Rounded options up Poll time.......

Why bored? quoted by Buckshot

"than that, I don't agree with the issue of not boring the motor out Tom. The main reason to do it is when using aftermarket pistons it's a lot easier to size the bore to the piston rather than vice versa. With 6 stock grade sizes of pistons ADC ran into that very issue when they ordered a "stock" bore size piston set for a customer. They're now sitting on a set of 3L pistons that are sized for a grade 1 bore block. I just found a high performance coating they can use to build up the piston size enough to be used in other blocks so they can at least salvage something out of the pistons. In all the engines I've done, I've never had a full grade 1 block and the vast majority are grade 2 piston size blocks."

my .02 cents any block no matter how many miles or knocks it can be used. I saw a long block with a knock for $75 and slap a clean bored on it and what you have $200 new motor. High milage blocks will only be found as years go by. I have over 30,000 in my car it will stay with me till I hate it.

I will be ordering my pistons this week except now i will go dished making my CR drop to 8.5:1 so I can put some monster boost to it and keep the cylinder temps down.

Originally posted by BurritaSVT:
Why bored? quoted by Buckshot

"than that, I don't agree with the issue of not boring the motor out Tom. The main reason to do it is when using aftermarket pistons it's a lot easier to size the bore to the piston rather than vice versa. With 6 stock grade sizes of pistons ADC ran into that very issue when they ordered a "stock" bore size piston set for a customer. They're now sitting on a set of 3L pistons that are sized for a grade 1 bore block. I just found a high performance coating they can use to build up the piston size enough to be used in other blocks so they can at least salvage something out of the pistons. In all the engines I've done, I've never had a full grade 1 block and the vast majority are grade 2 piston size blocks."

my .02 cents any block no matter how many miles or knocks it can be used. I saw a long block with a knock for $75 and slap a clean bored on it and what you have $200 new motor. High milage blocks will only be found as years go by. I have over 30,000 in my car it will stay with me till I hate it.

I will be ordering my pistons this week except now i will go dished making my CR drop to 8.5:1 so I can put some monster boost to it and keep the cylinder temps down.

Wait buckshot is getting new pistons or you are?! You never end quoted that ish.

Srry messed up that one.........
i am buying new pistons I was explaining why I See bored better option

I would not spend a dime building the 2.5L engine or anything with 2.5L heads. Period. (well late 2002MY the 2.5L changed)

Nobody can defend the use of a known engine failure waiting to happen much less paying to build something with it. Also trying to justify it is just plain ignorant. 'nuff said.

that customer was me.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I would not spend a dime building the 2.5L engine or anything with 2.5L heads. Period. (well late 2002MY the 2.5L changed)

Nobody can defend the use of a known engine failure waiting to happen much less paying to build something with it. Also trying to justify it is just plain ignorant. 'nuff said.

I Totally disagree.

Originally posted by BurritaSVT:
Why bored? quoted by Buckshot

"than that, I don't agree with the issue of not boring the motor out Tom. The main reason to do it is when using aftermarket pistons it's a lot easier to size the bore to the piston rather than vice versa. With 6 stock grade sizes of pistons ADC ran into that very issue when they ordered a "stock" bore size piston set for a customer. They're now sitting on a set of 3L pistons that are sized for a grade 1 bore block. I just found a high performance coating they can use to build up the piston size enough to be used in other blocks so they can at least salvage something out of the pistons. In all the engines I've done, I've never had a full grade 1 block and the vast majority are grade 2 piston size blocks."

my .02 cents any block no matter how many miles or knocks it can be used. I saw a long block with a knock for $75 and slap a clean bored on it and what you have $200 new motor. High milage blocks will only be found as years go by. I have over 30,000 in my car it will stay with me till I hate it.

I will be ordering my pistons this week except now i will go dished making my CR drop to 8.5:1 so I can put some monster boost to it and keep the cylinder temps down.

I'm not saying to have a professional hone done to match the pistons and even out the bores. The point is, aftermarket shyte usually isn't close to matching the bores exactly so you will HAVE to match your pistons. However, selecting pistons isn't as easy as buying joe schmucks forged jobs. Forged pistons can be a variety of metal compositions. What is rate of expansion on the piston versus the stock piston? Stock pistons have extremely tight piston-bore clearances because they have limited thermal expoansion. Not so on forged jobs. Ring tension, type of hone, all play a role.

