Can anyone help me? - CEG Archives

If the PATS is not recognizing your key you can turn on the ignition and hear the fuel pump cycle, listen to the radio, put the windows up and down etc. when you turn the key the rest of the way it just doesn't crank the engine. Try all your other keys to see if they work.

When you did the work to the car did you disconnect the battery? try checking the connection at the battery terminals. take the cables off the battery and clean the cable ends and the battery terminals with a battery terminal cleaner.

Does you battery have a status window on it? The little round window you look in on the top of the battery to see the colored float. If its green the battery is ok, if its yellow or orange it will work for a little while but it is on its way out and may not hold a charge, if its red throw it away.

Did you pull any fuses to reset the computer or for any other reason? Its possible that the fuses have been damamged and do not pass current. Just becasue the element inside the fuse looks ok doesn't guarantee that the fuse will work. Use a multimeter or a test light to check for continuity between the two ends of the fuse.

Originally posted by JSmith:
If the PATS is not recognizing your key you can turn on the ignition and hear the fuel pump cycle, listen to the radio, put the windows up and down etc. when you turn the key the rest of the way it just doesn't crank the engine. Try all your other keys to see if they work.

When you did the work to the car did you disconnect the battery? try checking the connection at the battery terminals. take the cables off the battery and clean the cable ends and the battery terminals with a battery terminal cleaner.

Does you battery have a status window on it? The little round window you look in on the top of the battery to see the colored float. If its green the battery is ok, if its yellow or orange it will work for a little while but it is on its way out and may not hold a charge, if its red throw it away.

Did you pull any fuses to reset the computer or for any other reason? Its possible that the fuses have been damamged and do not pass current. Just becasue the element inside the fuse looks ok doesn't guarantee that the fuse will work. Use a multimeter or a test light to check for continuity between the two ends of the fuse.

Clutch sensor? I can't find any reference to one on AutoZone's website. Anyone know any other names?

No battery status window.

Yes I pulled fuses. I visually checked them all last night. I'll test them today.

I did not disconnect the battery. I did recently cleaned the battery terminals though.

My wife is going to check her key to check the PATS possibility.

When I put my key in I do not hear the fuel pump cycle. How do I check that?

This is really frustrating.

My wife checked with her key, no luck.

I ran out at lunch and got a Camshaft position sensor and ordered the Crankshaft position sensor and the Neutral Safety switch.

Any other ideas? How would I check out the electrical for the fuel pump?

Damn if it's not one thing it's another, eh?

With all the money you're sinking into troubleshooting based on the opinions here, kinda makes you feel like you would have saved $$ by sending it to a mechanic at first, huh?

Originally posted by FBooBerryC2:
Damn if it's not one thing it's another, eh?

With all the money you're sinking into troubleshooting based on the opinions here, kinda makes you feel like you would have saved $$ by sending it to a mechanic at first, huh?

i hafta agree with kim on this one. I appears pretty much everything is going wrong, i think it be worth a check up by a mechanic or worst case, stealership

Originally posted by FBooBerryC2:
Damn if it's not one thing it's another, eh?

With all the money you're sinking into troubleshooting based on the opinions here, kinda makes you feel like you would have saved $$ by sending it to a mechanic at first, huh?

Maybe. Well not really yet. At this point I haven't spent much and it has only cost me a little inconvenience.

Plus the car is stuck at my house, which is about a 25 minute drive from the mechanic I trust... There are a few in our town, but the nearest one I've had a bad experience with.

I can keep trying for a few days before my wife kills me.

I'm mostly in awe of your patience and diligence.

hang in there!

Originally posted by FBooBerryC2:
I'm mostly in awe of your patience and diligence.

hang in there!

You are funny. I'm just trying to take care of it, because we can't really afford a big repair bill right now.

if the camshaft sensor or the crankshaft sensor fail it won't affect wether the starter turns the engine or not.

To test the camshaft and crankshaft sensors do this: (the procedure is the same for both sensors) remove the connector from the sensor and use a ohmmeter to test the resistance between the sensor terminals crankshaft sensor should be between 200 to 450 ohms. camshaft sensor should b between 200 to 900 ohms. if you get readings different from these then the corresponding sensor needs replacement.

Before you go opening boxes and throwing parts into the car that you can't be certain need replacement I'd like to ask a few questions.

When you put the key in and turn it on so the lights on the dash come on; can you hear the fuel pump, does the radio work, do the power windows work (if you have them)

If none of these things are working there's two things I can think of.

1. In the "auxilary" fuse box under the hood there is what I call a "mother fuse" Its rating should be 80amp maybe more. this is the fuse for the entire auxilary fuse box. It should be listed as fuse#1 but check your owner's manual to make sure. (its big and square with a clear top) If that fuse blows then every circut that is fused from the fuse box under the hood will not work.

Also look for the starter solenoid, this controls power to the starter. It is in the fuse box under the hood, it might be yellow, it's number is R6. There's really no way to test it other than turning the ignition switch to start the engine, you should be able to hear a faint click comming from the soilenoid. If not, its gaboosh.

2. Under the hood, there is big solenoid. It controls power to the auxilary fuse box. This one turns on all the accessories that are controlled by the ignition switch. If this solenoid fails then nothing that is in the suxilary fuse box will work including the starter solenoid.

I found my haynes manual, can you tell

Originally posted by JSmith:
if the camshaft sensor or the crankshaft sensor fail it won't affect wether the starter turns the engine or not.

To test the camshaft and crankshaft sensors do this: (the procedure is the same for both sensors) remove the connector from the sensor and use a ohmmeter to test the resistance between the sensor terminals crankshaft sensor should be between 200 to 450 ohms. camshaft sensor should b between 200 to 900 ohms. if you get readings different from these then the corresponding sensor needs replacement.

Before you go opening boxes and throwing parts into the car that you can't be certain need replacement I'd like to ask a few questions.

When you put the key in and turn it on so the lights on the dash come on; can you hear the fuel pump, does the radio work, do the power windows work (if you have them)

If none of these things are working there's two things I can think of.

1. In the "auxilary" fuse box under the hood there is what I call a "mother fuse" Its rating should be 80amp maybe more. this is the fuse for the entire auxilary fuse box. It should be listed as fuse#1 but check your owner's manual to make sure. (its big and square with a clear top) If that fuse blows then every circut that is fused from the fuse box under the hood will not work.

Also look for the starter solenoid, this controls power to the starter. It is in the fuse box under the hood, it might be yellow, it's number is R6. There's really no way to test it other than turning the ignition switch to start the engine, you should be able to hear a faint click comming from the soilenoid. If not, its gaboosh.

2. Under the hood, there is big solenoid. It controls power to the auxilary fuse box. This one turns on all the accessories that are controlled by the ignition switch. If this solenoid fails then nothing that is in the suxilary fuse box will work including the starter solenoid.

I found my haynes manual, can you tell

Thanks for your help. Your questions:

1. I don't think that I am hearing the fuel pump. Yes the radio works and all lights interior and exterior (I don't have power windows).

So now I'm thinking it the fuel pump, since I don't hear it cycle on with the key.

How do I test that? How to make sure it's getting power? How to test if it's running? BTW the fuel filter is weeks old.

maybe you blew the fuse for ur fuel pump? or inst there a primer button near the clutch pedal to prime ur fuel pump? i think

Originally posted by Goonz SVT:
maybe you blew the fuse for ur fuel pump? or inst there a primer button near the clutch pedal to prime ur fuel pump? i think

Fuel cutoff switch. Check that first - free fix if so! IIRC it usually only trips if involved in a severe bump - i.e. a car accident ... but always worth a shot.

My Contour's fuel pump was replaced at 24K miles .. at least you made good mileage out of yours if that turns out to be the issue ..

you need to be certain if the fuel pump is running. Even if you have to lay under the car while someone turns the key to the run position.

If its not then checks these first:

Fuse 9, 20 amp, PCM module (fuse box under hood)

Fuse 10, 20 amp, ignition switch (fuse box under hood)

Fuse 11, 3 amp, PCM memory (fuse box under hood)

Fuse 14, 15 amp, fuel pump (fuse box under hood)

Fuse 30, 7.5 amp, engine management system (fuse box inside the car)

relay R6, fuel pump (fuse box under hood)

relay R11, PCM power supply (fuse box under hood)

relay R8, fuel pump, (fuse box under the hood)

check all these, then I'll tell you more stuff to check.

Originally posted by Rouar:

Originally posted by Goonz SVT:
maybe you blew the fuse for ur fuel pump? or inst there a primer button near the clutch pedal to prime ur fuel pump? i think

Fuel cutoff switch. Check that first - free fix if so! IIRC it usually only trips if involved in a severe bump - i.e. a car accident ... but always worth a shot.

My Contour's fuel pump was replaced at 24K miles .. at least you made good mileage out of yours if that turns out to be the issue ..

I was under the dash looking at the clutch switch and saw the fuel cutoff button. I pushed it, what should I do with it? How do you reset it? Is that what the button is for? Resetting?

I will get a tester and check all of these relays and fuses tonight. I'm very ignorant of electrical stuff. How do I check them? What sort of tester do I need?

About the Fuel pump, once the line is pressurized and you turn on the ignition would you still hear it? I've been turning the ignition on and off all weekend. Does the fuel pump always turn on even if there is no need?

Thanks for everyone's help, I really do appreciate it.

to test the fuses use a multimeter set to OHMs and touch the red wire from the meter to any one of the prongs on the fuse and touch the black wire to the other prong on the fuse. The meter should say zero or very close to zero. If it says infinity then the fuse is bad. Or you can use a test light. touch one end of the test light to any one prong of the fuse, connect the other end of the test light to the other prong. If the light comes on the fuse is good.

the relays are difficult to test with a meter. Two things you can do. For the starter solenoid (R6, in the under hood fuse box) have someone turn the key like they're trying to start the engine you should should be able to hear the relay clicking and if you put your finger on top of it you should be able to feel the click. If it doesn't click check fuse 10 (ignition switch) in the fuse box under the hood, if this fuse is good you need to test the starter.

The PCM relay (R11) is also in the fuse box under the hood. There are 3 or 4 more relays in a group with this one, they should all the same and if so you can swap them. You can use this ability to test them. Before you remove a relay or put one in, disconnect the battery. If you swap the PCM relay (R11) with the low beam headlight relay (R9) you can then turn on the low beam headlights. If they work then the relay is good, if not get a new relay.

The fuel cut off switch has a reset button on it. You reset the switch by pressing the botton. If the cut-off switch has not been tripped pressing the buttion will not affect operation of the system.

any time you turn the key to the run position (the spot you turn the key to so that the lights in the instrument panel come on) Every time the key is turned to this position the fuel pump is supposed to run for 2 to 3 seconds.

I hope this get you going in the right direction.

Jason

Jason,

Wow that is really helpful. Thanks so much!

I checked all the fuses you listed earlier in the thread last night without any problems, they all tested at under an oHm. I tried to test the relays, but it wasn't as obvious how to do so... I was able to get the ones you listed to test under an oHm by touching a certain combination of leads...

I will test the relays again tonight.

At this point I believe it to be the fuel pump or the starter. I had my wife cycle the key last night after I put everything back together. I lay beneath the fuel filter, I couldn't hear anything. I'll test the relays like you mentioned tonight.

Anyone... How do you test the starter? How do you test the fuel pump?

Have you tried the fuel pump reset (in the trunk)?

Originally posted by Cueball:
Have you tried the fuel pump reset (in the trunk)?

Um, no. I have pushed the button under the dash marked fuel pump reset, but have never heard of another one.

Where is this trunk mounted reset you mentioned?

heres a quick fuel pump trick...
with your wife in the car and you under it.
have her turn the key to start and hold it, while you hit the bottom of the tank in the center.
you might need to use a rubber mallet or something similar.
this might jog the fuel pump enough to get it to work.
then you will know its the fuel pump.

*done this many times to get cars in the garage to replace the pump.
even had to pull the rear seat and reach behind me while driving to bang on the tank of one car so it would keep runing long enough for me to get it inthe garage.

but yo said the car isnt even cranking right?
if its not cranking the fuel pump wouldnt matter.

Originally posted by Count Blah:

but you said the car isn't even cranking, right?
if it is not cranking the fuel pump wouldn't matter.

Yes, not even cranking. Does that automatically mean it's a starter problem? That does seem to make sense. I am just thinking that way because I don't hear the pump cycle on when I turn the key. Also for the past month or so the car bucks (like I dropped the clutch) at certain times, which I was thinking was fuel supply related. I already replaced the filter this month.

Any tricks for starters? I ran across a post while searching where someone said he put a wrench on the starter and hit it and it worked.

Where is the starter? I'm having trouble identifying it from any photos in my Haynes manual.

i would be looking more fo an ignition problem first.
it could be the starter.
and whacking the starter might work if the solenoid is stuck.
honestly..i have no clue where the starter is on these cars...blah
i have never actually looked for it!
haha

Sits on the tranny, under the intake pipe, but going back towards the firewall.

Originally posted by CSVT1214:
Sits on the tranny, under the intake pipe, but going back towards the firewall.

Approximately where?

Ignore the red circle and arrow...

Thanks again!

Originally posted by Count Blah:
i would be looking more fo an ignition problem first.
it could be the starter.
and whacking the starter might work if the solenoid is stuck.
honestly..i have no clue where the starter is on these cars...blah
i have never actually looked for it!
haha

Count,

What other ignition problems are possible? What else should I be looking at?

well...
i would look at the clutch switch, as stated before.
check the wires to your starter, check grounds.

you can rule out the ignition switch for now since it works in other positions.

you are sure the battery has a really good charge, right?
also your battery connections are nice and clean right?
did you check the crank sensor yet?

Originally posted by Count Blah:
well...
i would look at the clutch switch, as stated before.
check the wires to your starter, check grounds.

you can rule out the ignition switch for now since it works in other positions.

you are sure the battery has a really good charge, right?
also your battery connections are nice and clean right?
did you check the crank sensor yet?

Clutch switch == I got one but I must have the wrong one as the wiring won't fit. I have it and will return it today.

I'll check the wiring to the starter and grounds.

I'll put the charger on the battery for a few hours tonight.

Yes the battery connections are clean. I had the battery completely out a couple of nights ago. Cleaned the terminals.

Camshaft and crankshaft sensors have been replaced.

Thanks again for your help.

You can do a quick check of the battery's state of charge with a voltage meter. The battery should be at least 12 volts. A fully charged battery should have around 12.8 to 13.2 volts.

You were having some issues before you did any work. Problems that didn't seem to go away after servicing the intake system. Perhaps these symptoms that led you to servicing the intake system were actually symptoms of low fuel pressure due to a failing fuel pump. Its reasonable to believe that the fuel pump is not working becasue it has failed and trying what the Count suggested might get you some answers.

The starter. After you know that the clutch switch is good and after you've checked the battery connections, follow the ground wire from the battery to where it connects to the car. make sure that connection is tight and clean. The positive wire leads to the starter, make sure that this wire is clean and tight. To get to the starter you'll need to take off the air filter box and the bracket that holds the air filter box. Before you clean this wire or put a wrench or socket on it remove the negative wire from the battery. After checking these wires and the starter still doesn't work have your wife turn the key to start while you listen to hear the solenoid on the starter click. It makes a pretty good click you won't need to get right next to it to hear it. If you don't hear a click get a voltage meter and touch the (+) end of the meter to the threaded stud on the starter solenoid that has the smaller wire attached to it, touch the (-) end of the meter to the engine block or the metal part of the starter motor and have you wife turn the key to start you should see battery voltage when she turns the key. If you don't then its the relay R6 that is bad or the ignition switch itself. If you do see voltage then either the solenoid or the starter motor is bad. In either case you'll have to change the starter.

Thanks again Jason, you have been really helpful.

12.8 Volts, I just checked. I will check the other starter related stuff in a few minutes.

Do you think it is now the starter AND the fuel pump? Hopefully just a stuck starter and/ or fuel pump.

I dont understand how both can go dead all of a sudden with no warning

Originally posted by Goonz SVT:
I dont understand how both can go dead all of a sudden with no warning

I can't either.

But I've seen stranger things happen before.

Originally posted by mean'tour:

12.8 Volts, I just checked. I will check the other starter related stuff in a few minutes.

Do you think it is now the starter AND the fuel pump? Hopefully just a stuck starter and/ or fuel pump.

12.8, excellent. One more thing to do with the voltage meter. This will help test the battery's capacity. Turn on the ignition and turn on the heater blower, the radio and the headlights and then check the battery voltage again. It will drop some, it will start dropping fast and then slow down and eventually stop and hold steady but it shouldn't get much lower than 11 after 10 to 15 seconds.

I don't want to jump to conclusions. I like to keep an open mind when I'm troubleshooting. The checks you'll do will help determine the casue of the starter's problem. To be honest, I'm hoping its something silly like a loose connection on the ignition switch, but more realistically I'm thinking its possible that there is a coincidental failure of both the fuel pump and the starter relays.

I like the Count's suggestion about checking the fuel pump. I've never heard of doing that before, but its simple.

Originally posted by JSmith:

I like the Count's suggestion about checking the fuel pump. I've never heard of doing that before, but its simple.

when my old boss told me that i thought he was crazy..but it really works!

everything works better when you bang it enough

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
everything works better when you bang it enough

qoute of the day!!!!!...blah

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
everything works better when you bang it enough

That made me giggle.

