CAM Driven S/C? - CEG Archives

Actually there have been camshaft driven superchargers on cars before and they work well. Pontiac made one in.... '87 I think.

That is why that new waterpump assembly for the later duratecs looks so promising. It could drive something else besides a pump.

Also, the camshaft is probably as strong or stronger than a standard cam because it is tubular. Didn't you invent the Aussie bar based on the strength of tubular steel and lighter weight?

The metal is also work hardened when the cam components are installed as the ball bearing pressed through the center expands the metal.
I'd say if you used it with a cogged belt and didn't demand too much pressure out of the system that it would work fine. I'm sure it would have different longevity versus the other cams and chains on the other bank though. I'd personally use a different method, but it's possible.

The shaft of Vortech is not the weakness, it's the connection point. Which with proper upgrading works just fine. Vortech has changed the shaft connection point. I do not know of any issues, but I also do not know anyone that has one either....LOL

the cam will not take the stresses of running a SC.

Originally posted by NothernMystique:

Originally posted by Stazi:
Seeing as the pulley on the only usable cam (bank2 exhaust cam) runs the W/P AND it uses a belt 1/2" wide, I doubt it would have enough grip to drive any supercharger worth a dam. Plus the extra stress on the thin cam could cause it to snap.

Not feasible at all.

I know there would have to be an addition of a correct pully, or the equivalent of a very short jack shaft (wash my mouth out with soap). My concern was with the "snapping" of the cam.. Is the cam rod significantly weaker/thinner than the vorcrap jack shaft??

You seemed definitive in your answer "not feasable at all"

I'm going to check with RSM racing (the company that has use the modified cam pully, or something attached to it, I'm not sure) about the reliability and success wrt breakdowns and boost)

Any one ever seen this in action?

Engineers have the right to be difinitive in their answers because the usually know what they are talking about.

Even if it was do you really wanna spend the extra dough to make something like this when the ADC turbo kit is out there!?

Typical Newbie behaviour - thinks he's going to do something revolutionary and instead ends up fading into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

I did that on a board once. I wanted to put a toyota V6 in an MR2...they told me to go to hell and that it has been done before, but that it wasn't a worthy swap considering the HP:$

This was 4 years ago tho. I've learned all too much since then.

Originally posted by Stazi:
Typical Newbie behaviour - thinks he's going to do something revolutionary and instead ends up fading into oblivion, never to be heard from again.

Sorry about the delay Stazi, I do not have the opportunity to spend as much time on the boards as you do. It seems like you felt I was disrespecting your first post. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings, that was not the intention.

I have seen a Cam drive a supercharger on several Chevy's. Respectfully I do not assume to know the differences between a Chevrolet Cam and Ford Cam. I merely suggest that if it is successful on another vehicle maybe it could work on ours.

I should also point out the fact that since I saw it on another car, the application would not be revolutionary as you suggest.

I'm not sure what discipline of engineering you've been licensed(I assume Mech)I'm a licensed P.Eng (indy) so I won't try to challenge your stress and shear knowledge if you've done the math, and you say the load will snap the Cam I can respect that.

I will add that you'd get better respect if you helped newbies or non-technical people understand rather than summarily dismiss them.

and I'm still saying you that you have to define the stresses you are saying the cam couldn't take.

I'm not going to build one and I'm not that interested, but I'm convinced that if the boost pressures required were low then this would work.

3-4 psi on one of these engines will do a lot for performance.
I'd be willing to bet that a cam driven blower cold support 3 psi and not snap anything. I'm also aware that tube shafts (like rear wheel drive driveshafts) are able to withstand just as much stress as a solid shaft of smaller size.
If he's thinking of getting 10psi out of it then I agree its hopeless. But something to make the intake more efficient then maybe...

Who cares if it can be done. The question is why? The Vortech unit is now reliable (again, dont know anyone with a new model that has failed) or can be made reliable by some one on the board

Or go Turbo and have traction problems...

You'll have traxion issues with the blower too!

Originally posted by KnuKonceptz:
Who cares if it can be done. The question is why? The Vortech unit is now reliable (again, dont know anyone with a new model that has failed) or can be made reliable by some one on the board

Or go Turbo and have traction problems...

I was actually thinking about the powerdyne SC. The "silent drive" with no oil requirements seemed attractive from a reliability and installation perspective. I have to search through CEG to determine if they are good blowers.

BTW-The upgrade kit for vortec is $2016, and you have to send in your blower for redesign of the drive shaft. I think there is a better price if you are the original owner. Any original owners out there who already sold their units??? If I get a massive discount for the upgrade, I'll split some savings with you

Originally posted by NothernMystique:

I was actually thinking about the powerdyne SC. The "silent drive" with no oil requirements seemed attractive from a reliability and installation perspective. I have to search through CEG to determine if they are good blowers.

