wrench can cost $100.00 or more, sockets $50.00 etc...but I'm talking quality...not junk.

And I won't say it again, I don't overcharge...my labor is 10 dollars per hour less than everbody else in the area, I don't oversell jobs and I never go over suggested retail, so just get off of that and face the facts that tools cost money...the more work that you do, the more tools are needed...more money is needed.

And $7K for a real tool box is cheap...I've seen mechanics spend closer to $20K

You just seem sour...and p*ssed because a pro knows more and owns more tools than you. Big shocker.

Quote:

He doesn't have to buy his own impact wrenches. He has a couple torque wrenches that cost about $200 each, and he does have expensive wrenches, sockets, etc. but maybe not as expensive as the ones you get, but they seem to last him long enough and do the job right.

Don't defend him. 2 - 3k as an investment for tools is nothing, and I think you know it.

Quote:

I don't care if you won't say it again, in fact that would be good. You obviously charge too much,

Libelous lie duly noted

On this thread alone, I've noticed mechanics trying to charge about 2 hundred dollars more than I just did, for the same job, only I did more.

Quote:

and if it's less than others in the area, then they really charge too much. Suggested retail is often way too much, and I've never paid it. I realize there is a cost for the right tools,etc...

"right tools,etc..."

See, you know that it's better to do it right, with the right tools...probably why you'd go to an actual dentist, instead of letting some DIYr use a pair of pliers on your teeth, and a rubber mallet on your head.

Quote:

but there is a limit.

Again, yes I've seen people waste money as well. I have never met a mechanic (in south georgia, like I said, you HAVE to be overcharging)

I undercharge [fact].

Quote:

that has spent/or been able to spend $20k on a tool box. Mechanics around here simply don't get paid well enough to do that. There are some that spend $3k-$4k on a tool box, but they don't have families yet to care for, and they also have multiple credit cards. My dad has only bought used tool boxs, because even though he is the highest paid mechanic in his shop, he can't afford even a $2k tool box, atleast not if he expects to pay bills, support a family,etc.

Too much information.

Quote:

I'm not sour or pissed, though it certainly seems you are. I'm not gonna doubt that you know more than me (when it comes to fixing cars anyways) or that you own more tools than me (I know grandmas that own more tools than me). I just disagree with you when it comes to the fact of you saying you "need" certain tools to work on a zetec, when I and countless others have proved otherwise.

Are they the ones that "remove" their upper covers during the winter, because the belt keeps hitting it? And if you weren't so blinded by your rage and the economy in your area you'd realize that when I made mention of the required tools, it was for the person that was going to a professional...that's why I informed them that if they don't have the right tools, look confused, or get offended for being asked, the person might try finding another shop.

Quote:

I also, again, don't like your know-it-all attitude, because even though you may know a lot (about working on cars, or atleast you know what the books tell you), you don't know it all. Neither do I or your customers. But if I came to you with my car, you seem like the kinda mechanic that would act like I know nothing,

If you came to my shop and I informed you that you're in luck because I have the right tools, and I never cut corners when it comes to procedure, like some lazy uncaring mechanic might, and you got in my face and tried to tell me that doing the job right is the wrong way to do it, I would hand your keys back to you and tell you to scoot.

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which is obviously untrue, and I wouldn't have you work on my car if you won't discuss intelligently with me what's wrong with it.

Just so you can tell me how you would do it in your backyard? Well, guess what...that's what my shop is for, for those that don't believe in backyards and trust that doing it right with the right tools is right, not wrong. A lady had her Honda towed to us about three weeks ago. She was looking for a mechanic in the area to replace her timing belt and see what her coolant leak was...her "know-it-all" backyard friend said he could do the job and charge her a lot less than the pros...he ruined her engine for her and made her miss several days of work. He turned that job into nearly a $2,000.00 job, when it would have been much closer to $500.00 [C/Belt, B/S belt, W/P and B/S seal]...he wasn't out a dime though, just a little bit of his valuable time.

Quote:

The only reason I don't really enjoy working on cars is because I find it boring after doing it for more than a few minutes (except when diagnosing a problem using a scanner and recording/comparing information). I find working on cars to be very easy to do, and not much of a challenge.

Tell that to the next pro that you come across, expert.

Quote:

I think it anybody could work on a car. I think even someone like my mom, who acts like she could never work on a car, actually could, if she wanted to. That's why I wanna design cars, not just work on them, hopefully (and I'm sure it will be) it'll be more of a challenge.

Could she do a timing chain and a water pump on a quad engine, or figure out and repair a reoccuring no-start problem on a BMW, replace a heater core on a F-body, while the customer waits because they're already late for an appointment? She's up to the challenge, expert?

Dream on.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
It doesn't come in handy if you suggest by $10k worth of tools to work on a car worth $2k-$5k.

I never said that a pro or a DIY would have to spend $10k on tools to do a timing belt replacement...and I never tried to bring the value of their car into this.

