Ford's new 3.5L......265 horsies!!!

Originally posted by Beans:

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Tough beating the firewall back getting it in.

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

Yeah, that battle's been fought here already. SEARCH!

Originally posted by Anm8:
Sounds good to me! Not that I can afford a new engine right now...but its finally coming out! Annnnnd, they said its the same size as the old 3.0...which...may mean that it could fit into our older contours.....maybe! They also mentioned that the engine was designed for the future of turbo charging and direct injection....Hopefully things get exciting for Ford!!

http://www.blueovalnews.com/index.php?categoryid=12&p2_articleid=334

Good luck swapping that with our PCM...

Congrats to Ford for producing an engine that is 4-5 years too late. Too many companies already been there done that.

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

yeah and they're also in cars that are alot more expensive too.

Originally posted by Anm8:
Hopefully things get exciting for Ford!!

You mean hopefully Ford's cars will stay alive. Don't get me wrong, this engine is good, but its way late and considering the complete morons running Ford, they will probally find a way to screw this up like they do most everything else.

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

... in a sportscar. You might as well be looking at the Noble M12 and say "the Ford Duratec30 has 350hp". It does, in that application.

You've got to compare application to application. The engine will debut in a Crossover, one very similar to the Murano. And what does the VQ35 do in that application? Only 245hp, putting the Duratec 20hp over it.

It will also debut in the MKZ, which would be best-compared to Nissan's Maxima. And what is the VQ rated at in that application? Just 255hp, 10hp shy of the Duratec35.

If and when the Duratec35 is put into cars similar to the 350Z and the G35 you can be damned sure that it will also be surpassing the VQ35 in those applications.

I can see a 35 in a Fusion or Milan...

Add a turbo or two to the all wheel drive version & you've got a real screamer. Even the big 500 with CVT & all wheel drive & turbo or S/C would MOVE.

A 35 in a Contour... If the firing sequence is similar to the Duratec 30, why not?

Owned

Originally posted by TGO:

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

yeah and they're also in cars that are alot more expensive too.

i dont think a altima 3.5 is more expensive than a 500

Originally posted by TourDeForce:
I can see a 35 in a Fusion..

Fusion SVT 3.5l

Thats sounds pretty damn good to me!

Originally posted by Beans:

Originally posted by TourDeForce:
I can see a 35 in a Fusion..

Fusion SVT 3.5l

Thats sounds pretty damn good to me!

but... SVT is dead....

but....not according to the latest...

once again the story has changed and supposedly SVT is not dead. They just might have a slightly different future philosophy. Who knows till they actually do put something else out.

for example see this article

Some of you guys need to put down the Ford Kool-Aid. You're off popping bottles of Moet because Ford catches up with the competition. With their constantly shrinking marketshare they need to do something besides play catch-up.

Originally posted by kipsvt98:
Congrats to Ford for producing an engine that is 4-5 years too late. Too many companies already been there done that.

sadly GM hasnt done it yet.... Friggan 3800 hasnt changed pretty much at all since it first started.

The Duratec 35 is more than just catch up, even if it is late to the party.

However, I do agree that Ford needs to be playing this game more aggressively.

Originally posted by cuda06:
for example see this article

SVT is gone, dead, kaput. Get over it. Talk to a number of FMC employees or ex-employees. The main players are gone. It is done. When/if it comes back, that's a different story.

Originally posted by AliasJerkâ�??¢:

Originally posted by kipsvt98:
Congrats to Ford for producing an engine that is 4-5 years too late. Too many companies already been there done that.

sadly GM hasnt done it yet.... Friggan 3800 hasnt changed pretty much at all since it first started.

Jared, the 3800 has been "refined" over the past 20 years, its not in its "Series III" stage. Its been blown since 92' going from 205, 225, 240, 260 hp with much more left in there to find

You don't mess with perfection, period!

I see the big Volvo is getting the Yamaha V8 with about 315 hp, damn, it would be nice to see a perf version of the 500/Montego, wouldn't it

It's far from perfection. It needs forced induction to keep up with naturally aspirated competitors, and even in that guise cannot compete in economy and refinement. GM has a horrible penchant in the last 20 years or so for pushing antiquated technologies as far as they can go instead of pushing themselves ahead with new ones.

Originally posted by Pete D:
Some of you guys need to put down the Ford Kool-Aid. You're off popping bottles of Moet because Ford catches up with the competition. With their constantly shrinking marketshare they need to do something besides play catch-up.

I suggest you read up on the Duratec35 before assuming it's "just playing catch-up". It's at least one full generation above what Nissan and Toyota have on market. You can't just look at the horsepower number and conclude it's on-par with the competition.

It's been designed with every conceivable upgrade in mind right from the start. It's designed for higher-compression applications than other motors on the market and specifically designed for future addition of direct-injection and forced induction, and does it while being on the capable of meeting the most stringent of foreseeable emissions requirements. The addition of direct-injection alone (which Ford is getting experience in via Mazda right now) will make it 300+hp engine at no cost to Ford whatsoever. And, what's more, it can produce it for cheaper than the competition can produce theirs.

It's got all the features that the competition is designing into their future motors now. It's not power that matters as much anymore, 300hp in a FWD sedan is plenty, particularly when the market for large motors in smaller cars is having the bottom fall out of it. The future isn't besting in power. It's delivering that power efficiently. What matters now is V6 motors that are highly configurable for particular applications, are good at both medium- and high-power applications and, more importantly, use modern technology to deliver that power at minimal fuel consumption and emissions.

It's a V6 that will make Ford capable of roughly the same thing that Nissan did -- a common motor that can cover virtually the entire lineup. Except Ford is using a better motor to do it with. Nissan was forced to start with a very capable motor, but it's truck-based roots become glaringly obvious in its' high-power applications. It's not quite the ideal motor to use in both sedans and sports cars.

Originally posted by sigma:

I suggest you read up on the Duratec35 before assuming it's "just playing catch-up". It's at least one full generation above what Nissan and Toyota have on market. You can't just look at the horsepower number and conclude it's on-par with the competition.

It's been designed with every conceivable upgrade in mind right from the start. It's designed for higher-compression applications than other motors on the market and specifically designed for future addition of direct-injection and forced induction, and does it while being on the capable of meeting the most stringent of foreseeable emissions requirements. The addition of direct-injection alone (which Ford is getting experience in via Mazda right now) will make it 300+hp engine at no cost to Ford whatsoever.

It's got all the features that the competition is designing into their future motors now. It's not power that matters as much anymore, 300hp in a FWD sedan is plenty, particularly when the market for large motors in smaller cars is having the bottom fall out of it. The future isn't besting in power. It's delivering that power efficiently. What matters now is V6 motors that are highly configurable for particular applications, are good at both medium- and high-power applications and, more importantly, use modern technology to deliver that power at minimal fuel consumption and emissions.

It's a V6 that will make Ford capable of roughly the same thing that Nissan did -- a common motor that can cover virtually the entire lineup. Except Ford is using a better motor to do it with. Nissan was forced to start with a very capable motor, but it's truck-based roots become glaringly obvious in its' high-power applications. It's not quite the ideal motor to use in both sedans and sports cars.

