3L turbo project...Pictures! Dial up warn.

Originally posted by AirKnight:
So you're not using the Street Flight kit? Any reason to that?

Well that's not completely correct...

Care to comment any Tom.

Is that the T-28 from the street flight kit?

Originally posted by JonGordo8:

Also not to sound totally stupid, but what is that box infront of the UIM?

its the IMRC, it's what controls the secondaries. i know all 96-00 contiques had them, and iirc the 95s didnt because they were vacuum operated.

Originally posted by nick10:
Is that the T-28 from the street flight kit?

Hes using a T3/T4 turbo. I know the exhaust trim is .82, not sure about the intake.

Dirty eh? Then just think how fast just the dirt in my car is gonna travel.

Tom

The throttle body is a MAC 70mm high perf. mustang throttle body. As long as you are retaining the secondaries in your engine, it doesn' kill you low-end performance but it sure helps on the top-end. It will now be a big benefit with the turbo.

*Edit*
The turbo kit was put together by Streetflight for me. Since the engine was larger, the T28 just wouldn't cut it...not even close for the airflow requirements of a highly ported 3L motor. The turbo you see is a T3/T4 with .82 exhuast housing. It is a lot bigger than the T28 so none of the piping after the headers would work since the turbo has to sit higher. I purchased the first set of headers that streetflight made when they were first getting the kit together. They are not all stainless steel, only the header primaries are stainless. Anyway, they were the 1st prototype set and were good enough for that 290HP dyno. I felt they would be better for my engine since it was a 3L rather than the smaller tube headers that they are using now. So in effect, it is a bastardized streetflight partial kit that I am working with.
I am fabricating all the piping from the headers up to the turbo, and from the turbo to the exhaust right now. In the one picture of the up-pipe, it is just tack-welded together to get the turbo into the correct position. The down pipe is also built now and fully welded together but I forgot to take my camera and snap pictures of it.
Next I am hooking up the oil pressure and return lines as well as the water cooling for the bearings. When that is done, then I will fully bolt up the headers and all the piping on the exhuast side.
Intake: I have an intercooler core and I am going to construct my own water to air intercooler. The turbo sits in a different spot so I didn't want to use the intercooler from the SF kit because the angles for the pipe may not have been advantageous.
So: I'm looking at about 6 more hours of work to get it driveable with no boost, from then I am not sure how long it will take to get the intake side finished correctly.

*

Tom

I think you just sold me on the FSVT rims. Schweet. Good luck with it!!! *man that makes me miss my car*

Nice looking car Tom, now I see what my car is supposed to look like as far as the lowering goes. I too have the FSVT rims. Good luck with the project and can't wait to see the dyno #'s!

Yeah, those focus SVT rims fit the SVT way better than they ever did the Focus! Should have been what was on the CSVT in the first place! They could be a little lighter though, they are 4.5 #'s heavier than stock, but when you pushin 60+ ponies more than stock with more on the way, who cares.

Tom

Originally posted by warmonger:
Dirty eh? Then just think how fast just the dirt in my car is gonna travel.

Tom

LOL! A whole lot faster than my dirty car!

Originally posted by warmonger:

I am fabricating all the piping from the headers up to the turbo, and from the turbo to the exhaust right now. In the one picture of the up-pipe, it is just tack-welded together to get the turbo into the correct position. The down pipe is also built now and fully welded together but I forgot to take my camera and snap pictures of it.

Cool! So in the original SF kit, does the turbo sit right next to the manifold and not in the location that you have it? Most T/C cars I've seen have them mounted pretty much directly after the collector. Ofcourse, most of those cars were dinky little 4-bangers with tons of space in the bay! Will the fact that is farther away make any difference in power, or it doesn't matter because the entire system is pressurized!?!

You ever seen those cartoons where the lady cat walks by the dude cats and their eyes start popping out of their heads and they are whistlin? Well, I'm the guy cat, and you're car is the lady cat! Woohoooooo!!!!

I have the SF kit and it sits on top of the trans like warmonger's his was the first set of pipes ever made, IIRC.

I should have pics up soon. The guys that took them are hopeless though so don't hold your breath!

Power won't be compromised too much by the distance the turbo is mounted, but spool time can be affected because the exhaust temp is lower by the time it hits the turbo. However, spool-up on the SF kit is so fast with the T-28 that it isn't an issue. The turbo might run cooler than the ones right off the manifolds, so that could be a blessing for the intake temperatures. Power seems to be good as the approximate position of the SF kit is roughly the same place as mine.

Tom

Tom,
Not sure how to say this. But I just now saw this post and pics of your car. And it is almost exactly what I plan to do to mine and look like. So as you an imagine. I really really like your ride.

Originally posted by warmonger:
The turbo might run cooler than the ones right off the manifolds, so that could be a blessing for the intake temperatures.

It might have an affect on underhood temperatures, but the intake temperature probably won't be too different. Remember, compressing the air is what is causing the intake temperature to rise, not the heat of the turbo.