Quote:

Didn't say that, I said I'd rather help someone do it themselves, rather than tell them the "by the book" way which they can easily find themselves (either in a book or on dvd/cd).

You'd have them cut corners, instead of doing it right while they had it apart?

Quote:

That would be a know-nothing attitude. But I've talked to mechanics that act like they are the ONLY person to ever work on a car and that the owner doesn't know anything about automobiles. You definitely seem to be one of those.

You think your backyard graduation can keep up with my experience, expert?

Quote:

Keyword number 2 and 3: another state

1st Keyword: Dealer...so if his source for the one part is the dealer, why would you have him find another source for the tensioner spring and bolt that they already have, right there?

Quote:

Hmm, I work on my car out of necessity, and I give advice based on my experience and what obviously works. Even if you don't like it, other people appreciate it, and you can shove your head into your thousand dollar dvd to figure stuff out if you don't like how me and others on here do it ourselves.

You can keep your files and cardboard, and you can just imagine what you would do with a professional shop that is packed full with real nice equipment and boxes that are stuffed with every tool you'd ever need...while trying to tell me that doing it right, following procedure, is somehow the wrong way to do it.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

It's OTC...easy to find.

Wrong. I live in a major urban area and was told it would take at least 30 days and $80.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?

It's handy for timing belt changes, but not necessary. It is necessary for cam timing adjustment.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

LMAO...tell that to the next zetec owner that has an engine that won't idle and keeps setting codes, because the mechanic did such a sloppy job with *cardboard*...and allowing the cams to be a tooth off.

Look, getting the belt off by a whole tooth -- nine degrees -- takes such a degree of amateurishness and sloppiness that there is no excuse for it even if you are using no alignment tool at all. Even if it happens, it's so easy to check for that the risk is really not there for anyone who knows what they're doing and is at all careful. I could do it right with no tool and a blindfold on. It just isn't difficult.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...

Yes, you do, but not as a normal part of a timing belt change! When you do need to, then the alignment tool is required.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
and the peg tool has nothing to do with loosening the cam sprockets,

Who said it did? I mentioned that the peg was not needed to put on a timing belt, and then I mentioned in parentheses the other tool for holding cam sprockets. I gave you no reason to run the two together.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

It's OTC...easy to find.

Wrong. I live in a major urban area and was told it would take at least 30 days and $80.

Wrong. I can probably repeat what I did before...order it online and get it in 2 days...or at worst, order it off of one of the weekly tool men, and have it in the next week, not a month.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
It's handy for timing belt changes, but not necessary. It is necessary for cam timing adjustment.

Are you talking about the tool [flat bar] that locks the cams? Fool, that alignment tool [flat bar] is an absolute must in order to set the cams in the "Valve Overlap" position...the settings have to be accurate.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

LMAO...tell that to the next zetec owner that has an engine that won't idle and keeps setting codes, because the mechanic did such a sloppy job with *cardboard*...and allowing the cams to be a tooth off.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Look, getting the belt off by a whole tooth -- nine degrees -- takes such a degree of amateurishness and sloppiness that there is no excuse for it even if you are using no alignment tool at all.

Who said it was okay? You? The same person that said cardboard would work as an alignment tool.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Even if it happens, it's so easy to check for that the risk is really not there for anyone who knows what they're doing and is at all careful. I could do it right with no tool and a blindfold on. It just isn't difficult.

Would you permit the use of cardboard?

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Yes, you do, but not as a normal part of a timing belt change! When you do need to, then the alignment tool is required.

What are you going on about? The alignment tool will always be needed. What's wrong? You're unable to even use the proper terms for the tools?

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
and the peg tool has nothing to do with loosening the cam sprockets,

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Who said it did? I mentioned that the peg was not needed to put on a timing belt, and then I mentioned in parentheses the other tool for holding cam sprockets. I gave you no reason to run the two together.

I think that someone said that the peg is only needed when the cams need to be moved...so...why...the belt is meant to work as the cam holding tool, instead of an actual tool, allowing the crank to stay locked while the belt gets destroyed?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

No offense MeanGreen, but the amount of money spent on tools means nothing to me. Its how you are able to fix whatever you are working on that matters. My Dad was also the head diesel mechanic before he retired. He has tools I never even knew existed. Estimated value is well over 20K mostly since he has been doing it for over 35 years, but a lot of his tools are MADE.

If he couldnt afford or find that tool he needed, or he was only going to use it 2 times a year, he made his own, usually for a single job, since he also designed and built one-off hydraulic systems for dump trucks, trash trucks, etc. He is also a damn fine welder and built packer bodies and all the related hydraulic and electrical systems FROM SCRATCH. He has tools that are as old as I am and are still in excellent condition. But he never paid $200 for sockets. he also taught me how to trace shorts without a $400 tracer

He also built and tuned gas and diesel engines using only his ear, to make sure it was right, and was swapping V8s into mini trucks and retrofitting fuel injection onto carbed engines before it was "cool". He didnt need fancy computers or expensive tools. And all his experience and knowledge is being handed down to me, a little at a time. Wanna talk about experience? I got all I need just a few steps away.