I have done a fair amount of reading (as oddly enough I am involved in a similar discussion over on escape-central).

They said that it is designed for adding, direct injection, turbo-charging, hyrbridization and other technologies down the road. Yet, all of those techs are here today (and some, like turbos have been around a long time). IMO, if they wanted to make a big splash they should have put some of those things in the engine NOW.

AFAIK, Ford's market share is still slipping and this isn't going to bring many customers too them. Sure people might end up getting a Freestyle or something with the new engine (because it isn't underpowered any more) but they won't be stealing any competition from the Japanese (and now Korean) name plates, which is what they NEED to do.

Originally posted by Pete D:
Some of you guys need to put down the Ford Kool-Aid. You're off popping bottles of Moet because Ford catches up with the competition. With their constantly shrinking marketshare they need to do something besides play catch-up.

So you are saying the duratec 2.5L from 1995 that was 5-10 hp higher than its nearest competitor was a come from behind?
THe 3.0 has been making 200/200 for 10 years already! lol
In basic hybrid SVT cam form they routinely set down 210+ as much as 220wheelHP. That's 260+ crank HP out of a 3.0L engine!!

How does your nissan 3.5 compare to that? About the same with an extra .5L displacement. All things considered the 3.0L conversion with cams exhaust and tuning is about as efficient as the 3.5L in the 350z producing less power but not by a lot and definitely expected with the half liter smaller engine.

So its all relative.

Originally posted by sigma:
Nissan was forced to start with a very capable motor, but it's truck-based roots become glaringly obvious in its' high-power applications. It's not quite the ideal motor to use in both sedans and sports cars.

What truck motor is that? The VQ started out in cars long before it was used in any trucks or SUV's.

The Durtech was ahead in 1995, some forget.

And HP is not the 'be all, end all' measure of a motor.
How about real world stuff like: emissions, MPG [$1 a gallon is gone forever boys], durability longevity?

Just because the CSVT [or SVTC to some purists] was canned, doesn't mean SVT is dead. Henry Ford the 1st is dead, so does that mean Ford Mo Co is also dead?

Originally posted by warmonger:
How does your nissan 3.5 compare to that? About the same with an extra .5L displacement. All things considered the 3.0L conversion with cams exhaust and tuning is about as efficient as the 3.5L in the 350z producing less power but not by a lot and definitely expected with the half liter smaller engine.

So its all relative.

The VQ35DE rev-up engine with the new cams is dyno'ing over 250rwhp in the 06 350Z's bone stock. Add Nismo cams, intake, and exhaust (similar to the scenario you outlined for the 3.0L Duratec) and the numbers only go higher. And MANY people have tuned the VQ30DE engines well beyond any Duratec engine without having to replace stock internals.

As a former SVTC owner, I loved the Duratec engine, but I wouldn't put in the same class as Nissan's award winning V6 lineup for 10 years running. Just my .02.

And in short order the next gen Nissan V6 will be out, and it'll trump the competition once again...

Originally posted by Y2KGreenSE:
Just because the CSVT [or SVTC to some purists] was canned, doesn't mean SVT is dead.

Dude. Where have you been? SVT IS DEAD.

Though Ford will still have some performance cars.

Originally posted by Pete D:

AFAIK, Ford's market share is still slipping and this isn't going to bring many customers too them. Sure people might end up getting a Freestyle or something with the new engine (because it isn't underpowered any more) but they won't be stealing any competition from the Japanese (and now Korean) name plates, which is what they NEED to do.

And you think its high powered engines and turbos that are winning the Japanese a higher market share?

NOT. Those are low volume niche vehicles.
It is the trucks and commuter cars that the Japanese are winning at, mainly through higher quality, reliability, and resale value...or at least the perception of that.

They are still riding high on their reputation from the 80s and 90s though in reality they are now suffering from some of the same stinging recalls and quality issues that the big three have been going through for years.
Witness the latest string of recalls and Toyota executives that are under investigation right now.

I really think that Ford isn't producing vehicles that are behind the competition, they aren't. The vehicles are reliable and high quality. It is the American Mindset and impression of quality from the 70s and 80s that still persists and is driving a lot of present day attitudes....which directly affects sales.

Think about it, you buy a new Ford and you get one problem and you think "Hell, poor quality american car I shoulda bought a Japanese car, this is the first sign of a lemon"

You buy a Japanese car and get one problem and think " Oh well, they aren't perfect and this is a minor issue, probably the only problem I'll have on this HIGH QUALITY Japanese car, man I'm glad I didn't buy a Ford as it would be so much worse"

In effect the attitude will now cause the person to slam the american car on initial quality surveys yet with the japanese car they will minimize the problem to defend their purchase of the higher quality car.

So there is so much more going on in this issue of Technological superiority and quality versus the Perception of quality or advantage.

Originally posted by cjbaldw:

Originally posted by warmonger:
How does your nissan 3.5 compare to that? About the same with an extra .5L displacement. All things considered the 3.0L conversion with cams exhaust and tuning is about as efficient as the 3.5L in the 350z producing less power but not by a lot and definitely expected with the half liter smaller engine.

So its all relative.

The VQ35DE rev-up engine with the new cams is dyno'ing over 250rwhp in the 06 350Z's bone stock. Add Nismo cams, intake, and exhaust (similar to the scenario you outlined for the 3.0L Duratec) and the numbers only go higher. And MANY people have tuned the VQ30DE engines well beyond any Duratec engine without having to replace stock internals.

As a former SVTC owner, I loved the Duratec engine, but I wouldn't put in the same class as Nissan's award winning V6 lineup for 10 years running. Just my .02. And in short order the next gen Nissan V6 will be out, and it'll trump the competition once again...

You joker, I tuned my STOCK Block duratec with stock internals to well above any normal engine and at least to levels as high or higher than any stock nissan engine can handle. I won't say its better but it isn't inferior by any means. The SVT 2.5L engine was award winning in the years 10 best engines in those short three years it was made.
It was making 200HP out of a 2.5L when nissan was making 222HP out of a 3.0L.

You're talking about a 3.5L in their top of the line sports car dynoing what, only 15HP more than some of our home-built enthusiast engines?

Go smoke some more of that Nissan tailpipe. lol
If Ford would make available some higher performance cams through their motorsports division then things might be even more dramatically in the our favor.
Instead we have to rob parts from commuter cars to NEARLY equal the motor output of a Nissan sports car motor.

Imagine if we had some race designed cams.....

And have you ever compared the dyno of a modifed 3L with the nissan 3.5L in the Altima/Maxima? The Duratec with SVT cams is so much broader and flatter.

The only problem is the American product needs to improve it's look/touch/feel. The Fusion's interior looks and feels somewhat less substantial than the Mazda6, for example. The platform also suffers from a lack of differentiation between the Fusion and Milan. The Zephyr is a story for another time.