I wanna be like you when I grow up...

Compressing the air is only one source of intake charge heat.

Do you think heat conduction from the exhuast housing running 1000 C isn't going to conduct through the all metal housing to the ~80-100 C aluminum compressor housing? What about the turbine shaft? Those are two prime areas for extra heat to enter the intake charge through convection and conduction. Then there is friction added to the air from the compressor wheel which results from vigorously circulating the air.
Underhood temperatures are going to raise anyway since the turbo is under the hood. My statement that it may not heat the intake charge as much results from the logic that the exhaust has more time to cool down before it gets to the turbo so the turbine and housing will be cooler. Therefore the temperature difference between the exhaust and intake will be lower and the rate of heat transfer should be lower.

warmonger

Well, I'm finallly going to give an update and some new pictures. I have the pipe fabrication complete now except for a mounting tab on the down-pipe. I am going to have it bolt onto the rear motor mount so the piping is solidly connected to the engine.

The pictures I have show how the main header piping is routed, the turbo, the down-pipe and the wastegate. I put all the pieces together to show how they assemble.
The next step will be bolting them in. I am not thrilled about that because some of the nuts are in such tight positions that I will be wrenching for an hour on just one of them I'm sure.
After installing this piping all that remains is the intake side and of course all the little extras like hoses and stuff. Don't talk too much smack about the welding since I did it all myself and I'm getting better. Some of the welds are nice and some are ugly

but all the joints are good on the inside of the pipes so no sweat. They're all covered with header wrap now anyway (not shown in the pictures) so anyone looking at the piping wont see them anyway.

If you are familiar with the underside of the car you can tell from the pics that I ran my exhaust under the drivers side of the trans and I shaped it to follow the contours of the subframe and trans. As soon as it clears the trans there is a 3-bolt flange that connects it to a flex-pipe, which in turn goes into the main cat and another 3-bolt flange, and then on to the rest of the exhaust. This was done for easy serviceability. It's taken me a month, but I have only been able to work on it 4-6 hours a week on saturdays becuase of my job and the hours that the shop is open. Hopefully I'll drive it home next weekend where I can finish the intake at my leisure.
Well, what do you think?

warmonger

That looks really good....looks really clean and well done! What's the dia. of your D/P?

HOLY PIPING BATMAN!!

Looks AWESOME. Keep it up man

-R-

Thanks for the compliments. Remember the actual header you see was already built, I did the piping that connects it to the turbo, right after the two small flex pipes.
The down-pipe is 2.5", as is the up-pipe going into the turbo. That is the biggest I could use and still fit the flanges correctly.

warmonger

Damn that looks great!!!

A heck of a lot better than the first time I saw it together.

I'll be over next Saturday to get it put on my car...

Hey! Those header flanges look familiar!!

Originally posted by Chris Hightower:
Hey! Those header flanges look familiar!!

I wonder why?

Demon, I'll tell you it wasn't easy making the original sections 'acceptable' enough to put on MY car. It has been 6 weeks now of weekend work to get this far.

warmonger

It looks awesome!! Great job Tom!

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I'll be over next Saturday to get it put on my car...

<bubb rubb> It was being installed on their car... </bubb rubb>

I hate you

Originally posted by JVT:
I hate you

Yo, Don't hate the player, hate the game.

never mind you probably have to know the song to get it.

Tom

Tom, What rear header are you using? Stock?

PS, I hope you used VHT High temp paint, cos the Duplicolor stuff won't stand a chance.

Also why does your downpipe flange point up at the end, instead of straight back?

PS, you might want to plum that Wastegate pipe back into the exhaust, cos mine is now and it is STILL LOUD! Dumping to atmosphere like that, unmuffled, is going to be crazy loud!

Originally posted by Stazi the Aussie:
1. Tom, What rear header are you using? Stock?

2. PS, I hope you used VHT High temp paint, cos the Duplicolor stuff won't stand a chance.

3. Also why does your downpipe flange point up at the end, instead of straight back?

4. PS, you might want to plum that Wastegate pipe back into the exhaust, cos mine is now and it is STILL LOUD! Dumping to atmosphere like that, unmuffled, is going to be crazy loud!

1. He has the 2" primary original prototype headers (the big HP number ones

)

2. Thermo Tec 2000d paint. No worries IMO. (Also wrapped too IIRC)

3. He is running a T3/T4 hybrid. Much different and larger then the small T28's

4. Definitely agree there. While it doesn't get any better for wastegate control and stopping boost creep it is uncorking the exhaust when you do hit your boost limit. If you keep it that way I would look into running a small engine style muffler on it to help quiet it down. (Yes I had thoughts about that on my friend TT setup

)

Demon, I think you are looking at the wrong end of the downpipe to me. In one pic it show the exhaust end (not the turbo end) of the downpipe with the flange pointing up. I worked it out - it conect the the downward point flange connected to the rest of his exhaust....

Carry on.