Need a set of master keys for a Peterbilt or Kenworth?? I got em. Need special tools for any domestic gas engine up to about 1990, including Flatheads? I got em too. Because all of his tools were given to me when he retired. You didnt see me bragging about it when I got all these seriously cool tools. I had to build another shed just to hold all of it

I respect the fact that you are well equiped for your job, but throwing around $$ figures is kind of sad. I have learned that even of you dont have a special tool to get the job done, its no problem. Either make your own or make do with what you have. I also understand that you have a lot of experience, but so does Kremit and others on here, and if I can save a few bucks and still do the job right following what they say, guess what, I just saved a few bucks

OTOH, you want to buy whatever special tool is needed for a certain job, and I can respect that, more power to you. But dont talk about having so many expensive tools, cause I can hang with that, and probably show you stuff you never knew existed.

My Dad (and probably Kremits too, probably about the same age) come from the old-school way of thinking. If you dont have the tool, you still gotta fix the problem. No need to go out and spend $$ if you dont have to.

Can we all just get along now?

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

well said, my dad is right there with yours CRZYDRVR.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Quote:

I think it anybody could work on a car. I think even someone like my mom, who acts like she could never work on a car, actually could, if she wanted to. That's why I wanna design cars, not just work on them, hopefully (and I'm sure it will be) it'll be more of a challenge.

Could she do a timing chain and a water pump on a quad engine, or figure out and repair a reoccuring no-start problem on a BMW, replace a heater core on a F-body, while the customer waits because they're already late for an appointment? She's up to the challenge, expert?

Dream on.

Not overnight of course. You didn't crawl outta your momma's womb able to do it either. I said if she wanted to she could. Meaning she could do the same thing as you, read a book/look at a dvd/cd and figure it out. If it was worth it to her, and if she wouldn't mind getting dirty, then yeah, I'd imagine she'd be up to the challenge.

I won't even reply to your other replies, because you just try to change the subject and not even comprehend what I say or make a very good response.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Quote:

Didn't say that, I said I'd rather help someone do it themselves, rather than tell them the "by the book" way which they can easily find themselves (either in a book or on dvd/cd).

You'd have them cut corners, instead of doing it right while they had it apart?

No, I'd have them do it right, but without buying tools they don't absolutely need, or have them do anything they don't have to do.

Quote:

That would be a know-nothing attitude. But I've talked to mechanics that act like they are the ONLY person to ever work on a car and that the owner doesn't know anything about automobiles. You definitely seem to be one of those.

You think your backyard graduation can keep up with my experience, expert?

As far as the any job I've done so far on the zetec, yes.

Quote:

Keyword number 2 and 3: another state

1st Keyword: Dealer...so if his source for the one part is the dealer, why would you have him find another source for the tensioner spring and bolt that they already have, right there?

Put the keywords together, DEALER from ANOTHER STATE. Same source buddy.

Quote:

Hmm, I work on my car out of necessity, and I give advice based on my experience and what obviously works. Even if you don't like it, other people appreciate it, and you can shove your head into your thousand dollar dvd to figure stuff out if you don't like how me and others on here do it ourselves.

You can keep your files and cardboard, and you can just imagine what you would do with a professional shop that is packed full with real nice equipment and boxes that are stuffed with every tool you'd ever need...while trying to tell me that doing it right, following procedure, is somehow the wrong way to do it.

I'm not saying it's wrong to use the "correct tools" and the "correct" procedure, but no need to do all that if you don't have the "correct" tools already and if you want to save time. There are some cases where you can save money and/or time by substituting tools, changing procedure,etc. that will still result in a perfect job. Like I said, ask countless zetec owners on here (the ones that don't have flapping timing belts, the ones that do have flapping belts have either never changed their timing belt or have gone to so called "professionals" or in a few cases, just don't know what they were doing and screwed their stuff up).

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

My Dad (and probably Kremits too, probably about the same age) come from the old-school way of thinking. If you dont have the tool, you still gotta fix the problem. No need to go out and spend $$ if you dont have to.

Can we all just get along now?

Yeah, definitely same kinda dads.

I'm all for getting along. I think meangreen is real worked up about this and thinks I'm really worked up about it too. I'm not though, I just like to discuss/argue stuff.

Meangreen, it's OK to not know everything and to be wrong sometimes. Every one is wrong every know and then. It's also OK to do things differently in different situations. Not everybody does everything the same way. Everybody can't do everything the same way. It must be nice to be able to afford thousands of dollars of tools, and to throw away aftermarket exhausts,etc. but most of us can't do that,,, so we make do with what works. And when I say make do with what works, we do it because it WORKS. And if it works, even if it's not by the book, then it's OK by us.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I just like to discuss/argue stuff.

So do I, and thats cool. After our little turbo vs supercharger debate months back, I would'nt have guessed

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I just like to discuss/argue stuff.

