Bad exp w/ a vendor - LONG - 56K WARNED - 07/17/03 06:40 PM
This is a long story, so please bear with me.
Posting disputes publicly is not something I want to do, but I feel that I should let other know of my experience/problems,
so they can determine for themselves the potential risks associated with MM Motorsports (MM)
Late 2002 - I agreed to purchase MM Xenon Quad Projector headlights.
01/03 - I wanted a top-notch product and purchased brand new OEM headlights in December 2002 and shipped them to MM.
2/24/03 - I received the lights.
2/24/03 - The lights looked great at first glance
But I then noticed that they were full of dust and the inside of the lights were covered in spots.
There was also a scratch on the chrome inside.
2/24/03 - I contacted MM to let them know of the problems.
2/24/03 - MM suggested using a small tube and vacuuming out the dust.
I tried this and managed to get some of the dust out, but unfortunately there was nothing I could do about the spots and remaining dust.
(I do not have any pics, but several local CEGers can attest to how dusty and spotted the headlights were.)
2/26/03 - I asked MM what I should do and MM stated:
??I am serious, if you can't rectify the problems, please send them back and I'll chop the lights apart and clean them for you.?
2/27/03 ?? PM from MM:
??If I do have to cut them open, I am gonna attempt to remove the projectors and not cut them apart.?
3/?/03 ?? I PM??d to MM asking what problems could result from opening the lights up.
3/8/03 ?? PM from MM:
??To ease your concerns some, I have made 5 sets of MM SPORTS thus far.
None of them have reported leaks of moisture as of now.
As I said before, the sealant is so thick that you need a butterknife to spread it around.
No way it is ever gonna leak. You will never see that happen.
I am gonna attempt to take out the projectors first.
If this does not work then the housing will have to come apart.
Hopefully the operation will go smoothly...?
3/03
I decided to go ahead and ship the lights back to MM since they assured me that the lights would not leak and
there would be no other problems associated with cutting them open.
I shipped the lights to MM to have them attempt to remove the projectors and clean them,
if not then cut them open to clean the dust and spots.
* Up to this point I was very happy with Milan Motorsports?? service and willingness to stand behind their products.
Late 3/03
I received the lights and installed them.
As soon as it rained the lights began fogging up.
One even filled up with about ½ inch of rain.
I PM??d MM to inform them of the leaking.
I also stated that I was unhappy about:
- how the silver ??eyebrow? on each headlight was damaged
- the chrome housing was damaged
- a piece of black plastic wedged inside one headlight
3/27/03 ?? PM from MM:
??As far as the fogging issues, you'll have to get a hold of some silicone sealant and attempt to cure to problem.
Just apply it to all the seams you see, including the ones where the projectors go in.?
4/03 ?? 5/03
It rained so much here (IIRC April was 28 days of rain) that the lights
would not dry out for me to attempt to add silicone to all of the seals.
I was finally able to do so during a dry spell.
They continued to leak.
I tried ??resealing? about 3 times per light.
Mid 5/03
I contacted MM letting them know I could not get the lights sealed properly.
5/19/03 ?? PM from MM:
??As a suggestion/advice try to dump tons of silicone based sealant all around the projector welds.
This is the area where the projectors are sealed to the housings...
If this does not work, than go around the entire headlight seam that was cut open...?
5/31/03
I took the SVT to the All Ford Nationals in Carlisle, PA on May 30, 2003.
It rained and the projectors fogged up so badly that the projectors could barely be seen.
Many people commented that what they could see of the projectors looked good,
but the workmanship was very poor ?? the silver ??eyebrows? on each light and the cracked chrome.
Early 6/03 ?? I decided to ask MM for a refund on the lights for several reasons:
1. After 3-4 times of attempting to reseal them, they still leaked.
2. I had spent countless hours attempting to seal the lights.
3. My car was un-drivable for a total of about 14-16 days due to the headlights drying out, being sealed and drying.
4. People??s reactions/impressions of the lights at the All Ford Nationals reinforced my decision.
Early to Mid 6/03
I contacted MM and informed them that the lights still leaked and I was unhappy about the workmanship.
6/18/03 ?? PM from MM:
??I am moving to Toronto in the next few days.
Once I get situated up there, you can send them to me and I will rectify the situation.?
6/18/03 ?? My PM to MM:
??Honestly, I just want to get rid of the lights.
I took the car up to the All Ford Nationals a couple weeks ago and people commented they looked great.