Originally posted by Stazi the Aussie:
Demon, I think you are looking at the wrong end of the downpipe to me. In one pic it show the exhaust end (not the turbo end) of the downpipe with the flange pointing up. I worked it out - it conect the the downward point flange connected to the rest of his exhaust....

Carry on.

You score an A+ !

I thought that the angle worked best to make room for the flange behind the motor mount and accessing the bolts.
The down-pipe and its connection to the rest of the exhaust is my favorite part because I designed it based on factors I thought were important.

The paint is Thermotec 2000D and its great stuff! It also makes it look pretty. All that stuff is header wrapped now as well so there wont be any heat problems. I might have some piping rot out in a few years but the sad part is I'll probably not be driving it as much now. I decided that I'd get it running then replace pieces of pipe with stainless as necessary. At least the primaries are stainless already.

The back header is done now and painted up also. Its a better design than the front one is. I didn't have it ready when I took the pictures.

warmonger

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

4. Definitely agree there. While it doesn't get any better for wastegate control and stopping boost creep it is uncorking the exhaust when you do hit your boost limit. If you keep it that way I would look into running a small engine style muffler on it to help quiet it down. (Yes I had thoughts about that on my friend TT setup )

Oh yeah, the vent to atmosphere. I really wanted to plumb it back in at first, but I figured that I didn't want it going back in right next to the turbo for turbulence and power reasons. I also didn't want to make a separate exhaust system for it like the Corky Bell book recommends, so I decided I'd vent it to atmosphere for now and see how loud it is.

I'll look for cops before I get on it. Besides, it might sound cool and it'll scare the hell out of the competition!
Hell if I ever get on this thing at all, noise or no noise I will have to watch for cops. In first and second its gonna lite up the tires for sure...anything in third or above and I'll be speeding anyway so I can't really win.

I think what I'll do if its too loud is plump it back into the down-pipe with a collector of some sort. Not a hard job though for future work.

warmonger

Fueled by jelousy and rage, everyone with a plot to steel Tom's turbo asks...

"Need any help installing that turbo? I think I'm free this weekend..."

Tom, you might want to add some type of structural support for the wastegate. That is one large mass cantilevered out past the up pipe, and combined with the engine vibration and road loads, I would expect a lot of stress on the wastegate pipe to up pipe connection. I don't know what real estate is available underhood....maybe you can run a thin tubular brace or strap down on an angle to the up pipe.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that.

Tom

I didn't see this question asked yet so i'll be the first, What kind of #'s are you looking at?

You are the envy of everyone on this site

Originally posted by Slimshady:
I didn't see this question asked yet so i'll be the first, What kind of #'s are you looking at?

You are the envy of everyone on this site

Numbers? Funny you ask that.

I'm not really sure, but my attempts at simulating a similar turbo with the dyno simulator are showing good numbers. The problem is these numbers aren't exact because I don't have the correct specs for the turbo to put into the program.
Oh yes, the numbers

It appears that with the intake and head work that I have done I should be looking around 375-425 HP.

warmonger

crank or fwhp?

Does it matter? Its still a lot more than I have now.

lol
I guess it does matter. Well that is crank estimated so it would be subject to driveline losses. Actually that is the conservative estimates based on lower efficiency than my turbo actually has, and an intercooler efficiency of 70% With better numbers in those areas it is even higher but I won't list those as I am not sure how realistic they will be, especially when I am not even sure that the engine can handle that kind of power.
I don't really know what it will end up being, but I know it will be significantly higher than a 2.5L turbo, if the engine stays sound.

warmonger

I know it may be a bit premature, but I am taking a break from working on the car to say that I have the turbo hooked up EXCEPT for the intake and I am running the engine to make sure there are no exhaust, oil, or water leaks. So far so good since I ran it for about 1/2 hour and not apparent problems. Lots of smoke from the piping as the coating and thermal wrap starts to bake on. All the O2 sensors are working, including the worthless #2's that test pre-cat efficiency. The sound out of the exhaust is a nice sweet rumble now since the turbo is acting as the best resonator money can buy!

It sounds even better now through the pair of magnaflows than it did before with headers and no resonator. I revved it up a few times to hear the turbo spool, sounds sweet! It makes a hell of an engine compartment blower though.

Now I will begin fabricating the intake pipe and the intercooler. Hopefully it won't be too long.

warmonger

awesome! good to hear. just hope mine goes as smoothly and problem free as yours in may.

Hmmmmmm....

You didn't happen to make a jig while you fab'ed up your header back exhaust.......did ya???

No, no jig. I didn't fab the headers themselves, I only redesigned the piping after them and repaired some problems with them.

I have new pictures, but this post is so loaded with them that I will not burden the readers with more. I will (someday) try to make another webpage dedicated to the turbo build-up and tie it together with my old 3L site.