So do I, and thats cool. After our little turbo vs supercharger debate months back, I would'nt have guessed

Yeah you're right, turbos smell better.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Wrong. I can probably repeat what I did before...order it online and get it in 2 days...or at worst, order it off of one of the weekly tool men, and have it in the next week, not a month.

Guess the Ford dealerships don't know to order it online.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?

Pretty hard to tell, with you in the conversation. I'm trying to be as clear as possible about the distinction of exactly which jobs are being talked about for each point, and you keep coming back with confusion.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Are you talking about the tool [flat bar] that locks the cams? Fool, that alignment tool [flat bar] is an absolute must in order to set the cams in the "Valve Overlap" position...the settings have to be accurate.

Who said it was okay? You? The same person that said cardboard would work as an alignment tool.

If it's an "absolute must", then how come Kremit and I both got our engines to run perfectly without needing it? Coincidence? Luck? Did we leave saucers of milk out for the engine fairies?

That's why I say cardboard, or nothing at all, is okay -- because when my friend and I went to the trouble of fabricating and using the precision alignment tool, all we accomplished with it was to show that the alignment was perfectly good already, just as it had been before the engine was taken apart. Because we kept the existing sprocket alignment on the camshafts. (And this wasn't just a belt change, this was a total teardown of the engine.)

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Yes, you do, but not as a normal part of a timing belt change! When you do need to, then the alignment tool is required.

What are you going on about? The alignment tool will always be needed. What's wrong? You're unable to even use the proper terms for the tools?

I'm being as precise as I can. Camshaft alignment tool = flat plate of precision thickness. Cam sprocket tool = long arm with two pegs a few inches apart (another thing I have a homemade version of). Crank positioning tool = the pin thing. All three are needed if you adjust the timing of the camshaft sprockets on the camshafts. None of the three are needed (though some are helpful) if you are only adjusting the timing of the belt teeth on the sprockets. The former is a fine adjustment, the latter is a coarse adjustment. That is why the first requires precise measurements and the second requires only rough ones. I don't know how I can be any more precise and careful in spelling out the distinctions I'm making.

As far as I can tell at this point, you are not arguing with any one specific point I'm making, but just making a vague general denial in which I can't even tell which specific point you're trying to attack. I'm left wondering if you're the one who is confused between the two separate jobs being discussed and maybe not using the terminology clearly.

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
I think that someone said that the peg is only needed when the cams need to be moved...so...why...the belt is meant to work as the cam holding tool, instead of an actual tool, allowing the crank to stay locked while the belt gets destroyed?

"Belt as a cam holding tool??" Now you're just throwing out general confusion. Your idea of what you think I'm saying is practically the opposite of what I said, which was just that the sprocket holding tool is another item that is needed for sprocket timing adjustment but not for a timing belt change. No, the belt is not used as a cam holding tool. There is no need for a tool because you don't need to do any cam holding. Just stick them right side up and slap the belt on, then verify that the crank and the cams are facing the correct direction at the same time, within an error of 4.5 degrees, which is pretty hard to miss.

People like Paul are why we can manage to do our own timing belt changes while not being "professionals". Paul delivers correct, helpful, and precise information. While the "professional" just says what the book says and argues endlessly.

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

He also built and tuned gas and diesel engines using only his ear,

He'd need more than his ear, today.

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to make sure it was right, and was swapping V8s into mini trucks and retrofitting fuel injection onto carbed engines before it was "cool". He didnt need fancy computers or expensive tools.

He'd sure need them in todays market.

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And all his experience and knowledge is being handed down to me, a little at a time. Wanna talk about experience? I got all I need just a few steps away.

Him being a good mechanic doesn't automatically make you a good mechanic. It's his years of hard work and experience, not yours.

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Need a set of master keys for a Peterbilt or Kenworth?? I got em. Need special tools for any domestic gas engine up to about 1990, including Flatheads? I got em too. Because all of his tools were given to me when he retired. You didnt see me bragging about it when I got all these seriously cool tools. I had to build another shed just to hold all of it

I almost never see a 1990 vehicle in my shop anymore.

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I respect the fact that you are well equiped for your job, but throwing around $$ figures is kind of sad.

Not when a backyard amatuer thinks that any mother with a $99.00 tool set from Sears can call themselves a professional and make a living at it.

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I have learned that even of you dont have a special tool to get the job done, its no problem. Either make your own or make do with what you have. I also understand that you have a lot of experience, but so does Kremit and others on here, and if I can save a few bucks and still do the job right following what they say, guess what, I just saved a few bucks

I guess less experience is better, even when it comes to every person at this group that hasn't done every job on their Contours themselves, taking their cars in to be fixed [I'm seeing it a lot, here], it's nice to go into it totally clueless, I guess.

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OTOH, you want to buy whatever special tool is needed for a certain job, and I can respect that, more power to you. But dont talk about having so many expensive tools, cause I can hang with that, and probably show you stuff you never knew existed.