Slapping in aftermarket forged pistons with a cheap hone and hoping they will work is as bad as any other option out there.

Tom,
Burrita has either talked himself, or his builder has talked him into needing all this extra work. I'm thinking the latter, well, because he's making money from it!

Hmmm, where to start. I think you guys are completely missing the picture by not having built any of the forged internal motors.

I'm probably the one most influencing Burrita to do a bored out engine and no, I'm not the one building his motor, just an advisor. Here is the thinking as simple as I can make it:
1) 3L blocks often have multiple grades of piston sizes within 1 block. You cannot order forged pistons to multiple diamters to the .0001" in the same batch.
2) Forged piston manufacturers know the material they're manufacturing, have tolerances to .0001" and recommend bore tolerances based on their knowledge of the expansion rate of materials. Don't make the mistake you know more about using the manufacturers product than they do.
3) His current bore is trashed after looking at the condition of his pistons (I have them in hand). He must buy new pistons and if he wants to keep from having to buy a new block, he can just increase the bore size on his current block to the next level which I recommend in .010" increments. If he's currently at .020" overbore, then go to a .030" overbore piston and have the bore matched to it.
4) As far as stock internals go, he's all ready got forged parts, why does he want to go back to stock? Even if he wanted to go with stock pistons his only option is the OEM aftermarket type and depending on the weight, may still cause him to rebalance his assembly.
5) For balancing, the only way he should not have to rebalance the assembly is if the new parts are lighter than the last set or within a few grams of the old ones. If they are significantly heavier, than he must rebalance the crank as well.

Hopefully this clears things up.

Rick

Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Hmmm, where to start. I think you guys are completely missing the picture by not having built any of the forged internal motors.

I'm probably the one most influencing Burrita to do a bored out engine. Here is the thinking as simple as I can make it:
1) 3L blocks often have multiple grades of piston sizes within 1 block. You cannot order forged pistons to multiple diamters to the .0001" in the same batch.
2) Forged piston manufacturers know the material they're manufacturing, have tolerances to .0001" and recommend bore tolerances based on their knowledge of the expansion rate of materials. Don't make the mistake you know more about using the manufacturers product than they do.
3) His current bore is trashed after looking at the condition of his pistons (I have them in hand). He must buy new pistons and if he wants to keep from having to buy a new block, he can just increase the bore size on his current block to the next level which I recommend in .010" increments. If he's currently at .020" overbore, then go to a .030" overbore piston and have the bore matched to it.
4) As far as stock internals go, he's all ready got forged parts, why does he want to go back to stock? Even if he wanted to go with stock pistons his only option is the OEM aftermarket type and depending on the weight, may still cause him to rebalance his assembly.
5) For balancing, the only way he should not have to rebalance the assembly is if the new parts are lighter than the last set or within a few grams of the old ones. If they are significantly heavier, than he must rebalance the crank as well.

Hopefully this clears things up.

Rick

All good points Rick.

My thoughts pertain to points 4) and 5) of your post.

I offered Burrita new 3.2447 bore forged pistons and a stock undamaged block. Hence he would only need to dip the block at most (if he REALLY wanted to) and he would NOT have to hone it. The factory honing is still VERY obvious and unblemished. With this combo he could take his crank and forged rods and place them into this block with pistons that WOULD be lighter (if only marginally) - seeing as he had larger 3.265 pistons to start with - and he would not have to rebalance anything.

Hence his added costs he laid out for boring, honing, rebalancing etc can be omitted.

Realistically the only thing he needs to do is transfer his rod and crank over. All the other iems like gaskets, bearings and bolts are a wash as he needs those for any path he will take.

Burrita told me new pistons from Diamond in the 2.5L bore are $450 - so I offered to match that price. So effectively outside of the cost of a new piston kit (the block I said i would give him for free) he has no additional prep costs that he needs to address.

Stazi,

How did you come by the measurements for you pistons? Did you measure the bore of that particular block you have or did you base them off of the stock listed dimensions for OEM pistons? What I'm getting at is do you know for a fact that your piston to bore clearance is .0045"? If not, then you're fooling yourself thinking he only has to clean up the block (that's strictly a best case scenario).

Rick

The measurements come with the pistons' documentation.