But then they saw they were all fogged up inside and full of water, the cracks created from being cut open,
and the silver side "brow" damaged from being cut open and were not impressed.
Like I said, I am just tired of dealing with the lights.
I'd like to just get rid of them at this point. I'll keep the HIDs and end up buying new headlights again to just put them into.
I'm strapped for cash right now so that is also why I would like some kind of refund for the lights and projectors less HIDs.?
* I wanted to be fair to both MM and myself, so I did not ask for a full refund.
I felt it was fair to ask for a refund for the ??defective? parts.
MM refused a refund, but offered ??the only thing I can do is to attempt to fix the fogging.?
I felt that this was unfair because:
- MM stated that the only potential problem would be leaking
- I was reassured by MM that they would not leak
- The damage to the headlights were from MM cutting the lights open
* MM admitted damage was direct result of them cutting the lights open and their fault.
7/11/03 PM from MM
admitted that the problems with my lights were the fault of MM, not mine:
??The silvering, the eyebrows, the black pieces are all a result of me ripping them apart.
And who knows, perhaps ripping them apart is also to blame for their fogging.?
??I do not question that the lights are leaking or that they look bad. I believe you 100%.?
??Anytime you assemble something by hand, you risk that it will have some minor blemishes.?
??Once again, to reiterate, these lights are not machine produced in an assembly line...
They are hand made, and thus imperfections are impossible to eliminate 100%.
I am sorry if you expected them to be free of any signs of production, but this is simply unavoidable.?
7/12/03 My PM to MM:
??I did not expect "perfect" lights.
This is completely unreasonable on your part.
These are not merely small "imperfections".
There are gaping cracks in the chrome.
The wrecked eyebrows are not a small imperfection-they ruin the look of the car.?
7/13/03 PM from MM:
??The lights leak - That is my concern.
All of the rest is out of my control as it was you who asked me to rip them apart.
The brows? Once again-you asked me to rip them apart.
The cracked lenses? Once again-you asked me to rip them apart.
Poor craftmanship? Is it my fault that you asked me to rip them apart?
NO IT IS NOT. End of discussion.?
If you want I will send you a $100 that you paid me to put them together.
I also am willing to send you used Ford lights as well.?
7/13/03
I offered MM the option to post this matter on CEG and let CEGers be
the judge and jury to decide what, if anything, I was entitled to.
MM ignored that PM.
I asked MM again and he said he did not want others getting involved.
* I have refused MM??s offer of $100 and a set of used headlights for I feel it is not a fair ??settlement?.
Especially considering I spent over $1200 for these lights!
Summary:
* I did not ask MM to cut the lights open.
- MM offered attempt to clean out the spots and dust left from assembly of the projectors.
* I asked MM what risks were associated with cutting them open.
- MM stated only leaking.
* I was leaning towards not having MM cut them open, but MM reassured me they would not:
??To ease your concerns some, I have made 5 sets of MM SPORTS thus far.
None of them have reported leaks of moisture as of now.
As I said before, the sealant is so thick that you need a butterknife to spread it around.
No way it is ever gonna leak. You will never see that happen.?
- The lights do leak ?? badly.
* MM admitted to being at fault.
MM then changed their story and blames me for making him cut them open.
* The projectors, when not fogged up (which is not often), work very well.
* It typically takes anywhere from 2-4 dry days for the lights to ??dry out? after fogging up.
* I feel that a producer of a product should stand behind their work.
If a producer provides a defective product to a consumer, the producer should:
a) replace the product
b) fix the product
c) provide a refund.
MM has refused to do any of the above.
* I feel that the seller of a product should inform the buyer of any potential hazards/problems that may result from a service.
Would you expect your car to go through a car wash and come out with scratches all over it?
And what if the carwash owner said ??You asked me to wash it, and it??s washed isn??t it??
* I feel that asking for a refund for the defective parts is a fair.
* I have every PM between Milan Motorsports and myself and firsthand witnesses as evidence to confirm my story.
* Note ?? I am not the only person that is unhappy with MM??s workmanship.
I will not mention any names.
I wanted to avoid posting this on CEG and settle the matter privately.
But since the matter could not be resolved privately, I feel that CEG should be aware of
my situation and take this into consideration before doing business with Milan Motorsports.
Here is what Milan Motorsports did to my brand new OEM headlights:
(Sorry for the large pics - I wanted everyone to see how bad the lights have been damaged)
More pictures of Milan Motorsports' workmanship
Posting disputes publicly is not something I want to do, but I feel that I should let other know of my experience/problems,
so they can determine for themselves the potential risks associated with MM Motorsports (MM)
Late 2002 - I agreed to purchase MM Xenon Quad Projector headlights.