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by mean'tour:

12.8 Volts, I just checked. I will check the other starter related stuff in a few minutes.

Do you think it is now the starter AND the fuel pump? Hopefully just a stuck starter and/ or fuel pump.

12.8, excellent. One more thing to do with the voltage meter. This will help test the battery's capacity. Turn on the ignition and turn on the heater blower, the radio and the headlights and then check the battery voltage again. It will drop some, it will start dropping fast and then slow down and eventually stop and hold steady but it shouldn't get much lower than 11 after 10 to 15 seconds.

I don't want to jump to conclusions. I like to keep an open mind when I'm troubleshooting. The checks you'll do will help determine the casue of the starter's problem. To be honest, I'm hoping its something silly like a loose connection on the ignition switch, but more realistically I'm thinking its possible that there is a coincidental failure of both the fuel pump and the starter relays.

I like the Count's suggestion about checking the fuel pump. I've never heard of doing that before, but its simple.

I'll check the battery's capacity tonight.

I checked R6, I could hear and feel it clicking. I also swapped out the other relays to check, low beams turned on.

Which is the starter? Which is the solenoid? What is this thing (more just curious) circled?

I guessed based on the location and started to remove "A" but then saw an exploded view of the starter on Bill's website and I think the starter is "B".

Again, I really appreciate the help. I let my wife not be stranded today and rode my road bike to work. Not too bad it takes me about 35-40 minutes to drive (slow back roads). I rode it in just over an hour. Was 15 minutes ahead of the rain!

ElKy aka Count Blah, or anyone really (especially Jason - you've been super helpful)... I was talking to my wife a little last night explaining to her what I was trying to do etc. based on everyone's suggestions. She grew up around cars, her father was always buying an under priced used car and fixing it up and turning it around for a profit. She wants to know how nice of a dinner she would have to make for you to come down to Uxbridge and help me fix this? ha ha She's makes really good desserts!

A is for the reverse lights

B is the starter

and

the question mark is the counter weight for the cable shifter

Awesome thanks. What about this (NEW ARROW) is that all part of the reverse lights?

Where's the starter solenoid? Is it part of the starter. Or fuse box...

I'll check the wiring and grounds associated with the starter. How can I know if it is bad or not?

the starter solenoid is bolted to the side of the starter.
you cant see it in that picture.
it is what the wires for the starter are attached to.

did you try whacking the starter while your wife turns the key?
seemd like you have a straigt shot at it to hit it pretty good.

if you hit it and it tries to start then yo uknow its defintly the starter.

wish i could coe down and help you.
i wouldnt be able to try and come down until at least saturday, and i couldnt make any promises.

Originally posted by Count Blah:
the starter solenoid is bolted to the side of the starter.
you cant see it in that picture.
it is what the wires for the starter are attached to.

did you try whacking the starter while your wife turns the key?
seemd like you have a straigt shot at it to hit it pretty good.

if you hit it and it tries to start then yo uknow its defintly the starter.

wish i could coe down and help you.
i wouldnt be able to try and come down until at least saturday, and i couldnt make any promises.

We tried to give it a good whack, I'll try more tonight.

She was kind of kidding, even though if you showed she would take care of you! I'm not available until Saturday either.

She's getting a little more frustrated about it than I am, maybe because I'm not all that inconvenienced. She just keeps asking me, so what are you trying tonight? I'll spend what I can of Saturday and Monday on it.

you are attacking it in the right manner.
with a no-start it can only be so many things.
and since it is a no crank...it narrows it down even more.
keep checking the things that Jay and i mentioned, and it will surface.

Originally posted by Count Blah:
you are attacking it in the right manner.
with a no-start it can only be so many things.
and since it is a no crank...it narrows it down even more.
keep checking the things that Jay and i mentioned, and it will surface.

Senor Blah,

(BTW what's up with the blah's, do you have a case of them?)

Thanks for the encouragement. I will check the wiring, the loaded battery voltage and start hitting things. That I could get into...

My Haynes manual leaves much to be desired in the way of part identification. I began taking this off last night to move the remainder of the airbox mount, but then realized I probably shouldn't.

Is this the motor mount for that side?

Also, to everyone offering suggestions, I really appreciate it! For a bunch of Massholes, you are pretty great! ha ha ha

yeah thats the tranny/motor mount.
unless you have the tranny supported from underneath, i wouldnt take that out.

If you can feel R6 clicking then: 1. the start position of the ignition switch is good. 2. R6 is getting the input signal from the ignition switch so the wiring is good.

Just becasue R6 clicks when you turn the key doesn't mean that it is good. Relays can click but the internal switch can be bad. What you need to do now is check out the starter and find the solenoid, like Brapple said, its attached to the starter the solenoid looks like a little round tube with wires going to the back of it. There might be a cover on the back of the solenoid to protect the wires, if there is take it off. Use a voltage meter and check for voltage on the smaller of the wires when your wife turns the key to start. If you see battery voltage then that means that R6 is good and the wiring is good and the starter is bad and needs replacement. If you don't see voltage then R6 is bad and needs to be replaced. If you put the voltage meter on the big wire that comes from the battery, that should also have battery voltage all the time.

You swapped out the fuel pump and the headlight relays and the headlights still worked so the fuel pump relay is good. The next thing to do is get to the fuel pump, its on top of the gas tank, you get to it by removing the rear seat cushion. My Haynes manual says to fold the seat cushion forward and on some models there are mounting bolts that need to be removed. I took the seat out of my SVT when I had it and there were no bolts, just pop-together clips that are a pain to get apart. Under the seat cushion there will be a rubber gromet, take that out and that will expose the fuel pump. Then its time to try what the count says and tap the pump with a soft hammer while your wife turns the key on and see if the pump turns on. It looks like there's some plastic parts on the pump so be careful not to break them.

I know everyone is sitting on the edge of their seats.... (haha)

I took yesterday off. My wife and kiddies came and picked me and my bike up from work. The kiddies have colds so noone went to bed on time. CSI and a little extra tired from the morning commute and a tough day at work, and I was done for at 10:05.

I will work on it this weekend. My goal is to drive to work in the Contour on Tuesday (I have Monday off).

I truly appreciate everyone's suggestions! I can't believe that both the starter and fuel pump died at once, but it does have 120,xxx miles and is 8 years old.

I will check here again before starting any work. If anyone has any other ideas, let me know. Thanks again and HAPPY EASTER!!! (no offense if your aren't Christian) or HAPPY SPRING!!!

Dang this engine bay is hard to work in. Did some testing this morning, and went and bought a starter. Having trouble getting the front mounting bolt loose. Got the rear after some difficulties.

Any ideas? I'm using a regular 13mm wrench but it is just too short to get any leverage... I guess I need a 3-4 inch piece of pipe or something.

Have a good holiday!

double wrench it.
put the box end of the 13mm on the bolt and then hook a larger box wrench on teh open end of the 13mm.
you just lengthened your 13mm by at least 6"

All right, worked most of the day on the starter. Got it out and replaced. STILL NO START!

I was going through all the things people told me to check, and remembered that I had forgotten the Clutch sensor/switch. I bought one at AZone but it didn't fit and then it slipped my mind.

Now I'm desperate. I will find and replace them. There are 2 of them. They seem to work against each other one moves out as you depress the clutch and one moves in. Which should I replace?

If that doesn't make any difference, what's next? How do I test the wiring to make sure power is getting to the (new) starter?

Then what?

Originally posted by mean'tour:
All right, worked most of the day on the starter. Got it out and replaced. STILL NO START!

I was going through all the things people told me to check, and remembered that I had forgotten the Clutch sensor/switch. I bought one at AZone but it didn't fit and then it slipped my mind.

Now I'm desperate. I will find and replace them. There are 2 of them. They seem to work against each other one moves out as you depress the clutch and one moves in. Which should I replace?

If that doesn't make any difference, what's next? How do I test the wiring to make sure power is getting to the (new) starter?

Then what?

Here is a photo (excuse the quick drawing) of the switches/ sensors I found. I tried to replace the red one with the one AZone sold me, but the stock wiring didn't fit.

As the clutch pedal is depressed the gray plunger on the red sensor opens up/ moves out, and the gray plunger on the black sensor closes/ moves in.

The numbers listed on the parts are:

Red: 95BB-7C534-AC (I think, it is really hard to read) and P6M GA

Black: 94BB-11A152-AB and P6M GA.

That 2nd number confuses me as there is no way they are interchangeable. But that is what my local CAP store told me.

I've not had any luck with any of those part numbers at: www.teamfordparts.com either. Any ideas?

and the AZ one doesnt fit where the black one goes?
(i am sure you already tried that)

do you have one of the manuals on cd?
maybe it will explain it more inthere.
i have them all at home and i can check later.

Originally posted by Me ted:
and the AZ one doesnt fit where the black one goes?
(i am sure you already tried that)

do you have one of the manuals on cd?
maybe it will explain it more inthere.
i have them all at home and i can check later.

I'm pretty sure.

It was weird because the AZone switch mounted in the same way (a push in and twist) as the red stock one, but the stock wiring plug was a different size and/ or shape and wouldn't fit. The black one just pushes in. Maybe I'll try to see if there is some way for it to fit tonight. I honestly didn't try becaUse of the obvious different mounting method.

one thing i hate about teamfordparts.com
is they dont always give you part numbers and stuff, just descriptions.
and sometimes you get full diagrams and everything.
WTF!!!!

they only list one neutral safety switch for the MTX, but no part number.

that makes sense.
does the factory harnes plug into the black one?
i find it funny that only one switch is listed, yet you have two.
cant understand what the second one would be for.

redundency system?
bah

Originally posted by Me ted:
that makes sense.
does the factory harnes plug into the black one?
i find it funny that only one switch is listed, yet you have two.
cant understand what the second one would be for.

redundency system?
bah

cruise control? but I don't see why it couldn't use the same switch

Originally posted by Me ted:
one thing i hate about teamfordparts.com
is they dont always give you part numbers and stuff, just descriptions.
and sometimes you get full diagrams and everything.
WTF!!!!

they only list one neutral safety switch for the MTX, but no part number.

How did you find it? I played around on the site last night and this morning a little with no luck.

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Me ted:
that makes sense.
does the factory harnes plug into the black one?
i find it funny that only one switch is listed, yet you have two.
cant understand what the second one would be for.

redundency system?
bah

cruise control? but I don't see why it couldn't use the same switch

Have either of you looked at yours before? (I'm not asking to look, I just wondered) Do you have 2 switches?

I just called my local Ford dealer and gave him the numbers. They didn't mean anything to him, but I described... He thinks they are probably the Clutch position and the Cruise control deactivation switches. 3-5 days to get in, they don't have them in stock. Could get from Bill by then.

I PM'd Bill in Vegas and am trying to find something on his site.

look under chassis electrical
then under switches.
then neutral safety switch.

Originally posted by Me ted:
look under chassis electrical
then under switches.
then neutral safety switch.

Ah ok got it. What about Brapple's suggestion of the cruise control switch? I can't seem to find that.

How about you check the switches before you replace them. Get a multimeter and put a probe on each connector terminal switch it to ohms and see if you get anything when you hit the switch.
Maybe it isn't starting becuase you screwed up the pats system. See what your securtiy light is doing when you try and start it.

Originally posted by svtavino:
How about you check the switches before you replace them. Get a multimeter and put a probe on each connector terminal switch it to ohms and see if you get anything when you hit the switch.
Maybe it isn't starting becuase you screwed up the pats system. See what your securtiy light is doing when you try and start it.

I don't think the security light is doing anything strange, but I'll watch it more closely tonight.

Honestly I'm afraid to check the switches... I'm afraid it is not the switches and is wiring or something worse.

The Ford dealer parts guy I spoke with today suggested I short the switch out see if that helps? I was thinking about this as well, but am a little nervous about that. Is that a good idea?

I'll quit being a chicken and get my meter out tonight.

Those switches are most likely always on switches so when they are pressed they are off. So shorting it would show if it is the switch but I would still check it with the multimeter before you buy more parts. Don't throw parts at it if it isn't the problem.

If Woody had gone straight to the police, none of this would have happened

This is what you need.

"M/T with cruise control, used for engine emission control and deactivation of speed control during clutch pedal depression"
F8RZ-12B537-AC

wo0t!
the fisrt one on the list is the one i found.

bill, is there anyway to see the actual part number on the website?

hehe and i also just noticed that in the list of search words down the bottom of the page, 'escort' is spelled 'escprt'

and f150 isn't listed.

hehe

Originally posted by mean'tour:

Originally posted by Me ted:
look under chassis electrical
then under switches.
then neutral safety switch.

Ah ok got it. What about Brapple's suggestion of the cruise control switch? I can't seem to find that.

I can see it being a possibility for the two switches is one for cruise and one for the neutral safety. Becasue... For the neutral safety switch to allow the starter to work the clutch needs to be just about on the floor. But... if you have cruise control on you can kick it off by just tapping the clutch pedal.

I'll bet a weeks pay that the two switches in the car are set up like this. For one switch to make its contacts it needs to be pressed in and for the other to make its contacts it needs to be let out.

check for voltage at the starter by testing for voltage at the large wire going to the starter. You should have the battery voltage here all the time. Then put the meter on the smaller wire and with the clutch pressed down turn the key to start the engine and thats when you should see battery voltage at the solenoid wire.

If you don't get power going to the smaller wire then there are probably any one of 3 things wrong, R6 is bad, the neutral safety switch is bad or the start contact in the ignition switch is bad.

I'm beginning to think more and more that becasue these two problems, the starter and the fuel pump seemed to happen almost simultaneously I'm starting to get a gut feeling that you need to invest some effort into testing the ignition switch. Becasue the ignition switch is the one individual part that is part of both systems.

i do happen to have a spare igintion switch if you want to try it out ... I should be able to grab it Saturday when I am home and could have it with me at the car show sunday ...

hey schmitty...Bill J alread clarified that the switches are neutral safety and cruise.
hehe

I'm totally at a loss. I just got in from replacing the sensors then taking one of them out and shorting the connections with a wire, then vise versa. Still NOTHING, NADA!

How do I test the ignition switch mentioned earlier?

Originally posted by svtavino:
How about you check the switches before you replace them. Get a multimeter and put a probe on each connector terminal switch it to ohms and see if you get anything when you hit the switch.
Maybe it isn't starting becuase you screwed up the pats system. See what your securtiy light is doing when you try and start it.

How would I check the PATS system? I watched the red dash light as I tried to start it last night, it just blinked every few seconds.

Originally posted by mean'tour:

Originally posted by svtavino:
How about you check the switches before you replace them. Get a multimeter and put a probe on each connector terminal switch it to ohms and see if you get anything when you hit the switch.
Maybe it isn't starting becuase you screwed up the pats system. See what your securtiy light is doing when you try and start it.

How would I check the PATS system? I watched the red dash light as I tried to start it last night, it just blinked every few seconds.

the pats light blinks when the ignition is off, when you put the key in and turn to position three the light should light for a few seconds then turn off and stay off until the ignition is no longer in position 3

I don't remember, does the fuel pump run when you turn the key to run (position 3)?

starting to sound like the ignition switch isn't working right

Originally posted by Smitty Smitwagg:

check for voltage at the starter by testing for voltage at the large wire going to the starter. You should have the battery voltage here all the time. Then put the meter on the smaller wire and with the clutch pressed down turn the key to start the engine and thats when you should see battery voltage at the solenoid wire.

If you don't get power going to the smaller wire then there are probably any one of 3 things wrong, R6 is bad, the neutral safety switch is bad or the start contact in the ignition switch is bad.

I'm beginning to think more and more that because these two problems, the starter and the fuel pump, seemed to happen almost simultaneously I'm starting to get a gut feeling that you need to invest some effort into testing the ignition switch. Because the ignition switch is the one individual part that is part of both systems.

That sounds pretty reasonable.

Can someone tell me a few things... (I'm pretty new at all of this and sometimes need more explicit instructions).

1. How exactly would I test the starter voltage? Put the red lead on the 2 areas (at different times) and the black where? Grounded? Put the meter on volts, right?

2. How do I test the ignition switch? Where is it? Is it easily replaceable?

Thanks again to everyone for their suggestions and patience with me.

BrApple, thanks for your suggestions and the offer of the spare ignition switch. I hope to have her back up and running before the weekend, plus I don't think I can make it out on Sunday. But I really do appreciate the offer.

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by mean'tour:

Originally posted by svtavino:
How about you check the switches before you replace them. Get a multimeter and put a probe on each connector terminal switch it to ohms and see if you get anything when you hit the switch.
Maybe it isn't starting becuase you screwed up the pats system. See what your securtiy light is doing when you try and start it.

How would I check the PATS system? I watched the red dash light as I tried to start it last night, it just blinked every few seconds.

the pats light blinks when the ignition is off, when you put the key in and turn to position three the light should light for a few seconds then turn off and stay off until the ignition is no longer in position 3

I don't remember, does the fuel pump run when you turn the key to run (position 3)?

starting to sound like the ignition switch isn't working right

No, no fuel pump running. I'm starting to think ignition as well (he says as if he knows anything!).

How do I test?

ignition switch is on the steering collumn oposite of the key, it is easily replaced, might try one from a junk yard if you can find one

Originally posted by Smitty Smitwagg:
If you can feel R6 clicking then: 1. the start position of the ignition switch is good. 2. R6 is getting the input signal from the ignition switch so the wiring is good.