Quote:

They said that it is designed for adding, direct injection, turbo-charging, hyrbridization and other technologies down the road. Yet, all of those techs are here today (and some, like turbos have been around a long time). IMO, if they wanted to make a big splash they should have put some of those things in the engine NOW.

Engines have to last 8-10 years at a minimum. You can't go and bring out everything you've got right out of the starting gate.

Ford isn't hurting at all for a high-powered engine. It's got more high-powered motors it can whip out if need be than anyone short of the General. It's hurting for a mid-ranged 230-260hp V6, which is precisely what the Duratec35 is designed to fill.

As time marches on, they'll bring out the more complicated stuff. Just like Nissan moved the VQ35 from 240hp to 300hp over time.

Aside from giving yourself room to grow, bringing out the big engineering only increases the odds of problems. You don't want to give your brand-new multi-billion dollar motor a bad reputation because you came out the gate with a twin-turbocharged, direct-injectection motor that had some teething issues. Look what the 13B-REW used in the 1993+ RX-7 did for the reputation of Rotary engines for a perfect example of what a bad version of a motor can do to an entire line of them.

Quote:

AFAIK, Ford's market share is still slipping and this isn't going to bring many customers too them. Sure people might end up getting a Freestyle or something with the new engine (because it isn't underpowered any more) but they won't be stealing any competition from the Japanese (and now Korean) name plates, which is what they NEED to do.

Ford's overall market share is decreasing yes. Because it's truck sales are down 14%. But the all-important car sales are up 7%.

Ford isn't losing ground to the Japanese because it's motors aren't big enough. There are countless reasons why, motors being the least of which. Small cars and small engines are what sells for the Japanese companies. And putting a 300hp motor in a Fusion might sell a couple thousand, but it's not going to sell a quarter-million. For the incredible vast majority of consumers of sedans and crossovers, a V6 only needs to be large enough to provide some confidence-inducing torque, but small enough to provide the fuel efficiency to go with it. Few consumers are wowed by some outrageous high-powered version of family cars or crossovers which is why to this day I have never seen an Altima SE-R on the road, nor do any of my local dealers have any in stock. The demand is virtually nil.

If Ford had a sports coupe that was competing against the 350z then you'd have a point if they were sticking a 265hp motor in it. But, unfortunately, they don't. But in the cars that they are putting the Duratec35 into, it will provide them with more than adequate power for the current market and, in the case of the Edge, what I believe will be class-leading power.

Is that going to "save" Ford? No. Probably not. But sticking a 320hp motor wouldn't help them any more either. All that'd get them is even more people going "Pfft. American companies just don't get it" while they go and buy their 32mpg 260hp Japanese cars.

Originally posted by sigma:

Ford isn't losing ground to the Japanese because it's motors aren't big enough. There are countless reasons why, motors being the least of which. Small cars and small engines are what sells for the Japanese companies. And putting a 300hp motor in a Fusion might sell a couple thousand, but it's not going to sell a quarter-million. For the incredible vast majority of consumers of sedans and crossovers, a V6 only needs to be large enough to provide some confidence-inducing torque, but small enough to provide the fuel efficiency to go with it. Few consumers are wowed by some outrageous high-powered version of family cars or crossovers which is why to this day I have never seen an Altima SE-R on the road, nor do any of my local dealers have any in stock. The demand is virtually nil.

If Ford had a sports coupe that was competing against the 350z then you'd have a point if they were sticking a 265hp motor in it. But, unfortunately, they don't. But in the cars that they are putting the Duratec35 into, it will provide them with more than adequate power for the current market and, in the case of the Edge, what I believe will be class-leading power.

Is that going to "save" Ford? No. Probably not. But sticking a 320hp motor wouldn't help them any more either. All that'd get them is even more people going "Pfft. American companies just don't get it" while they go and buy their 32mpg 260hp Japanese cars.

I agree with a lot of this. Ford needs to get their market share back if they wish to succeed in the long run. While making a high HP engine do it, especially in gas-tight times? Doubtful.

My response was more in line with all the people on here (as well as over at E-C) that are ready to bust out a ticket tape parade for this motor, when the fact is it won't make a huge difference. The only possible long term implication I see is lower cost because it is their first engine that is DFSS (Designed for Six Sigma).

Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
It's far from perfection. It needs forced induction to keep up with naturally aspirated competitors, and even in that guise cannot compete in economy and refinement. GM has a horrible penchant in the last 20 years or so for pushing antiquated technologies as far as they can go instead of pushing themselves ahead with new ones.

I agree, they also need to get their act together with their transmissions... My brother works for auto owners insurance, they gave him an 06' Grand prix Base model as a company car, thats all they have are the 04-07 grand prix's Every single one of their fleet cars have had to have their transmissions replaced at about 30K miles. Im not exaturating... EVERY ONE

That scares the hell out of me.... mom has an 05' with 24K miles... And its been shifting hard from park into reverse if you park on an incline.

Originally posted by TGO:

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

yeah and they're also in cars that are alot more expensive too.

not at all..u can find that in an Altima, Maxima, G35 sedan/coupe..FX..alota other models..or u can get a pre-owned and still enjoy the VQ..

Originally posted by cjbaldw:

Originally posted by warmonger:
How does your nissan 3.5 compare to that? About the same with an extra .5L displacement. All things considered the 3.0L conversion with cams exhaust and tuning is about as efficient as the 3.5L in the 350z producing less power but not by a lot and definitely expected with the half liter smaller engine.

So its all relative.

The VQ35DE rev-up engine with the new cams is dyno'ing over 250rwhp in the 06 350Z's bone stock. Add Nismo cams, intake, and exhaust (similar to the scenario you outlined for the 3.0L Duratec) and the numbers only go higher. And MANY people have tuned the VQ30DE engines well beyond any Duratec engine without having to replace stock internals.

As a former SVTC owner, I loved the Duratec engine, but I wouldn't put in the same class as Nissan's award winning V6 lineup for 10 years running. Just my .02. And in short order the next gen Nissan V6 will be out, and it'll trump the competition once again...

I wouldn't say ANY Duratec, don't forget Aston Martin 6.0l v12's are duratec's. But now I'm just being picky....sorry.

Originally posted by warmonger:
You joker, I tuned my STOCK Block duratec with stock internals to well above any normal engine and at least to levels as high or higher than any stock nissan engine can handle.

So your stock Duratec engine can handle over 400whp with no problem right? Because there are MANY turbo'd VQ30DE engines in that range with stock internals, some as high as 500whp.

Quote:

I won't say its better but it isn't inferior by any means. The SVT 2.5L engine was award winning in the years 10 best engines in those short three years it was made.
It was making 200HP out of a 2.5L when nissan was making 222HP out of a 3.0L.

Like I said, I loved my SVTC, it had a great engine that had oil starvation problems from the outset due to a bad design of the oil pan and oil return system.

Luckily mine went for 88k miles with zero internal problems, many others have no been so fortunate on this site.

Quote:

You're talking about a 3.5L in their top of the line sports car dynoing what, only 15HP more than some of our home-built enthusiast engines?