Then there's no need for you to cry about a pro having more tools than a non-pro...if I go to a dentist, I want to see more than a piece of string and a screwdriver.

Quote:

My Dad (and probably Kremits too, probably about the same age) come from the old-school way of thinking. If you dont have the tool, you still gotta fix the problem. No need to go out and spend $$ if you dont have to.

We're living in the modern times now.

Originally posted by Stryker:

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
My dad is a diesel truck mechanic and basically is the head mechanic where he works. He has spent a lot of money on tools, but by that I mean thousands, maybe $3k, $4k at most, not 10s of thousands. He has bought used tool boxs to save lots of money but of course only buys new tools. He has enough tools (save for air compressors, computers, lifts,etc.) to do basically anything to a diesel truck, and most passenger vehicles as well. I'm sure he has some specialized tools but ONLY if they are needed and no other tool can be substituted. And somehow he manages to do the job right because he doesn't want trucks coming back in to the shop.

3k is absolutely nothing. I could [did] spend over 1k just to work on a few FWD wheel bearings/hubs, and that includes no hand tools...spent over that much [1k] for just one 3/4 drive *airgun*...$850.00 on a battery tester...$400.00 for a short tracer...$200.00 for a few sockets...just some basic stuff. But I don't work on that many diesel trucks...just work on Acuras - Volvos, and pretty much everything in between, bumper-to-bumper, like most modern shops.

No offense MeanGreen, but the amount of money spent on tools means nothing to me. Its how you are able to fix whatever you are working on that matters. My Dad was also the head diesel mechanic before he retired. He has tools I never even knew existed. Estimated value is well over 20K mostly since he has been doing it for over 35 years, but a lot of his tools are MADE.

If he couldnt afford or find that tool he needed, or he was only going to use it 2 times a year, he made his own, usually for a single job, since he also designed and built one-off hydraulic systems for dump trucks, trash trucks, etc. He is also a damn fine welder and built packer bodies and all the related hydraulic and electrical systems FROM SCRATCH. He has tools that are as old as I am and are still in excellent condition. But he never paid $200 for sockets. he also taught me how to trace shorts without a $400 tracer He also built and tuned gas and diesel engines using only his ear, to make sure it was right, and was swapping V8s into mini trucks and retrofitting fuel injection onto carbed engines before it was "cool". He didnt need fancy computers or expensive tools. And all his experience and knowledge is being handed down to me, a little at a time. Wanna talk about experience? I got all I need just a few steps away.

Need a set of master keys for a Peterbilt or Kenworth?? I got em. Need special tools for any domestic gas engine up to about 1990, including Flatheads? I got em too. Because all of his tools were given to me when he retired. You didnt see me bragging about it when I got all these seriously cool tools. I had to build another shed just to hold all of it

I respect the fact that you are well equiped for your job, but throwing around $$ figures is kind of sad. I have learned that even of you dont have a special tool to get the job done, its no problem. Either make your own or make do with what you have. I also understand that you have a lot of experience, but so does Kremit and others on here, and if I can save a few bucks and still do the job right following what they say, guess what, I just saved a few bucks

OTOH, you want to buy whatever special tool is needed for a certain job, and I can respect that, more power to you. But dont talk about having so many expensive tools, cause I can hang with that, and probably show you stuff you never knew existed.

My Dad (and probably Kremits too, probably about the same age) come from the old-school way of thinking. If you dont have the tool, you still gotta fix the problem. No need to go out and spend $$ if you dont have to.

Can we all just get along now?

well said, my dad is right there with yours CRZYDRVR.

So is my dad, but if he were asked to work on the modern cars that are being built and driven today, he'd get as far as opening the hood before he'd have to come over and start asking questions and having me to use my tools and my equipment.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Quote:

I think it anybody could work on a car. I think even someone like my mom, who acts like she could never work on a car, actually could, if she wanted to. That's why I wanna design cars, not just work on them, hopefully (and I'm sure it will be) it'll be more of a challenge.

Could she do a timing chain and a water pump on a quad engine, or figure out and repair a reoccuring no-start problem on a BMW, replace a heater core on a F-body, while the customer waits because they're already late for an appointment? She's up to the challenge, expert?

Dream on.

Not overnight of course. You didn't crawl outta your momma's womb able to do it either. I said if she wanted to she could. Meaning she could do the same thing as you, read a book/look at a dvd/cd and figure it out. If it was worth it to her, and if she wouldn't mind getting dirty, then yeah, I'd imagine she'd be up to the challenge.

Good, tell her that we start work at 7AM...your mother's job today will be an evaporator, tune-up, rear struts and right-front wheel bearing on the '96 blue Subaru. Has to be finished by closing tomorrow, no later. Oh, and one of the heat shields is rattling on the exhaust, but tell her not to worry about that, I'll handle that myself.

Quote:

I won't even reply to your other replies, because you just try to change the subject and not even comprehend what I say or make a very good response.