No sh!t?! I mean how did you decide what size to make the pistons in the first place, did you pull the diameter out of a hat, the CD rom, or measure the bores on the block you're trying to give Burrita? (hint: only one of these options is viable)

Rick

They were bought as a drop in for the 2.5L engine - I got them to suit the nominal 2.5L bore.

Uhhh. wrong answer. You've got to fit the piston to a specific bore size, not just the mid point of the road from 6 different choices.

Also, here's a copy of Terry's email
"Sorry Aussie but....

They were bought as a drop in for the 2.5L engine - I
got them to suit the nominal 2.5L bore.

...is the wrong answer...they would make them all 'mid
point' i.e Grade 2.....You MUST be very specific with
ALL dimensions when you are an engine builder...you
can always remove metal but you can't put it back!!!!"

Thanks,
Rick

Understood. I slight boring may be required then. Seeing as the block I measured out back come out to 82.35mm

I need to measure these things myself rather than go off the documentation - and another thing I just realised is that I have a 2000 SVT which has a smaller bore still.

I may need the used block I have at my disposal if I build up a 2.5L as it's a 99 and would have the larger bore to start with.

Originally posted by todras:

Not a problem I have a engine builder about 5 minutes from my house that will bore, hone and cone the block for $16 per hole, so $96 to do it.

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I would not spend a dime building the 2.5L engine or anything with 2.5L heads. Period. (well late 2002MY the 2.5L changed)

Nobody can defend the use of a known engine failure waiting to happen much less paying to build something with it. Also trying to justify it is just plain ignorant. 'nuff said.

I Totally disagree.

Not surprising but still not defendable Tom.

I'd like to see someone try to defend choosing a known engine failing flaw (2.5L heads) over an option that does not have that flaw (3L heads). Exactly. There is no possible excuse you could dream up that would cover it. Period.

I don't care to hear anything relating to power production or I had my hybrid XX miles and it's still luckily running. It's still a ticking time bomb running the POS non-draining head design. You can not deny that fact and that's the entire point.

I had my 2.5L for 34k miles before it shelled due to the fatal head flaw. That was 34k miles of Russian roulette I was lucky enough to win. There was no way in hell I would have even considered rebuilding that flawed design. I can't fathom why others still do personally. There is no logic to it considering the known facts and a viable alternative that is even predominantly cheaper to build instead.

wow interesting this comes up now after everyone bought pistons from bore size. Honing from my understanding or I was told will increase the bore size at least .0001 which starts to get bigger than the clearance needed. I went back to my builder and remeasured the block the block was over by one thousand. If I had my pistons I would remeasure the pistons to check for there dimensions but Rick has them now.
I keeop rememebering seeing the ring gap on the top of the piston when I dissasembled them I have a bad feeling that you should not be able to see the rings at all since 5 thousands is real minute. Once I get them back I will recheck them.
Diamond said it was tuning and oil problems. I was wondering if I my water injection was maybe making my cylinder washed out.

So hence I will be boring a 3 liter now just 20 over

Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Hmmm, where to start. I think you guys are completely missing the picture by not having built any of the forged internal motors.

I'm probably the one most influencing Burrita to do a bored out engine and no, I'm not the one building his motor, just an advisor. Here is the thinking as simple as I can make it:
1) 3L blocks often have multiple grades of piston sizes within 1 block. You cannot order forged pistons to multiple diamters to the .0001" in the same batch.
2) Forged piston manufacturers know the material they're manufacturing, have tolerances to .0001" and recommend bore tolerances based on their knowledge of the expansion rate of materials. Don't make the mistake you know more about using the manufacturers product than they do.
3) His current bore is trashed after looking at the condition of his pistons (I have them in hand). He must buy new pistons and if he wants to keep from having to buy a new block, he can just increase the bore size on his current block to the next level which I recommend in .010" increments. If he's currently at .020" overbore, then go to a .030" overbore piston and have the bore matched to it.
4) As far as stock internals go, he's all ready got forged parts, why does he want to go back to stock? Even if he wanted to go with stock pistons his only option is the OEM aftermarket type and depending on the weight, may still cause him to rebalance his assembly.
5) For balancing, the only way he should not have to rebalance the assembly is if the new parts are lighter than the last set or within a few grams of the old ones. If they are significantly heavier, than he must rebalance the crank as well.

Hopefully this clears things up.

Rick

Well, I've put forged pistons in before but hone and selection was done by someone else. I'm guessing you didn't do your own hone and sizing either right?