I have a 80mm Pro-M maf and 36# injectors to put in soon, but I was sweating where I was going to fit the darn thing because it was so damn big. I think I have that worked out so now I just have to get the intake pipe welded together to install the filter in the fender.
I found aluminum cheap on www.onlinemetals.com since I already have a spearco core so all I have to do is order in the parts and begin designing it.
My 'get running' to do list:
- install injectors
- complete intake pipe and install with MAF
- construct intercooler and install
- install blow-off valve
- plumb the vacuum and pressure lines
- install boost gauge and pressure sensor
- construct water tank for intercooler
- plump lines for intercooler/heat exchanger

Finishing touches:
- manual/electrical boost controller
- turbo timer
- A/F gauge

Originally posted by warmonger:
I have new pictures, but this post is so loaded with them that I will not burden the readers with more.

i think everyone agrees when i say

PLEASE POST PICS !!!

Originally posted by warmonger:
No, no jig. I didn't fab the headers themselves, I only redesigned the piping after them and repaired some problems with them.

I have new pictures, but this post is so loaded with them that I will not burden the readers with more. I will (someday) try to make another webpage dedicated to the turbo build-up and tie it together with my old 3L site.

I have a 80mm Pro-M maf and 36# injectors to put in soon, but I was sweating where I was going to fit the darn thing because it was so damn big. I think I have that worked out so now I just have to get the intake pipe welded together to install the filter in the fender.
I found aluminum cheap on www.onlinemetals.com since I already have a spearco core so all I have to do is order in the parts and begin designing it.
My 'get running' to do list:
- install injectors
- complete intake pipe and install with MAF
- construct intercooler and install
- install blow-off valve
- plumb the vacuum and pressure lines
- install boost gauge and pressure sensor
- construct water tank for intercooler
- plump lines for intercooler/heat exchanger

Finishing touches:
- manual/electrical boost controller
- turbo timer
- A/F gauge

I can help you with the turbo timer install when the time comes. Sure, I should've made a how-to, but I am lazy and I am finding people will use it as a crutch for calling me a "Contour wannabe know-it-all"

....

Originally posted by Stazi the Aussie:

I can help you with the turbo timer install when the time comes. Sure, I should've made a how-to, but I am lazy and I am finding people will use it as a crutch for calling me a "Contour wannabe know-it-all" ....

Totally True Quote!

I've seen a random post or two in the past where I was referred to similarly also.

Just so you know, I used part of your Apex SAFC when figuring out the emanage wiring. See, you are handy to have around!

I'll definitely look forward to getting the help with the turbo timer.

Hey, I'm going to build my intercooler as soon as the metal shows up...ordered it this morning. What are you going to do for an intercooler?

warmonger

I have a 2nd Gen Eclipse IC, but it won't work with the turbo's setup. It WOULD work on the supercharger though as he SC's discharge sits closer to the radiator and points in the right direction and angle, and theres more space between the discharge and the TB. So if any of you SC boys want it, let me know. $50 and it's yours (that's what I bought it off ebay for).

I think I have to get an early Audi IC, as the inlet and outlet on the IC are on the same side of the IC and the air does a "U" shape flow through the IC. As you know the Turbo's discharge is almost on line with the TB, so it make fitting an IC hard, of course I am going air to air to save weight and I have large Cosworth vetns to allow the air to pass up and through the IC and then through the hood.

If all else fails, I have a brand new Spearco Water Injection kit I bought, too.

I would suggest getting what I purchased for my turbo is the clifford avantguard 4 alarm with manual transmission remote start and every option available and even a built in turbo timer (best clifford makes for only $380.00 on ebay new!)
I can't wait to install it just help cut down cost on turbo timer especailly if you need an alarm too. Just my two cents Later JOey

I'm sure you are already done but ah well i will post it anyhow.

A few months ago, I think it was HCI mag had this Integra with a huge custom turbo job. Anyhow the wastegate pipe was actually plumped into a 4 cycle motorcycle muffler than vented to the atmostphere. He ended up cutting a hole in the bumper just aft of the driver side front wheel to sitck out the tip of the muffler. The way it was done actually looked VERY pleasing to the eye and until I read the article I actually had no idea it was a muffler tip.

I think I still have the mag, and although I don't have a scanner I could take pics with my digital camera if you like, it has some good detailed pics of this setup i just described.

Go ahead, I'll take a look at anything. It is wasy to add something to the wastegate pipe. Right now I haven't even test fitted the plastic air-dam to make sure it won't get melted. It is firing straight at the pavement right now and I'm hoping it will sound cool but not too loud when I get on it. The wastegate isn't open under various levels of idle and cruise, only WOT.
I am trying to figure out what kind of pump to use for the liquid side of my intercooler right now.
Any advice? I have an extra fuel pump that I wonder if it would work. I mean if it can handle gasoline it should be able to handle water I would think. 155 LPH.

What do you guys think?

warmonger

Here's the plan: I need to get the car running soon and it will take longer to finish the intercooler than I have. So I am going to pull a 'Stazi (sorry Stazi

) and make the intake pipe for now then install the intercooler when I have it set up right.
Here are some pics of the intake piping, test fitted of course as none of it is welded yet. There is also a shot of the piping under the car and one of the oil drain tube that I made. The MAF is an 80mm pro-M that I barely have room for but it DOES FIT!
It should be running soon after I get this piping welded.

warmonger

Test Fitted intake piping
under car shot of pipes
Oil drain tube
80mm pro-M maf in left front bumper area

very very nice.. however, your third linky does not work..