Just becasue R6 clicks when you turn the key doesn't mean that it is good. Relays can click but the internal switch can be bad. What you need to do now is check out the starter and find the solenoid, like Brapple said, its attached to the starter the solenoid looks like a little round tube with wires going to the back of it. There might be a cover on the back of the solenoid to protect the wires, if there is take it off. Use a voltage meter and check for voltage on the smaller of the wires when your wife turns the key to start. If you see battery voltage then that means that R6 is good and the wiring is good and the starter is bad and needs replacement. If you don't see voltage then R6 is bad and needs to be replaced. If you put the voltage meter on the big wire that comes from the battery, that should also have battery voltage all the time.

I was just rereading this thread to see if there is anything I missed...

I was thinking bad ignition switch, but this post seems to say no to that since R6 does click when I attempt to start it. I have a new R6 relay I have tried as well.

Originally posted by Smitty Smitwagg:

check for voltage at the starter by testing for voltage at the large wire going to the starter. You should have the battery voltage here all the time. Then put the meter on the smaller wire and with the clutch pressed down turn the key to start the engine and thats when you should see battery voltage at the solenoid wire.

If you don't get power going to the smaller wire then there are probably any one of 3 things wrong, R6 is bad, the neutral safety switch is bad or the start contact in the ignition switch is bad.

I'm beginning to think more and more that becasue these two problems, the starter and the fuel pump seemed to happen almost simultaneously I'm starting to get a gut feeling that you need to invest some effort into testing the ignition switch. Becasue the ignition switch is the one individual part that is part of both systems.

I guess I should check the starter wiring out tonight. How exactly would I do that? Reading Volts, touch the red lead where and the black lead where? I tried to read it the other night and got all 0's but wasn't really sure if I was doing it right.

If I was doing it right, what might that mean? A bad wire between the battery and starter? How do you fix that? Could it still be the ignition?

I'm so confused.

theres a few ways to check it.
the big red wiree should have battery voltage at all times.
so put one lead on the starter there and the other to ground. should read battery voltage.
if not, there is an issue with the cable.
you could then do a resistance check on the cable by setting the DVM to Ohms and touching each end, resistance should be negligable.
if it is high then the cable needs to be replaced.
the smaller red wire should see battery votage when the key is turned to the start position.

you said the started doesnt even click when th ekey is turned right?

when you replaced the starter did you disconnect the battery first?
if not, when the big red wire touched any metal it would have arced...bad.heh.

if it did touch metal and did not arc then that shows that the cable is bad too.
but i hope you disconnected the battery.

Originally posted by ElKy:
theres a few ways to check it.
the big red wiree should have battery voltage at all times.
so put one lead on the starter there and the other to ground. should read battery voltage.
if not, there is an issue with the cable.
you could then do a resistance check on the cable by setting the DVM to Ohms and touching each end, resistance should be negligable.
if it is high then the cable needs to be replaced.
the smaller red wire should see battery votage when the key is turned to the start position.

you said the started doesnt even click when th ekey is turned right?

when you replaced the starter did you disconnect the battery first?
if not, when the big red wire touched any metal it would have arced...bad.heh.

if it did touch metal and did not arc then that shows that the cable is bad too.
but i hope you disconnected the battery.

Thanks Mr. ElKy. I will try those things tonight.

Yes, nothing happens when you try to start it up. No click, no crank, nothing.

Yes, I did take the battery out when I was changing the starter, I needed the room!

I'm sorry to be so confusing.

I didn't completely read Bill J's post. I was seeing things at the time. I was having visions of Capt'n Morgan dancing in my head.

R6 clicking does mean that the start position of the ignition switch is good and the wiring leading to R6 is good. What we don't know is the condition of the wiring between R6 and the starter, and the condition of the contacts inside the relay that allow power to flow from the battery, through the relay and to the starter. Checking the voltage at the smaller wire on the starter will hopefully establish an answer and narrow the search.

Originally posted by Smitty Smitwagg:
I'm sorry to be so confusing.

R6 clicking does mean that the start position of the ignition switch is good and the wiring leading to R6 is good. What we don't know is the condition of the wiring between R6 and the starter, and the condition of the contacts inside the relay that allow power to flow from the battery, through the relay and to the starter. Checking the voltage at the smaller wire on the starter will hopefully establish an answer and narrow the search.

No problem, thanks for your help.

So is the ignition switch definitely out of the picture?

I tested the voltage on the starter tonight. Big wire has about battery voltage all the time. None of the other ones have any voltage ever, key on or key off.

I have a new relay for R6 that I got at AZone. Unless I did something stupid and fried it (are you supposed to disconnect the battery every time you pull a fuse or relay?) then R6 is not the problem. As I was testing voltages I switched out my stock relay for the new one. Same results.

What next? I don't believe it is the clutch switch but it has not been replaced. I did disconnect the switch itself and put a wire between the contacts and try to start it up. I found the switch that AZone sold me, and it is the rear one, the black one from my photo. Replaced.

Thanks again, I truly appreciate all of the help!

What's next?

Originally posted by mean'tour:
I tested the voltage on the starter tonight. Big wire has about battery voltage all the time. None of the other ones have any voltage ever, key on or key off.

I have a new relay for R6 that I got at AZone. Unless I did something stupid and fried it (are you supposed to disconnect the battery every time you pull a fuse or relay?) then R6 is not the problem. As I was testing voltages I switched out my stock relay for the new one. Same results.

Relays are pretty robust, as long as you don't push them to handle more power than they are supposed to and keep them out of the weather like they are in the fuse box then they should last a pretty long time. When you remove or replace a relay you at least want to make sure that the circuit they are part of is turned off and in the case of R6, if the ignition was off then there was no power in the circuit. But, as a rule of thumb for when you do any electrical work on a car or anywhere for that matter you always want to make sure there is no power. Disconnecting the batter is the fail proof way of making sure there is no power in the car.

The only time there will be voltage at the small wire on the starter is when the ignition switch is turned all the way like you are going to start the engine. There will be no voltage in this wire if the key is just in the run or on position.

Almost battery voltage at the big wire on the starter probably means that it is just fine. The slight difference is probably becasue of the spot where the negative prong of the meter was put to for a ground wasn't perfectly clean.

So that being said, should I go get another relay? I did just pull it a few times while testing (Prior to last night). Just not thinking.

I did test the small wire as my wife was turning the key to try and start the car. Nada. What does that mean? I forgot to do ElKy's ohm test.

Anyone have any ideas what I should test next?

Should I be ordering a replacement Neutral/ clutch switch? New R6 relay? Testing/ replacing the ignition switch? What about PATS? Pop starting it and taking it to the mechanics? (If it will run even then, which I'm not sure of).

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I am a little. Not at you guys, just at the car and the situation. Luckily the weather was nice for my bike commute this morning.

Thanks again.

ok if there is no current to the little wire when the key is turned to start, but R6 is clicking, then it is a wiring issue form R6 to the starter solenoid.
did you clean the end of the wire before you put it back on the starter?
can you trace the wire back to where it originates?

as jay said, check the contacts where the relay plugs in.

maybe the output wire from the relay is crap.

I did the best that I could to clean the wires to the starter before reinstalling them, but it is tight in there. I tried to get any crap off with a little wire brush and I coated the end with dielectric grease.

I remembered something else.... Tell me if this might be related.

Before (obviously) if I drove somewhere, then parked ran in and back out quickly and restarted the car, there would be a weird smell in the compartment for a minute or two. Didn't smell like anything burning, just something hot or something... I'm not sure how to describe it.

I will try to follow the wire from the fuse box to the starter. What am I looking for? Exposed wires, melting, etc?

Thanks again.

really?
yeah, if you can find some melted wires or anything thats a great place to start.

Originally posted by ElKy da Stalker:
really?
yeah, if you can find some melted wires or anything thats a great place to start.

Elky, Who are you stalking?

Can anyone narrow down the possibilities for me?

Should I be getting a Clutch safety switch?
Ignition switch?
Any idea how to test PATS?
I'll look at the relay to starter wiring tonight, I hope.
What else is there?

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the help. I'm sorry to be so much trouble.

I just spent the last 30 min. studying the wiring diagrams in my haynes manual. There are 2 components in the fuse boxes that I have overlooked. They are Diodes which are solid state electronics (no moving parts) that allow power to flow only one way. They usually don't fail but when they do its instantly and without any warning at all.

To test the diodes... They will look like a a small relay. They have a diagram on them that looks like 2 arrows point at eachother with a line between the points of the arrows. Take them out, they come out like fuses. They have 2 pins on them. take your meter set to check resistance. Touch one prong of the meter to one pin of the diode, touch the other prong of the meter to the other pin of the diode. Then reverse where you put the prongs of the meter. One way you ahould have a low resistance, the other way should have a very high resistance. If you don't then it is dead.

how to find them.

Check Fuses 1 and 10, both are in the auxilary fuse box under the hood.

Check the starter relay diode in the fuse box under the hood. Its located right under a line of 4 fuses.

Check fuse 30 in the fuse box inside the car.

Check the ignition relay diode in the fuse box in the car. Its on the bottom between the alligator thing and the rows of fuses.

Also, if you said there was a smell, then look for wires that look different with dark spots on them or spots with the insulation bubbled up or even missing.

Check the small wire at the starter for resistance. Here's how to do it. Pull out R6, look at the bottom of it where all the pins are, there should be 4 of them and they should have numbers on the case next to them, 1,2,5 and 3. On the socket in the fuse box that pin 5 would go into put one end of the resistance meter on there, don't press it in or it might mess up the socket so just touch the meter to it, put the other wire of the meter onto the end of the small wire on the starter. (Take this wire off th starter first or the meter will also be trying to read the resistance of the solenoid and give you an erronous reading) The resistance should be very low.

While you have R6 removed use your voltage meter to check for voltage in the socket that pin 3 of R6 fits into. There should be battery voltage there all the time. This is where the relay gets the power from to send to the starter when R6 gets input from the ignition switch when you turn the key to start.

you can do this. Disconnect the battery. Leave the small wire on the starter disconnected, leave R6 out. Take a short peice of wire and short out the sockets in the fuse box that pins 5 and 3 of R6 fit into. This will make the connection that R6 makes to send power to the starter. Take your resisitance meter and put one end on the potitive battery cable terminal and put the other end of the meter onto the end of the small wire that attaches to the starter. The resistance should be low. This will test the condition of the wiring from the battery, through the fuse box and to the starter.

The very dangerous way to test this (DO NOT DO THIS) is with the transmission in neutral, the clutch pedal on the floor and the parking brake on, hook up the small wire to the starter, hook up the battery and use the jumper wire in the sockets of the fuse box for R6 like I said earlier. This should get the starter to crank the engine. What that is doing is bypassing the ignition switch, bypassing all the safety features

J,

WOW THANKS ! I REALLY appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this! The CEG ROCKS especially NECEG!

I have whittled myself out some time tonight to work on this. I will try what you say.

On the dangerous testing method, what is the danger? Killing the new starter?

I will do some visual checking for any messed up wiring as well. That smell thing on quick restarts has been going on for a while. I didn't worry about it much since it always started right up, I figured the starter just got a little hotter than normal since it just got worked twice in a short amount of time... But now I'm not sure that makes any sense. Must have been an early symptom...

I am running out of time to fix this on my own. My wife has been super patient and all (since some days I steal her van, and others she has to drop me off and pick me up) but she is now thinking that I just don't have the proper diagnostic tools and experience. There is a little indy shop that I can probably push the car to, she thinks we should pay them to diagnose the car, and take what he says is wrong and then I can fix it. She figured all the good citizens of the CEG could tell me what parts of his diagnosis are BS and what is not.

Thanks again! Everyone has been really helpful and patient, and I do appreciate it. I will return and report.

All right, I'm reporting.

Fuse 1 and 10 under hood - OK.
Fuse 30 in car - OK.
Diodes? -- Not sure, can't seem to get a reading on them. On the in car one a reading will flash on one way, but not reversed. Under hood, nothing.
Looked all around the battery, fuse box, starter, etc. Nothing obviously wrong with any wires.
Pin 3 of R6 does have battery voltage.
Small wire on starter- low resistance, under 1.
If someone else had been around to hold the clutch down, I would have tried the DO NOT TRY TEST, but couldn't.

Could someone go over how to test diodes again, please. Set the meter to oHms right? (Sigma)

It got cold and dark, and I did all of my testing. I'm just going to buy some replacement diodes in the morning. Can't be too much $$.

PRAY THAT IS THE PROBLEM! The under the hood one might be bad, I tried to follow J's testing instructions, but must be doing something wrong.

Anyway, thanks again! Pray for me, I need it! Or wish me LUCK ! ! !

Yes, you test the diode by setting the meter to resistance.

The diodes have two pins on them. put one probe of the meter on each pin of the diode, see what the reading is. Then swap the position of the probes of the meter and see what the resistance is. One way should be alot lower than the other way.

When you take the diode out make sure that you pay attention to which way it was installed. If you install it the wrong way it will not allow the circuit to work properly. Unless the two pins of the diode are differnt so its impossible to put it in wrong. (Like how relays are they have one pin that is sideways compared to the others so there is no way it can go in wrong)

The diodes will probably cost somewhere between $2 and $3 each. I want to say that they are standardized like the fuses so they should be reasonably easy to find. If you do get new ones make sure you take the ones you are replacing with you to make sure that you get the right ones.

If you try the DO NOT TRY THIS way of testing the starter by shourting the pins I mentioned it won't matter if the clutch is pressed or not for it to work. Thats why its dangerous. If all the wiring is good The engine will crank wether the transmission is in gear or not and the clutch out or in. So when the engine turns the car can move and if it starts it will drive away without out you or if you're in front of it, it will drive over you. Thats why its dangerous.

If the small wire has a resistance under 1, then that means that either R6, the starter, the ignition diode, the starter diode or the big wire from the battery to the starter are bad.

To test the big wire, disconnect it from the starter and from the battery and check the resistance trough it. You should see 1ohm or less, even go as far as to push and twist the probe into the end of the wire that attaches to the battery so it digs in a little to be sure it gets a real good connection you're looking for 1ohm or less.

To test R6.
take it out. Connect (-) 12 volt power to pin 1, connect (+) 12 volt power to pin 2. Make sure you connect power to the pins of the relay by some means that can hold themselves on becasue you'll need your hands free to hold the probes of the meter. AS soon as you make that connection you should hear and or feel the relay click. Then use your resistance meter and test the resistance between pins 3 and 5. (it doesn't matter which probe of the meter you touch to the pins as long as one probe is on 3 and the other probe is on 5) the resistance should be low. If its high or infinity its bad. If you just want to replace it R6 will proably cost in the area of $6 to $10.

I'm really hoping you get to the bottom of this. I'm getting excited to find out what you find wrong.

Originally posted by JSmith:
I just spent the last 30 min. studying the wiring diagrams in my haynes manual. Truly I appreciate it!

To test the diodes... I had some trouble testing them, but the in car one is OK. My meter flashes a number one way and 0 the other. The underhood one I couldn't get any reading on. Replacement on the way.

how to find them.

Check Fuses 1 and 10, both are in the auxilary fuse box under the hood. Both OK.

Check the starter relay diode in the fuse box under the hood. Its located right under a line of 4 fuses. Replacement on the way.

Check fuse 30 in the fuse box inside the car. OK

Check the ignition relay diode in the fuse box in the car. Its on the bottom between the alligator thing and the rows of fuses. Seems OK.

Also, if you said there was a smell, then look for wires that look different with dark spots on them or spots with the insulation bubbled up or even missing. Nothing obvious. I got under and looked up as well.

Check the small wire at the starter for resistance. Here's how to do it. The resistance should be very low. Under 1.

While you have R6 removed use your voltage meter to check for voltage in the socket that pin 3 of R6 fits into. There should be battery voltage there all the time. 12.8.

you can do this. Disconnect the battery. Leave the small wire on the starter disconnected, leave R6 out. Take a short peice of wire and short out the sockets in the fuse box that pins 5 and 3 of R6 fit into. This will make the connection that R6 makes to send power to the starter. Take your resisitance meter and put one end on the potitive battery cable terminal and put the other end of the meter onto the end of the small wire that attaches to the starter. The resistance should be low. Under 1.

I also tested the starter by taking a large piece of wire (piece of old jumper cable) and connected the small wire to the large wire on the starter and it cranked!! But no start. I juggled everything and made that connection, opened the throttle AND PRAYED all at once. But still NO GO!

I'll try the DANGEROUS way tonight.

What else should I be checking? I pulled the back seat and foudn the fuel pump and checked the wiring on it. Seemed fine.

I opened up around the steering column and found the PATS ring that goes around the ignition/ key and checked the connections there, seemed fine. Nothing else seemed strange there. All wiring looked fine...

Strange question. I have taken my console out recently. What is the blue box basically behind the little pocket on the console, below the head unit? Just curious. Behind the console I found a wire with a flat connector about 2 inches long by about a 1/4 inch that was not connected to anything. The wires come out from the same spot in the dash as the lighter power.

Any other ideas? A new diode and neutral safety switch will be here soon, probably tomorrow (I hope).

Does anyone know where the PCM is? PATS? Ignition switch? Any photos?

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help. I do appreciate it!

Originally posted by mean'tour:

I also tested the starter by taking a large piece of wire (piece of old jumper cable) and connected the small wire to the large wire on the starter and it cranked!! But no start. I juggled everything and made that connection, opened the throttle AND PRAYED all at once. But still NO GO!