Yep, with a flatter torque curve and bone stock, not one modification as compared to your enthusiast modified engine. There are many, MANY, single and twin turbo VQ35DE's marching around now with anywher from 400rwhp to over 500rwhp in 350's with stock internals. Guys with built VQ35De's are running 700+rwhp now on TT systems. How many Duratecs are there on this site or any other vehicle site that uses a Duratec that have this much power and are still a daily driver? There are many 06 350's with mods that are closing in on 300+rwhp with bolt-on mods also.

Quote:

Go smoke some more of that Nissan tailpipe. lol
If Ford would make available some higher performance cams through their motorsports division then things might be even more dramatically in the our favor.
Instead we have to rob parts from commuter cars to NEARLY equal the motor output of a Nissan sports car motor. Imagine if we had some race designed cams.....

And have you ever compared the dyno of a modifed 3L with the nissan 3.5L in the Altima/Maxima? The Duratec with SVT cams is so much broader and flatter.

Yeah OK, now who's smoking crack? Show me the dyno graphs...and I'm not a Nissan fan by any stretch, this is the 1st Nissan I've owned. I've owned a variety of different model cars and I can appreciate each one of them for what they are. I never said Nissan didn't have it's weak points or problems, but I would never put the Duratec engine in the same class as the VQ series Nissan engines. If you haven't noticed, the Ward's 10 best engines does not have the Duratec and hasn't had the Duratec engine on the list for several years now, but I sure do still see the VQ series engine on there, wonder why that is?

Originally posted by cjbaldw:

Originally posted by warmonger:
You joker, I tuned my STOCK Block duratec with stock internals to well above any normal engine and at least to levels as high or higher than any stock nissan engine can handle.

So your stock Duratec engine can handle over 400whp with no problem right? Because there are MANY turbo'd VQ30DE engines in that range with stock internals, some as high as 500whp.

How many people are out there making turbo duratechs.. how many are making turbo "anything japenese because its like so sweet" yes they've seen higher numbers but they have a lot more time, money, and labor going into such applications

Quote:

I won't say its better but it isn't inferior by any means. The SVT 2.5L engine was award winning in the years 10 best engines in those short three years it was made.
It was making 200HP out of a 2.5L when nissan was making 222HP out of a 3.0L.

Quote:

Like I said, I loved my SVTC, it had a great engine that had oil starvation problems from the outset due to a bad design of the oil pan and oil return system. Luckily mine went for 88k miles with zero internal problems, many others have no been so fortunate on this site.

my car has 140,000 no problems and i drive it hard every single day, ive owned it since 98k .. so dont make it sound like every motor was a pile (i will admit there was an initial design flaw but again as warmonger stated people's perception of such issues are so biased against american automakers)

Quote:

You're talking about a 3.5L in their top of the line sports car dynoing what, only 15HP more than some of our home-built enthusiast engines?

if this motor is sooo0o0o0ooo perfect.. why did noble choose the duratech for the M12.

Quote:

Go smoke some more of that Nissan tailpipe. lol
If Ford would make available some higher performance cams through their motorsports division then things might be even more dramatically in the our favor.
Instead we have to rob parts from commuter cars to NEARLY equal the motor output of a Nissan sports car motor. Imagine if we had some race designed cams.....

And have you ever compared the dyno of a modifed 3L with the nissan 3.5L in the Altima/Maxima? The Duratec with SVT cams is so much broader and flatter.

10 best lists are created by the stem of the perception issues of poor quality american cars, the automotive media. In their eyes, if it isnt foreign it is crap. Yes there was a time not to long ago that being lazy left the big 3 significantly behind japanese cars in quality issues.. but at that time all jap cars were UGLY econoboxes. Still to this day i feel they rule that specific marketplace. If you are an english teacher who needs a vehicle to get her to class and the library, then go buy a toyota corolla as there is very strong argument this is the best car in this situation. But once you step outside of that realm, where cars have an excitement to them, i think every company is on a fairly level playing field minus the negative opinions people hold on american cars

after all of this my main point is simply this. 98% of the members on this site are ford enthusiasts. We might buy a non ford in our lives, but we don't think ford's are crap. I know you bought a nissan and now that brand is god to you, but the rest of us dont share that point of view and your arguments aren't fact based enough to win this arguement.

personally i think you car is ugly. ha!

Originally posted by cjbaldw:
Quote:

You're talking about a 3.5L in their top of the line sports car dynoing what, only 15HP more than some of our home-built enthusiast engines?

Yep, with a flatter torque curve and bone stock, not one modification as compared to your enthusiast modified engine. There are many, MANY, single and twin turbo VQ35DE's marching around now with anywher from 400rwhp to over 500rwhp in 350's with stock internals. Guys with built VQ35De's are running 700+rwhp now on TT systems. How many Duratecs are there on this site or any other vehicle site that uses a Duratec that have this much power and are still a daily driver? There are many 06 350's with mods that are closing in on 300+rwhp with bolt-on mods also.

Noble M-12, M-400 could be used as a dd.

Originally posted by Stylin55_oh:
If you are an english teacher who needs a vehicle to get her to class and the library, then go buy a toyota corolla as there is very strong argument this is the best car in this situation. But once you step outside of that realm, where cars have an excitement to them, i think every company is on a fairly level playing field minus the negative opinions people hold on american cars.

This brought to mind the Mondeo vs. Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, S/C Mercedes C-230, BMW 3-series sport sedan comparo that Top Gear did.

"That's it then. The Ford is the fastest."

Originally posted by Stylin55_oh:
10 best lists are created by the stem of the perception issues of poor quality american cars, the automotive media. In their eyes, if it isnt foreign it is crap.

BS, you are full of crap son. I've probably owned more cars than the number of years you've lived on this earth, or close to it. Let's take a look at how biased the 2005 engine list was shall we?

The Ward's 10 Best Engines for 2005: (Engine and tested vehicle)
* Audi AG FSI 3.2L DOHC V-6 (Audi A6)
* Audi AG 4.2L DOHC V-8 (Audi S4)
* DaimlerChrysler AG 5.7L Hemi Magnum OHV V-8 (Chrysler 300C)
* DaimlerChrysler AG Mercedes-Benz 3.2L DOHC I-6 CDI Turbodiesel
(Mercedes E320 CDI)
* Ford Motor Co. 4.6L SOHC V-8 (Ford Mustang GT)
* General Motors Corp. Vortec 4.2L DOHC I-6 (Chevrolet TrailBlazer)
* Honda Motor Co. Ltd. 3L SOHC V-6 IMA Hybrid (Honda Accord Hybrid)
* Honda Motor Co. Ltd. Acura 3.5L SOHC V-6 (Acura RL)
* Mazda Motor Corp. 1.3L Renesis rotary (Mazda RX-8)
* Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. 3.5L DOHC V-6 (Infiniti G35 Coupe)

So, let's see now, three out of ten are American designed engines, one from Ford (the modular V8), one from GM (I6), and one from Chrysler (the Hemi). Three are from European manufacturers, two from Audi, one from Mercedes, and four are from Japan, two of which are Honda, one from Nissan, and one from Mazda for it's rotary engine design. How exactly is that biased, it is almost equally weighted across three continents. Nice try, but I'm not buying your argument because it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Quote:

Yes there was a time not to long ago that being lazy left the big 3 significantly behind japanese cars in quality issues.. but at that time all jap cars were UGLY econoboxes. Still to this day i feel they rule that specific marketplace.