You points are good and as I stated, I'm not saying NOT to hone if necessary. What is important is the type of hone match the type of ring used. THe bore clearance needs to match the operating temperature and the type of alloy used in the pistons. Just honing and slapping them in is not really any better than snatching aftermarkets pistons of any type and going at it.

Fugg it, he's got about the same amount of money to go for most of his options. I can't imagine he'd want to make more work on top of what he already has to go through. Who's gonna prep the 3L on top of all this honing and forged internals anyway?
My point is his cost estimates for the 3L are lower than they really will be.
Whatever. I felt IMHO that the 2.5L swap with the forged pistons and his old rods is the way to go. If you guys can see any way that the other swaps are actually simpler or cheaper (in reality now) then go for it.
I have no benefit in it. I'm done, that's my $3 in advice.

Since Stazi pistons are the for the 2000 bore then the block could be easily hone out to the size. So yes I would have bought the setup from him. But since I sold my PNP heads I figured that I could go 3 liter for the same price because the money I received for my heads basically bought me a 2002 escape motor with 56k miles on it for 550.00 shipped in perfect shape.
And after seeing what you guys are getting out of the 3 liter with just minute boost levels> I rather invest my money in the 3 liter platform. And who know the 3 liter will get better as they offer more for the 3 liters now.

So Now I will be posting in the liter section because I made my mind up. thanks guys I will let this post rest I will post further questions in the 3 liter section.

Originally posted by BurritaSVT:
Since Stazi pistons are the for the 2000 bore then the block could be easily hone out to the size. So yes I would have bought the setup from him. But since I sold my PNP heads I figured that I could go 3 liter for the same price because the money I received for my heads basically bought me a 2002 escape motor with 56k miles on it for 550.00 shipped in perfect shape.
And after seeing what you guys are getting out of the 3 liter with just minute boost levels> I rather invest my money in the 3 liter platform. And who know the 3 liter will get better as they offer more for the 3 liters now.

So Now I will be posting in the liter section because I made my mind up. thanks guys I will let this post rest I will post further questions in the 3 liter section.

Oh, I see. You were calculating selling your heads into the deal? I didn't know you sold them already. Well, I stand corrected, a 3L would be very much a viable option if you aren't tied to your old heads.

As far as 3L boost, yeah

. I probably have had as much power potential on my stock pistons and moderate boost as you've had full blown forged.

My pistons are for the older SVT bores not the 2000 And so I am unsure whether the 2000 block could be bored out to the required 3.2447 bore _ may need to bore out a regular 2.5L bore

Or someone else can offer to buy these pistins from me

You know I am worried my record will be beat so i must keep up with all your hp gains

If I can get those heads off of Jesse for hardly since I doubt if I he will sell now because of the oiling issue deliema. So the less expensive he sells them the more I can spend on oil problem. Worst comes to worst I will use my oval ports if the his one of kind heads are to much to wrk with.

I am having my intercooler built now to replace my outdated one. My next problem will be later on is my T3?T4 will be too small........

well FYI...the specs on my pistons were done according to the machine shop's measuring. My machinist talked to Diamond directly!!! SO mine'll work!!!

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I'd like to see someone try to defend choosing a known engine failing flaw (2.5L heads) over an option that does not have that flaw (3L heads). Exactly. There is no possible excuse you could dream up that would cover it. Period.

I don't care to hear anything relating to power production or I had my hybrid XX miles and it's still luckily running. It's still a ticking time bomb running the POS non-draining head design. You can not deny that fact and that's the entire point.

I had my 2.5L for 34k miles before it shelled due to the fatal head flaw. That was 34k miles of Russian roulette I was lucky enough to win. There was no way in hell I would have even considered rebuilding that flawed design. I can't fathom why others still do personally. There is no logic to it considering the known facts and a viable alternative that is even predominantly cheaper to build instead.

Come on now. Don't think of it as a fatal flaw as there are too many factors. Oil drainback is one potential problem that can happen because we've seen the head design.
It can be circumvented easily enough with mods.

In my opinion, running better rod bearings, a little extra oil and maybe a tad thicker oil type instead of all the 0w oils would easily prevent bearing failure. Adding the drainbacks as I talked about before would be easy, really easy so you can take that variable out of the book entirely.

And if you can't rely on mileage to determine engine reliability, then what can you rely on. THere is no perfect engine out there and when flaws are found you just adapt to them.