I'll try the DANGEROUS way tonight.

What else should I be checking? I pulled the back seat and foudn the fuel pump and checked the wiring on it. Seemed fine.

I opened up around the steering column and found the PATS ring that goes around the ignition/ key and checked the connections there, seemed fine. Nothing else seemed strange there. All wiring looked fine...

Strange question. I have taken my console out recently. What is the blue box basically behind the little pocket on the console, below the head unit? Just curious. Behind the console I found a wire with a flat connector about 2 inches long by about a 1/4 inch that was not connected to anything. The wires come out from the same spot in the dash as the lighter power.

Any other ideas? A new diode and neutral safety switch will be here soon, probably tomorrow (I hope).

Does anyone know where the PCM is? PATS? Ignition switch? Any photos?

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help. I do appreciate it!

excellent.. thats all I can say for your testing and what you've found out. The tests you did prove that all the wiring between the starter and R6 & R6 and the battery is intact. And when you shorted the two wires at the starter and the engine cranked that prooves that the starter, its solenoid, the battery and the battery cable going to the starterare ok. So the search to find out why the starter isn't working has now become very narrow.

The only things in the system that we're not sure of now are the neutral safety switch, the diodes you are going to replace and R6. Like I said, just becasue a relay like R6 clicks doesn't mean that it is making the connection it is supposed to. You can test the relay by putting power to the two pins that lead to the coil inside and check the resistance through the other two pins but the meter usues a very low current to test resistance and its possible that the contacts are in a condition where they will allow the current from the meter to pass with low resistance but not allow enough current to pass for the solenoid on the starter to work

When you checked resistance between the battery and the small wire on the starter with R6 removed and the jumper wire in place that shows that all that wiring is intact. But the only thing that wasn't part of the test was R6, therefore it could be bad and we don't know. What I'm saying is that the only sure fire way to know is to replace R6.

I'm not sure where the PATS is located. The ignition switch is located in the steering column directly across from where the key goes. I think the PCM is under the hood under the power steering resivor. That connector you saw, I think that is used when the dealer connects diagnostic equipment.

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by mean'tour:

I also tested the starter by taking a large piece of wire (piece of old jumper cable) and connected the small wire to the large wire on the starter and it cranked!! But no start. I juggled everything and made that connection, opened the throttle AND PRAYED all at once. But still NO GO!

I'll try the DANGEROUS way tonight.

What else should I be checking? I pulled the back seat and foudn the fuel pump and checked the wiring on it. Seemed fine.

I opened up around the steering column and found the PATS ring that goes around the ignition/ key and checked the connections there, seemed fine. Nothing else seemed strange there. All wiring looked fine...

Strange question. I have taken my console out recently. What is the blue box basically behind the little pocket on the console, below the head unit? Just curious. Behind the console I found a wire with a flat connector about 2 inches long by about a 1/4 inch that was not connected to anything. The wires come out from the same spot in the dash as the lighter power.

Any other ideas? A new diode and neutral safety switch will be here soon, probably tomorrow (I hope).

Does anyone know where the PCM is? PATS? Ignition switch? Any photos?

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help. I do appreciate it!

excellent.. thats all I can say for your testing and what you've found out. The tests you did prove that all the wiring between the starter and R6 & R6 and the battery is intact. And when you shorted the two wires at the starter and the engine cranked that prooves that the starter, its solenoid, the battery and the battery cable going to the starterare ok. So the search to find out why the starter isn't working has now become very narrow.

The only things in the system that we're not sure of now are the neutral safety switch, the diodes you are going to replace and R6. Like I said, just becasue a relay like R6 clicks doesn't mean that it is making the connection it is supposed to. You can test the relay by putting power to the two pins that lead to the coil inside and check the resistance through the other two pins but the meter usues a very low current to test resistance and its possible that the contacts are in a condition where they will allow the current from the meter to pass with low resistance but not allow enough current to pass for the solenoid on the starter to work

When you checked resistance between the battery and the small wire on the starter with R6 removed and the jumper wire in place that shows that all that wiring is intact. But the only thing that wasn't part of the test was R6, therefore it could be bad and we don't know. What I'm saying is that the only sure fire way to know is to replace R6.

I'm not sure where the PATS is located. The ignition switch is located in the steering column directly across from where the key goes. I think the PCM is under the hood under the power steering resivor. That connector you saw, I think that is used when the dealer connects diagnostic equipment.

Wow, thanks again for all of your help.

I will wait for the diode and neutral safety switch and install them ASAP. I have a new R6, I'll put that in. Hopefully it will start then.

I'm still not getting and fuel pump noise. Any ideas of the cause there? Ignition switch? What does that look like? Brown circle about 2 inches across? Could it be PATS? I'm thinking No since my PATS led doesn't do anything strange when the key is in or out...

Here's my question for you... What's next? IF it still doesn't start with the new R6, diode and clutch switch? Hopefully it will at least crank at that point.

What's next?

I can't tell you how much help you have all been, especially JSmith. Thanks so much.

Originally posted by mean'tour:

What else should I be checking? I pulled the back seat and found the fuel pump and checked the wiring on it. Seemed fine.

I opened up around the steering column and found the PATS ring that goes around the ignition/ key and checked the connections there, seemed fine. Nothing else seemed strange there. All wiring looked fine...

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help. I do appreciate it!

I'm still not getting any fuel pump noise. Any ideas of the cause there? Ignition switch? What does that look like? Brown circle about 2 inches across?

Could it be PATS? I'm thinking No since my PATS led doesn't do anything strange when the key is in or out...

Here's my question for you... What's next? IF it still doesn't start with the new R6, diode and clutch switch? Hopefully it will at least crank at that point.

What's next?

I can't tell you how much help you have all been, especially JSmith. Thanks so much.

I quickly shot a few photos last night. Where is the ignition switch? Should I be thinking about replacing that? Might that be a likely suspect still?

Sorry not the greatest shots, it was a dark and stormy night...

I fixed one of your picture links (had too many "http"'s in it)
What is that switch for, next to your headlight switch/knob?

the ignition switch is the round brown object with about a half dozen wires coming from it going to the square light grey connector, it is directly inline with the ignition cyclinder

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
I fixed one of your picture links (had too many "http"'s in it)
What is that switch for, next to your headlight switch/knob?

Oops, thanks for the pic help.

That switch is for my secret weapon... I can't tell you, um as it's a secret.

Kidding... That's for the geeky airhorn I installed over the winter. I am still looking for a different switch I want more of a push button, but it works fine.

Originally posted by BrApple:
the ignition switch is the round brown object with about a half dozen wires coming from it going to the square light grey connector, it is directly inline with the ignition cyclinder

I'm kind of lost a little at this point. Might the ignition switch still be a culprit? Since the fuel pump is not activating as well as the starter circuit?

Originally posted by mean'tour:

I'm kind of lost a little at this point. Might the ignition switch still be a culprit? Since the fuel pump is not activating as well as the starter circuit?

Its possible becasue its a common link in the two.

There are so many different systems that the fuel pump is associated with that every one of them would have to be checked and at the rate we've been going and the equipment you have on hand it could take weeks to find the source. The only thing we can do easily is to check the obvious things like relays, fuses, looking for voltages at connectors and trying what Elky suggested to see if the pump tries to run. The fuel pump is tied in with the PCM and that gets inputs from all over on the car and on the engine and a fault in any one sensor or input into the PCM can affect the operation of the fuel pump.

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by mean'tour:

I'm kind of lost a little at this point. Might the ignition switch still be a culprit? Since the fuel pump is not activating as well as the starter circuit?

Its possible becasue its a common link in the two.

There are so many different systems that the fuel pump is associated with that every one of them would have to be checked and at the rate we've been going and the equipment you have on hand it could take weeks to find the source. The only thing we can do easily is to check the obvious things like relays, fuses, looking for voltages at connectors and trying what Elky suggested to see if the pump tries to run. The fuel pump is tied in with the PCM and that gets inputs from all over on the car and on the engine and a fault in any one sensor or input into the PCM can affect the operation of the fuel pump.

Thanks again. Is there anyway to run a PCM test?

Or are you thinking I should just take it in? Would I need to go to a Ford dealer? Or just an indy shop?

I'm going to wait for those parts from Bill, and see if there are any changes. I may run to a j-yard and grab an ignition switch as well. Check some more fuses...

You can do some checks of the PCM on your own but for most of them the engine needs to be running. The testing procedure to isolate a problem in a system that interfaces with the PCM is about 2 pages long in the Haynes manual. The magnitude of the testing that needs to be done and the lack of specialized equipment is why I'm suggesting we keep to simple checks of the fuel pump circuit. Checking relays, fuses, looking for voltages at all the connectors that carry the power that feeds the fuel pump starting at the pump and working back twords the PCM. Hopefully that will identify the acutal problem or at least point to a general area. Hopefully if we do that we can fix it or at least know the general area that needs to be checked this way you might be able to get the car into an indy shop and tell them the problem is in a certain general area rather than just saying, "my fuel pump doesn't work." Since you've already done the bulk of the troubleshooting yourself you might be able to save some cash.

If your fuel pump worked when you turned the key on then the search would be fairly quick, but if the pump doesn't work when you turn the key on, the list grows to about as long as your arm of things that could be wrong.

For the home mechanic it will take a long time to test for faults in any system that interfaces with the PCM. A ford dealer will probably have on site or at least be obtainable to them the testing equipment that would do literally days of manual testing in a matter of minutes.

The starter has been easy to test with simple equipment becasue first, the system doesn't interface with the PCM. Second, the circuitry is simple and consists of mechanical switches, relays, fuses, a solenoid, one transisorized circuit (PATS) and a diode.

I hope you understand that I'm not trying to be-little or discourage you, its just that I want to make sure you understand that trying to find out why the fuel pump isn't running could end up being a long process that makes the starter problem we're looking into seem like a walk in the park. At the same time, be optimistic that the reason the fuel pump isn't working could be something simple like a bad relay, a loose connection or the pump is just at the end of its life.

J,

No, I don't think you are trying to discourage or belittle. You have been GREAT! You are probably right, I don't really want to give up but probably should. It's coming up on 3 weeks now. I will replace those few little parts that are coming and try to do some testing of the fuel pump circuit and then, if still no luck, take it somewhere.

Would it be better to go to a Ford dealer? What if it is PATS related? Aren't they the only ones that mess with PATS?

Quick related question: Ignition switch. Do all models and years use the same switch? The easiest pick-a-part place for me to go to doesn't have many 98+'s, and no 98+'s with the V6. Another place does, but it is farther.

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
J,

No, I don't think you are trying to discourage or belittle. You have been GREAT! You are probably right, I don't really want to give up but probably should. It's coming up on 3 weeks now. I will replace those few little parts that are coming and try to do some testing of the fuel pump circuit and then, if still no luck, take it somewhere.

Would it be better to go to a Ford dealer? What if it is PATS related? Aren't they the only ones that mess with PATS?

Quick related question: Ignition switch. Do all models and years use the same switch? The easiest pick-a-part place for me to go to doesn't have many 98+'s, and no 98+'s with the V6. Another place does, but it is farther.

i think that they are the same, i put one in my car from a SVT but I don't recall what year it came from, I used it so I wouldn't have to hack up my stock one for the alarm that I installed

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
J,

No, I don't think you are trying to discourage or belittle. You have been GREAT! You are probably right, I don't really want to give up but probably should. It's coming up on 3 weeks now. I will replace those few little parts that are coming and try to do some testing of the fuel pump circuit and then, if still no luck, take it somewhere.

Would it be better to go to a Ford dealer? What if it is PATS related? Aren't they the only ones that mess with PATS?

Quick related question: Ignition switch. Do all models and years use the same switch? The easiest pick-a-part place for me to go to doesn't have many 98+'s, and no 98+'s with the V6. Another place does, but it is farther.

i think that they are the same, i put one in my car from a SVT but I don't recall what year it came from, I used it so I wouldn't have to hack up my stock one for the alarm that I installed

Ok great thanks. I guess I could double check by looking at the #'s on the item, right?

It was nice to see you and your girlfriend again. Sorry if my little guy drove you all nuts!

yes you should be able to compair the part numbers but they may or may not be similar.

for the record, I normally can't stand being around kids.
Tate was fun. I wasn't driven nuts at all.
Dino was pooped out, that's about it, as far as I could tell.

I think I was more disturbed by the whirlwind of females that broke up our little get-together (and pigged out!)
And thanks to Cobra's observation, I need to check myself at get-togethers because I'm apparently just as obnoxious.
lol

hehe
Tate was fine.
Jess' sisters and cousins on the other hand...
her cousins especially have no manners at all.

kim, what were you doing that was so bad?
i musta missed it!

Originally posted by ElKy da Stalker:

kim, what were you doing that was so bad?
i musta missed it!

He used their behavior as a "see, that's how you are sometimes" lesson.

hahah
thats funny

Oh man, I missed a bunch of young ladies. Was the one with the huge jugs from your b/d party there? lol...

that would be ashley, and yes she was there.

Originally posted by ElKy da Stalker:
that would be ashley, and yes she was there.

All right you bunch of thread jackers! I expect you all to be at my house on Saturday morning and you can't leave until my car starts and runs!!!!

Funny that ElKy knew just who was being referred to with the jugs comment...

well, hell. with double D's, who else could he be talking about?

Originally posted by ElKy da Stalker:
well, hell. with double D's, who else could he be talking about?

Yeah, I guess.

So, a few parts will be here today. I have a replacement diode and a Neutral safety switch coming from Bill. I will put them in tonight and PRAY! IF that doesn't work, I'm going to run out and pull an ignition switch from a junker. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll push it to a local mechanic's place.

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
So, a few parts will be here today. I have a replacement diode and a Neutral safety switch coming from Bill. I will put them in tonight and PRAY! IF that doesn't work, I'm going to run out and pull an ignition switch from a junker. If that doesn't work, I guess I'll push it to a local mechanic's place.

No go. I replaced those parts... I also tried JSmith's dangerous DO NOT TRY THIS test. The starter cranks fine it just won't start.

I guess I'll try an ignition switch and then call it quits. I'm really getting sick of this.

I'm so sorry that you are having all this trouble.

I've been following this thread since the beginning. Each time I check up on your progress I am hoping that I'll find that you got everything straightened out.

You sir have more patients than I do. I would have sent it sailing over a cliff by now.

I hope, as you do, that you get this worked out soon!! My fingers are crossed.

[quote=Bicycle commuter

No go. I replaced those parts... I also tried JSmith's dangerous DO NOT TRY THIS test. The starter cranks fine it just won't start.

I guess I'll try an ignition switch and then call it quits. I'm really getting sick of this.

The only components left out of the do not try this test are R6, the ignition switch and the PATS system.

There is a test you can do that will confirm wether PATS is the problem or the ignition switch is the problem by doing this: With the ignition switch electrical connector disconnected use a short piece of wire to short out the sockets with the red and grey/white wires of the connector that is part of the car's wiring. Doing this will make the connection that the switch makes when you turn the key to "start"

According to the haynes manual there should be 5 wires at from the ignition switch. red, green, grey/white, yellow and red/yellow.

Red wire has power from the battery at all times and should have battery voltage.

Green wire goes to the ignition relay which, when energized makes power available to all the circuits related to the engine running including the fuel pump. You can use the wire and make a connection on the conector between red and green and the lights and chimes should come on and if its working the fuel pump should run for 1 to 2 seconds.

Grey/white wire is the wire that sends power to R6 when you turn the key to start

red/yellow is for lighting like the headlights and the hazard flashers, interior lights

Yellow wire goes to the anti-theft/PATS, door ajar warnings, keyless entry, stereo.

Originally posted by LUCA:
I'm so sorry that you are having all this trouble.

I've been following this thread since the beginning. Each time I check up on your progress I am hoping that I'll find that you got everything straightened out.

You sir have more patience than I do. I would have sent it sailing over a cliff by now.

I hope, as you do, that you get this worked out soon!! My fingers are crossed.

Thanks! I appreciate that. If I could get it running there have been times when I might have looked for a cliff!

Originally posted by JSmith:

The only components left out of the do not try this test are R6, the ignition switch and the PATS system.

There is a test you can do that will confirm whether PATS is the problem or the ignition switch is the problem by doing this: With the ignition switch electrical connector disconnected use a short piece of wire to short out the sockets with the red and grey/white wires of the connector that is part of the car's wiring. Doing this will make the connection that the switch makes when you turn the key to "start" NO GO== Makes no sounds. A whole lotta nothing!

According to the haynes manual there should be 5 wires at from the ignition switch. red, green, grey/white, yellow and red/yellow.

Red wire has power from the battery at all times and should have battery voltage. I couldn't get my meter to read this, but I may not have grounded it correctly.

Green wire goes to the ignition relay which, when energized makes power available to all the circuits related to the engine running including the fuel pump. You can use the wire and make a connection on the conector between red and green and the lights and chimes should come on and if its working the fuel pump should run for 1 to 2 seconds. This worked fine, ding ding ding, etc. . I'm still not sure the fuel pump is running, I didn't hear it.

Grey/white wire is the wire that sends power to R6 when you turn the key to start

red/yellow is for lighting like the headlights and the hazard flashers, interior lights

Yellow wire goes to the anti-theft/PATS, door ajar warnings, keyless entry, stereo.

I did the above electrical ignition switch testing. I also replaced the switch with one from a junker.

So am I looking at a PATS problem?