Check it again, it does now.
You're too quick, I was editing it as you were trying to look.

warmonger

Originally posted by warmonger:
I am trying to figure out what kind of pump to use for the liquid side of my intercooler right now.
Any advice? I have an extra fuel pump that I wonder if it would work. I mean if it can handle gasoline it should be able to handle water I would think. 155 LPH.

What do you guys think?

warmonger

Tom get the pump from BAT, its called a aux heater core pump I beleive, should cost $149 IIRC. I used it on my coolant system with my EWP to run constantly and cycle some warm coolant through my heater core because when it was cold the EWP barely ran making for cold drives!

I beleive its 3GPM at 4' head. More then sufficient for any air/water IC you may come up with.

Nice work and holy fabbing batman! I can't wait to see the final product!

Tom, the filter looks aweful low. Is this the angle or what? I would worry about sucking water into your turbo.

Jason,
The filter is a little low. The pictures don't give a good 3D sense but the MAF is huge! In order to make it fit I would need an extremely tight radius 3" mandrel bend, or cut notches in it and re-weld to make one tighter like I did on that pipe going into the upper intake.
Besides even if I did that it would only change its orientation and the end of the filter would be a bit higher. Right now the end sits just above the horn and the left fog light...it actually touches both of these with the bumber on. The bottom plastic shield/airdam should keep water out of the filter even if I have to run through heavy water on the streets. In a flood I'll drive something else. Last, if the filter got wet it will cause a restriction, only if it was submerged or continually splashed would it start sucking large amounts of water. There is a product made for this by AEM that has a sort of 'suction release valve' that opens when too great a vacuum is felt on the filter. I will check it after driving in rain one of these days and see how it fares.

Tom

I am pretty sure that the AEM is for N/A applications. the turbo may pull hard enough to open up the flange. Do some research befor your pop $100+ down on it (I don't have to tell you that, though

). Good luck with the project. It is looking very good.

Tom,
Just curious about your choice of oil pan inlet devices. Did you go with an "AN" bung? The hardline looks good, and it "appears" you did go with an "AN" fitting, but did you weld it in. Trying to figure it out before I recieve my kit from SF, and seeing as the pan is aluminum, I'm curious of everyone's "plan of action".

DO NOT put a flapper valve in the system!

The turbo makes a terrible vacuum!!

You want as little restriction as possible before the turbo!!!

As a safety precaution I suggest you do not drive your car into any lakes or ponds and you will be just fine with the curent filter placement.

The fender is actually pretty well sealed against any large amounts of water getting into it. With the large underbody cover and fender liner the only other entry point is the lower grill opening. Even that has side deflectors that channel the airflow into the radiator.

I'm not too worried about it happening, but if it did I would come up with something. I agree...don't go driving through ponds and lakes!

QUESTION:
I have a return style fuel system. I am trying to figure out how to stop the fuel spike that can happen when the fuel pressure regulator gets higher pressure on it. If I run 10psi then it will likely add about 10psi pressure, running my injectors at 65psi under boost. I definitely don't need that. I want a real consistent pressure regulator.
Whats the solution? I thought about a one way valve but that will hold it in vacuum. I would have to make some kind of switchable valve for it.

warmonger

So I take it no one has any better ideas on how to solve this problem?????

warmonger

FMU with lower pressure diaphram?

Originally posted by wavrdr:
Tom,
Just curious about your choice of oil pan inlet devices. Did you go with an "AN" bung? The hardline looks good, and it "appears" you did go with an "AN" fitting, but did you weld it in. Trying to figure it out before I recieve my kit from SF, and seeing as the pan is aluminum, I'm curious of everyone's "plan of action".

Originally posted by wavrdr:

Originally posted by wavrdr:
Tom,
Just curious about your choice of oil pan inlet devices. Did you go with an "AN" bung? The hardline looks good, and it "appears" you did go with an "AN" fitting, but did you weld it in. Trying to figure it out before I recieve my kit from SF, and seeing as the pan is aluminum, I'm curious of everyone's "plan of action".

All right All right!
I forgot to respond to it.

It is a 1/2" NPT pipe fitting that fits a 1/2" ID compression fitting from my drain tube. I drilled a hole, then tapped it with a tap. The wall on the oil pan is quite thin but I was able to ket about 2-2.5 threads out of it. The npt fittings self tighten depending on how deep you tap them. I tapped it to about 60-70% so it would have enough of the fitting on the inside and outside of the oil pan. I used medium strength Loc-tite on the threads, screwed in the fitting and let it set. AFter 10 minutes I coated the fitting on the inside of the oil pan with black RTV to insure a positive seal.

Simple.

warmonger

Now how about some ideas for my question??????????