There is a guy on a local forum of mine selling one for 650$
F/S Powerdyne BD-600 Centrifigual Supercharger

Anytime you are pushing 250+ FWHP you are going to have traction issues. A Quaife or Torsen will help a great deal with them, but they still exist. The real killer is Wheel Hop. Get better bushings (Urethane) and an LSD and it goes bye bye.
You have to come gently out of the hole and mash it in a linear fashion as you get moving...
Ahhh... I remember downshifting into 3rd at 40 and smoking the tires.... Oh the fun!

Originally posted by warmonger:
and I'm still saying you that you have to define the stresses you are saying the cam couldn't take.

ask terry, he's the one that said no years ago when someone first came up with this hair brained idea!

I think you'd have to agree though that using the cam to turn a dinky water pump is alot different than using it to spool up a supercharger. And what good is 3-4psi anyway? Get yourself a 50 shot and call it a day...and more productive at that. Cheaper too.

Originally posted by TGO:

ask Terry, he's the one that said no years ago when someone first came up with this hair brained idea!

And your point is?? Am I supposed to dignify this with a response??

Back on topic:

I didn't say I'D do it!! I just said the 3-4psi would go a long way.

Personally...I know better than to take OTHER peoples words on things anyway.

Why don't you search for the old pontiac sunbird (??) and see what a cam driven supercharger did for that car. Then tell me that a camshaft can't drive anything. Not only that, it used a cheap old style cam and not ones like ours that are lighter and stronger.

BTW, 4 psi was enough to push Wavrdr's SVT into the mid thirteens in the 1/4 mile!!

I already stated athat I was running a 3.8psi spring in my wastegate and 3 passengers on the way to atlanta and I whipped my buddy's Audi S4 with chip and exhaust. So ummm yeah. 4psi does a LOT for our engines.

Other than THAT, yeah I agree a 50 shot of nitrous is easier and really cool. However, the bottle does run out.
In a long run, I'd take a 4psi blower that is always on over a 50 shot kit....assuming the kit worked.

I think you'd have to agree though that using the cam to turn a dinky water pump is alot different than using it to spool up a supercharger. And what good is 3-4psi anyway? Get yourself a 50 shot and call it a day...and more productive at that. Cheaper too.

Originally posted by warmonger:
Why don't you search for the old pontiac sunbird

Don't remind me. I get to wake up and drive my ass to work in one everyday.

Mark

hahaha. At least you've got an SVT.

Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
The real killer is Wheel Hop. Get better bushings (Urethane),POLY ROLL RESISTORS, and an LSD and it goes bye bye.

fixed.

The #1 way to virtually eliminate all wheel hop is sturdy solid roll resistors. Trust me

Originally posted by pole120:

Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
The real killer is Wheel Hop. Get better bushings (Urethane),POLY ROLL RESISTORS, and an LSD and it goes bye bye.

fixed.

The #1 way to virtually eliminate all wheel hop is sturdy solid roll resistors. Trust me

I have those and a quaife.

Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:

Originally posted by pole120:

Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
The real killer is Wheel Hop. Get better bushings (Urethane),POLY ROLL RESISTORS, and an LSD and it goes bye bye.

fixed.

The #1 way to virtually eliminate all wheel hop is sturdy solid roll resistors. Trust me

I have those and a quaife.

I know

Originally posted by pole120:

Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:

Originally posted by pole120:

Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:
The real killer is Wheel Hop. Get better bushings (Urethane),POLY ROLL RESISTORS, and an LSD and it goes bye bye.

fixed.

The #1 way to virtually eliminate all wheel hop is sturdy solid roll resistors. Trust me

I have those and a quaife.

I know

I knew that you knew. I was just making sure that you knew that I knew that you knew!

The extra cyclic loading coming back from the inertia of the S/C spooling up and slowing down, would reek havoc on the tensioners of the cams. Not to mention the extra twist coming from trying to run a S/c on top of the loading from the valvetrain.

It's just not a good idea, when you think about it from an engineering POV.

definitely true. I don't think I've ever seen it on a DOHC motor. The car I saw used a geared cam and wasn't DOHC.

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by TGO:
...I was running a 3.8psi spring in my wastegate and 3 passengers on the way to atlanta and I whipped my buddy's Audi S4 with chip and exhaust. So ummm yeah. 4psi does a LOT for our engines....

Mr. Monger, I will take that bet! Your buddy must have been driving like a 450 lb woman in a leather recliner! I am chipped and push 16PSI. I have beaten so many "fast cars" that is just ain't right. I have yet to track the car, but I assume high 12's or very low 13's and that is not what the car is geared for. Find me on the freeway and take your chances.
BTW- was he tiptronic or 6spd manny?

