As some might know, I've got a Venom VCN-2000 kit installed, and have been having some issues with it. I'm wondering if anyone else has run into this. On the dyno, the A/F goes crazy lean once the nitrous is introduced to the motor. I just sent the Venom control module to Venom to have their guy check it out and recalibrate it. Just wanted to see if anyone else has had anything remotely close to this happening?
Also, with the Linear Mode setting: I was under the assumption that the linear mode would introduce the nitrous at a low nitrous setting, no matter what throttle angle you have it set for? I figured at WOT, the nitrous would come in at the 3500rpm that I have it set to come in at, along with the 80% throttle angle, and would come in at about a 30shot and gradually move up to a 100shot? After talking to Venom, they are saying to set the throttle angle at 20-30%, and the nitrous will gradually come in before WOT and increase as I press the gas pedal. WTF!?!?!? Nitrous going into a motor at anything less than 80%-100% throttle can't be good!! Can anybody enlighten me?
TIA!
Mark
I haven't played with their stuff since it first came out.
Maybe the throttle angle or whatever and nitrous introduction are relative to one another? It does seem a bit weird that the nitrous would be introduced to anything other than under WOT.
You are correct that nitrous should not be heavily used at less than WOT. However, I thought the purpose of these linear systems was to introduce nitrous at lower throttle levels and gradually increase the shot.
But 20% throttle
Not that low. You're gonna be spraying nitrous while you pull in to your driveway.
Exactly! It's almost like they've set these kits up so that you only have the nitrous on when you're flat out ready to use it. Not cruising around town with it on or anything. This was how it was explained to me by "Venom Jose", the guy that calibrates all of the Venom modules. He says that the way I have it setup, at 80% throttle angle, it's pretty much like Drag Mode, where it is the full nitrous shot all at once. Says they usually set them to 20-30% throttle angle and the more gas you give it, the more nitrous it sprays. That blows my mind!!
Mark
i think the reason for these linear kits is to be able to spray at a lower rpm level, not lower throttle level.
Originally posted by 99cougar:
i think the reason for these linear kits is to be able to spray at a lower rpm level, not lower throttle level.
Well the Venom program that you download says obviously not to spray below 2000rpms. I didn't want to spray before my IMRC opens up, to avoid puddling in the butterflies. I figured by 3500rpm I'll be at WOT, so no big issue. My assumption was though, that at WOT, the nitrous would come in at say a ~30shot and increase to say a ~100shot by the time it was at 4500/5000rpms. I didn't think it was linear, according to how much you press the gas pedal. That just doesn't make any sense. Who wants to spray ANY nitrous into their motor at 20% throttle? And who's going to be at 20% throttle at 3500rpm, and slowly pressing the gas pedal? Pretty disappointing!!
Mark
Wow sow it's linear based on the TP not the rpm's. That's [censored] up!
See if you can set it for around 60%. It seems that 20% is just way to low. You will have to refill your bottle every day.
99cougar is right, you are supposed to be able to slowly introduce nitrous at lower RPM levels with a linear kit.
My understanding for the purpose for tthe linear mode is for platforms such as ours where a big hit (say 125hp) shot is just going to break traction. The linear function is suppose to be able to 'slowly' introduc the nitrous, say a 30hp shot and in then in say 3 seconds be at the full 125hp in 3 seconds to allow you to 'gain' traction, etc...
Originally posted by 99cougar:
i think the reason for these linear kits is to be able to spray at a lower rpm level, not lower throttle level.
That's correct, but the way it's linear is just stupid! It should be linear AT WOT!!!! Not at 20%,30%,40% throttle and increases as you press the gas pedal. Think about it, I mat that friggin gas pedal as soon as my IMRC opens! That = NO MORE LINEAR MODE. So I have to feather the gas pedal to spray a little bit if nitrous, and press it further down as I want more to spray. Just stupid!
BigB - I don't have to turn the nitrous on at all times. I generally drive around N/A, and flip the nitrous on as I deem necessary.
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
My understanding for the purpose for tthe linear mode is for platforms such as ours where a big hit (say 125hp) shot is just going to break traction. The linear function is suppose to be able to 'slowly' introduc the nitrous, say a 30hp shot and in then in say 3 seconds be at the full 125hp in 3 seconds to allow you to 'gain' traction, etc...