I don't see why having the FP raise dependant on boost is such a problem. Now I understand you may be saying you don't want to run fuel pressure levels that high. So...

What's the FP setting for the Non-SVT FPR? 10lbs less?? What about the early Duratecs???

Rigging a switch/valve that is boost sensitive would work I suppose.

You could always convert to returnless.

Its ALIVE!

I've been driving it around this evening and I must say it is F'in COOL! I've left the wastegate at the stock 7psi setting and I don't have the intercooler done, so it is far from 'complete'. It is however very quick and responsive. The boost is on full by about 3500 rpm or so; it starts pressurizing around 2000+ rpm. All of this means that it takes off quick and pulls hard as hell all the way to the redline. The car doesn't seem to have suffered any loss of low-end power with all that complex piping and this is a sign that the sizing is pretty good. I haven't had a lot of time with it so I will update more later. Here is a picture of the final product (no intercooler yet):

Finished Turbo1
Finished Turbo2

Enjoy, I am!

warmonger

congrats man, you did one hell of a job. cant wait till its all done and we see dyno #s !

G Great news!

YEAH!!!

You'll received my consultant fee in the mail.

Man I wish I could be there to see it run. I'm envious just hearing about it.

It lives. So now I'm wondering about tuning that beast. When is your dyno appointment? Do you think the emanage will suffice for tuning?

Quote:

AFter 10 minutes I coated the fitting on the inside of the oil pan with black RTV to insure a positive seal.

RTV on the inside of the oil pan. I would be a little leary bout that. Look out oil pickup

. Anyways congarts on the install looks great. Can't wait to see #'s

Congrats!
I see from you side on pic, that you are also rinning the GT TB. Do you have a separate plate behind it to hold the gasket tight to the UIM? as you probably realise that the GT TB doesn't have the hump on the top of the flange like the SVT TB does, and so, if it doesn't press against the gasket to seal it to th UIM, you may get boost leaks from there. I myself had a friend TIg an extra piece of Aluminum to the top of my GT TB to create the "hump" and thus seal the TB to the UIM.

I have to post pics again of my set. My discharge pipe look 200% better than the last one!

PS that BOV is the RFL, correct? So is it ReallyFugginLoud?

Originally posted by Stazi the Aussie:
Congrats!
I see from you side on pic, that you are also rinning the GT TB. Do you have a separate plate behind it to hold the gasket tight to the UIM? as you probably realise that the GT TB doesn't have the hump on the top of the flange like the SVT TB does, and so, if it doesn't press against the gasket to seal it to th UIM, you may get boost leaks from there. I myself had a friend TIg an extra piece of Aluminum to the top of my GT TB to create the "hump" and thus seal the TB to the UIM.

I have to post pics again of my set. My discharge pipe look 200% better than the last one!

PS that BOV is the RFL, correct? So is it ReallyFugginLoud?

It looks as if he's made a flat steel adapter plate of some kind behind the TB judging by the first pic. I'd still be worried about the gasket flapping in the breeze though until it was welded to the TB like yours Stazzi, or at least a thicker adapter plate.

Very nice work Tom! I need a ride. Let's see... how many hours drive is it to Texas...

Originally posted by Keyser:
It lives. So now I'm wondering about tuning that beast. When is your dyno appointment? Do you think the emanage will suffice for tuning?

The emanage is the [censored]! I pulled 20 degrees of timing across the top with it and then I verified it with my laptop OBD scan software. Under full throttle the timing hit 19 and 20 degrees from 5-7K rpm but no higher than that. I am running it extremely rich right now and today I am going to lean it out a bit.
It does everything I could need it to do and so far it is doing it well. Of course my timing control device and the low price of the emanage make it more usefull than any other aftermarket fuel tuning device right now; excluding the twEECer.
My dyno appointment wont be happening for a few weeks and it probably wont be in Chandler AZ unfortunately. I really want to complete the intercooler before I go so I don't have to keep on going back.

By the way, where is that timing curve? I would like to model my timing curve after some of the data you have.

warmonger

I didn't put anything behind my 70mm, and I dont think it leaks. Still get 9-10# of boost. I just cut the top part of the stock gasket and used that, along with a bunch of RTV

It might be leaking and I dont know it, but I think it is holding up fine. If it ever does leak, I will have to make a sheetmetal plate of somesort.

BTW, great job on the Turbo, hope to see some numers soon. With all these turbo's appearing, I think the days of us Vortech owners are numbered. Just hope Kinger and Buckshot can do us proud in the S/C vs. T/C HP war

Originally posted by livinsvt:

Quote:

AFter 10 minutes I coated the fitting on the inside of the oil pan with black RTV to insure a positive seal.