I tried to change the subject?

b.t.w. I expect your mother's shirt to be tucked in...and she doesn't need to worry about packing her lunch, that'll be on me.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:

Quote:

Didn't say that, I said I'd rather help someone do it themselves, rather than tell them the "by the book" way which they can easily find themselves (either in a book or on dvd/cd).

You'd have them cut corners, instead of doing it right while they had it apart?

Quote:

No, I'd have them do it right, but without buying tools they don't absolutely need, or have them do anything they don't have to do.

You'll dictate to them what tools they can buy and not buy? What do you plan to do, block their way when the Mac tool man arrives?

Quote:

That would be a know-nothing attitude. But I've talked to mechanics that act like they are the ONLY person to ever work on a car and that the owner doesn't know anything about automobiles. You definitely seem to be one of those.

You think your backyard graduation can keep up with my experience, expert?

Quote:

As far as the any job I've done so far on the zetec, yes.

A very limited yes?

Quote:

Keyword number 2 and 3: another state

1st Keyword: Dealer...so if his source for the one part is the dealer, why would you have him find another source for the tensioner spring and bolt that they already have, right there?

Quote:

Put the keywords together, DEALER from ANOTHER STATE. Same source buddy.

But I thought you wanted him to find a seperate source for each item. Why not just buy it at one place, seeing that the spring and bolt are dealer items, and he was already thinking about getting the pulley from the dealer...

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Hmm, I work on my car out of necessity, and I give advice based on my experience and what obviously works. Even if you don't like it, other people appreciate it, and you can shove your head into your thousand dollar dvd to figure stuff out if you don't like how me and others on here do it ourselves.

You can keep your files and cardboard, and you can just imagine what you would do with a professional shop that is packed full with real nice equipment and boxes that are stuffed with every tool you'd ever need...while trying to tell me that doing it right, following procedure, is somehow the wrong way to do it.

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I'm not saying it's wrong to use the "correct tools" and the "correct" procedure, but no need to do all that if you don't have the "correct" tools already and if you want to save time. There are some cases where you can save money and/or time by substituting tools,

Using the right tools saves time, it doesn't waste it...and the right tools make for a better job, not an inferior job.

Quote:

changing procedure,etc. that will still result in a perfect job. Like I said, ask countless zetec owners on here (the ones that don't have flapping timing belts, the ones that do have flapping belts have either never changed their timing belt or have gone to so called "professionals" or in a few cases, just don't know what they were doing and screwed their stuff up).

LMAO, the profesionals are the ones that will most likely have the right tools and will know about the outlined procedure of adjusting the cam pullies during the belt replacement, going the extra distance to get it perfect, when the DIYs have never even heard about it because their paperback never even clued them in on that procedure.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

Originally posted by CRZYDRVR:

My Dad (and probably Kremits too, probably about the same age) come from the old-school way of thinking. If you dont have the tool, you still gotta fix the problem. No need to go out and spend $$ if you dont have to.

Can we all just get along now?

Yeah, definitely same kinda dads.

I'm all for getting along. I think meangreen is real worked up about this and thinks I'm really worked up about it too. I'm not though, I just like to discuss/argue stuff.

Meangreen, it's OK to not know everything and to be wrong sometimes. Every one is wrong every know and then. It's also OK to do things differently in different situations. Not everybody does everything the same way. Everybody can't do everything the same way. It must be nice to be able to afford thousands of dollars of tools, and to throw away aftermarket exhausts,etc. but most of us can't do that,,, so we make do with what works. And when I say make do with what works, we do it because it WORKS. And if it works, even if it's not by the book, then it's OK by us.

Don't worry about my tools and my old exhaust systems, etc...dwelling on it only makes you appear worked up over it...making it appear that the real root to your problem with me is not about knowing how to work on cars, but more on the lines of what I can "afford" to buy and thow away.

And again, if you have the special secret trick that can't be trusted with just everybody way of holding the cams w/o the need of a real cam holding tool, why did you go to the professional, having him to do that job for you, using his tools and his methods, not your special tools and your secret methods?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
People like Paul are why we can manage to do our own timing belt changes while not being "professionals". Paul delivers correct, helpful, and precise information. While the "professional" just says what the book says and argues endlessly.

No, when I have more time, I'll address Paul's bad advice and self-confusion. He's wrong, but you believe his carboard theories and his one tooth allowance rule/crap, it's only because you don't know enough to know, and he knows just enough to be dangerous...but he got extremely long-winded with his amateurish rant, that's what convinced you, I'm sure.

b.t.w. Your mother better be leaving for work, soon...our shop opens up for business in 45 minutes.

ya know meangreen, nobody has said it, but i will, you are being a real [censored]