Originally posted by 99cougar:
i think the reason for these linear kits is to be able to spray at a lower rpm level, not lower throttle level.
Mark
Mark I hope you get things worked out with this unit, you seem to be pioneering a viable performance option for those of us that dont want to go with a turbo kit.
Good luck
I agree. So, if that 'linear' mode is true, then I see really no benefit to their kit and their price tag. JMHO. However, for the deal you got, can't be beat.
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
That's correct, but the way it's linear is just stupid! It should be linear AT WOT!!!! Not at 20%,30%,40% throttle and increases as you press the gas pedal. Think about it, I mat that friggin gas pedal as soon as my IMRC opens! That = NO MORE LINEAR MODE. So I have to feather the gas pedal to spray a little bit if nitrous, and press it further down as I want more to spray. Just stupid!
BigB - I don't have to turn the nitrous on at all times. I generally drive around N/A, and flip the nitrous on as I deem necessary.
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
My understanding for the purpose for tthe linear mode is for platforms such as ours where a big hit (say 125hp) shot is just going to break traction. The linear function is suppose to be able to 'slowly' introduc the nitrous, say a 30hp shot and in then in say 3 seconds be at the full 125hp in 3 seconds to allow you to 'gain' traction, etc...
Originally posted by 99cougar:
i think the reason for these linear kits is to be able to spray at a lower rpm level, not lower throttle level.
Mark
Originally posted by Pudmunkie:
Mark I hope you get things worked out with this unit, you seem to be pioneering a viable performance option for those of us that dont want to go with a turbo kit.
Good luck
Umm Trapps ran this kit years ago. 
You guys ddidn't know that's how the kit works?! It's always been that way. I'm perplexed as to why you would ahve an issue with that. I think it's awesome!
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by Pudmunkie:
Mark I hope you get things worked out with this unit, you seem to be pioneering a viable performance option for those of us that dont want to go with a turbo kit.
Good luck
Umm Trapps ran this kit years ago.
You guys ddidn't know that's how the kit works?! It's always been that way. I'm perplexed as to why you would ahve an issue with that. I think it's awesome!
You're correct, Trapps did run this kit years ago. I appear to be the one having the problem with the kit. As for the linear mode, it isn't awesome, it's plain foolish. Who's going to drag race and just push the pedal down part way so they can have some nitrous enter the motor, then slowly ease into it? Anyone/everyone I know that races, hammers the gas pedal down way to fast for this linear mode to be effective. Also, my main concern is nitrous entering the motor at 20 Friggin percent throttle!!!! Do you not think that it's going to puddle up at 20% throttle??
Mark
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Also, my main concern is nitrous entering the motor at 20 Friggin percent throttle!!!! Do you not think that it's going to puddle up at 20% throttle??
Mark
From the website...
Optimal Air / Fuel Ratio @ any Bottle Pressure
The VCN-2000 is the safest choice by far. When nitrous is introduced , additional fuel is required to ensure the proper air/ fuel mixture is obtained. Without the additional fuel the mixture would become lean causing detonation of motor. Our system utilizes the existing injectors to enrich the air/fuel mixture when nitrous is added. our systems adds an injection pulse width after the computer has finished its pulse. the pulse added is the product of how much nitrous is introduced. this is calculated by the VCN-2000 module.
Module reduces the risk of engine damage
Our Control module reduces the risk of engine damage where other systems fall short. Our VCN-2000 will only introduce nitrous once it has determined the vehicles oxygen sensor is operating properly. The module determines the amount of fuel for the amount of nitrous introduced and will dynamically modify the fuel MAP based on the oxygen sensor input. The VCN-2000 uses the existing injectors for fuel enrichment.
Linear: Of, relating to, or resembling a line; straight
Going by the 'rules' of the giggle gas in which it should only be used @ wot and typically +3500, one would postulate that the linear mode would work with the introduction of nitrous say starting at 20% while throttle is at 100%. Why would one introduce a percentage of the sauce at 50% throttle?
And from what I recall, the way I understand things when Trapps first got the kit, that the way I described it is the way the linear function worked.
Originally posted by todras:
You guys ddidn't know that's how the kit works?! It's always been that way. I'm perplexed as to why you would ahve an issue with that. I think it's awesome!
What does that have to do with the price your mom charges for a lap dance?