Nah, the Korean's own the econobox marketplace nowadays, haven't you noticed.

The Japs are increasing their market share in the bread and butter family sedan and light truck marketplace, which is why the big three are hurting so much now, because that's where they made most of their money over the past 20 years, especially with cheap gas in the SUV segment which is dying off quickly now and the Big 3 are being caught with their pants down. When gas was cheap the big 3 had control of the light truck marketplace solidly, but that is changing due to higher energy prices.

Quote:

If you are an english teacher who needs a vehicle to get her to class and the library, then go buy a toyota corolla as there is very strong argument this is the best car in this situation. But once you step outside of that realm, where cars have an excitement to them, i think every company is on a fairly level playing field minus the negative opinions people hold on american cars.

I agree that each manufacturer has niche market cars that appeal to a small number of people that provide driving excitement and decent performance. However when it comes to selling 250,000 cars in larger market segments, the big 3 just can't seem to get it right lately.

Quote:

after all of this my main point is simply this. 98% of the members on this site are ford enthusiasts. We might buy a non ford in our lives, but we don't think ford's are crap. I know you bought a nissan and now that brand is god to you, but the rest of us dont share that point of view and your arguments aren't fact based enough to win this arguement.

Yeah, OK, my Nissan is god to me. Where did I say that exactly? Did I not say that this is the 1st Nissan I've owned? The fact is the Nissan I currently own is a half decent car, but it's not all that. It's a grocery getter family sedan, just like my SVTC was. I've owned Mazda's (MX6 LS and MX3), Fords (Escort Pony, Windstar, and SVTC), GM's (Chevy Venture - soon to be a GMC Acadia probably, Camaro SS), Chryslers (Dodge Stratus, Dodge Caravan, Acclaim), Toyotas (Corolla and Camry), Hondas (Prelude and Accord), Subaru (GL), Nissan (Altima) and a few others.

Quote:

personally i think you car is ugly. ha!

Wanna race? You'll only see the taillights I promise.

there is no way im replying to all of that .. its just too long.

i did know the list of the top 10. but i was simply stating i dont really listen to magazines for what is good and what isnt because they are biased media and i dont care what anyone else says. I read a 9 page article on toyota becoming number 2 and closing in on GM from a nonbiased stand point. It was a very entertaining read and covered everything thats been covered here. it strongly pushed the media's negative influence on american cars tho.

You are completely correct Korean cars now have the economy market but will be in heavy competition with china. these cars will be so cheap they will become throw away items like a dvd player.

My lord you've owned a lot of cars. Which was your favorite, just out of curiousity.

honestly i like your car, i just dont dig the styling all that much.

*** news on the 3.5 ***
i was told by a ford PR guy that they want to put it in the zephyr but not the milan and fusion to give the lincoln exclusivity.

Originally posted by Stylin55_oh:

*** news on the 3.5 ***
i was told by a ford PR guy that they want to put it in the zephyr but not the milan and fusion to give the lincoln exclusivity.

If they're smart, they'll put it in the Lincoln as standard equipment, but charge a premium price to install it in a Ford or Mercury. They can pad their accounts a bit that way.

The Duratec35 is slated to go into the Fusion and Milan at a later date. Production has to ramp up on it and any issues need to be worked out of it. You don't stick a brand new engine in every car across your entire lineup at the same time. That's only asking for problems. So, for now, it'll start it's life in the MKZ (the Zephyr), the MKX, and the Edge. The Five Hundred and its' sister-cars will be getting it the following year with their redesign. It will probably take until the first refresh of the Fusion, in the 2009MY for the Duratec35 to make its' way there.

2007: Edge, MKZ, MKX
2008: Five Hundred, Freestyle, Montego, Mazda6, CX-9 (and Ford's equivalent)
2009: Fusion, Milan

With talk of Cleveland also producing the Duratec35, the schedule for the Five Hundred/Montego/Freestyle might be pushed up to a 1/2-year update, what with Ford being very explicit about its' desire to upgrade that line with a visual and power upgrade in a hurry. I doubt that'd push the timetable up on the Fusion though, since I don't know if they'd stick the new engine in there just before a revision was due.

Originally posted by Stylin55_oh:
My lord you've owned a lot of cars. Which was your favorite, just out of curiousity.

honestly i like your car, i just dont dig the styling all that much.

*** news on the 3.5 ***
i was told by a ford PR guy that they want to put it in the zephyr but not the milan and fusion to give the lincoln exclusivity.

Favorite? I'm not really a favorites kind of guy, I appreciate each one for different reasons. My SVTC was a daily driver, light mods, just like my Alty SE-R. I lease my daily drivers, that way I get a new one every few years and it's always under warranty. The MX-6 LS was a nice ride and I really like the styling of the Mazda, the V6 was great as well. The SVTC was my foray into the four door grocery getter market, and was a fun car to drive, probably more balanced than the SE-R, and smaller. I needed more back seat room hence the Altima. I've got about two more years with the Altima and then who knows, though I've always like the G35 coupes and the new 2007 sedan looks much better than the current G35 sedan does, so that might be where I'm headed for my daily driver in 2008 if I still need four doors. It's a ways off so it's hard to say really.

The SS Camaro was a weekend/mod car and I sold it with 452rwhp after doing a complete h/c package and complete suspension setup and so forth. That was a nice ride and a real beast, but I could never tolerate it as a daily driver. Right now my priority is saving for retirement and for my kid's educations, so having a fun car really isn't in the cards for a few years at least.

I'm all over the place in so far as what I'd consider for a fun car really. I love the new Z06 though!

Originally posted by AliasJerkâ�??¢:
I agree, they also need to get their act together with their transmissions... My brother works for auto owners insurance, they gave him an 06' Grand prix Base model as a company car, thats all they have are the 04-07 grand prix's Every single one of their fleet cars have had to have their transmissions replaced at about 30K miles. Im not exaturating... EVERY ONE

That scares the hell out of me.... mom has an 05' with 24K miles... And its been shifting hard from park into reverse if you park on an incline.

Not to hijack the thread, but as a recent renter of a new Grand Prix, it doesn't surprise me much that their ATX's are failing at an early age. Watching the ATF temperature on the Driver Information Center soar to 210 degrees F or more during an easy drive on I-20 doesn't make me think they'll be durable transmissions.

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by TGO:

Originally posted by �?�?�?��?¯�?¬�?¬�?º:

Originally posted by Beans:
man, you people are so mean

i couldnt imagine a bigger engine than a 3.0 in a contour, hell the 2.5 is big..