, you think these people give a [censored]? i couldnt give 2, except for the fact that you are badgering/flaming fellow members. you are not arguing, your being a dick...that comment about kremits mom was totally uncalled for. i actually had some respect for you until you said that. i could care less what you do with your stuff, cause you paid for it. i have stayed out of it till now, but i cant any longer...that comment was so harsh, that i am taking it personally, and it wasnt even directed at me. my mother (as well as his and yours im sure) has forgotten more about most things than you (or I) will EVER know. and they deserve a little more respect than they get from MOTHERF****** like you. my mom makes more money than she knows what to do with, and she STILL has to put up with [censored] like you everyday. STFU and quit being a prick

. that said, have a nice day.

oh, BTW, i take my car to a professional that i know and i TRUST. the same people that have been working on my/my parents cars for over 20 years. get over yourself, your not the best. and i only take it there when i dont have time to do [censored] myself.

consider yourself OWN3D. i am reporting ths thread to a moderator in the hopes that it will be locked. this is rediculous and a waste of bandwidth/siteresources...not to mention a waste of fu(k!ng time.

oh and another thing, my dad can tell me exactly whats wrong with my engine 97% of the time just by listnening to it...if its engine related he can hear/feel it. so dont give me this "times have changed bullsh!t" an engine is still an engine and the basic concept behind it (ecpecially the inline format that our 4 cylinders have) has not changed in 100 years...

and dont give me the [censored] about dual overhead cams being different, they are still cams...they are jsut relocated so the valves dont need rods to open and close...it adds horsepower too, but they are also easier to work on/with, and they make things more compact. if you are any kind of mechanic, you should know this and agree.

ok im done.

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Wrong. I can probably repeat what I did before...order it online and get it in 2 days...or at worst, order it off of one of the weekly tool men, and have it in the next week, not a month.

Quote:

Guess the Ford dealerships don't know to order it online.

And they never think to ask the local Cornwell or Matco tool men, etc... about those tools, each week that they're allowed to drive right on up to their service bays?

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?

Quote:

Pretty hard to tell, with you in the conversation. I'm trying to be as clear as possible about the distinction of exactly which jobs are being talked about for each point, and you keep coming back with confusion.

We're talking about timing belt service and you're the one that brought your cardboard and one tooth rules to this conversation, not me.

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Are you talking about the tool [flat bar] that locks the cams? Fool, that alignment tool [flat bar] is an absolute must in order to set the cams in the "Valve Overlap" position...the settings have to be accurate.

Who said it was okay? You? The same person that said cardboard would work as an alignment tool.

Quote:

If it's an "absolute must", then how come Kremit and I both got our engines to run perfectly without needing it? Coincidence? Luck? Did we leave saucers of milk out for the engine fairies?

You don't need to align your cams...really? When you removed your belt's tension, do you remember what happened? One of your cams jumped for you, yes...even tho' everything was set at #1 TDC...correct? Why? Because it was under tension and didn't want to stay in the exact same position, the very moment that you started to release tension? And you claim that a tool isn't needed? LOL...then why did Kremit make one/use one...are you pretending that others don't use them?

-----

Quote:

That's why I say cardboard, or nothing at all, is okay --

Because your cams are floating in mid-air?

-----

Quote:

because when my friend and I went to the trouble of fabricating and using the precision alignment tool, all we accomplished with it was to show that the alignment was perfectly good already, just as it had been before the engine was taken apart. Because we kept the existing sprocket alignment on the camshafts. (And this wasn't just a belt change, this was a total teardown of the engine.)

Then how come about 99.9% of the time, at least, the alignment tool doesn't just flop in there like a piece of cardboard...the cams have to be rotated with an outside force to make the tool fit into the slots...because the cam is under its own pressure/

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Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...

Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Yes, you do, but not as a normal part of a timing belt change! When you do need to, then the alignment tool is required.

What are you going on about? The alignment tool will always be needed. What's wrong? You're unable to even use the proper terms for the tools?

Quote:

I'm being as precise as I can.

You're doing a terrible job.

-----

Quote:

Camshaft alignment tool = flat plate of precision thickness. Cam sprocket tool = long arm with two pegs a few inches apart (another thing I have a homemade version of). Crank positioning tool = the pin thing. All three are needed if you adjust the timing of the camshaft sprockets on the camshafts. None of the three are needed (though some are helpful) if you are only adjusting the timing of the belt teeth on the sprockets. The former is a fine adjustment, the latter is a coarse adjustment. That is why the first requires precise measurements and the second requires only rough ones. I don't know how I can be any more precise and careful in spelling out the distinctions I'm making.

By starting over...and you got it just back-a**wards...the alignment tool is the coarse adjuster, the sprocket holding tool is for going in and doing the fine adjustment [fact]...because, silly, once the belt is installed, everything is set but not just right, almost ready to go, you use the sprocket holder to back off the cam bolts...and the belt will get tighter, like magic, even though you probably won't actually see it happen when the tensioner pulls its little trick.

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Quote:

As far as I can tell at this point, you are not arguing with any one specific point I'm making, but just making a vague general denial in which I can't even tell which specific point you're trying to attack. I'm left wondering if you're the one who is confused between the two separate jobs being discussed and maybe not using the terminology clearly.