Doesn't really say anything about the linear mod we are discussing! :-P
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Also, my main concern is nitrous entering the motor at 20 Friggin percent throttle!!!! Do you not think that it's going to puddle up at 20% throttle??
Mark
From the website...
Optimal Air / Fuel Ratio @ any Bottle Pressure
The VCN-2000 is the safest choice by far. When nitrous is introduced , additional fuel is required to ensure the proper air/ fuel mixture is obtained. Without the additional fuel the mixture would become lean causing detonation of motor. Our system utilizes the existing injectors to enrich the air/fuel mixture when nitrous is added. our systems adds an injection pulse width after the computer has finished its pulse. the pulse added is the product of how much nitrous is introduced. this is calculated by the VCN-2000 module.
Module reduces the risk of engine damage
Our Control module reduces the risk of engine damage where other systems fall short. Our VCN-2000 will only introduce nitrous once it has determined the vehicles oxygen sensor is operating properly. The module determines the amount of fuel for the amount of nitrous introduced and will dynamically modify the fuel MAP based on the oxygen sensor input. The VCN-2000 uses the existing injectors for fuel enrichment.
Drag Mode In this mode the nitrous operates in the same mode as current nitrous systems operate. The amount you program is delivered to the engine when the control mode has sensed wide open throttle.
Linear Mode In this mode the user programs at what throttle angle should be the starting point for the introduction of nitrous. The control module then adds a proportionate amount of nitrous in relation to throttle angle. The higher the throttle angle the greater the nitrous flow, up to a maximum amount programmed by you. This is expected to be the most popular mode of operation.
Timed Mode In this mode the user programs at what throttle angle the nitrous should be introduced and how much nitrous should be added (in terms of %). The user also enters an injection time (how long to inject the nitrous for). This is ideal for turbo-charged engines. The nitrous can be energized while the turbo reaches optimized boost levels then is deactivated after a certain amount of time.
_______________________
So don't run Linear. Sounds like you'd prefer one of the the other modes.
....interesting....
I'll stick with NOS :-)
Doesn't matter either way I guess. Linear mode with 80%+ throttle angle is pretty much like drag mode anyway. The problem is, the kit isn't doing what it says it should. It says it will shut down if it detects a lean code. I'd sure as hell think 18:1+ A/F would be detected as lean. When turning the Venom module on, it cycles through and checks the O2 sensors(CHECKING O2). Once it detects that they are functioning properly, the display shows everything from Injector pulse width, to RPM, to exhaust(RICH/LEAN), to throttle(%), to mode(L-Linear,D-Drag,T-Timed). Everything appears to be working fine, but it still goes lean. I've got PLEANTY of injector(39#) with a 255lph FSVT fuel pump. The car is tuned for the 39# injectors also, yet the Venom module doesn't detect to add more fuel. I'm stumped!!
Mark
Very true. It should have shut down. It's tauted as the safest system! I guess not.
Originally posted by todras:
Very true. It should have shut down. It's tauted as the safest system! I guess not.
Try telling that to Venom. I keep getting told "maybe you have lazy O2 sensors" and "you need the sniffer in the O2 bung, not at the tailpipe." I pretty much told him that the chances of the tailpipe being off 6-15 points off from the O2 is about .0005%, and that I'm ruling that out! If I have a lazy O2, then the system shouldn't tell me that it's fine.
Mark
Mark,
Something to think about when wondering why you'd want the nitrous relative to throttle angle. In real world application when you're racing a high horsepower car, you're fighting for traction and feathering the throttle throughout the run to get said traction. Think of this mode as emulating adding more horsepower through a bigger motor in lieu of an add on. You still need to modulated the throttle to get the best traction.
If you had this programmed to come on at WOT and linear in relation to RPMs from 4000-7000 RPMS as soon as you hit that range in 1st gear you'd be up in smoke and then have to back off and try again, and it would be the same way until you hit 3rd gear where you wouldn't be overpowering the tires. To me it makes much more sense to go with throttle angle for real world application of horsepower. Remember, there are cars out there that can break the tires loose in 2-3 gears at WOT without nitrous all ready added.
Rick
As far as the lazy O2 sensor, I agree it sounds like something is off in their programming/unit. However, have you actually stuck a wideband in the rear 02 bung to check it out or swapped around your sensors? If you haven't replaced the sensor that the system is using to read the A/F ratio, then do that once just to prove they're wrong and then you can rail on them all you like. It sucks that you've got to spend some $ to get them to listen to you, but if they happen to be right, it puts you at being dead wrong.