Someone here will do it tho...

way under powered..the Nissan VQ 3.5 is 270hp - 300hp..

yeah and they're also in cars that are alot more expensive too.

not at all..u can find that in an Altima, Maxima, G35 sedan/coupe..FX..alota other models..or u can get a pre-owned and still enjoy the VQ..

ok..the altima and maxima are both 265hp no? I dunno about the murano.

what cars are making 300hp without a 350z, or infiniti badge on them??

EDIT: and the last time i checked the maxima and the SER altima were more expensive than a comparable ford car.

Wow, Ford is FINALLY catching up to the competition. The 500 might actually be tolerable now!

Originally posted by cjbaldw:
So your stock Duratec engine can handle over 400whp with no problem right? Because there are MANY turbo'd VQ30DE engines in that range with stock internals, some as high as 500whp.

Yes, the engine can handle more than that as evidenced by a dd on this very site. It is just the whole fwd thing that puts a slight kink in the recipe.

Originally posted by ABCarr:

Originally posted by AliasJerkâ�??¢:
I agree, they also need to get their act together with their transmissions... My brother works for auto owners insurance, they gave him an 06' Grand prix Base model as a company car, thats all they have are the 04-07 grand prix's Every single one of their fleet cars have had to have their transmissions replaced at about 30K miles. Im not exaturating... EVERY ONE

That scares the hell out of me.... mom has an 05' with 24K miles... And its been shifting hard from park into reverse if you park on an incline.

Not to hijack the thread, but as a recent renter of a new Grand Prix, it doesn't surprise me much that their ATX's are failing at an early age. Watching the ATF temperature on the Driver Information Center soar to 210 degrees F or more during an easy drive on I-20 doesn't make me think they'll be durable transmissions.

my mom's rarely hits 200 degrees, only on the hottest days during road trips... But yes it does pass 200 degrees sometimes. My guess is the trannie in her car will give out at about... 37K miles, right after the warrenty expires

Originally posted by MadMerc97:
Wow, Ford is FINALLY catching up to the competition. The 500 might actually be tolerable now!

Still needs a manual mated to something other than a 4 banger.

Originally posted by Beowulf:

Originally posted by MadMerc97:
Wow, Ford is FINALLY catching up to the competition. The 500 might actually be tolerable now!

Still needs a manual mated to something other than a 4 banger.

Wrong car.

Damn my eyes. I swear that it said "Fusion"

Yeah, the 500 could use the help too.

Where a manual is not proper for most variants of the Five Hundred, it would be a nice offering on a Montego RS. However, the most drastic need for the pair is a serious dose of style inside and out. Whether you say it looks like the last-gen Audi A6 or the 1986-1991 Taurus, the car was outdated and dowdy from the drawing board.

"Bold Moves" needs to be more than a slogan. Ford actually has to make them. (and what is up with picking that nasty American Idol flop as a spokesperson :barf:)

Maybe its just my age (36) or being a little on the conservative side, but I for one really like the Montego the way it is right now. IMO its a sharp car with style, inside and out

My mother in law has a Freestyle fwd w/ the CVT and IMO, the 3.0L does a good enough job for moving out on the freeway, smooth and responsive. I don't know what all these car mag guys are expecting out of a 200/200 V6 engine

Would more power be better, sure, but when mated to the CVT its fine. When I gave up on trying to get the Mustang last year I seriously considered the Montego Premier w/ AWD and the CSVT....hmmm, wonder what I'd be doing to the car right now

Every car needs a manual transmission.

Damn lazy auto drivers. Might as well ride the bus.

I agree about the mtx, but really, how many people would buy the Montego/500 with a 5 or 6 speed...(besides me

)

I think this would be an excellent choice for the entry level Mustang. Think of what a twin turbo V6 stang would offer to the choice of power trains...

The 4.0L truck engine is long over due, time for the 3.5L! Hopefully it wouldn't drive up the cost too much.

This would definitely make a good SVT versionfor many of their vehicles. (Fusion/500/SUV's).

Like James said, now they need to make more bold moves with the other areas of their vehicles!

Originally posted by XKontour98:
I think this would be an excellent choice for the entry level Mustang. Think of what a twin turbo V6 stang would offer to the choice of power trains...

The 4.0L truck engine is long over due, time for the 3.5L! Hopefully it wouldn't drive up the cost too much.

Don't kill the truck engine in the Stang. I'm hoping for more mods for my Sport Trac!!!

Originally posted by SVTNupe:

Originally posted by XKontour98:
I think this would be an excellent choice for the entry level Mustang. Think of what a twin turbo V6 stang would offer to the choice of power trains...

The 4.0L truck engine is long over due, time for the 3.5L! Hopefully it wouldn't drive up the cost too much.

Don't kill the truck engine in the Stang. I'm hoping for more mods for my Sport Trac!!!

That made my day! The 4.0L needs to die already! Kinda like how the old 3.8 really REALLY needed to die.

Unfortunately, it didn't die. It just became a 3.9L. I'm assuming the 4.2L is the triton from the F-series.

Originally posted by MadMerc97:

That made my day! The 4.0L needs to die already! Kinda like how the old 3.8 really REALLY needed to die.

why? it's probably the most dead reliable motor ford's ever produced.

Maybe because it is completely uncompetitive in the modern car market when compared to engines used in peer vehicles.

what vehicles in the explorer's class significantly more powerful, for the same price?

Just about all of them... and smoother too.

Nissan Pathfinder: 270hp/291tq
Toyota 4Runner: 236hp/266tq
Trailblazer/Envoy: 291hp/277tq

The base Durango and Grand Cherokee match power, but are a bit shy on torque.

Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Maybe because it is completely uncompetitive in the modern car market when compared to engines used in peer vehicles.

i didn't think those had the same interior space...but still, the exploder makes the same torque, and atleast 220hp...i don't see how it's completely uncompetative. and again i stress it's reliability. 16 years and 150k on mine

Actually, 210hp/254tq, it is shy in both areas. It is also has a lot more NVH (Noise/Vibration/Harshness) than the more modern engines in competing models. The competition is putting out more power and torque smoother and more quietly.

I compared mid-size, base model, truck-based SUV's. The Explorer has an advantage in room over some (The Pathfinder, 4Runner, Durango, and extended versions of the GM's also seat 7). The Explorer's accomodations are an advantage, but completely separate from it's outdated engine.

The 35 is still going to come up short when first launched (250ft lbs). I'm definitely for the added horsepower, im just saying i don't think the 4.0 has outlived it's usefullness just yet.

on a side note, i like how wikipedia lists the 6.0l v12 (aston martin) as a duratec. I mean, we know it is technically, but don't expect "normal" people to realise it!

Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Maybe because it is completely uncompetitive in the modern car market when compared to engines used in peer vehicles.

I obviously agree, its definitely NOT refined enough. It's way too harsh. All reviews on the stang mention the harshness and add that as another reason to stick to the V8.

An engine like that does not belong in a sports car. If they want to continue to run in it the Explorers they need to pull some more ponies out of it and greatly reduce its abrasiveness.

