Convert a turbo to a supercharger?

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This isn't a Vortech thread. I'm just curious if anyone knows anything about taking half of the turbo and spinning it to make boost. Just interested in the theory behind it.

Well yeah, that's what a vortech is essentially.

Or the old Paxton ones, or the pro-chargers.

I'd guess that it would not be impossible for the DIY'r but probably unobtainable for most people.

Aside from that, you are back to the point that it is the wasted exhaust energy that spins the turbo so it is very efficient whereas the supercharger uses engine power to do it.
On top of that the centrifugal compressor types don't make good power until the engine rev's are up there.

That one company spun it with compressed Co2...supposed be able to sustain about 4-5 psi at higher rpm

Really? Seems interesting, but instead wouldn't it be smarter to get compressed N2O and save the added weight and drop in efficiency?

Nitrous rules if you set it up right!

I'm actually looking into buying a turbocharger from a junkyard for cheap just to play with the idea of spinning the turbo off of something other then exhaust. It won't be a turbocharger anymore, but it will be some type of charger for sure. The idea is to have the extra boost at a flip of a switch rather then running it all of the time. I'll have to figure out how to make that work with the ECU, but that will come in time.

I've had the idea of an electric supercharger since my Sophomore year in highschool (long time ago) since then the idea has taken off. I'm not talking about the crap you find on eBay either. In my automotive engineering magazine a while back I read about how companies are looking into electric turbochargers for semi's. Theres already a number of prototypes out.

But to create any worthy amount of boost you need an awful lot of energy and it has to come from somewhere. So you almost end up running another alternator, which you might as well be running a supercharger at that point. Theres more to it then just that, but theres some food for thought.

Well, sounds like fun. However remember, nothing is free. That turbo must be spun by something.

The exhaust is wasted energy but that is why they use it to push a turbo.

There are people thinking of a hydraulic driven compressor, or course the electric. Both add just as much complexity as exhaust driven though.

Come to think of it, you could use a little collar around the exhaust pipes with water in it, turn it to steam and let the steam push a turbine. I mean steam engines are very efficient anyway.

You could have a resevior, route the steam, drive the turbine, then collect the cooled water and feed it right back to the boiler.
It would be just as complicated as any of the other designs but you would save exhaust restriction. Of course you'd have no boost until your water was boiling but you could meter the amount of water into the pipes slowly.

I mean if you have nothing but time and want a hobby....

Originally posted by warmonger:
However remember, nothing is free

Very true. Energy just doesn't come out of thin air. I've talked about the electrical supercharger with some of my collogues back in school and we basically came to the same conclusion, the amount of energy needed to provide a sufficent amount of boost would need to come from somewhere and it would take horsepower to get horsepower. This comes back to your quote 'nothing is free'. The steam power is interesting, but you would have the same lag you would with the turbocharger. Although I think it would be worse. To build that kind of pressure I would think it would take quite a bit of driving. One would have to do some analysis to see what the rate of heat transfer would be and what kind of time would be needed to get where you would have to be. The more I think about it this is looking like the stuff I saw back when I was studying the Carnot and Rankine vapor power cycles.

How about an onboard air compressor and tank?

This is getting ridiculous.

How do you plan to run that air compressor? It's the same as an electric supercharger! You still need azz loads of power to run the thing.

Originally posted by CSVT#49:

Originally posted by warmonger:
However remember, nothing is free

Very true. Energy just doesn't come out of thin air. I've talked about the electrical supercharger with some of my collogues back in school and we basically came to the same conclusion, the amount of energy needed to provide a sufficent amount of boost would need to come from somewhere...

Gee wiz you don't say...

Yea I really didn't finish that thought did I.

...amount of energy needed to provide a sufficent amount of boost would need to come from somewhere and there isn't any place that has enough wasted energy that can easily be converted to power.

I think the best idea was to use brakes, the same way the Toyota Prius uses them in their regenerative braking system.

Why don't you have a tank that holds the air, and instead of it spinning a compressor, the air just goes into the intake. You could call it retardcharger.

Actually, the best source of energy is the fuel. We are performance guys so we really don't worry about economy quite as much as we should.

With that said, give me a gas turbine engine powering a big azzed generator. Add a few batteries for storage, but not too much. Then use one electric motor per wheel with very short axles and humongous power cables to keep down resistance.

The turbine produces all the electric power you need, burns clean as hell, can be run on alcohol and still burn clean, is light weight since it isn't fancy and is optimized to run at one specific rpm and the load is varied by fuel modulation.