Rick
How does the venom detect the lean-ness of the motor? I'm assuming by upstream 02s? It's not for some reason looking at the down stream is it?
Yes, it should be using the front upper O2 sensor as far as I'm aware.
Rick
Yes, they read off of the upstream O2 sensors. Talking to the guy at Venom, he says that once the O2 sensor is at .5v, it begins to add more fuel. He's pretty confident that the O2 sensors can detect this before the nitrous even goes completely through the motor.
Mark
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Yes, they read off of the upstream O2 sensors. Talking to the guy at Venom, he says that once the O2 sensor is at .5v, it begins to add more fuel. He's pretty confident that the O2 sensors can detect this before the nitrous even goes completely through the motor.
Why does it wait until the engine is at roughly stoich to start adding fuel? It should add it long before that.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Yes, they read off of the upstream O2 sensors. Talking to the guy at Venom, he says that once the O2 sensor is at .5v, it begins to add more fuel. He's pretty confident that the O2 sensors can detect this before the nitrous even goes completely through the motor.
Why does it wait until the engine is at roughly stoich to start adding fuel? It should add it long before that.
You're EXACTLY right. This is my biggest beef about the kit! Talking to this guy on the phone makes me really nervous about having sent him this computer module. Then again, I figure he can't make it any worse than it already is. I wonder how many people are having this same issue with their Venom kits and don't even know about it, or how long their motors will last. I just want to get the kit working right so I can use the dang thing! 
Mark
This is why the NX maximizer is worth the buck , individual settings for each gear and better safety when shooting at the strip.
Really? Any links to this? Cost?
Mark
The NX Maximizer is basiclly the same thing as the Venom controller, just a different approach and minus the a/f monitoring, and it cost about $500. (There are cheaper options at Summit)
If you're going to buy another controller, might as well sell the Venom kit and buy a basic n20 kit.
You'll end up with money in your pocket.
Ahh gotcha.. I kind of wanted to take a look at it, and it's functions.. I really wish someone could make a linear kit, where it was dependent on RPM, and not throttle angle.. If I could get this kit to spray a ~30shot at 3500rpm and increase to a ~100shot by 5000rpm without having to feather the gas pedal, I'd be set!! I'm considering selling this kit for a ZEX wet kit!!
Mark
I am having great results from my Zex kit (dry).
Heres a
Jacobs Controller that is fairly cheap and has an rpm dependant control.
Summit has the NX Maximizer too.
Yeah as sleeperZ said sell the venomkit , get highclass solenoids then add a controller. (i'd vote for the maximizer cause it has the ramp feature) You'll prolly get more power and safety for less money then the venomkit, you'll loose the bling part tho , the venom systems are just sexy
www.fjoracing.com , info on the maximizer there
Great, I leave on vacation for a week and miss this. Then I come back to the real world and have to start using my memory. More tonight when I've got some work done. Stupid vacation...
I had initial programming gremlins too. After 2 or 3 times back to Venom the system worked flawlessly, every time.
IIRC, after many bottles (90%) in linear mode, I never had a problem, I did tap into the 02 Bung up front. I'll look and see If I have any records of the settings I used. It could be the kit is designed for a stock car and that some parameteres of your modded car don't jive with the VCN controller? Just another SWAG. AS I said, I'll dig and see what I find tonight.
Mark
Thanks Mark! Stazi and I did the installation according to both the instructions, and your detailed installation with pictures. Everything looks pretty much identical under the hood when compared to yours, other than minor details such as where the Venom box was mounted(back side of battery box in my case).
So you had to send your computer module back to Venom 2-3 times? What did they do to it? How did you know it wasn't working correctly, or did you get on a dyno or use a wideband? Hopefully I'll get the module back in a week or so and can find a wideband to borrow. Thanks Mark, let me know whatever else you can find out!
Mark
The computer module was sent back and forth 2 or 3 times. I'm not sure what was done to the unit, but I kept getting a TPS error that would shut the system down.
I think some of my posts in the archives have data settings. IIRC, I was running Linear, coming on at 80% Throttle and ~75HP gain. It was a smooth but fast rush, not a bang like in Drag mode...