Can't wait to see you! Hahaha!

Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
I did that on a board once. I wanted to put a toyota V6 in an MR2...they told me to go to hell and that it has been done before, but that it wasn't a worthy swap considering the HP:$

This was 4 years ago tho. I've learned all too much since then.

Pete, I think someone did put a V6 into an MR2. It was last years SCC USSC winner. Im pretty sure it was a V6 at least...

Originally posted by Rev. Po-Jay:

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by TGO:
...I was running a 3.8psi spring in my wastegate and 3 passengers on the way to atlanta and I whipped my buddy's Audi S4 with chip and exhaust. So ummm yeah. 4psi does a LOT for our engines....

Mr. Monger, I will take that bet! Your buddy must have been driving like a 450 lb woman in a leather recliner! I am chipped and push 16PSI. I have beaten so many "fast cars" that is just ain't right. I have yet to track the car, but I assume high 12's or very low 13's and that is not what the car is geared for. Find me on the freeway and take your chances.
BTW- was he tiptronic or 6spd manny?

Can't wait to see you! Hahaha!

Yeah. We'll bet a beer at the barbecue or something. You'll be buying the whole 6 pack.

I'll be laughing ALL the way over to the barbecue for that matter...

He has the 2001 6spd Audi S4 chipped, so-called 325HP or whatever it is, 16psi, catback exhaust, etc. Like I said, sounds the same as what you are talking about. He was by himself though I'll give it to him that he had a full tank of gas.

There is no way you'll hang if we can get to the top of second gear. I'm going to assume you'll launch better than he did and give you first gear.

Hahaha. Say hello again to the rear SVT bumper and ground effects.

I have to admit though, I had the timing ramped the fug up when I had it on the 4 psi setting. I mean really high, tuned to the edge on 93 octane. Very fun for just four psi.

Remember, you have a 2.7L engine with twin KO3 turbo's. Those suckers barely wheeze out enough air to power a 2.0L normally.
They are way at the top of their efficiency range on a 2.7L at 16psi. I looked into the borg warner turbos because my Volvo S40 comes with a single K04 on a 2.5L.
The Audi R4 comes with the twin K04s and that is why it runs pretty good.
Larger single turbos are generally more efficient and I actually get 4psi boost by 2500 rpm with this new piping system. I get 8psi by around 3400.

Man...it's ok. I've warned you!

BTW, you did know that I was trapping 109mph in the quarter with the older pipes at between 7-8psi didn't you? And I have been tuning my own car now....

Oh yeah...I like Full Sail Pale Ale, or Bass Ale, or Newcastle Brown Ale, or Guiness. They're my favorites.

Originally posted by NothernMystique:

Originally posted by KnuKonceptz:
Who cares if it can be done. The question is why? The Vortech unit is now reliable (again, dont know anyone with a new model that has failed) or can be made reliable by some one on the board

Or go Turbo and have traction problems...

I was actually thinking about the powerdyne SC. The "silent drive" with no oil requirements seemed attractive from a reliability and installation perspective. I have to search through CEG to determine if they are good blowers.

BTW-The upgrade kit for vortec is $2016, and you have to send in your blower for redesign of the drive shaft. I think there is a better price if you are the original owner. Any original owners out there who already sold their units??? If I get a massive discount for the upgrade, I'll split some savings with you

Do you have an older SC from Vortech? If so there is a much cheaper upgrade....

http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=turbo&Number=256308&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

With the Turbo, you get power sooner as boost build earlier. Which causes a bigger tracion problem then the SC does. The guys with Turbo's are making great dyno numbers, but nothing spectacular at the track. What good is the power if it can be put down. Demon's N/A 3L is very close to a Turbo. I cant recall an SC 1/4 time as most are sidelined. Did Rick ever get out to track?

I sold my Vortech off when I bought my G35c, and fianlly getting back to the 3L project. Maybe I'll find a used SC and get back at it......

Originally posted by KnuKonceptz:

Do you have an older SC from Vortech? If so there is a much cheaper upgrade....

http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=turbo&Number=256308&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

I sold my Vortech off when I bought my G35c, and fianlly getting back to the 3L project. Maybe I'll find a used SC and get back at it......

That is too funny, I have the exact same bearing fabrication on the kit I have. I was wondering why I never could find it in the instructions

I already have both a powerdyne blower and the vortech kit. I wanted to try the powerdyne since it is belt driven and requires no oil connection. Awe, F**k it, I'll just put the kit on and wait till it breaks before I switch over to the powerdyne.

Thanks for the feedback guys.