RTV on the inside of the oil pan. I would be a little leary bout that. Look out oil pickup . Anyways congarts on the install looks great. Can't wait to see #'s

Leary? Don't be. Its not some huge glob of crap in the oil pan waiting to get sucked in and cause catastrophic failure. It is thin layer surrounding the fitting on the inside of the pan. To put it in perspective I had a crack in my bmw oil pan that split 3 ways from a central point. I drilled a small hole where the 3 cracks met, inserted a screw to create tension and strengthen it, I put super glue on the threads first and also along the hole crack to seal and make it rigid. Then I coated the inside of the pan along the crack and repair with black rtv. That was in 1997 and I just sold the car 5 months ago. Still working perfectly. I inspected the pan when I had to pull it a few years ago for another reason and it was doing just fine.
If you take precautions about cleaning the metal then it will stick very well.

warmonger

Wow! That looks nice! Are you getting any studdering when the BOV vents all that metered air? I had to switch to a BPV on my tbird because it would studder like hell whenever the valve would pop.

Originally posted by bnoon:

Originally posted by Stazi the Aussie:
Congrats!
I see from you side on pic, that you are also rinning the GT TB. Do you have a separate plate behind it to hold the gasket tight to the UIM? as you probably realise that the GT TB doesn't have the hump on the top of the flange like the SVT TB does, and so, if it doesn't press against the gasket to seal it to th UIM, you may get boost leaks from there. I myself had a friend TIg an extra piece of Aluminum to the top of my GT TB to create the "hump" and thus seal the TB to the UIM.

I have to post pics again of my set. My discharge pipe look 200% better than the last one!

PS that BOV is the RFL, correct? So is it ReallyFugginLoud?

It looks as if he's made a flat steel adapter plate of some kind behind the TB judging by the first pic. I'd still be worried about the gasket flapping in the breeze though until it was welded to the TB like yours Stazzi, or at least a thicker adapter plate.

Very nice work Tom! I need a ride. Let's see... how many hours drive is it to Texas...

Stazi and Brad:
Yes it is a GT high perf. TB from MAC, a 70mm. I used a fairly thick, rigid piece of aluminum sheet to cut an adapter plate. It would take more than 10-12 psi I intend to run to separate that. Just trust me on that one. There are no extra fittings on the MAC like there are on the stock 65mm TB's.

You like my "home-boy" intake pipe? I even painted it to forestall the comments that your pipe brought!

Brad, if you can get here then you can ride in it.

warmonger

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
YEAH!!!

You'll received my consultant fee in the mail.

Man I wish I could be there to see it run. I'm envious just hearing about it.

When I get back by KC way we'll go to Outback Steakhouse again...Ok with you?

Thanks for all your help and tuning advice man!
Oh yeah, Thanks to all those CEG'rs who have contributed to this or any of the work I started. Without this site I wouldn't have been anywhere near what I have accomplished now. Many heads are better than one!

Tom

The MAC 70mm TB's have a slightly larger flange than the 65's do, at least the ones I've seen. That should hold your extra adapter in place just fine. The 70mm BBK I had was the same way, though I had a thick piece of steel as my adapter. The hole saw didn't like that to much! LOL!

I doubt I'll make it to Texas, but let me know when/if you get to K.C. again and I'll make the 3 hour drive down to see it.

Originally posted by bnoon:
The MAC 70mm TB's have a slightly larger flange than the 65's do, at least the ones I've seen. That should hold your extra adapter in place just fine. The 70mm BBK I had was the same way, though I had a thick piece of steel as my adapter. The hole saw didn't like that to much! LOL!

I doubt I'll make it to Texas, but let me know when/if you get to K.C. again and I'll make the 3 hour drive down to see it.

Yeah, the TB has had no problems since I got it working last March or so.
You're lucky! If you did make it down here you'd find yourself put to work helping me finish all the small details! lol

warmonger

Originally posted by fst4dr:
I didn't put anything behind my 70mm, and I dont think it leaks. Still get 9-10# of boost. I just cut the top part of the stock gasket and used that, along with a bunch of RTV

It might be leaking and I dont know it, but I think it is holding up fine. If it ever does leak, I will have to make a sheetmetal plate of somesort.

BTW, great job on the Turbo, hope to see some numers soon. With all these turbo's appearing, I think the days of us Vortech owners are numbered. Just hope Kinger and Buckshot can do us proud in the S/C vs. T/C HP war :D

Well...I don't think so.
Let me update you guys and give you some food for thought.

I did some datalogging with the emanage and learned alot!
I decided to go back to square 1 (maybe 2)

and put in the 24# injectors and the stock MAF. I had dyno and Air/Fuel data with this same setup from KC MO last summer so I knew what the A/F ratio would be. All I did in addition was pull timing across the board. The car seemed to run awesome! The boost begins to build as early as 2000 rpm, but full boost comes on about 35-37 hundered rpm. This is telling me the turbo is sized exactly the way I wanted it!. No excessive wheelspin, but about the time the secondaries open I have maximum boost!! Normal driving seems the same as it did before the turbo. Anyway, the car idled good and seemed to run nice other than a few stalls and backfires related to having a blow-off valve rather than a bypass valve.
Here is a recount of the pertinent data I took on a second gear pull with those 24# injectors and the stock MAF:

-5600 rpm
- MAF voltage = 4.75 volts
- inj. Duty Cycle = 97%

- inj. pulse width ~= 21 ms.

