just making sure here...
the maf is placed in between the air filter and the compressor.....right?
why wouldnt it be after the compressor just before the intercooler?
It depends upon what your software is set up for. Suck-through or blow-through.
For the Contour, because we have a hot wire MAF, it is a better idea to use a bypass valve with a suck-through system.
That way all of the air is being metered. If you try to use a BOV with a suck-through system, you run in to a temporary rich situation. Your PCM thinks your engine is using a bunch of air, when you're actually just venting it.
HTH,
BP
Blow through with a Hot-Wire MAF is not a good idea as it'll slowly coat the wires in oil giving you worse and worse MAF readings.
I have an ADC chip and im doing further tuning with greddy E-manage. I also am going to use a HKS SSQV blow off valve.
I planned on placing the maf just before the compressor, and having the BOV 12-24" from the TB (i was told this is ideal BOV placement)
i dont mind the temporary rich reading...unless it has long term damaging effects....
Who told you 10-24" away and why? I don't have a problem with it but i was just wondering why. I would put mine on the short side of that since you won't have 24" to play with considering your compressor discharge to the throttlebody distance will be like 24" TOTAL, including the path through the intercooler.
Also, I put my MAF in the fender with the filter. I have a pic somewhere.
It keeps everything cool and it gives no driveability issues. You have to lengthen the MAF wires by cutting the plug with a few inches of wire and then adding in about 12" of wire. Make sure to solder the ends of the wires so no corrosion builds up. Also there isn't that much room and you will do better not to have it in the way if it isn't necessary.
That's what I was thinking. I don't even have 24" of pipe between the Turbo and TB.
My BOV sits about 5-6" from the TB and works perfect.
he said in another thread somewhere that he is going with a front mount so he will have alot of piping
Still, why would you mount it so far from the origin of the reversion pulse? I would stay with 12" for the fastest, most effective, venting.
Yes, I'm going with front mount. I don't feel like bothering with water lines and pumps for a water-air intercooler. Front mount looks badass and im very aware of the pressure drop along the length of the pipes. My Spearco core I got has a .2 pressure drop, so that isnt too bad.
I know a tuner here in town, and from his general experince he told me that the best BOV placement is 12-24" from the TB.
Now, I am going to put the maf as close to the fender as possible. And the BOV will be close to the TB, i didnt want to place it more than 12-14". I'll show you guys in pics once i finish putting this thing together. Hopefully in the next 3 weeks.
Thanks for the help guys.
I'll post up a pic of my current setup tonight
Originally posted by fastcougar:
I'll post up a pic of my current setup tonight
Looking forward to it. 
Car isn't running right (bad recurring mis in cylinder #5). Also throwing codes for running too lean. The car was tuned at an altitude of 4,500 ft. and I'm at 500 ft. I fear that the tuner set a fix parameter for the altitude somehow. The system will be fitted to my built up 3L sometime this winter ... Hope to have the Cougar running by spring.
Needs a turbo blanket and a better wastegate I think. That turbonetics has a small diameter inlet I guess. Still looks pretty good overall and as long as there is no boost creep it will be no big deal.
I would guess you just have a poor tune. THe altitude considerations should be minimal at best and not cause misfires. This is a A/F issue I bet.
Get a wideband on it when you can.
'
That wastegate tubing setup you have there is truly baffling unless I am just retarded.
You're taking wastegated air and shooting it right back at the turbine outlet? That makes no sense.
Not to mention the tubing is tiny.
Someone please inform me if I took my retard pills this morning and don't know what i'm looking at.
That wastegate setup is pretty poor, not to mention the fact that the pipe is WAY to small to prevent boost creep and Turbonetics W/G's suck.
The intake plumbing is pretty nicely done though.
PS, please tell me it's just a optical illusion and that the hose from the BOV is not connect to a boost controller.
At the end of that tube it might be a mechanical boost controller... Hard to tell.
That's what it looks like to me, like he has the BOV connected to a boost controller - I hope not, cos I can't for the life of me figure out why you would do that
Originally posted by Stazi:
That's what it looks like to me, like he has the BOV connected to a boost controller - I hope not, cos I can't for the life of me figure out why you would do that
i was thinking the same thing.
Oh Doh! I didn't even see that. I guess the blow off never works unless he's really boosting then.
Actually, under part throttle that would preven it from being used and then he wouldn't have to worry about going too rich.
On the other hand on mildly aggressive driving it will stall out the compressor. Hmm.
Those where pictures taken before I bought the car ... I will get some up this weekend as I am working on the car all weekend if weather permits.
Word of warning. I know that car came from Utah, and the owner was listing it as having an ADC chip AND being dyno tuned by a local shop called Modern Garage. Double if not triple check every mod on that car just to be on the safe side!
If you need to talk to Modern Garage, I can get contact info if needed. Feel free to PM me, and I'd be happy to help you out if there are any issues.
Honestly...I doubt the thing was actually ever tuned all the way. I would pull the chip and send it to ADC to check it and maybe give you a base tune.