I watched the led as I was trying to start the car, and it never did anything unusual. Just flashed every 2 seconds or so.

If so, does it need to go to a Dealer? Or can an indy do it?

I remember when I had keys made for my Contour I didn't know about the PATS and the keys weren't programmed into the system. I went to start the car and the starter cranked the engine but it never fired up. The PATS disables the ignition and/or the fuel.

The fuel pump can be hard to hear. It only runs one to two seconds, not very long and the sound of the chimes inside the car can drown it out. Some are quieter than others depending mostly on how much fuel is in the tank and the condition of the pump. If the tank is full the fuel will prevent the tank from vibrating with the motor and it will sound quieter. This auto-run of the fuel pump for a second or so when you turn the key is supposed to work every time you turn the key on, but you need to wait a little bit before trying it again so the system can reset.

If using a jumper wire from the red wire to the grey/white on the connector to the ignition switch and nothing happened then that means that the problem, what ever it is, lies between the ignition switch and R6. The only thing in the grey/white wire between the ignition switch and R6 is the starter relay diode. Test the positive and negative circuits between the ignition switch and R6 like this. (1) Check the resistance on the socket that pin 1 of R6 fits into and the negative battery cable. (2) make sure you remember how it came out and remove the starter relay diode and put a jumper in its place, remove the connector from the ignition switch and check the resistance between the socket on the ignition switch connector for the grey/white wire and the socket that pin 2 of R6 fits into.

If you made the connection between the red and green wires and you had dash lights and you heard some chimes going when you did then that means that the red wire indeed has battery power going to it.

From what I gather from reading the wiring schematics there are no electronic control units (computers) involved in the starter circuit.

The fuel pump circuitry, It would be about a whole page to list all the things that are involved in the operation of the fuel pump, not to mention that 2 computers are also involved in it, the PCU and the ECU. Here's a list of the circuit controls in the system there are, relays: R16, R11, R8; Fuses: 1,2,4,9,10,14 and 30.

I might have an easy way to check if the fuel pump is working. Turn on ignition switch then under the hood, locate the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks like tire valve stem but chrome plated. If the fuel pump is working, you'll get a shot of pressurized gas as you dpressed the valve. Only do this for a split second as you don't want a fire hazard.

Originally posted by Mustang:
I might have an easy way to check if the fuel pump is working. Turn on ignition switch then under the hood, locate the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks like tire valve stem but chrome plated. If the fuel pump is working, you'll get a shot of pressurized gas as you dpressed the valve. Only do this for a split second as you don't want a fire hazard.

wouldn't you be better off connecting a fuel pressure gage in that case then

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Mustang:
I might have an easy way to check if the fuel pump is working. Turn on ignition switch then under the hood, locate the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks like tire valve stem but chrome plated. If the fuel pump is working, you'll get a shot of pressurized gas as you dpressed the valve. Only do this for a split second as you don't want a fire hazard.

wouldn't you be better off connecting a fuel pressure gage in that case then

I'm sure the pressure gauge would be best. But I think that Mustang realized that I'm a n00b and most likely wouldn't have access to a fuel pressure gauge and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Mustang:
I might have an easy way to check if the fuel pump is working. Turn on ignition switch then under the hood, locate the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks like tire valve stem but chrome plated. If the fuel pump is working, you'll get a shot of pressurized gas as you dpressed the valve. Only do this for a split second as you don't want a fire hazard.

wouldn't you be better off connecting a fuel pressure gage in that case then

I'm sure the pressure gauge would be best. But I think that Mustang realized that I'm a n00b and most likely wouldn't have access to a fuel pressure gauge and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.

Well I give up. We are having the car towed to a mechanic's that we know, he has worked on it before (too much...). He seems to think that maybe I knocked something loose when I was trying to fix the CEL, the thing that started all of this.

We'll see what he says. He says that he doubts it is PATS but if it is a FORD dealer needs to do the work.

Thanks for all of the help and suggestions. I have really tried on this. I will let you know what he finds. JSmith has been AWESOME! Thanks so much.

good luck with the car, hope to see it at the next meet!

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Mustang:
I might have an easy way to check if the fuel pump is working. Turn on ignition switch then under the hood, locate the schrader valve on the fuel rail. It looks like tire valve stem but chrome plated. If the fuel pump is working, you'll get a shot of pressurized gas as you dpressed the valve. Only do this for a split second as you don't want a fire hazard.

wouldn't you be better off connecting a fuel pressure gage in that case then

I'm sure the pressure gauge would be best. But I think that Mustang realized that I'm a n00b and most likely wouldn't have access to a fuel pressure gauge and wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.

After all you've been through, not exactly a noob by any means! You got a ton on good advise and followed through admirably

Good luck and I hope it get fixed

I'm probably just as curious as you are to learn what they find out about your car.

I'm happy we could be helpful. I wasn't the only one, there were alot of people chiming in with their ideas too.

Just before you do tow it. I would go threw the engine bay and press on harness connectors, sensor connectors. and even shake harness while someone cranks car to see if it fires up.. I've done this to 2 cars, and had luck on my side because they started right after.

Originally posted by JSmith:
I'm probably just as curious as you are to learn what they find out about your car.

I'm happy we could be helpful. I wasn't the only one, there were alot of people chiming in with their ideas too.

I will definitely post the diagnosis.

THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP!

Originally posted by jd28:
Just before you do tow it. I would go threw the engine bay and press on harness connectors, sensor connectors. and even shake harness while someone cranks car to see if it fires up.. I've done this to 2 cars, and had luck on my side because they started right after.

I have checked every connection I could think of or see over the past 3 weeks.

I really appreciate your offer. Just to let everyone know, jd28 offered to come by my house and take a look at it sometime in the next few weeks. I thought that was SUPER nice.

Thanks again everyone. I will post ASAP with a diagnosis.

good luck meng.
wish i could have come down at some point to help out.

Originally posted by ElKy:
good luck meng.
wish i could have come down at some point to help out.

Yeah, me too

I'm kidding. Thanks for all of your suggestions as well!

So, our mechanic has been working on it on and off for the past day or so. I just spoke with him, I didn't get specifics (he was on another line) but he said he had a few other things to check, but kind of thought it might be the PATS.

Anyone know much about this? Can I just bypass it? Or disable it? I called the nearest Ford dealer to our shop (Pride Ford in N. Attleboro - which we have had bad experiences with and so has our mechanic) and tried to get a rough estimate... He said it could be as simple as a new key and programming ($140) and then up. A few hundred dollars was all I could get out of him if the whole unit needed replacing.

Does that sound about right? Is there anything I should try before taking there (I don't want to take it anywhere, ESPECIALLY there, but we are paying for the tows... and it's just 2 or 3 miles)? Should I buy a couple ebay keys and have them cut and go through the reprogramming instructions? We do have 2 good keys, well I think they are good...

I dunno, to me, that doesn't make sense.
If you've already got 2 keys and they don't work, then reprogramming a key off of them won't work.
Sounds like your keys aren't being recognized by the car, but what do I know.

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
I dunno, to me, that doesn't make sense.
If you've already got 2 keys and they don't work, then reprogramming a key off of them won't work.
Sounds like your keys aren't being recognized by the car, but what do I know.

Yeah, I'm sure you are right. I'm still just grasping at straws because I really don't want to take it to Pride...

try and reprogram your current keys..
maybe they lost the program somehow.

or doe the pats work by recognizing a specific key?

i dont know much about the pats.

Originally posted by ElKy:
try and reprogram your current keys..
maybe they lost the program somehow.

or doe the pats work by recognizing a specific key?

i dont know much about the pats.

to program new keys yourself you need two working keys, but since this is a 98 you might be able to use one key. also they key doesn't get programmed, the PATs system is set up to recognize the key as the key is passive so it can't be programed. I am currently using a set of keys from a 98 SVT that I programmed for my car! if the keys don't work then the dealer would ahve to go into the PATs module and set it back up and program the keys into it, I have heard this takes an hour to do

how far is the next closest dealership?

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
how far is the next closest dealership?

Not sure. A ways...

Yo Mikey... Rodman isn't that far. It's right up route one across from the stadium. I don't know how much of a difference it would make in towing though. But it very well might be worth it because it is never worth bringing your car to Pride. WAY too many bad experiences...

As far as I know you do need to have two keys that the PATS recognizes in order to program in another. If you don't have two then the PATS computer in the car needs to be reconfigured and the equipment to do that is a dealer only unit. You can't buy one, a non-dealer shop can't buy one, even a towing company can't buy one.

I had to have the PATS reprogrammed on my SVT. I waited about 30 min. but it took them about 10 min. and the guy in the parts room did it. Its just a matter of hooking the unit up to the connector inside the car, and putting one key in the ignition and turn it on, then do the same with the next key and so on for as many keys as there are.

My Haynes manual doesn't even mention a PATS system. I don't have a CD-ROM manual so I can't say if there is anything about PATS in there.

Originally posted by cannondalemtb:
Yo Mikey... Rodman isn't that far. It's right up route one across from the stadium. I don't know how much of a difference it would make in towing though. But it very well might be worth it because it is never worth bringing your car to Pride. WAY too many bad experiences...

That's true, I had forgotten about that one. I'll mention that to Jason. He had mentioned how little he liked Pride.

I was thinking Milford or Westboro were the other closest dealers. I wish I could get it here to Westboro, as it would be easy to ride to work, then ride down there, pick it up and drive home. (Assuming it will ever drive again!)

Called the shop on the way home. It is the "alarm thingie" he says. One of his guys ran a bunch of tests (he couldn't tell me specifically what) but the starter and fuel pump are not getting power.

I don't know what else to do. I guess we will have him tow it to a Ford dealer.

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
Called the shop on the way home. It is the "alarm thingie" he says. One of his guys ran a bunch of tests (he couldn't tell me specifically what) but the starter and fuel pump are not getting power.

I don't know what else to do. I guess we will have him tow it to a Ford dealer.

So I called him back and got our total $$. He is charging for the tows (to him and from him to Ford) but not too bad. For all the testing etc. he is only charging $25. I said "are you sure" (stupid thing to say), he said well we didn't really fix anything...

Called the Ford Dealer to have them expect it. I told the service guy what was going on and what I had replaced. He didn't seem to care. I told him we suspected PATS, he said it couldn't be that since if it is PATS it will still crank, it just shuts down fuel and spark.

I'm getting really frustrated by all of this. I guess we will see what they say. They might be able to find time to look at it tomorrow.

I'm sorry but the car will not crank if you don't have a working PATs key as it reads the key in the run position before you read the start position, this happened when I was programming my keys, the PATs led went crazy and the car didn't crank ...

hell when I get home I will try starting my car with a non-pats key and I will let you know what happens ...

Originally posted by BrApple:
I'm sorry but the car will not crank if you don't have a working PATs key as it reads the key in the run position before you read the start position, this happened when I was programming my keys, the PATs led went crazy and the car didn't crank ...

hell when I get home I will try starting my car with a non-pats key and I will let you know what happens ...

Great. Well it was just a dumb a@# service advisor... Maybe I'll run down there (30 minute drive) tonight and try to reprogram the keys. I do have 2 working, well they used to work...

according to the wiring schematics the wire from the ignition switch to the starter relay is direct and doesn't interfacce with any other systems.

ok, here is the deal ... from what I can tell PATs is only used upon startup, the car will run once started without a PATs key. What I also found out was you can start the car with a non-PATs key if you do it soon enough after starting the car with the PATs key.

with the PATs key the led will go solid for about 3 seconds then turn off when the ignition is turned to the run position, then the car starts normally.

with out a PATs key the led wil blink rapidy and the car will not start after runign the key into the run postion, like I heard my fuel pump prime but that was cut off then the PATs kicked in, the car then acts like it has a dead battery kinda, the lights and all come on but it doesn't start

Brian,

Thanks for checking all of that. I just don't know what is wrong, and can't think about it any more. It's just freaking me out.

I will post what the Ford dealer says it is.

If it is too much $$ and/ or I can't fix it myself, I guess we are done with the Contour. I love the car and always have, but I just can't keep putting $$ into it. I know it will probably need suspension work sometime soon... there seems to be always something.

My wife's uncle has some sort of Pontiac he would let us have cheap, I think it only needs a battery.

A 'mean tour' it has been.

I've been keeping track of this topic, hoping each day you'd resolve the issues ...

I just hope it's not PCM related. I think the PATs it built into the PCM, maybe a voltage missing or ground problem would be nice, but from what I've been reading PCM replacement and a key reprogramming unless somehow they r able to get the key coding out of the old PCM which the software/equipment they use should be able to do. If it's the PATS system. Maybe a break in the RF return to the PCM.

Originally posted by jd28:
I just hope it's not PCM related. I think the PATs it built into the PCM, maybe a voltage missing or ground problem would be nice, but from what I've been reading PCM replacement and a key reprogramming unless somehow they r able to get the key coding out of the old PCM which the software/equipment they use should be able to do. If it's the PATS system. Maybe a break in the RF return to the PCM.

the 98 had PATs external to the PCM so you could swap the PCM and not need to have the keys programmed, after 98 it was move to be internal to the PCM

Originally posted by jd28:
I just hope it's not PCM related. I think the PATs it built into the PCM, maybe a voltage missing or ground problem would be nice, but from what I've been reading PCM replacement and a key reprogramming unless somehow they r able to get the key coding out of the old PCM which the software/equipment they use should be able to do. If it's the PATS system. Maybe a break in the RF return to the PCM.

Let's hope for something small. I'm afraid that the shyster dealership it is at, there is no such thing as a small simple problem.

Originally posted by Rouar:
A 'mean tour' it has been. I've been keeping track of this topic, hoping each day you'd resolve the issues ...

Yeah, it has been a little unhappy lately! Thanks for your good vibes!

Originally posted by jd28:
I just hope it's not PCM related. I think the PATs it built into the PCM, maybe a voltage missing or ground problem would be nice, but from what I've been reading PCM replacement and a key reprogramming unless somehow they r able to get the key coding out of the old PCM which the software/equipment they use should be able to do. If it's the PATS system. Maybe a break in the RF return to the PCM.

They just called. They are saying that my PCM needs to be replaced -- $800. The tech also feels there may be a wiring harness problem, but can't tell for sure until the computer is replaced.

What do I do? Can I replace the computer? J-yard? Bill? ($280 plus core) Can I do it myself?

**EDIT** I just called him back. He said that they know there is some sort of wiring problem because they couldn't even get connected to the computer until they wiggled some wires around... So once replace the computer, they can quickly narrow down the bad wire/short/ connector etc. that is bad. Might be $100 - 200 additional.

Any ideas? I probably already owe them $100 for the diagnosis.

For the $1000 they want, that might be it for my Contour. If we knew it would just be the $1000 we would probably do it. It's the iffy-ness of $800 now and then we can figure out the other problem. Maybe $100 but maybe... $800?

hold on a minute, if they know there is a wiring problem why in the hell would they still need to change the PCM

I would tell them to [censored] replacing the PCM and have them fix the wiring, if they got it to work that has to mean they are close to the problem spot

otherwise verify that you have external PATs and find a PCM in a junk yard and replace at a fraction of the cost, they seem to run about $75 to $100 and I was looking at a SVT one ...

edit: sorry I am a bit ticked as I think about this more, how in the hell can they say that you need a new PCM if it only works when they move some wires around, I mean hello that tells me there is a problem with the wiring not necassary the PCM. get the wiring to work first then test the PCM, [censored] morons ... of course the PCM will not work it there is a wiring problem

Originally posted by BrApple:
hold on a minute, if they know there is a wiring problem why in the hell would they still need to change the PCM I would tell them to [censored] replacing the PCM and have them fix the wiring, if they got it to work that has to mean they are close to the problem spot

otherwise verify that you have external PATs and find a PCM in a junk yard and replace at a fraction of the cost, they seem to run about $75 to $100 and I was looking at a SVT one ...

edit: sorry I am a bit ticked as I think about this more, how in the hell can they say that you need a new PCM if it only works when they move some wires around, I mean hello that tells me there is a problem with the wiring not necassary the PCM. get the wiring to work first then test the PCM, [censored] morons ... of course the PCM will not work it there is a wiring problem

I have to call him back in a minute to ask him something.

Anyone have any specific questions I should ask? I'm going to ask him to explain what they did and how they know it is the ECM.

** I just called him. They couldn't get any info. from the computer, whatever wire is causing the problem shorted outt he computer. By moving some wires around they were able to get a bit of a spark (he said) and read that the computer is no good. **

Could a computer on it's way out, or being shorted out have been causing my CEL's?

It's been my experience that Ford dealerships don't like fixing pieces, they just replace entire parts to correct problems.

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
It's been my experience that Ford dealerships don't like fixing pieces, they just replace entire parts to correct problems.

well in terms of some parts that is a good idea ...

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
It's been my experience that Ford dealerships don't like fixing pieces, they just replace entire parts to correct problems.

well in terms of some parts that is a good idea ...

I agree.
I didn't mean to sound like I was dissing Ford service or anything.

Originally posted by frenchblueC2:
It's been my experience that Ford dealerships don't like fixing pieces, they just replace entire parts to correct problems.

Well, I hope that is not true if and when they start looking for my bad wire. I WON'T put $500 - 700 into a wiring harness.

I've had a feeling that it was a wiring problem all along becasue of the nature of how your car was acting prior to its complete failures. The PCM wouldn't do that, it would just die all of a sudden, not just little things here and then having problems.