This gives you these benefits:
- drivetrain mass distributed throughout the car
-low overall mass
-AWD capability
-ABS, Traction/stability controls just by varying motor speeds
-Regenerative breaking
- short axles keep the motors on the frame with unsprung mass low for better road handling.
- extremely flat torque curve from electric motors and with high current capacity allows higher performance.

This eliminates:
-Most drive axle weights since there is a motor at every wheel
- almost no transmission components gears and stuff to transfer torque.
- fluid weights

There's probably more advantages but that is what I can think of now.

Originally posted by warmonger:
With that said, give me a gas turbine engine powering a big azzed generator. Add a few batteries for storage, but not too much. Then use one electric motor per wheel with very short axles and humongous power cables to keep down resistance.

The turbine produces all the electric power you need, burns clean as hell, can be run on alcohol and still burn clean, is light weight since it isn't fancy and is optimized to run at one specific rpm and the load is varied by fuel modulation.

This gives you these benefits:
- drivetrain mass distributed throughout the car
-low overall mass
-AWD capability
-ABS, Traction/stability controls just by varying motor speeds
-Regenerative breaking
- short axles keep the motors on the frame with unsprung mass low for better road handling.
- extremely flat torque curve from electric motors and with high current capacity allows higher performance.

This eliminates:
-Most drive axle weights since there is a motor at every wheel
- almost no transmission components gears and stuff to transfer torque.
- fluid weights

There's probably more advantages but that is what I can think of now.

I always daydreamed that the motorcycle in Akira worked like this, just with two wheels and the electric motors actually IN the wheels. And the other benefit is that you can have computer-controlled active yaw/stability control that's two steps beyond what gets done now, modulating individual wheel speed on the fly. You could even pivot around your own axis like a friggin' tank.

Has anyone heard of Rotrex superchargers. It is basically a supercharger built with a turbocharger compressor but uses a different style of gear drive to allow the compressor to spin faster. I just read abou this in the February 2006 issue of Ford Builder magazine. Some of the advantages they sated in the article:

- Small size ( about the size of a softball)
- Efficiency (10-15% more efficient then a roots style blower)

The c30 series looks like it would be the choice for our motors. You can choose different sized compressor housings. The price for the supercharger is around $1900 but it is just the supercharger and oiling system. You have to make your own bracket and intake tubing. Here are a few links.

Rotrex (if you click on product types you can get specification data sheets that contain the compressor maps)
Wheel 2 Wheel Powertrain (A distributor for Rotrex)
Turbo Magazine article (article about a HKS kit for a 350z.)

- Chris

Ok here an idea

How about a recirculating waterfall in the engine bay that spins the "hot" side of the turbo? All you would need is a pump to catch the water and cycle it back around, Think about it, could be amazing

How about having a clear plexiglass window on the waterfall and adding little naked mermaids while you are at it.

Should keep the turbine nice and HOT....for better efficiency

Originally posted by LoveMySVT:
Has anyone heard of Rotrex superchargers.

I did a bunch of reasearch on them a couple months ago. In theory they sound very good. The efficiencies approach turbos. The problem is that they are using Holset compressor housings. Because they are meant for diesels, you are only in an efficient part of the map for a very short amount of time. The maps are very "thin." The result is a whole lot of hot air.

Once Rotrex starts using standard compressor housings, things should get interesting.

HTH,
BP

Originally posted by warmonger:
How about having a clear plexiglass window on the waterfall and adding little naked mermaids while you are at it.

Should keep the turbine nice and HOT....for better efficiency

Now your talkin!!!!!

freaking amazing im gonna patent that [censored] right quick.

If you had a high enough pressure water it could be done, Just none of these ideas make as much sense as the obvious exhaust drivin way.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay

what more could you want?

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

Originally posted by Stazi:

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

That would be the Skunkworks Autosport Waterfall Turbo Ver. 2.0

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:

Originally posted by Stazi:

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

That would be the Skunkworks Autosport Waterfall Supercharger Ver. 2.0

oh?

Where do I sign up?

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:

Originally posted by Stazi:

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

That would be the Skunkworks Autosport Waterfall Turbo Ver. 2.0

Bwahahaha

Originally posted by Stazi:

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

what about bi mermaids? its not fair just sitting there and watching

Originally posted by 99SEsport2004:

Originally posted by Stazi:

Originally posted by SteedaSVTâ�??¢:
.

But Mermaids? Nekid? In your Engine Bay what more could you want?

Mermaids that dyke out?

what about bi mermaids? its not fair just sitting there and watching

I'm afraid that might become forced induction.