I would also do a compression test...what is the oil pressure? Does it have a gauge? Then check all the sensors that may have to do with the CEL.
Maybe the boost control on their was to help the BOV not open under light load...that's what mine would do. Then the car would buck like crazy b/c it would just let a bunch of unmetered air in and out. I just put washers in their.
PM if you need any info...I had lots of bugs in my custom set-up, but I fixed them all. I would be willing to help.
FYI I am in UT too...I guess us UT guys build our own set-ups.
Oh yes...I would double check the injectors as well tomake sure they aren't stock.
Putting washer in the BOV to stop it opening under light l;oad is the right thing to do. Jim,my-rigging a boost controller onto a BOV to do the same thing is
The should try reading the instructions for setting the BOV
Well, on a cool note, my BOV is making a lot more noise today. I'm running the boost at about .55 bar according to my gauge maybe 8psi?
Anyway the car is so insanely fast again. Dang I feel like I'm gong to kill myself when I do a zero to 60 run. I have to feather it in 1st but it will mostly hold in 2nd gear.
I bet I could get some serious times with this thing if there was a track locally.
glad to see you ended up buying that contour fastcougar. Would love the see you put that into a 3L cougar
Just thought that I would resurrect this thread to reply on the turbo setup in the Contour that I bought. Let me start by saying that I'm totally floored with how "ghetto" this entire thing was made.
1) The external wastegate is placed off the downpipe, NOT the up-pipe. I can't explain that other than to say the installer/designer had their head 100% up their ass!
2) The welds are HORRIBLE!
3) Did you read #1?
No surprise that the car runs like crap and has a constant misfire. Luckily for the car, she isn't pinping or knocking ... thank god! Completely removing the system from the Contour and fixing A LOT of issues on the car (headlights, grill, sunroof, radio antenna, etc.). The only mechanical shortcoming that I have found is the passenger's side CV boot is split and there is CV grease everywhere in the suspension on the passenger's side. She hunts for idle badly and stalls when slow shifting (IACV no doubt). I think that uninstalling the turbo system and chip and reverting to stock components, the car tuning issues will be completely resolved ... <crosses fingers>
Looks like I paid top $$$ for a POS turbo system. I completely hold myself responsible for buying a car sight unseen on the internet ... I will NEVER make that mistake again.
I plan on spending the next few weeks uninstalling the turbo system and reverting the car back to stock. On a good note, the exterior of the car is beautiful!
I will be using the turbo components on a fresh built system in the Cougar. The Cougar's system will be done pretty much from scratch now since I will need to account for the wastegate and don't like some of the tubing routes. Oh well, serves me right!
man, that sucks badly! hope you get everything straightened out.
Yikes! Thats terrible. While reading it I was thinking "well, even though the welds are crappy he can at least use the piping as a jig and fix a few things like the wastegate, no biggie." Then, I got to where you said its routed terribly, so it sounds like its headed for the scrap heap. Too bad.
You can probably remake the plumbing from the TC->IC->TB cant you? Seems to me like the poor routing would be on the hot side.
I'm sure it's fixable.
We're here to help.
Should've bought my car and turbo when I was going to sell it earlier this year! You would have had a meticulously cared for and designed setup.
Oh well. I'm kinda glad I didn't sell it now. Still, I may sell mine in the future but hopefully not right away.
Originally posted by Stazi:
I'm sure it's fixable.
We're here to help.
Yeah, probably. I mean heck, it ran and the motor didn't blow up. I haven't figured the wastegate location out yet and why the car never blew up but hey....I'm sure it will all work itself out.
the pics looked like the WG was installed after the wastegate hole in the turbo...which should work...it is just a weird design.
If it were installed after the turbo then there could be no bypass of the exhaust around the turbine and it would overboost every time.
It must be between the up/down pipe and just not using the internal wastegate.
but if it were installed in the same plave an internal wastegate flapper was ...it could still be after the turbo. Does that make sense? It would just be a flapper that is a little further back b/c technically the hole that it looked like it was coming out of still is beforethe turbine.
check out pics here You see...I think I am right...the wastegate would work correctly...no not ideal, but no worse off than an internal wastegate
Originally posted by stilov:
but if it were installed in the same plave an internal wastegate flapper was ...it could still be after the turbo. Does that make sense? It would just be a flapper that is a little further back b/c technically the hole that it looked like it was coming out of still is beforethe turbine.
check out pics here
You see...I think I am right...the wastegate would work correctly...no not ideal, but no worse off than an internal wastegate
There is a flaw in your thinking:
In an internal wastegate setup, the flap valve is connected to the diaphram with a connecting rod. The diaphram opens and the connecting rod moves, thus opening the flap valve. The flap valve seperates the "hot" side of the turbo to the downpipe oriface (forge the technical name). When the valve is open, the hot exhaust gasses bypass the turbine wheel, thus controlling boost.