I want to that it is very possible that what ever problem there is may have shorted out wires that has casued the PCM to fail or burn out becasue of the short. But if there is short or other problem that led to the failure of the PCM then what ever they put in wether new or used replacement its reasonable for me to believe that the one they install will also fry. IF you go the route of having them replace the PCM make sure that you get in writing, on dealership letterhead signed by the general manager and the service manager that if they replace the PCM for troubleshooting pourposes and the replacement fails due to what ever problem there is you will receive another replacement at no cost to you what so ever including both parts and labor.

The reaosn I am confident that it may be a wiring problem is becasue I remember something publication from FORD, wether a TSB or recall for wiring harnesses on Contours up to a certain model year had a problem of the wiring insulation degrading and failing over time due to a poor insulation material. If this was a recall and your car was part of it, has not been accomplished yet and the recall is still active you may be able to get the harness replaced for free under the recall, and you could go as far as to say that the PCM failed due to the faulty harness and be able to get all of this fixed at no cost..... But, I'll say it again, But all this hinges on (1) I am corect, which I am not sure of and (2) wether there was actually a recall and if so, wether it was performed or not and if it is still active.

the recall for for 95 to 97 V6 contours, does not apply to the 98 but it seems that some 98s ended up with the left over "bad" harnesses

also I do not believe it is still active

Get it back, pay the 100, and I'll take a ride up any day you want and help ya go over it. I doubt the PCM is dead. They just want to bend ya over.

I was just thinking too. loose solder joint in the PCM, about 75% of electronic repair I did was solder joints. Should of suggested tapping on PCM while cranking.. Poo

Originally posted by jd28:
I was just thinking too. loose solder joint in the PCM, about 75% of electronic repair I did was solder joints. Should of suggested tapping on PCM while cranking.. Poo

Its very likely that a loose solder joint could be the casue but the internal circuitry of the PCM is almost certainly potted with epoxy for environmental and vibration protection and if so even being able to see any part of the PCM would be next to impossible.

They just want you to spring for a new PCM so this way they can be certain that the PCM is good. Then they will go from there to locate the fault or faults in the harness if there are any. I have heard several stories where Contours suddenly stop running and there are all sorts of indications on the test equipment of what it wrong. They replace the PCM and everything is fine.

If there is a problem with the harness itself it may actually be less expensive to just all out replace the entire harness rather than pay for the labor rerquired to individually test each wire to find the one that is faulty. If the PCM is the fault, I agree that $800 is a very expensive shot in the dark and if taking a shot in the dark is the plan then maybe using a second hand PCM from a salvage yard might be the way to go since there is no guarantee that it will be the cure-all solution.

Perhaps you can meet with the service manager and see if you can reason with them. Tell that you agree that replacing the PCM is a viable way to speed the troubleshooting process and that one unit may be the lone source of the probelm. But express that you are not willing to open you wallet for an $800 shot in the dark. Its worth seeing if they will make a WRITTEN deal with you that if replacing the PCM solves the problem you will pay for it and if it is not the problem then they pay for it. If they are not willing to cooperate with you then you'll need to explore other options.

From my point of view, for $800 you can go into the newspaper and find some beater that might have a smell in the interior and aybe burns a little oil, but it gets you back on the road for a year or maybe more. Plus while you own it you can do a few odds and ends and then when you decide to you can resell it for $500 and basically break even on the deal.

I have a PCM but it's from an SVT. If you think it will work you are welcome to it. I can grab the numbers off of it for you if you'd like.

Originally posted by LUCA:
I have a PCM but it's from an SVT. If you think it will work you are welcome to it. I can grab the numbers off of it for you if you'd like.

Thanks for the offer, that is nice. I have no idea if it will work or not. I think not. I spoke with Bill in Vegas yesterday and he said there are many different ECU and he needs a VIN # to get the correct one.

But thanks anyway.

Originally posted by LUCA:
I have a PCM but it's from an SVT. If you think it will work you are welcome to it. I can grab the numbers off of it for you if you'd like.

it it is a RJL1 that it will drop right into a early 98 Contour and you will be good to go, although you will after soem time get a CEL for fuel trim at idle, the proper SVT injectors will fox that

Here is my plan. I am going to call the original shop (we kind of trust him) and see what he thinks of Ford's diagnosis. He was supposed to have checked everything but PATS.

Does anyone know if the PATS on my car (1998, 4/98 build date) is part of the ECU?

Then I'm going to run by the Ford dealer and talk with them. First I want to see how much of the $800 is parts. I can get a new ECU from Bill for $280 (plus core). If they are charging me $400- 500 or more for the part...

While I'm there I'm going to try and get some guarantees. Some limit on the cost. Some guarantee that if the new ECU blows while they are trying to figure out the wiring problem, it won't be MY problem.

Can I replace the ECU myself? Where is it? Is it beneath the power steering reservoir? Is it pretty easy to pull and replace? I'm wondering if I ought to pay them the $100 diagnostic fee, get the $280 computer from Bill, put it in myself in the Ford parking lot, and then tell them to take a look at the wiring problem...

This just sucks. Maybe JSmith is right. My wife's uncle has a very cheap Pontiac (I4 150k miles) I could drive tomorrow. I'm wondering about the devil you know versus the one you don't though.

from what I have read after 2/98 build dates the PATs went internal to the PCM, so that deal would have to program teh keys once the new PCM went in

yes it is below the power steering resivor and it is pretty quick and easy to get to

But remember my offer does stand if you get it back. I get out of work at 4pm everyday and wouldn't mind at all coming up to help ya try and figure it out. Let me know

well I was just going through my 99 Ford service CD and they have a pin point test for a no start condition. I believe I answered all the questions correctly based on what you have said in this thread and it directed to replace the pcm

I don't remember the name of the site but it has been posted a few times but you can download the Ford Sevice cds and this has the pinpoint tests

Originally posted by BrApple:
well I was just going through my 99 Ford service CD and they have a pin point test for a no start condition. I believe I answered all the questions correctly based on what you have said in this thread and it directed to replace the pcm

I don't remember the name of the site but it has been posted a few times but you can download the Ford Sevice cds and this has the pinpoint tests

just thinking about it more and some of the pin point tests were about fuel pressure and I am not sure that you were able to check that ... I would still try to find the 98 Service CD online and check it out

Thanks again everyone I appreciate all of the help.

I called our mechanic yesterday morning and just kind of told him what Ford was telling me. I sort of trust him since I know he is not a friend to this Ford dealership...

I asked if they tested the PCM. He said they tried, but couldn't get any signal from it. So that added up to him. Plus the PATS is part of the computer.

I then stopped by the Ford dealer and talked with a Service writer guy. He wsa super nice. The $793 I was quoted included the diagnostics, new PCM and install and some wiring harness (it said something about fuse box) and install. So it was more than I thought. I told him to go for it.

Then on the way to the Mystic aquarium with the kids (they LOVED it- it was my daughters first time) I called him back twice to ask questions. One was about PATS, and he said that Yes they will program the new computer to our keys.

I also MADE SURE they he knew they weren't to go any farther. If they do this work and replace these parts and still no go, then we have a big decision to make. I told him to make it work though!

Anyway, thanks again. I truly do appreciate all of the suggestions and offers of help. I will post again when there is news. Hopefully I will drive to work on Thursday...

yay good luck mang!

man I feel like I shouldn't of said PCM....

Once this is done, I will help you NP with suspension, have everything to do it

So I called the dealership on the way home to get a status report. Didn't Jason call you? The PCM is backordered, it will be at least 5 days.

fartknockers!

Originally posted by ElKy:
fartknockers!

Yeah, what he said!

figures

Originally posted by JSmith:
figures

Yeah. I'm really getting tired of this now. What am I supposed to do tomorrow? It's a 35-40 minute drive to work. I need to be there at 8am (earlier is fine). My son needs to be at school (near home) at 8:30am. So I guess I have to get everyone up at out of the house dressed for school by 7am?

I've been riding my bike on School days, but it is supposed to rain the rest of this week.

I'm really getting sick of this. I probably won't even remember how to drive a stick.

Not that this is the Ford dealers fault, I'm just getting really tired of this.

I can imagine. You've had the patiance of a saint all though this.

The fact that they couldn't call you and tell you this is what rubs me the wrong way. Thats just a lack of responsibility.

Originally posted by JSmith:
I can imagine. You've had the patiance of a saint all though this.

The fact that they couldn't call you and tell you this is what rubs me the wrong way. Thats just a lack of responsibility.

Yeah they suck. I really wanted to take care of this myself. Again, thanks to everyone for all of their help and suggestions!

I called today, the part is no longer on back order status and should be here by Monday. THEN the fun begins!

So... I've been getting the "I'm the night guy and can't find your paperwork. The Tech that was working on your car is gone for the day. The Service advisor is gone for the day. I apologize, but the best thing for you to do is to call back in the morning" for the past 2 nights.

I called yesterday morning and the computer had just arrived. Someone was going to work on it during the day, but the night guy ??? I'm on the phone now. PRIDE FORD SUX! He started installing the PCM last night, I'll give you a call later in the day. I know they are going to say wiring harness.

What will that cost? Labor?

I'm getting so sick of this. I'm getting sick of just not knowing. I'm getting tired of waiting for the other shoe to drop and have them tell me that you just spent/owe us $800 and your car will still not start. If you REALLY want it to start you will need to give us more $$.

Tell them if you wanted to aimlessly throw parts you could of done that yourself cheaper. You took it too them thinking they would have a logical troubleshooting method that would of told them wire or pcm... IMHO they should of pulled the harness, and bench tested each wire, and no that wouldn't take more than an 1hour.

So here is the next chapter in the story. Supposedly they called me at work yesterday afternoon. No missed call, no voicemail. I am having some cell phone troubles, so if they called that # then maybe...

Anyway, so they called my wife. The message is that they ordered the wrong computer. Yes, that is right, the backordered computer we had to wait a week for was the WRONG ONE! They ordered the correct one (allegedly) and lo and behold, that one is NOT on backorder. They overnighted it, so it will arrive today.

THEY WILL be giving me a discount!

Edit: I just called. Um Mr. Thornton, did you speak to your wife. I said yes. Well we are still waiting for UPS to deliver the computer, we ordered the wrong one. Once that gets here we will get it in and then begin looking for the other problems. -- No apology, no promises.

Dude you screwed me over here. Your mistake cost us a week. Gosh they suck! I'm going to start bugging them and letting them know how disgusted I am by all of this.

Oh man .. so sorry. I hate when dealerships do this (I had my share of "waiting for things on order" and "guesswork" as well).

With all this occurring I really hope that the computer is indeed the problem.

Originally posted by Rouar:
Oh man .. so sorry. I hate when dealerships do this (I had my share of "waiting for things on order" and "guesswork" as well).

With all this occurring I really hope that the computer is indeed the problem.

Oh no the computer is not the problem. That is just their first step in troubleshooting it.

I got tired of nobody calling me, and everyone telling me to call back to get some news. I sent a fax to the service advisor and CC'd the Service manager. So finally someone called me back. They told me that replacing the PCM is the first step in troubleshooting. They have no idea what the problem is and how much it will cost to repair. It could be thousands, and Will seemed to think it would be expensive. He told me if that was a problem that his manager had told him to tell me that they would waive the diagnostic fee and I could come pick it up. I said and do what push it home? I said this is already a problem, I'm not paying you $800 just so you can tell me that it will be anothe $1000. I just don't have it and don't have any way of getting it, let alone doubt that it is worth that.

Supposedly the Service Manager is going to call me in the morning. I told Will (hereafter known as dumbA##) that I just don't understand why they don't want me as a customer. Do they not think they can fix it?

I am sooooo ripping pissed right now! I just tried to call back and asked for the Service Manager. They hung up on me. I called back and spoke to the service guy that was nice to me. He suggested I speak to his Assistant Manager, who isn't there until the morning.

I am just sick of this. I'm thinking about just going and getting it and pushing it the couple of miles to my inlaws. I can't afford to write them a blank check. I also don't want to spend $800 on a computer to then have to spend $500 or more to actually repair the car. There is no money so at that point the $800 will be thrown out the window because I will be pushing it home anyway.

I'm thinking about cutting my losses. I really don't want to, but I can't afford to do anything else.

that is a really bad stealership.. the PCM should be the last thing to go for... Tell them you want your orginal pcm in there and it ready to tow. I'm out with a broken finger agian. I'm doing nothing if you want to make one last try at it...

You want to get yoru car fixed, right?
Plus you're upset with their customer service, right?

Bite your lip, let them finish fixing the car. Then when its done and they've invested their money and they call you to come pick up your car thats when you open your mouth.

You can remind them of their terrible customer service. You can tell them that you are not willing to pay $800 for replacement of the PCM just for troubleshooting purposes. If they can't proove the original was bad then you will not pay any costs associated with its replacement because there was nothing wrong with it. If they give you any static just remind then that you still have your money, their bill is outrageous, they treated you as if you were wasting their time when in fact you are a coutomer and they took the fact that you are not technically inclined to their advantage so they could extort money from you.

If you are willing to cut your loses in a worst case scenario make them a take it or leave it offer of what you are willing to pay.

This is really burning me to hear these stories about what is going on with your car. I wish there were more reasources available when you were doing the work yourself so you could have fixed it yourself rather than have to deal with a bunch of jokers.

PRIDE FORD IS A BUNCH OF F---ING MORONS !!!!!!!!!

According to the Service Manager, they are unwilling to take any financial risk associated with this car. They don't want to put the computer in and have it possibly immediately blow out, or put it in and have me say forget it and have to take it back out and eat the charges for it (unreturnable once installed)

Supposedly the car is a nightmare of backprobed this and hanging wires that, and blown this ...

I don't know what to do. I guess I will go empty the car and just abandon it somewhere. I can't afford to even tow it home and try to work on it myself.

PRIDE FORD OF NORTH ATTLEBORO, MA SUCKS BIG OLD DONKEY DONGS ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Edit-- Thought I'd add a photo of my commuting vehicle. Wasn't super fun in the monsoon, but whatever!

My wife is calling them now. She is much more calm than I am. The have ignored and blown me off for so long that I'm immediately pissed at them. They wouldn't even let me speak to the Assistant Manager when I called (whom I've dealt with before) but just transferred me to the Manager/ Hatchetman.

I haven't been this pissed off in a long time, maybe even ever! It's lucky that they aren't closer!

BTW the bite your tongue advice is good advice. Unfortunately I already didn't do that.

The only thing that will cause that PCM to fry would be major shorts on the wireharness. They don't know crap about electronics. Which again means they didn't bother checking the harness, and throwing parts. a ohm check of the 68 pin harness should tell them if there is a major short. and would tell them if its safe to plug in another computer.

It would be like me saying to a customer when going to fix there projection tv, that you have no red color, so I'm going to replace the red projection crt and not bother checking the circuits related to it first. And that lamp is 300 but if thats not the problem you have to cover it (though I have the equipment to check projo crts and restore them..)

here is an offer. a. let me know what it will be to tow it back to your house, and I will help ya. b. sounds like the car is closer to me, so we tow it here. c. I take it off your hands and we work out a price.

I'm gathering that now. The service drpt at Pride Ford is a bunch of High School punks that don't know a wiring harness from a hot rock.

I'm willing to bet that they don't even have a set of maintenance manuals for a Contour on CD, computer, or even in a book.

Their dummies want to throw in a new computer and that will tell them whats wrong. If the new comp. immediately fries then they know there is a elecrical problemin the harness that they will not troubleshoot, they'll just make you buy another rather than ohm it out like a professional tech who knows what they are doing. If the new comp. that they put in doesn't fry and continues to work then they at least know the original comp. is fried and they have a unit that is known to be good so they can test from there.

I'm ready to roll heads, these guys don't know their $##%$ from hot rocks. They are a disgrace to the maintenance community. It makes me want to get a job at a dealer, never think, never use my head, always play dumb, extort money from innocent people and get paid way too much to do it.

I'm mad enough to say that if you need to roll heads I will be there and I will bring help.

It is all in the hands of an older experienced mechanic at the dealership. He spent at least an hour (at $80 per) testing wiring today. He believes the wiring to be good. He is going to put the computer in tomorrow afternoon and we will see. HOPEFULLY it was just the computers time to go.

If the computer fires up and reads something expensive, we are done. I may take JD28 up on his offer to buy it, but you would be responsible to towing it home... With gas prices, etc. we have already paid like $250 in towing over this adventure.

I posted a thread in General looking for suggestions, but that was before I saw JD28's reply. I appreciate your offer of the heads rolling. I have been so mad at them that I am no longer allowed to call them. My wife is dealing with them. I can't say anything to them without it being loaded with sarcasm.

Anyway, post some ideas about what to do with it:

Thread

This sucks.

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
It is all in the hands of an older experienced mechanic at the dealership. He spent at least an hour (at $80 per) testing wiring today. He believes the wiring to be good. He is going to put the computer in tomorrow afternoon and we will see. HOPEFULLY it was just the computers time to go.

If the computer fires up and reads something expensive, we are done. I may take JD28 up on his offer to buy it, but you would be responsible to towing it home... With gas prices, etc. we have already paid like $250 in towing over this adventure.

I posted a thread in General looking for suggestions, but that was before I saw JD28's reply. I appreciate your offer of the heads rolling. I have been so mad at them that I am no longer allowed to call them. My wife is dealing with them. I can't say anything to them without it being loaded with sarcasm.