01/03 - I wanted a top-notch product and purchased brand new OEM headlights in December 2002 and shipped them to MM.
2/24/03 - I received the lights.
2/24/03 - The lights looked great at first glance
But I then noticed that they were full of dust and the inside of the lights were covered in spots.
There was also a scratch on the chrome inside.
2/24/03 - I contacted MM to let them know of the problems.
2/24/03 - MM suggested using a small tube and vacuuming out the dust.
I tried this and managed to get some of the dust out, but unfortunately there was nothing I could do about the spots and remaining dust.
(I do not have any pics, but several local CEGers can attest to how dusty and spotted the headlights were.)
2/26/03 - I asked MM what I should do and MM stated:
??I am serious, if you can't rectify the problems, please send them back and I'll chop the lights apart and clean them for you.?
2/27/03 ?? PM from MM:
??If I do have to cut them open, I am gonna attempt to remove the projectors and not cut them apart.?
3/?/03 ?? I PM??d to MM asking what problems could result from opening the lights up.
3/8/03 ?? PM from MM:
??To ease your concerns some, I have made 5 sets of MM SPORTS thus far.
None of them have reported leaks of moisture as of now.
As I said before, the sealant is so thick that you need a butterknife to spread it around.
No way it is ever gonna leak. You will never see that happen.
I am gonna attempt to take out the projectors first.
If this does not work then the housing will have to come apart.
Hopefully the operation will go smoothly...?
3/03
I decided to go ahead and ship the lights back to MM since they assured me that the lights would not leak and
there would be no other problems associated with cutting them open.
I shipped the lights to MM to have them attempt to remove the projectors and clean them,
if not then cut them open to clean the dust and spots.
* Up to this point I was very happy with Milan Motorsports?? service and willingness to stand behind their products.
Late 3/03
I received the lights and installed them.
As soon as it rained the lights began fogging up.
One even filled up with about ½ inch of rain.
I PM??d MM to inform them of the leaking.
I also stated that I was unhappy about:
- how the silver ??eyebrow? on each headlight was damaged
- the chrome housing was damaged
- a piece of black plastic wedged inside one headlight
3/27/03 ?? PM from MM:
??As far as the fogging issues, you'll have to get a hold of some silicone sealant and attempt to cure to problem.
Just apply it to all the seams you see, including the ones where the projectors go in.?
4/03 ?? 5/03
It rained so much here (IIRC April was 28 days of rain) that the lights
would not dry out for me to attempt to add silicone to all of the seals.
I was finally able to do so during a dry spell.
They continued to leak.
I tried ??resealing? about 3 times per light.
Mid 5/03
I contacted MM letting them know I could not get the lights sealed properly.
5/19/03 ?? PM from MM:
??As a suggestion/advice try to dump tons of silicone based sealant all around the projector welds.
This is the area where the projectors are sealed to the housings...
If this does not work, than go around the entire headlight seam that was cut open...?
5/31/03
I took the SVT to the All Ford Nationals in Carlisle, PA on May 30, 2003.
It rained and the projectors fogged up so badly that the projectors could barely be seen.
Many people commented that what they could see of the projectors looked good,
but the workmanship was very poor ?? the silver ??eyebrows? on each light and the cracked chrome.
Early 6/03 ?? I decided to ask MM for a refund on the lights for several reasons:
1. After 3-4 times of attempting to reseal them, they still leaked.
2. I had spent countless hours attempting to seal the lights.
3. My car was un-drivable for a total of about 14-16 days due to the headlights drying out, being sealed and drying.
4. People??s reactions/impressions of the lights at the All Ford Nationals reinforced my decision.
Early to Mid 6/03
I contacted MM and informed them that the lights still leaked and I was unhappy about the workmanship.
6/18/03 ?? PM from MM:
??I am moving to Toronto in the next few days.
Once I get situated up there, you can send them to me and I will rectify the situation.?
6/18/03 ?? My PM to MM:
??Honestly, I just want to get rid of the lights.
I took the car up to the All Ford Nationals a couple weeks ago and people commented they looked great.
But then they saw they were all fogged up inside and full of water, the cracks created from being cut open,
and the silver side "brow" damaged from being cut open and were not impressed.
Like I said, I am just tired of dealing with the lights.