I don't know what is behind that plate, but if it is the flap valve, do you really think that opening the external wastegate would allow the flap valve on the internal gate to open? I don't know, but why not simply use an internally gated design at that point? Not to mention, the downstream side of the wastegate vents to the air filter ... that's right ... it has no tubing and is completely open to under the hood. The more I think about it, the more I am dumbfounded by the design. I will definitely be getting the car in the garage this weekend and begin teardown and will document everything fully.
Also, those with turbo systems, where did you tap for your oil feed to the turbo?
As for the tubing routing, the part that I'm not pleased with is the routing of the IC piping between the IC outlet and the TB. Easily fixable. Like I said, I will shake down the bugs when I go to design the system for the Cougar. The Contour will be running right when I am done ... I glad to know that if I need the help, you guys are here!
And Tom ... STOP RUBBING IT IN! I wanted to buy the Tour when you had it for sale, but didn't have the money until this past July.
I can see what Stilov is saying. IF and only IF that little pipe connected to the external wastegate is actually INSIDE the stock hole in the turbine housing, THEN yes that wastegate setup would work. IF it is flush with the downpipe and not sealed to the hoel, then yes, it's doing nothing.
i.e. you CAN remove the sotck flapper, inserta tube into the wastegate hole in turbine housing and connect an aftermarket external wastegate to it. This MAY be what they did here, but until you reve that plate and see, you don't know.
And if that is the case, it's venting to under the hood, right next to the damn air filter
Hey, he needed to keep his EGR system in order to meet Federal emissions standards man...give him a break!
ya...stazi got what I was thinking...but fastcougar...you're right..why not use an internal then? I will be interested to hear what results you find.
Maybe he had the same issue that ADC did with the internal WG - there's no room for the actuator as it would interfere with the body - hence why they went with an external.
good point...it's still funky
Yea that makes sense if the flapper was taken off. Was this car driven at all previous to you owning it? If so, aporoximately how many miles were on the car/turbo setup and how much boost did he run?
The reason I ask is with a t3/t4 and an ineffecient wastegate design, it must have been producing some pretty strong numbers. I can't help but think this car gives us some strong information on the durability of our 2.5's.
Edit: His post says 9 psi, wouldn't that be comfortably over 300 whp on a stock 2.5?
Not necessarily. With an intercooler probably in the 290's on a 2.5L
I don't have a scanner, but I do have a mustang dyno plot taken 1 day before the car was shipped to me showing a mind blowing 220 hp!!! </sarcasm> I personally think it's BS! As I said before, with the misfire and CEL, the car feels like it is running on 5 semi-boosted cylinders (only 4 psi). This thing is tuned like [censored]! I have no doubt in my mind that reverting the engine to stock will result in a performance boost.
Fact is that I was defrauded with this purchase. What I think happened was that the car never ran quite right and the seller wanted to pawn it off on someone else. I've been down on myself enough about this ... enough is enough. It's a VERY long story, which I will tell one day, but I just don't have it in me right now ... the post would be at least 3 pages long.
Yeah, but its time to start looking at the bright side. It has a turbo. It's a nice looking car. With all gearheads around here and your own effort you can make it a very nice car! So the rocky road can turn into the yellow brick road.
My best is a few fixes and it'll run great. Makes you laugh when you think about someone building a turbo setup without a effing clue. I was like :WTF
when I saw a boost controller on the BOV - it all makes sense now.
Don't worry Trev, we can nut out this fustercluck. Post more detailed pics of th setup and we can say "OK, no reroute this to here and reconnect that to this..." etc.
ya...a lot of it looks pretty mice...a few little mods are there you go...ya maybe the welds arent beautiful...but as long as they don't leak your good.
Thanks guys ... I will definitely fill everyone in once I start to dismantle the car this weekend. I'm sticking with the original plan, which is to remove the kit from the Contour, revert the tour back to stock and sell it. The original plan was to save a few grand on the turbo kit because ADC had just raised their kit price another $500 to $6,000 total. I figured that I could spend slightly over half that if everything went smooth, which it hasn't. As it stands right now, the previous owner has agreed to give me back a portion of the purchase price that we agreed upon since he wouldn't agree to take the car back (long story again and I will tell it some day when I'm closer to my goal with this project). Even with this "refund", I will probably end up spending about the same amount of a brand new ADC system ... if not slightly more. However, I am trying to look on the bright side ... I'm learning a hell of a lot!
This thread has gotten a lot off topic and I never meant to hijack this thread. So, I will take all further issues with my setup to a new thread documenting the teardown of the system that will commence this weekend.
Word, I havent seen your cougar but that is a damn nice looking contour. I guess it's a matter of personal preference. Tuning really is something that you should be able to handle through a good tuner, unless you are leaking in various places that it not something that should be too difficult to fix, ADC most definitely should be able to get you 90% there.
As far as i can tell all it needs is 20min with some new vacum line routing. Once you look over everything and take some time to see how it all works, the routing is actually very straight forward.