Anyway, post some ideas about what to do with it:

Thread

This sucks.

So I'm done.

New PCM went in, give the error code of PCM no communication to E4, which we were told is the wiring harness. They are saying $800 for the PCM (which is fried) $1100 for harness and $600+ for harness labor. New PCM has been taken out and returned.

I don't want to be but I am done with our Contour. I can't afford that amount to fix it, and I am just sick of not having a car. I'm not sure, and really don't have anymore time to try and fix it myself. Even though saying that MAKES ME SICK.

Anyone know a place that has OK used, CHEAP cars? haha

PM with an offer if anyone wants it.

It's a 1998 V6 MTX. It has about 120,XXX miles. It was running fine prior to this electrical problems. It is probably due for the UIM/ LIM teardown and clean.

It has a new starter, new Camshaft sensor, new crankshaft sensor, new R16 relay. Others...

It is in North Attleboro, MA near Pride Ford. It would have to be towed to you. I do have the title and 2 keys, but cannot afford to waste anymore $$ towing it places.

hmmm... i bet that pcm isn't fried. but anyway what would you ask for it? I don't think it's worth more than 2.5k running. also my offer stands if you want to take a crack at it one last time. I say your missing 12+ or ground, and they don't know what there doing. I'm outa work 2 more weeks so really have no problem going up there.

Originally posted by jd28:
hmmm... i bet that pcm isn't fried. but anyway what would you ask for it? I don't think it's worth more than 2.5k running. also my offer stands if you want to take a crack at it one last time. I say your missing 12+ or ground, and they don't know what there doing. I'm outa work 2 more weeks so really have no problem going up there.

I make try to take you up on your offer of taking a look at it, but I couldn't do it for a while, MAYBE Saturday...

Thanks,

mt

anyday (not raining) with in the next 2 weeks is fine with me. just let me know and i'll drive up. Don't mind helpping people, aslong as I don't break another finger

Well, I'm ashamed at this dealer's handling of the situation. What I would do now that your dealings with them are through, is to give them a really bad review on the survey they send to you. I have a feeling that the survey may not be sent to you because they know you're pissed, but call Ford directly and be sure to have them send you a survey. The mother company (FoMoCo) actually takes the surveys seriously. Everytime I go to my dealers (Concord Lincoln Mercury and Grappone Ford) they tell me to make sure to say that I was completely satisfied with the service, because bad reviews affect each individual dealer. Ultimately, if there are enough bad reviews, FoMoCo can cancel the contract to sell the dealer Ford vehicles, basically putting them out of business. I'm sure this has happened somewhere. Its part of the customer satisfaction initiative that FoMoCo started a few years ago.

When I went to Concord Lincoln Mercury to have my dash warp fixed under the recall that expired soon, they said my car didn't show signs of needing the recall done. But I said, "What if it does in the future? The recall had expired and I'm going to have to pay for it?" They basically said yes and started giving me the attitude that dealers usually give. It really worried me, because they had been so good and I was telling everyone they were. They screwed cruises8 over too, making me look like an idiot!! So I called the 800 Ford number and filed an official complaint. They told me to go to the closest Ford dealer (Grappone) and see what they say. I'm not sure, but I think FoMoCo called and said I was coming, because they did the recall, no questions asked. They scratched one of my A-pillars too, and when I showed them, they replaced it without haste!! I brought the car back to Concord Lincoln Mercury and showed them, and the service manager, who I got along well with previously, was a prick. Shortly after all this he was transferred to another dealer. I like to think my complaint, along with others fueled an investigation by FoMoCo and the owner of the dealer basically made the guy leave.

I also learned since, that Concord Lincoln Mercury has 3 master mechanics, where most dealers only have one, or in some cases none!! They're electrical guy is awesome!!! My reverse lights weren't working, and he diagnosed the problem in 1/2 hour (pulled out wire) and fixed it for just the cost of labor. They service the NH State police vehicles in the area.

If anyone wants to make me an offer, feel free to PM me.

See my cardomain page (link below) for some photos. I will be keeping the wheels (a family member wants them), roof rack system, silly air horn and the headunit, but that stuff might be negotiable. I do have the stock 14 inch wheels and wheel covers that came with the car (minus one cover) and they have tires with a decent amount of tread left.

It does have a new starter, new crank and camshaft sensors, new clutch switches (both), R16 relay, new front and rear stock roll resistors, a SVT style grill (painted silver) and lower front grill mesh (silver gutter guard). New TPS and brake booster vacuum hose. Pre 98 sail panels, the nice chrome antenna surround with a shorty billet antenna. Red Ford logos front and rear, red painted calipers (4 wheel disc brakes), new rotors and pads on the rear (a couple months old). Foglights (I added over the winter). New SVT center console (Black) with leather boots.

It will need a computer and the wiring problem researched and fixed. You will need to tow it from North Attleboro, MA.

I will throw in a set of brand new in the box Duralast brake pads for the front, and a stock Contour spoiler that I hadn't mounted yet. It is already painted black, but needs some paintwork. I have the original owner's manual, window sticker etc.

This is a one owner car, but does have 120,000 miles on it.

Actually after I left the scene and stopped bugging them, the dealership has turned out to be OK. Maybe they just like attractive women better than demanding guys, go figure. Maybe I forced them to be nicer. My wife is only allowed to deal with the service manager, because of me. He has been nice.

They did all this troubleshooting and trying this and that... and we only owe them like $150. They sent the computer back.

Thanks to everyone for all of their help and suggestions. I'm just done with the car, fixing it is over my head and I can't afford to have a Pro fix it.

EDIT- I just realized that I dropped my Car Domain page from my signature: CARDOMAIN

I'm buying it saturday....

Originally posted by Bicycle commuter :
If anyone wants to make me an offer, feel free to PM me.

See my cardomain page (link below) for some photos. I will be keeping the wheels (a family member wants them), roof rack system, silly air horn and the headunit, but that stuff might be negotiable. I do have the stock 14 inch wheels and wheel covers that came with the car (minus one cover) and they have tires with a decent amount of tread left.

It does have a new starter, new crank and camshaft sensors, new clutch switches (both), R16 relay, new front and rear stock roll resistors, a SVT style grill (painted silver) and lower front grill mesh (silver gutter guard). New TPS and brake booster vacuum hose. Pre 98 sail panels, the nice chrome antenna surround with a shorty billet antenna. Red Ford logos front and rear, red painted calipers (4 wheel disc brakes), new rotors and pads on the rear (a couple months old). Foglights (I added over the winter). New SVT center console (Black) with leather boots.

It will need a computer and the wiring problem researched and fixed. You will need to tow it from North Attleboro, MA.

I will throw in a set of brand new in the box Duralast brake pads for the front, and a stock Contour spoiler that I hadn't mounted yet. It is already painted black, but needs some paintwork. I have the original owner's manual, window sticker etc.

This is a one owner car, but does have 120,000 miles on it.

Actually after I left the scene and stopped bugging them, the dealership has turned out to be OK. Maybe they just like attractive women better than demanding guys, go figure. Maybe I forced them to be nicer. My wife is only allowed to deal with the service manager, because of me. He has been nice.

They did all this troubleshooting and trying this and that... and we only owe them like $150. They sent the computer back.

Thanks to everyone for all of their help and suggestions. I'm just done with the car, fixing it is over my head and I can't afford to have a Pro fix it.

EDIT- I just realized that I dropped my Car Domain page from my signature: CARDOMAIN

So the parts guy told the Service manager that the computer is NOT returnable so they are going to have to charge me for it. I wish we had gone over there a couple of days ago to pay and take the car.

I wish I could just throw it in on the purchase of the car, but I just can't.

Then you should be walking out of there with 2 PCMs.

wtf, they should have had that info before they ordered it and decided to buy one just for troubleshooting like they did.
Seems to me they need to take the hit for that PCM.

Originally posted by ftribC2:
wtf, they should have had that info before they ordered it and decided to buy one just for troubleshooting like they did.
Seems to me they need to take the hit for that PCM.

Assuming they really did pick up another PCM

I bet they can't hand you over 2. Going to tell you they sent the old back (I don't recall ford remaning parts) or it's in the trash. Which in that case what proof do they have they ordered one.

Yes, be very carefull here. If they are going to charge you with the new one, you will be walking out of there with it. If they don't give it to you, then you can refuse to pay for goods not delivered and report them to the BBB.

yup yup.
you should now own two PCMs.

Originally posted by ftribC2:
wtf, they should have had that info before they ordered it and decided to buy one just for troubleshooting like they did.
Seems to me they need to take the hit for that PCM.

Yeah. When I pissed them off and they basically told me to take the car and leave... They told us that at that point my car looked to be a financial liability for them. After my wife sweet talked them, they only agreed to continue working on it if we agreed that no matter what happened we would pay for the PCM.

As I type this it is pissing me off again. We just couldn't afford to take another towing hit.

The whole thing just sucks and I haven't handled it very well. I am just sick of it. I was frustrated that I couldn't fix it. I was frustrated that our Indy guy couldn't fix it. I was frustrated with all of the waiting for bad news. I was frustrated that they ordered the wrong part (now they are claiming that the wrong part was shipped) and didn't care that they wasted another week. I was frustrated that no one called me.

I can't wait for this to be over.

Ok saturday the big day.

Does anyone know if the towed car will need a plate on it.

In RI you have 5days to xfer plates after bill of sale. Which means legally you can drive that car with plates from your old up to 5days. So the question is, should I bother pulling one plate off mine to stick on the back of the car I'm picking up.

Originally posted by jd28:
Ok saturday the big day.

Does anyone know if the towed car will need a plate on it.

In RI you have 5days to xfer plates after bill of sale. Which means legally you can drive that car with plates from your old up to 5days. So the question is, should I bother pulling one plate off mine to stick on the back of the car I'm picking up.

Not so sure. Couldn't hurt I guess.

might need the car to be registered, not sure though

i fyou are towing thru AAA, you shoudl be able to get away with putting your plate on it.
tell them only what they ask for, don't give them anymore in fo than they need.
if they dont ask about it being currently registered dont tell them its not.
if they do ask, tell them you just bought it and the plates that you put on are the ones being transfered to it.

AAA would not tow the 2 SVTs I'm picking up without a plate. I have to pay for both tows outta pocket.

Not sure if you are trying to have AAA do it, or just automatically pay up front. If you are paying, I don't think it matter if it is registered or not.

like i said you only tell them what htey want to hear.
they wont run the plates to see if they are actually registered to the vehicle.
the most they might ask for is a bill of sale for proof of purchase.

Originally posted by Tea-Bagg:
like i said you only tell them what htey want to hear.
they wont run the plates to see if they are actually registered to the vehicle.
the most they might ask for is a bill of sale for proof of purchase.

Yeah, your post came in while I was still typing mine.

We doing a uhaul dolly tow (lift the front only) and a dodge ram.

technically...the car needs to be registered to tow like that, because it is still rolling on the ground.
U-haul might give you more of a hard time about that than anyone.

well there not going to be able to see the towed car, just the one towing... So if it comes down to it, I'll give all the info for my car hehe. And just slap my plates on the one I'm picking up. After bill of sale, legally (in RI) you have 5days to change the plates over to the car they r on.

Ok as far as uhaul goes it's like this. I'm responsible for the vehicle being towed, the towing vehicle, and the trailer I'm renting, and the hitch. And if anything goes wrong it's all on me.

I think with the dolly setup you can't go over 45mph. I'm going to get the vin number and put insurance on it. After bill of sale and my plates on it, it's a legal setup for a RI'er.

Originally posted by jd28:
So if it comes down to it, I'll give all the info for my car hehe.

Do not put your plate on a different vehicle. You'll get in less trouble if you tow it with no plate than if you towed with the wrong plate.

If you keep the plate that is / was registered to the car and just towed it and drove civily you probably won't get bothered at all.

I don't know why a wrecker company wouldn't have a transport plate in the tow truck.

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by jd28:
So if it comes down to it, I'll give all the info for my car hehe.

Do not put your plate on a different vehicle. You'll get in less trouble if you tow it with no plate than if you towed with the wrong plate.

If you keep the plate that is / was registered to the car and just towed it and drove civily you probably won't get bothered at all.

I don't know why a wrecker company wouldn't have a transport plate in the tow truck.

Not using a wrecker company hehe. Doing it with my uncle's dodge ram and renting a uhaul dolly (which just lifts the front wheels) I just got vin# from bike and is now insured. After bill of sale, yes I can legally (In RI) put the plates on the car (as long as it's insured). They give you 5 working days to xfer the plates over. Also if I wish to keep it, before I can even register it I have to drive it to have the vin check because it is an out of state car.

The cheapest quote I could get to tow it back here was 200. Which isn't bad... I have to pay 15 for gas 65 total for trailer rental and 12pack of beer..

Made it back safely with the tour riding on the dolly. Thankyou Mike.

What was wrong with it...

uhh yeah
dooooooooo tell

Originally posted by jd28:
Made it back safely with the tour riding on the dolly. Thankyou Mike.

Good I just got home an hour ago and was wondering!

Originally posted by jd28:
What was wrong with it...

Um, you figured it out already? Oh my, if that is true then I'm REALLY MAD AT PRIDE FORD ! But more power to you!

First I must stress this, I would never knock someones work, nor would tell them to not attempt stuff them self. It is also why I ask what you want to do if it's something simple.... Please do not be upset about what I will say.
Basicly I feel really bad, and wish it was something more...

The TPS harness was shorted out. All the wires touched after the final wrap. I knew that the computer is a very very very hard thing to fry, even if you shorted everything out, it's hard to kill. I moved the TPS harness (last thing I went for) and the fuel pump and relays clicked with each movement of the wire... I openned the harness up, made sure nothing was touching... she fired right up...

Originally posted by jd28:
First I must stress this, I would never knock someones work, nor would tell them to not attempt stuff them self. It is also why I ask what you want to do if it's something simple.... Please do not be upset about what I will say.
Basicly I feel really bad, and wish it was something more...

The TPS harness was shorted out. All the wires touched after the final wrap. I knew that the computer is a very very very hard thing to fry, even if you shorted everything out, it's hard to kill. I moved the TPS harness (last thing I went for) and the fuel pump and relays clicked with each movement of the wire... I openned the harness up, made sure nothing was touching... she fired right up...

OH [censored] ! WHY IN THE HELL DIDN'T THE DEALERSHIP PICK THAT UP!!! I guess you did have an idea of where to look, I did tell them I had been messing with it...

OH damn. My wife told me weeks and weeks ago to undo the splice I made in those wires. SHE IS GOING TO KILL ME !!!

Oh crap. This makes me sick!

I guess you need to fix your signature, minus the DEAD!

Good job! Everyone bow down to Jeremy THE KING!

ahh man!

I guess it's nice to finally know what it was, but man you went through a whole pile of crap just to find that.
I'm really sorry to hear it.
I hope you don't beat yourself up over it too badly.

Originally posted by ftribC2:
ahh man!

I guess it's nice to finally know what it was, but man you went through a whole pile of crap just to find that.
I'm really sorry to hear it.
I hope you don't beat yourself up over it too badly.

Which is why I was thinking not to post it... I hope no one takes me as an ass....

Originally posted by jd28:

Originally posted by ftribC2:
ahh man!

I guess it's nice to finally know what it was, but man you went through a whole pile of crap just to find that.
I'm really sorry to hear it.
I hope you don't beat yourself up over it too badly.

Which is why I was thinking not to post it... I hope no one takes me as an ass....

its all good, now if somthing like this were to happen to anyone else, we'd know what to expect or give them more pointers on how to resolve a similar issue. More power to you man, congrads

Originally posted by jd28:
Which is why I was thinking not to post it... I hope no one takes me as an ass....

Honestly I thought the exact opposite of you in this topic. You did offer several times to check out the car and I while Mike is pissed at the situation (understandably!) it's not your fault the fix was quick for you and he is clearly not angry at you at all.

Congrats, lol ..

I'm also extremely angry at Pride Ford for not being able to trace this down, though. Make it another dealership I will never recommend to anyone...

wow...that dealership needs a kick in the ass!!!

so now buy the car back!
haha

It did throw a CEL, I stalled it in the yard (showing my friend how to drive stick, where it will stall) right after the restart (and I believe it was the 3rd start of the day) it had a CEL light, the computer hasn't even learned the table yet. I'll clear it and drive it, if it throws it again trip to the zone. Mike did you say you also already replaced the TPS?

We can't get too excited about it running yet. The car revs way up to 4k rpm. Its fine when it's started, but after you go up the road and depress the clutch and hit the brake, it's as if you r holding the gas down... Still something TPS related maybe...

Ok it's a few things making it act funny, I got it to not go as high, and the CEL is gone. I'm ripping into her now, finding some hidden' issues along the way. Also never use grease on the sensor contacts, the grease isn't a conductor and must of been putting a high resistence on the TPS connectors. I removed the grease using contact cleaner on the MAF, Cam sensor, IAC, and TPS. RPMS hanging at 2000 2500 now, and will come down on there own. But then I also found this...

Bottom IAC holding bolt snapped off, I say she has to be leaking around there. Ordered a new valve for 37.00.

The lower intake flap towards the front, you can see the linkage isn't connected anymore, the retainer clip is broken. I'm sure she not likeing that too much. And only found it because I pull the upper intake.

I'm going to send the Upper and lower to the parts washer.