Originally posted by XKontour98:

Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
Maybe because it is completely uncompetitive in the modern car market when compared to engines used in peer vehicles.

I obviously agree, its definitely NOT refined enough. It's way too harsh. All reviews on the stang mention the harshness and add that as another reason to stick to the V8.

An engine like that does not belong in a sports car. If they want to continue to run in it the Explorers they need to pull some more ponies out of it and greatly reduce its abrasiveness.

My opinion says that with the idiots running Ford management, the same engine will probally be there for a long time, with little-no changes. But then, I could be wrong.

What I don't understand is why Ford will make an engine that is on par with everything else in the market.....never any ground-breaking/industry leading power. Just enough to keep it competitive.

Originally posted by hectik:
What I don't understand is why Ford will make an engine that is on par with everything else in the market.....never any ground-breaking/industry leading power. Just enough to keep it competitive.

A few years ago they made a Duratec. You should Wiki it. One of the most power per liter in it's day. They also make these DOHC V8's for Mustangs that are small displacement and make great power as well.

Originally posted by hectik:
What I don't understand is why Ford will make an engine that is on par with everything else in the market.....never any ground-breaking/industry leading power. Just enough to keep it competitive.

Not the case with the Mustang. 500 HP V-8 is kinda earth shattering to me. There weren't many of those around when Ford announced it.

Seems the formula for success is a bit more complex than most think. They try to overcome the reliability perceptions of American cars, so they produce average engines that last a long time. Keeping a Hi-po power plant together is a bit more complicated, therefore reliability issues, material or design weaknesses will surface sooner in the engine life.

It's a balancing act, I recon. Best way to deal with it is to offer up the typical car, establish the dependability, then offer an engine option for more power (in limited numbers) to keep the enthusiast happy. Sorta, kinda the direction they're heading it looks like...

Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Not the case with the Mustang. 500 HP V-8 is kinda earth shattering to me. There weren't many of those around when Ford announced it.

I saw my first GT500 yesterday, in fact. Took a second to realize what it was...and it wasn't even red.

Originally posted by todras:

Originally posted by hectik:
What I don't understand is why Ford will make an engine that is on par with everything else in the market.....never any ground-breaking/industry leading power. Just enough to keep it competitive.

A few years ago they made a Duratec. You should Wiki it. One of the most power per liter in it's day. They also make these DOHC V8's for Mustangs that are small displacement and make great power as well.

Are you kidding? The Type-R made 197 HP (SVT made 195)out of a four banger. Not to mention the GSR made 170 HP (regular Duratec made 170) out of its 1.8L. Ford not to mention was still making a HUGE 130 HP out of it's 2 liters.

the svt duratec still did hold the record for a couple of years.

DO YOU RESEARCH!!! [sorry had to say it

]

Originally posted by TGO:
the svt duratec still did hold the record for a couple of years.

DO YOU RESEARCH!!! [sorry had to say it ]

In what? Power per liter? Not exactly. Even excluding high end stuff like Ferraris and things with FI the SVT Duratec wasn't exactly the pinacle of power/l although it was pretty good.

BMW M3 (E30) 83.6 hp/l
BMW M3 (E36) 80 hp/l
BMW M5 (E39) 80.4 hp/l
Audi S8 85.7 hp/l
Toyota Celica GT-S 100hp/l
As well as the previously mentioned Hondas and Acuras.

Not to say the SVT Duratec was a bad engine, or even that its output was low, but it wasn't a groundbreaker per se.

Originally posted by TourDeForce:

Seems the formula for success is a bit more complex than most think. They try to overcome the reliability perceptions of American cars, so they produce average engines that last a long time. Keeping a Hi-po power plant together is a bit more complicated, therefore reliability issues, material or design weaknesses will surface sooner in the engine life.

It's a balancing act, I recon. Best way to deal with it is to offer up the typical car, establish the dependability, then offer an engine option for more power (in limited numbers) to keep the enthusiast happy. Sorta, kinda the direction they're heading it looks like...

That's not the way you win, though. You win by dreaming big and pulling it off. Balancing acts won't get you ahead, that's playing not to lose instead of playing to win.

Going back to the mention of available engines ... I've never understood why there is no real selection of engine/transmission combos.

If you take a look at Ford UK, you will see the wealth of engines that are available in each vehicle. This gives the company a very broad range of options which can cover nearly any possibility.
It is beyond me why I cannot select say, a Fusion with manual and Duratec 35 ... and say my wife cannot have an auto with Duratec 30 ... my brother say a Fusion with auto and 2.3l 4 banger ... and my step-son a manual with a tiny but high MPG engine for pootling around town (like 1.6).

Allowing this sort of mix of engine types would surely help to allow Ford to reach the broad consumer base they need to. A smaller engine, like a 1.6 would do wonders with the MPG obsessors, 2.3l for your average city car, 3.0 for those who MUST have a V6, and 3.5 for those after the higher ponies.

Part of it is our excessive government, and the requirements of certifying every major powertrain combination at the cost of the manufacturers...

That may be part of it, James. But most of it is just the margins that are on those vehicles. Flexibility to produce, as well as support, so many possible production combinations is expensive. And cars cost a LOT more there and people buy new ones MUCH less often than we do in the US. So people tend to buy cars exactly like they want them and want the flexibility to have the options they want.

If everyone was willing to pay $45,000 for a Fusion, Ford would be more than happy to let all of us pick from a whole long list of power-/drivetrain combinations because they'd be pocketing a lot more per vehicle in the end.

I guess I don't see why it should be so expensive to do more mix and match options within the same parts bin. The parts are all there already. I think margins would naturally improve with more selection. I see more people do without a feature or two than swallow a package of things they don't want. Especially because it seems more that the people who care about cars the most are the ones the least appreciated.

Maybe that needs to be an emphasis in production technology improvements.

Originally posted by sigma:
That may be part of it, James. But most of it is just the margins that are on those vehicles. Flexibility to produce, as well as support, so many possible production combinations is expensive. And cars cost a LOT more there and people buy new ones MUCH less often than we do in the US. So people tend to buy cars exactly like they want them and want the flexibility to have the options they want.

If everyone was willing to pay $45,000 for a Fusion, Ford would be more than happy to let all of us pick from a whole long list of power-/drivetrain combinations because they'd be pocketing a lot more per vehicle in the end.

UK car pricing is out of synch with the rest of the world because :

1. They MFG's get away with charging more

and

2. The associated governmental on-costs at the retail level are ridiculous.

Let's remove pricing difference from the equation, or alternatively figure out say the cost of a Focus here to Focus there to get a .x ratio for difference in cost.

Regardless, I am baffled by the true lack of choice that we as consumers are given in a given product. I don't want to be spoon-fed my car setup, I want a real choice. Unfortunately to do that I have to look at other brands and models, rather than just having an option.
Example: I want good MPG, I'll take a Honda. I want something practical, I'll maybe go Toyota. I want something faster, probably a Nissan.
All those choices could be configured into a brand by allowing more choice and real options other than just seat colour and cloth or leather....