You don't know enough to understand what's happening...it's as easy as that.

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Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
I think that someone said that the peg is only needed when the cams need to be moved...so...why...the belt is meant to work as the cam holding tool, instead of an actual tool, allowing the crank to stay locked while the belt gets destroyed?

Quote:

"Belt as a cam holding tool??" Now you're just throwing out general confusion. Your idea of what you think I'm saying is practically the opposite of what I said, which was just that the sprocket holding tool is another item that is needed for sprocket timing adjustment but not for a timing belt change.

Absolutely not true. There are times that readjusting the cams is absolutely needed when doing the belt replacement. You can't just ignore the step just because you're too lazy or too dense. Did the factory let the engine leave out with misaligned cams? No. That's why the tools are needed and why the book says to get it closer than you already have if you can't put the tool right back into the slot, right after you just removed it.

And the timing peg is used for only one reason...when you grab up that belt with your hands and install it on the engine with your hands...no matter how ruff you try to get while removing the slack and getting the belt over the exhaust cam...no matter how much you growl and puff, the crankshaft will not move on you, not the least little bit.

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Quote:

No, the belt is not used as a cam holding tool. There is no need for a tool because you don't need to do any cam holding.

The peg/crank holder is doing its job at holding the crank, the alignment bar is doing its job at holding the cams, while *installing* the belt.

-----

Quote:

Just stick them right side up and slap the belt on, then verify that the crank and the cams are facing the correct direction at the same time, within an error of 4.5 degrees, which is pretty hard to miss.

4.5 degress...as in the alignment
tool will NOT fit back into the provided slots on the camshafts?!!...even tho' they're stuck up in the right direction? Darn...guess you'll have to loosen off the tensioner, reinstall the tool...and try it aGAIN...still too loose? Crap...better dig out the ol' cam pulley holding tool

Originally posted by Stryker:
ya know meangreen, nobody has said it, but i will, you are being a real [censored] , you think these people give a [censored]? i couldnt give 2, except for the fact that you are badgering/flaming fellow members. you are not arguing, your being a dick...that comment about kremits mom was totally uncalled for. i actually had some respect for you until you said that.

Go suck yourself. He's the fool that brought his mother into this. You believed him when he wailed that she could be a professional mechanic? You believed me when I said that her shirt needed to be tucked in?

He should have never used her to try to make his point. And if you're crying because the fellow members are needing to try and make me believe that by doing it right is somehow doing it wrong, just so they can argue with me about timing belts even tho' their frustration still comes from what I did with my old exhaust system, not my fault that they're finding any excuse that they can to dispute me.

Quote:

i could care less what you do with your stuff, cause you paid for it. i have stayed out of it till now, but i cant any longer...that comment was so harsh, that i am taking it personally, and it wasnt even directed at me. my mother (as well as his and yours im sure) has forgotten more about most things than you (or I) will EVER know. and they deserve a little more respect than they get from MOTHERF****** like you.

Or criers that drag their mothers into this to try and make a point about trying to belittle the profession of being a mechanic? Look at the old posting again...that's the ONLY reason he brought his mother into this...to trash professional mechanics and the skills that are required to be one [fact]. Grow up.

Quote:

my mom makes more money than she knows what to do with, and she STILL has to put up with [censored] like you everyday. STFU and quit being a prick . that said, have a nice day.

She reads this forum?

Quote:

oh, BTW, i take my car to a professional that i know and i TRUST. the same people that have been working on my/my parents cars for over 20 years. get over yourself, your not the best. and i only take it there when i dont have time to do [censored] myself.

consider yourself OWN3D. i am reporting ths thread to a moderator in the hopes that it will be locked. this is rediculous and a waste of bandwidth/siteresources...not to mention a waste of fu(k!ng time.

oh and another thing, my dad can tell me exactly whats wrong with my engine 97% of the time just by listnening to it...if its engine related he can hear/feel it. so dont give me this "times have changed bullsh!t" an engine is still an engine and the basic concept behind it (ecpecially the inline format that our 4 cylinders have) has not changed in 100 years...

and dont give me the [censored] about dual overhead cams being different, they are still cams...they are jsut relocated so the valves dont need rods to open and close...it adds horsepower too, but they are also easier to work on/with, and they make things more compact. if you are any kind of mechanic, you should know this and agree.

ok im done.

I won't even respond to that over-emotional and inaccurate slop of yours...I'll just

instead.

go for it, im done here, i have said what i wanted to...i dont belittle the mechanics profession, my grandfather was a mechanic for 45 [censored] years, so go blow yourself.

laught at me all you want, i could give 2 [censored], as i said.

Originally posted by Stryker:
go for it, im done here, i have said what i wanted to...i dont belittle the mechanics profession, my grandfather was a mechanic for 45 [censored] years, so go blow yourself.

laught at me all you want, i could give 2 [censored], as i said.

Show me where I said you ever did belittle the profession. Kremit made the comment, not you, so get over it and calm down.