I'd like to just get rid of them at this point. I'll keep the HIDs and end up buying new headlights again to just put them into.
I'm strapped for cash right now so that is also why I would like some kind of refund for the lights and projectors less HIDs.?
* I wanted to be fair to both MM and myself, so I did not ask for a full refund.
I felt it was fair to ask for a refund for the ??defective? parts.
MM refused a refund, but offered ??the only thing I can do is to attempt to fix the fogging.?
I felt that this was unfair because:
- MM stated that the only potential problem would be leaking
- I was reassured by MM that they would not leak
- The damage to the headlights were from MM cutting the lights open
* MM admitted damage was direct result of them cutting the lights open and their fault.
7/11/03 PM from MM
admitted that the problems with my lights were the fault of MM, not mine:
??The silvering, the eyebrows, the black pieces are all a result of me ripping them apart.
And who knows, perhaps ripping them apart is also to blame for their fogging.?
??I do not question that the lights are leaking or that they look bad. I believe you 100%.?
??Anytime you assemble something by hand, you risk that it will have some minor blemishes.?
??Once again, to reiterate, these lights are not machine produced in an assembly line...
They are hand made, and thus imperfections are impossible to eliminate 100%.
I am sorry if you expected them to be free of any signs of production, but this is simply unavoidable.?
7/12/03 My PM to MM:
??I did not expect "perfect" lights.
This is completely unreasonable on your part.
These are not merely small "imperfections".
There are gaping cracks in the chrome.
The wrecked eyebrows are not a small imperfection-they ruin the look of the car.?
7/13/03 PM from MM:
??The lights leak - That is my concern.
All of the rest is out of my control as it was you who asked me to rip them apart.
The brows? Once again-you asked me to rip them apart.
The cracked lenses? Once again-you asked me to rip them apart.
Poor craftmanship? Is it my fault that you asked me to rip them apart?
NO IT IS NOT. End of discussion.?
If you want I will send you a $100 that you paid me to put them together.
I also am willing to send you used Ford lights as well.?
7/13/03
I offered MM the option to post this matter on CEG and let CEGers be
the judge and jury to decide what, if anything, I was entitled to.
MM ignored that PM.
I asked MM again and he said he did not want others getting involved.
* I have refused MM??s offer of $100 and a set of used headlights for I feel it is not a fair ??settlement?.
Especially considering I spent over $1200 for these lights!
Summary:
* I did not ask MM to cut the lights open.
- MM offered attempt to clean out the spots and dust left from assembly of the projectors.
* I asked MM what risks were associated with cutting them open.
- MM stated only leaking.
* I was leaning towards not having MM cut them open, but MM reassured me they would not:
??To ease your concerns some, I have made 5 sets of MM SPORTS thus far.
None of them have reported leaks of moisture as of now.
As I said before, the sealant is so thick that you need a butterknife to spread it around.
No way it is ever gonna leak. You will never see that happen.?
- The lights do leak ?? badly.
* MM admitted to being at fault.
MM then changed their story and blames me for making him cut them open.
* The projectors, when not fogged up (which is not often), work very well.
* It typically takes anywhere from 2-4 dry days for the lights to ??dry out? after fogging up.
* I feel that a producer of a product should stand behind their work.
If a producer provides a defective product to a consumer, the producer should:
a) replace the product
b) fix the product
c) provide a refund.
MM has refused to do any of the above.
* I feel that the seller of a product should inform the buyer of any potential hazards/problems that may result from a service.
Would you expect your car to go through a car wash and come out with scratches all over it?
And what if the carwash owner said ??You asked me to wash it, and it??s washed isn??t it??
* I feel that asking for a refund for the defective parts is a fair.
* I have every PM between Milan Motorsports and myself and firsthand witnesses as evidence to confirm my story.
* Note ?? I am not the only person that is unhappy with MM??s workmanship.
I will not mention any names.
I wanted to avoid posting this on CEG and settle the matter privately.
But since the matter could not be resolved privately, I feel that CEG should be aware of
my situation and take this into consideration before doing business with Milan Motorsports.
Here is what Milan Motorsports did to my brand new OEM headlights:
(Sorry for the large pics - I wanted everyone to see how bad the lights have been damaged)
More pictures of Milan Motorsports' workmanship
I believe Pete was being nice when he said the clear up after a few days, because I personally have never seen them clear. 
I was all stoked to see them and the first thing I thought, and almost said, was he could put gold fish in his headlights with as much water that was in there.
There's an Italian city called like this...