The 1978 Thunderbird offered 5 colors of moonroof tint to match the vinyl roof, three engines (302, 351, 400), three seating configurations (solid bench, split bench, buckets) with additional variations. The 1982 Thunderbird had over 10,000 possible configurations.

It's only recently that popular equipment packages which made for money savings changed to very limited configurations where items are only available via packages. It is a shameful step backward.

Originally posted by ZoomZoom Diva:
The 1978 Thunderbird offered 5 colors of moonroof tint to match the vinyl roof, three engines (302, 351, 400), three seating configurations (solid bench, split bench, buckets) with additional variations. The 1982 Thunderbird had over 10,000 possible configurations.

Which is precisely why the Japanese kicked our asses.

The Japanese came over and offered only a couple versions of every model. You had almost no options on top of the version you chose. You got nothing or you got everything and maybe there was a version in between. It vastly lowers costs of production and significantly increases your reliability. Industrial Engineering 101.

The more possible combinations of components the less reliable the end-product. Plain and simple. Not only does it become more and more difficult and expensive to test every possible combination, but the man putting it together will never put 3 different things together as well as if you just gave him one thing to put together. You exponentially increase your problems in the future and you have support personnel, dealer mechanics, that must be trained on an exponentially higher number of power-/drivetrain combinations.

Then there's the biggie -- inventory. Every combination results in an exponential increase in inventory. At any given time there's almost $100 billion in automobile manufacting inventory out there. Increases are not treated lightly because the quantities are never small.

You might think that if you go from 1 to 2 engines it doesn't matter because the total number of engines in your inventory would stay the same you'd just have a smaller number of each. But it doesn't work that way. If you have 1000 engines in inventory with one option you might need 1500 when you have 2 options and 2000 when you have 3 options, just to maintain the same service levels. And with more engines you have more drive trains. And more electrical harnesses. And more ECUs. And numerous other things as well.

And then, for example, you decide you want to make Automatic Climate Control an option on every vehicle instead of just the V6 models. Now you went from a potential option on 30% of your production to a potential option on 100% of your production. Your needed inventories on that component just grew exponentially, by far from than the three times your potentially-equipped vehicles grew. You went from having to hold 1000 ACC units to holding 5000 ACC units, which you now have to purchase, find some place to store, and pay taxes on five times the quantity you did have to. Your cash-to-cash cycle time probably just went down the toilet unless you have very forgiving suppliers willing to absorb those costs themselves.

Oh, and you need a different wiring harness for that component. And it's dependent on your engine harness; an option that you also increased exponentially with the added engine options you wanted. This is why almost all, if not all, Contours came with the Fog Light plugs hanging on them whether their model could even get the lights or not -- it was cheaper and far easier to stick the same harness in every car than to use a different one.

And you do that for dozens or hundreds of different options, increasing the total needed inventory for your one facility by hundreds of millions of dollars overnight. It's a whole lot easier to do than you think.

And then you have to actually put all these cars together in a just-in-time manufacturing environment so that, when an in-process car gets to it's workstation the needed part is already there waiting for it. A part that was different from the last and will be different from the next, which will be different from the next dependent on whatever options and exact combination of options that particular car was ordered with. The more options you have, the harder and harder it is to guarantee that the needed component arrives at the needed workstation precisely when it is needed.

Quote:

UK car pricing is out of synch with the rest of the world because :

1. They MFG's get away with charging more

and

2. The associated governmental on-costs at the retail level are ridiculous.

The costs of production itself, regardless of whatever taxes are on it or markup, is higher than it is here largely because they provide the consumer more options.

Europeans custom order their cars with 5 times the frequency that Americans do. They simply want the exact car that they want when they're paying so much for it and are going to keep it for much longer than an American will. They don't settle quite as easily like those 30% of Americans that purchase a car that's not exactly what they wanted but was there on the lot.

Consumers here want options, but there's a limit to which they're willing to pay for them. Not everyone here wants to pay for the relative minority that wants a car exactly like they want it. And everyone ends up paying more when additional combinations of equipment are available because it impacts the overhead costs of producing a car.

You guys who want options would be VERY pleased if you wanted to buy an upcoming Chevrolet 1500 pickup. Multiple interiors, door configurations, suspension setups, drivetrain setups, and of course the biggie, four engine choices on the 1500 alone. With the bigger trucks, you can choose anything from a (relatively)small gasoline V8, turbodiesel, or a MASSIVE 8.1L big-block V8. Oh and did I mention, if the styling of Chevrolet isn't quite your cup of tea, you can even get it all in GMC spec, with an extra V8 and transmission choice added on. It's too bad the Malibu and Impala don't have that kind of diversity...

Trucks are the last bastion of full customization. With so many sold, hundreds upon hundreds of thousand a year, even with so many combinations the finances still work out because you're still so producing so many of each combination.

Not as efficient as it could be, but truck buyers really love it. Toyota went through a LOT to get the new '07 Tundra to have even a fraction of the options that the American alternatives have. It's just not in their mindset to do that, it goes against everything Toyota, one of the pioneers of lean manufacturing, believes.

Originally posted by sigma:
Trucks are the last bastion of full customization. With so many sold, hundreds upon hundreds of thousand a year, even with so many combinations the finances still work out because you're still so producing so many of each combination.

Eactly. When 600k F-150's are sold every year and 700k GM LD pickups, the amount of inventory at any given time is higher and the MFR can afford to have more combinations. I loved ordering my 1999 F-150 with configured exactly how I wanted it.

But you can't get a manual turbodiesel with every option. That is frusterating for me at least. I want to shift gears while sitting in leather!

Anyway, the 35 looks like it might be able to help Ford along a little.

Originally posted by BloodyTomFlint:
But you can't get a manual turbodiesel with every option. That is frusterating for me at least. I want to shift gears while sitting in leather!

Anyway, the 35 looks like it might be able to help Ford along a little.

Well I hate to say it, but the T'diesel is kind of a specialty engine. It makes sense that you can't put it in a vehicle that can't handle it right? Besides, who wants a manual when you have an Allison?

Me. And last I checked, adding leather to a truck doesn't mean the truck can't "handle" it.

Originally posted by MadMerc97:

Originally posted by BloodyTomFlint:
But you can't get a manual turbodiesel with every option. That is frusterating for me at least. I want to shift gears while sitting in leather!

Anyway, the 35 looks like it might be able to help Ford along a little.

Well I hate to say it, but the T'diesel is kind of a specialty engine. It makes sense that you can't put it in a vehicle that can't handle it right? Besides, who wants a manual when you have an Allison?

The Air Force ordered a whole fleet of 2006 Chevy 2500HD 2WD regular cab chassis-cab with a telephone maintenance bed that have the 6.6L Duramax with the 6 speed Allison...

Those things haul ass! That's all I'm going to say w/o incriminating myself

I guess I just don't understand why it has to be that way, as it sounds really stupid and inefficient to me. Don't they order parts based on the cars they have been requested to build? Can't they design things to use the same infrastructure between drivetrains and models?

Unfortunately, we're forced to suffer for these types of decisions.