Originally posted by jd28:
First I must stress this, I would never knock someones work, nor would tell them to not attempt stuff them self. It is also why I ask what you want to do if it's something simple.... Please do not be upset about what I will say.
Basicly I feel really bad, and wish it was something more...

The TPS harness was shorted out. All the wires touched after the final wrap. I knew that the computer is a very very very hard thing to fry, even if you shorted everything out, it's hard to kill. I moved the TPS harness (last thing I went for) and the fuel pump and relays clicked with each movement of the wire... I openned the harness up, made sure nothing was touching... she fired right up...

I had a feeling all along that it was something simple and silly that was wrong. That sounds like it was something simple and silly to me.

I'm just shocked that with the test equipment and trained personell that the dealer was unable to pinpoint a problem like this.

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by jd28:
First I must stress this, I would never knock someones work, nor would tell them to not attempt stuff them self. It is also why I ask what you want to do if it's something simple.... Please do not be upset about what I will say.
Basicly I feel really bad, and wish it was something more...

The TPS harness was shorted out. All the wires touched after the final wrap. I knew that the computer is a very very very hard thing to fry, even if you shorted everything out, it's hard to kill. I moved the TPS harness (last thing I went for) and the fuel pump and relays clicked with each movement of the wire... I openned the harness up, made sure nothing was touching... she fired right up...

I had a feeling all along that it was something simple and silly that was wrong. That sounds like it was something simple and silly to me.

I'm just shocked that with the test equipment and trained personell that the dealer was unable to pinpoint a problem like this.

Well they did and didn't. They came back saying E4 harness. If you look up the E4 harness it's the harness that goes into the computer and out to every sensor. It also has the power come down into it. The TPS sensor is part of the E4 harness. The part about throwing a computer at it I don't totally understand but they were trying to rule it out, at the cost of the customer.

And I'm sure there is other things that made them not want to take it, as a dealer I'm sure they had some nightmares come in. They where ignorant to the car because they saw work done, and he said he messed with it (I would assume told them what he did work on).

This is where they started jumping the gun. Also when you pop the hood and see some flames painted on, and wire all bunched up by the fusebox (from add ons) the tech will start acting like "wow someone f'd with it" all that was is air horn and fog lights, but a tech would just assume that it's a problem, and someone been moding and racing it (which wasn't the case in this car) but this is how they act, because of the cars that have been hacked up and fried.

How I did it. I wanted the old computer with the car because it would already be programmed for the keys or should be. I openned the computer too see for any signs of a major fry (though ICs don't show that, caps and resistors will) smelled the computer too sniffed for any kind of a left over cooked trail ( i know I'm crazy) got lightheaded from the sniffing and figured lets plug it back in...

PATS light started flashing... I knew there is function in this computer. Turned the key no CEL no start. Openned up relay box, jumped the starter relay terminals and she cranked over. Before hand I was printing up countless schematics on wiring relation and so on. I know how a relay works, and knew there was no ground on the other side of the coil for it to not work. Schematic shows the PCM ties back to the ground side of the coil for the starter relay and this is why it's not going to crank, PATS.

Next thing I thought was power relay for PCM, had the key in the run posistion pulled the relay and it clicked off, put it back in and it clicked on, but no CEL.

In the meantime the car is still in run, I figure well last thing to go for is short, I'll check this TPS harness (touched it) and click from the fuse box and a very noticable fuel pump prime from the rear (the PCM controlls the fuel pump relay also) moved it around, click, click I knew she was on, check the dash had a CEL, turned the key she started. Fixed the TPS wires.

Then today the reason why it was being worked on. First CEL on without even driving, just starting 3-4 times and running 2-3 mins it tripped it.

Cleared it went for a drive, got to the top of the street push the clutch and the brake to stop, and RPMS went up to 4000 and stayed there. Went to next stop sign, same thing even waiting for it too come down, tapping gas to see if something was hanging. Started going up more, and people were looking at me like this man doesn't know how to drive stick or thinks he's cool (it was the later one hehe) went back around the block with the engine racing. If I shut it off the idle would be fine until the next stop.

Die grease, it was causing a resistence on the contact throwing it off. Flushed that, and check the other sensors all having it, flushed them all off. But then the RPMs getting stuck at 2500, even if you didn't really bring it up that much. But after 3-4 seconds would come down. IAC faulty/leaky no bottom bolt head, assumed bottom was also leaking (had to be) pulled upper intake (thought it would be easy to remove the remaing bolt stud with it off so I don't damage the surface) found linkage for lower intake butterfly flap controll (whatever it's called) disconnected, the flaps were not moving at all on the side towards the front, and even r sticky.

So going to clean the upper and lower intake, replace the gaskets for them, also EGR gasket, IAC gasket and IAC, also get a clip to hold the linkage onto the flaps for the lower intake, and see if that fixes the high RPM problem.

high RPMS at stop lights eh? could it be resolved with the TH fix? I know when i got my headers put on, the shop thew away my little piece for the TH fix and I drove the car with the same symptoms, every stop resulted in my RPMS just going higher and higher untill I put a new one in..thats the best I can come up with

Originally posted by Stinky Brown Paki!:
high RPMS at stop lights eh? could it be resolved with the TH fix? I know when i got my headers put on, the shop thew away my little piece for the TH fix and I drove the car with the same symptoms, every stop resulted in my RPMS just going higher and higher untill I put a new one in..thats the best I can come up with

I know the fix your refering too.

But I'm sure the broken bolt isn't helping (has to be letting air sneak in), and that linkage that is off on the lower intake isn't good either.

After some work (removing die grease from the sensors) it wouldn't go as high and would drop after 3 seconds, maybe the IAC valve just sticky/leaking. But thought it would be easier to remove the bolt stud left in there with the upper intake off, and good thing because I would of never found that lower intake linkage hanging.

Just have to wait now for gaskets.

hopefully you also odered the new grommets for the linkage to your secondaries..

I haven't ordered anything yet.. Don't know part numbers. Just put in a request to Team Ford for the parts. Upper and lower intake gaskets. Linkage clip, Gaskets for egr IAC... Anything else? Haven't worked on the duratec I'm a zetec man hehe

Totally off topic, but this is the most-replied-to topic in NECEG by nearly 100 posts.

F5RZ-9F715-AB (iac)
E83Z-9F670-A (iac gasket)
F5RZ-9F955-AB (GROMMETS) X 2
FOPZ-9229-A (O-RING, PKG OF 10)
Upper intake manifold gasket P/N F5RZ-9H486-B
Throttle body gasket F5DZ-9E936-AE
EGR gasket E6AZ-9D476-B
Lower intake manifold gasket F5RZ-9439-B

edit: wasn't a intake rebuild just done on this car? if so the UIM and LIM gaskets can be resused

Originally posted by BrApple:
F5RZ-9F715-AB (iac)
E83Z-9F670-A (iac gasket)
F5RZ-9F955-AB (GROMMETS) X 2
FOPZ-9229-A (O-RING, PKG OF 10)
Upper intake manifold gasket P/N F5RZ-9H486-B
Throttle body gasket F5DZ-9E936-AE
EGR gasket E6AZ-9D476-B
Lower intake manifold gasket F5RZ-9439-B

edit: wasn't a intake rebuild just done on this car? if so the UIM and LIM gaskets can be resused

No, no intake rebuild yet. I was planning to do it but hadn't gotten around to it yet.

Originally posted by BrApple:
F5RZ-9F715-AB (iac)
E83Z-9F670-A (iac gasket)
F5RZ-9F955-AB (GROMMETS) X 2
FOPZ-9229-A (O-RING, PKG OF 10)
Upper intake manifold gasket P/N F5RZ-9H486-B
Throttle body gasket F5DZ-9E936-AE
EGR gasket E6AZ-9D476-B
Lower intake manifold gasket F5RZ-9439-B

note: tb gasket number is for the SVT tb gasket

most of the numbers where taken from the intake rebuild faq, the rest I got straight from Bill

Originally posted by JSmith:

Originally posted by jd28:
First I must stress this, I would never knock someones work, nor would tell them to not attempt stuff them self. It is also why I ask what you want to do if it's something simple.... Please do not be upset about what I will say.
Basicly I feel really bad, and wish it was something more...

The TPS harness was shorted out. All the wires touched after the final wrap. I knew that the computer is a very very very hard thing to fry, even if you shorted everything out, it's hard to kill. I moved the TPS harness (last thing I went for) and the fuel pump and relays clicked with each movement of the wire... I openned the harness up, made sure nothing was touching... she fired right up...

I had a feeling all along that it was something simple and silly that was wrong. That sounds like it was something simple and silly to me.

I'm just shocked that with the test equipment and trained personelle that the dealer was unable to pinpoint a problem like this.

VERY FRUSTRATING AND EXPENSIVE! The Ford dealer was the 2nd place we had look at it. An indy shop towed (my dime) to his shop and then on to Ford when they couldn't find anything. Also told me they connect with the PCM.

It just really sucks! I will miss my car, but I'm glad that someone got it that can take care of it better than I could.

I'm sorry about all the dielectric grease, the Pro's at Auto Zone recommended it. It does conduct doesn't it? As I was checking everything out and pulling all these connectors I put the grease in figuring it would help seal water out and make good connections...

I wish I had taken Jeremy up on his offer of help, but that was my (bad)choice. I honestly just felt it was a waste of time since several Pro's had looked at it with no luck. Sorry Jeremy, my bad.

Good luck to Jeremy, it sounds like he has made a good start.

Originally posted by Rouar:
Totally off topic, but this is the most-replied-to topic in NECEG by nearly 100 posts.

I'm so proud. I truly do appreciate everyone's interest and concern.

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by BrApple:
F5RZ-9F715-AB (iac)
E83Z-9F670-A (iac gasket)
F5RZ-9F955-AB (GROMMETS) X 2
FOPZ-9229-A (O-RING, PKG OF 10)
Upper intake manifold gasket P/N F5RZ-9H486-B
Throttle body gasket F5DZ-9E936-AE
EGR gasket E6AZ-9D476-B
Lower intake manifold gasket F5RZ-9439-B

note: tb gasket number is for the SVT tb gasket

most of the numbers where taken from the intake rebuild faq, the rest I got straight from Bill

See UIM/ LIM rebuild How-to. Part numbers are there for both SVT and Non-SVT V6. Jeremy's is a stock V6 non-SVT TB.

Originally posted by Stinky Brown Paki!:
hopefully you also odered the new grommets for the linkage to your secondaries..

In all of my poking and prodding I had noticed that linkage was loose. I thought I had fixed it.

Ok did order everything threw Bill. And even after getting a PM and the info here about the SVT vs non-SVT TB part number, I managed to order an SVT TB gasket

I just called and left a message to see if I can catch the order before it ships, paypal funds have not been claimed yet so maybe can fix it. I'm one daying it out (15 not bad) so I can get it back together thrusday or friday.

About the die grease. No it doesn't conduct its a insulator. Gold terminals don't react like the old tin ones do to weather. Also all sensor connectors have rubber seals in the base to prevent weather getting in. Aslong as the seal is inplace your good.

The TPS is a variable resistor nothing more. It's range on this car is 400-6000ohms put grease on it, and you could induce a external resistence to make the computer see other values, maybe 800-10000 who knows for sure, but it screws it up. Which had to be the CEL problem, it threw it at me without even driving the car.

It was no problem cleaning it, autozone has terminal cleaner, I had a big can of electic motor spray for the model airplanes I fly, and knew it would be safe to use. Took it all of every sensor, and connection.

The IAC is leaking with the bottom bolt broken, and I'm sure she is faulty too (hell could of sprayed it out) but found one from the zone for 37 (Wells is the maker) that should correct the 2000-2500 rpm problem, before removing the grease on the terminals it was 4000 and was starting to go higher. After that it was 2000-2500 at stop but would drop after 3 seconds to 1000.

Originally posted by jd28:
Ok did order everything threw Bill. And even after getting a PM and the info here about the SVT vs non-SVT TB part number, I managed to order an SVT TB gasket

i mentioned it becasue I did the same thing, when I ordered parts for the rebuild I was just swapping to the SVT parts so the tb gasket was correct per the how-to. fast forward I ordered one for my father and didn't think about it and got the SVT one for his 95 ...oh well, Bill should be able to correct it before it ships

Yup just IM Bill, he is awesome, why I never tried him before is beyond me. I was starstruck IMing him at first lol. Then I wouldn't shut up (poor guy trying too work) but again awesome guy, awesome service, I know where I'm going when I need anything ford related.

F5RZ-9E926-A TB non-svt

Originally posted by Former Contour Owner:

Originally posted by Stinky Brown Paki!:
hopefully you also odered the new grommets for the linkage to your secondaries..

In all of my poking and prodding I had noticed that linkage was loose. I thought I had fixed it.

snap grommet that holds it has a missing leg, so I'm sure it would work for a few, then let go while driving. But your work looked good to me.

Man oh man

Saw dirt and sand down in the intake parts on the heads (forgot to plug up holes) however luck on myside all the valves seem to be in over lap or closed on the intake but number 3.

First used a shop vac on the ports with no luck hose to big, then used the family house vac, because the hose was about the same size as the intake ports, little bit of luck, but still some loose dirt. So plug all the holes, air blasted the engine bay (put on safty glasses when you do this

) then pulled one paper towel plug out of each hole (did one at a time) and blasted air (knowing the valve where closed it only had one way to go (out) which it looked like it did and again right into the eyes (safty Jeremy

) she must be getting back at me. So after shinning light back down in there, look pretty clean to me, so feel alittle better.

The number 3 piston intakes where open. So I airblasted around the sparkplug, pulled the plug, sent a blast of air down the intake and stuff flew out the sparkplug port. So I hoping it's good (well better than leaving what was in there).

Going to clean up the head to LIM surface, and still have to get that bolt out of the UIM IAC mount. Might have to cut it off flush and drill it out, stud remover will not grab it (only about 1/8th sticking out maybe a little bit more) and vice grips will not get it out either..

Then she should be ready to rock with new gaskets and IAC, and will report back.

Put it all back together, she started right up. Didn't see why it wouldn't.

I'm thinking either relearn is in order, or something just not right. I checked all vacumme connenctions.

It hangs at 3000k, she idles at 1000 all the time.

Do I have to drive it around for a little bit to relearn, or is there a process I'm missing for helping the computer learn the base idle...

And where is the info for the dang TH fix? I find it when I dont' need it, and now can't find it....

Thankyou

search also for "moose" and you might come on the fix.

edit: it's found on the main site through the FAQs
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/FAQ.php?s=probs&display=throttlehang

you should drive it around for the computer to learn suff back

Sounds like it could just be throttle hang requiring the 5 cent moose fix Kim mentions.

Ok, drove it around today. I must say she feels nice.

Check engine light came on, went to the zone, p1122 TPS voltage too high. She hangs at 2000-1500, then will come down. I have the TH fix, doing nothing.

Had them clear the code back on after about 10-15miles drive. So must still be a TPS harness/sensor issue. I'm going to say maybe by chance a bum TPS. I know Mike was getting code 121 which was low reading I think. And changed it out already.

I say that is the issue though, might just fix it all up and idle correctly after I find out why it's getting the wrong reading. Alldata has a nice step by step, so going to do some testing.

But as far as the rest goes, it's working, no other codes, has power to take off nicely, and seems to be pretty soomth.

To end this thread, I will say yes A new TPS fixed the high revs and CEL problem with code P0122.

After replaceing it with the new one, and reseting the computer, she idles at 750 or so. Much lower than before. I think Mike put the orginal TPS back in when everything started. Drove it around again and it's working much, much better.

You can all be sure this car has a loving home. And will live on

Originally posted by jd2-98s:
To end this thread, I will say yes A new TPS fixed the high revs and CEL problem with code P0122.

After replaceing it with the new one, and reseting the computer, she idles at 750 or so. Much lower than before. I think Mike put the orginal TPS back in when everything started. Drove it around again and it's working much, much better.

You can all be sure this car has a loving home. And will live on

That is great! I'm glad you got it running! I'm glad that you like the car. It was always a good car, just needed some love every now and again!

Congratulations! I'm glad she has a nice new home. Keep us/ me updated on what you do with/ to her!

too not let the thread end, and keep it going.. hehe.

The car passed inspection flying colors.

XM radio on the way.

And a nice new full, black carpet should be here soon.

nice to hear it passed.

Sonds like some fancy accessories are on the way.

Originally posted by JSmith:
nice to hear it passed.

Sonds like some fancy accessories are on the way.

Nothing too fancy

Xm was 30.00 for a tuner and adapter to work with an old sony CDX-m600 I had sitting here.

Picked up a 4dr power doorlock kit for 21.00 going to install that also. I've done some in the past, and they work pretty good.

Snapped some pics of the contour. And Xm radio tuner, which had to be mounted but working in glovebox for now. And a video of start up

And my baby. And whats the car behind it... hmmm..

This thread never dies...

Is that a Bunton mower I see on the trailer?

I know it some kind of mower

I'll have to check with the old man, he does landscapeing on the side. He usally gets stuff used and fixs it up.

Originally posted by JSmith:
Is that a Bunton mower I see on the trailer?

He said it's a older John Deer walk behind, which he picked up for 250-300 has a 32 inch cut iirc.

So no guess on what that other black car is behind the green/white stripe tour.

well, it looks like a contour to me.
but who it belongs to is the real question...

Winner lol, Granfather lives in the blue house, it's a 2000 contour sports ATX 23k 2.5l. He doesn't drive much.