** Oh, by the way...pressure was .5 Kg/M^2 or roughly 7psi.

So what does this tell you? Consider again that this is 5600 rpm and I have 1400 more rpm to go. It seems that the stock MAF has been max'ing out at about 300 wHP for the guys at streetflight, so you draw your own conclusions.

I decided to put in my 36# injectors and 80mm pro-m MAF in. The car wouldn't idle at all at first. With extensive adjustments using the emanage I have made them work, but not well. I definitely don't trust the tune with it so far considering I have no dyno A/F data to go with it.
It seems that the SVT computer without a chip can only accept MAF signals within a certain range before the load calculations are too far out. The pcm calculates load based on TPS, RPM and Airflow readings from the MAF. It the MAF voltage is way-off then your load calc's will be out of range and even the emanage can't help that. It seems like its time for the tweecer or a custom chip.
I have talked with streetflight to get a custom chip for 36# injectors and 80mm Pro-M. Lets see if Keyser can meet this challenge.?

Anyway, I will refrain from any real testing until I get the chip that will allow me to safely use the new components. The emanage will work on top of the chip so that isn't a problem either, but I need to get into the ballpark.

I also need to fill the motormounts with urethane to stop the engine rocking as well...the energy susp. inserts aren't good enough.

Thats all for now. I'll update some more later, I bet you all can't wait for the dyno day (though none more eager than myself).

Tom

warmonger

I can't prove with hard data that the stock maf runs out at 300fwhp but that was the estimate the we got with data logging at the shop. At 270 hp a cougar was near 90% maf max voltage. I made it to 290 so 300 is an educated guess.

As for the chip, no problem. With the emanage Tom, I just need to get you in the ballpark and you can dial away till it's the way you want it.

If the BOV is giving you an issue, unscrew the end. Watch because the spring will jump at you. Put a few washers in to tighten the spring tention. This will help with any backfires that you may have.

-Chris

The stock MAF is only "calibrated" to work up to 4.7852 volts (~775 kg/hr or only ~375-380cfm!)
Yes it will read higher (820 kg/hr (~400cfm) max at 5 volts) but the PCM will not recognize it properly.

3L at 5600rpm & .5 bar

That equates to roughly 265cfm ^ .5bar = ~375cfm

2.5L at 6300rpm (turbo's HP peak) & .68 bar

232cfm ^ .68 bar = ~390cfm

Both would correlate pretty well to the limit of the stock MAF.

So if the fuel is tuned right then what is that saying in power to the wheels? Do we need to do the thermodynamic calcs (no way!) or can we approximate like Chris says.
I don't mind believing that this car can turn close to 300HP at 5600 rpm!

I have to admit it is running rich and it doesn't feel like it is that fast, but then I am being gentle and not getting on it.
Well I ordered the chip from SF so its all up to Chris now.
I'm patiently waiting on you Keyser (NOT)! Let me know how its going.

warmonger

The chip came today. I cleared the pcm memeory, plugged it in and it worked like a charm!

Its still running a little too rich I think since I took off in front of this guy and left a cloud of black smoke when the rpm's were above 6K.
Lets just say that these new tires grip way better than the old nitto's and now it rips em free in 2nd gear when the boost comes on. Its only 7psi boost and no intercooler as yet.

The chip has worked wonders. I gave SF the MAF transfer function provided by PRO-M along with some other interpolated points and the injector size, and they plugged it all in for me. With no emanage adjustments the car fired right up and ran smoothly.
The power under full throttle and boost is frickin awesome now! I am really worried about the transmission so I am not going to be doing any hard shifts. Fingers are crossed on that one. Stock clutch is holding good as 7psi, I'll see when the intercooler is on and I'm running 10psi.

So now what.? There are other little details to wrap up, but for now I'm looking for those mustangs and firebirds owners who love to eat up contours!

warmonger

I'm very envious. I want your torque!

man I can't wait to see numbers when it is completely done. Great job!

Tom...you just gave me a wonderful idea! I'm going to send my MAF paperwork to SF, cause I'm still getting a CEL with my chip.

Thank you thank you thank you!

I am going to need a map to your house, a detailed message on where you keep the keys, and a list of times that you are not home, and make sure it has gas

p.s. please leave me a clean pair of shorts for the ride home.

I can't tell you how much fun this is to drive. All I can say to you is:
"You don't want none o' this!"

or

"Come git Some!!"

This car is fricking fast! The trans and clutch are still holding fine and it feels really good. It's so fast in first gear that I have to shift almost immediately after I floor the pedal!

Derk: NO sweat! That is why I post so many details both good and bad. Its a huge knowledgebase for us to draw off of. Hope it works out for you.

Oh yeah, I live in Killeen/Ft. Hood Texas right now so anyone close by want to check it out let me know.
I'm going to try to get up to Dallas in a week or two to get some dyno data and fine tune this beast.

warmonger

Good luck!!