Insane boost on pump gas...how?

Exactly as Demon said, PLUS the effect's of charge air temperature, spark timing, shape of the combustion chamber and piston face...this list goes on.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
As for high cfm flow and dynamic compression on pump gas. PROPER TUNING!

Exactly. Jon at HKS(not sure his last name), just hit 300whp on 91 octane(!!) on a totally stock Focus block with stock rods, pistons and compression(9:5:1). Basically he's got a huge turbo and intercooler and cams and a trick intake and exhaust manifold. He used stand alone engine managment and ran a 10.3.1 airfuel ratio. He did say he doesn't think the engine will last long at that power level, but he did run 250whp for two years.

The OEMs typically tune conservatively for maximum durability so when you get the car on a dyno with a good tuner you can get some good gains.

That's really amazing. I'm kinda bummed though. I was hoping that there was some concrete way that I could determine maximum boost. I guess I'll just have to give it a try and watch for deto.

My Zetec buildup is going to use a FRPP head, FRPP intake manifold, FRPP exhaust manifold, Crower Stage 2 turbo cams, 8:1 forged pistons, forged rods, billett main caps, and ARP hardware EVERYWHERE. It will be interesting to see what it will be able to do.

BTW, somebody bought that HKS Focus and put down 450WHP on C14 race gas. Unreal. Check it out.

Thanks everyone.

BP

FRPP exhaust manifold? Are you going turbo or super, cause you won't get high numbers with a SC compared to a turbo.

Ultimately you'll have to go to the Focus forums to get the best Zetec tech for FI. They're doing around 300whp on pump gas on built blocks these days.

You'll also want to get the J&S Safeguard.

Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
I'm kinda bummed though. I was hoping that there was some concrete way that I could determine maximum boost.

You need to get the thinking out of your head that maximum boost equals airflow.

You can easily estimate power from the compressor map, VE, and engine size. That is more then enough to tell you what boost range you are shooting for on "that specific" compressor combonation.

If you can't do that then you definitely want to look into having someone else do the compressor sizing. I am taking for granted someone else is doing the tuning!

Seawulf, I'm going to be using the shorty FRPP header. It is perfectly matched to the FRPP head. Plus it has a beefy bracket betweet the head flange and the cat/turbo flange for better restance against cracking. Yeah, I'm going to be getting a J&S. They seem like pretty kickass units.

DemonSVT, I realize that flow kills boost anyday. I know how to determine the power output from a comp map. That part is easy. What I'd like to know is the maximum boost that I can run on a built Zetec. According to all of the math, anything over a PR of 1.8 will land in deto. From what everyone is saying, you can't determine maximum boost from just the effective CR alone. That is painfully obvious with the Focus guys running 300WHP on pump gas with a 9.6:1 CR.

Yes, I will be doing the tuning. First I will tune it NA, get that down rock solid, then throw the turbo on with low boost and go from there.

BP

Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:

Yes, I will be doing the tuning. First I will tune it NA, get that down rock solid, then throw the turbo on with low boost and go from there.

BP

I was going to do that, but decided it'd be just as "easy" to start out with the oh-so small 3.63psi spring in my wastegate and start from there. Then it's EBC time with some fine tuning and I'll be mostly done

To get your NA tune down simply to go to an FI tune is a waste of energy/time IMO. You'll need to change a lot from the NA tune, especially if you change MAF's, injectors, ect between the two setups.

It looks like you're still forgetting the point, that different boost levels in different turbos will cause verying rates of flow. 5psi on a T3 turbo is not the same as 5psi on a T60 turbo. So asking for a general answer of how much boost your motor will handle, depends on what turbo you'll be running. Unless your question was pertaining to your setup, and how much boost your motor will handle from that particular turbo.

Mark

Yes, I'm sorry I should have worded my question differently. I have a T3 Super 60 turbo. From warmonger's spreadsheet, I can determine how much flow/power that my engine will need/produce. I'm estimating that my engine with a 100% VE will flow about 16.0lbs/min at 6500 rpm. In a perfect situation that would equal about 320HP at a PR of 2.

It will be interesting to see how much power it will actually produce with the turbo cams and the FRPP head/intake.

If I could find a 3psi wastegate spring, that would be perfect. I was planning on getting a dual port actuator. I'm still thinking of building my own boost controller. They are insanely overpriced and I can program my own microcontroller.

BP

The S60 should put you in the 240-280FWHP range at 15-20psi. (engine VE dependant & lower CR seriously drops VE) It can push 30-33lb/min (400-440cfm) at it's threshold of efficiency.

It should spool up fairly early if the CR is not dropped too low and make nice power under the curve as well. It's a well balanced compressor map for smaller displacement engine.

Most people building engines drop the CR too low and lose a large chunk of power throughout the powerband because of it. CR lower then 9 means you should be running huge turbo setups. There just is no reason to drop it that low otherwise. Well unless you are running non-intercooled I suppose but that still can be worked around.
Stazi is running non-intercooled on a 10.3 to 1 engine. He later added water injection and is putting down very nice numbers.
The ADC kit (T28) was designed on a 10.3 SVT and ran as high as 13-14psi. (intercooled)
Tom ran a T3/4-60 trim .86 A/R at 10-11 psi on a 10.3-10.4 CR 3L (with intercooler)

The Super 60 is similar to what TurboTom was using in his kit and he said he wouldn't push more than 8-9 psi on pump gas. This would get you around 230whp on stock everything. Personally I think the Super 60(in stock trim) is too small to push serious power. Even then it's still a bit laggy. To push serious power you'll need a slightly bigger turbo that will be seriously laggy.

http://info.webnet-x.com/jon_dyno.jpg

This is a graph of Jon's at HKS's Turbo'd Focus. The turbo is a HKS GT3037S at 15psi and 10.3 to 1 AF ratio. Checking HKS website that turbo runs for over $2k. Notice the TQ at 3000rpms. I've got 60lb/ft more at that rpms but while mine hit's max power around 4500rpms, his just keeps on going.

Personally, I'd prefer a setup with a small turbo with a dual stage boost controller that would run 14-15psi at initial spool up and then going down to 10 psi around 4500rpms. That way while the max power would stil be around 200whp, the TQ would be around 250 and spool up would be instant. It'd feel better on the street that way.

I kinda screwed myself. I bought the turbo about three months ago. I found an amazing deal about three weeks ago on a brand new Zetec and MTX75 for $500. The T3-S60 was only meant for a budget turbo project on my stock Zetec. I also got a great deal on a set of 42lb FRPP injectors. Now my dilemma is wether to even try and use the T3-S60 and the 42lb injectors, or just to sell them and save up for something bigger.

I never knew that the SVTs ran such incredibly high compression. After reading that, I think that the most I will drop my CR down to is 9:1. It all depends upon who makes what CR forged pistons.

If I do ditch the T3-S60, I'll probably go with a GT3071R. Check out the map...

The plot lines are (left to right) 2000, 2500, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000, 6500rpms. With a PR of 1.5 I'm spooled by 2k, with a PR of 2 I'm spooled by 2500. Not too bad. The only thing that I don't like is that peak efficiency isn't reached until the 5500rpm region. That and the way the surge line swings in above a PR of 2.7. I can see why the HKS guy doesn't reach peak TQ until 4500. There is still a whole lot of room to grow with this turbo vs. the T3-S60.

BTW, I checked out that HKS GT3037S and it looks horribly overpriced. The GT3071R's specs are identical except for the compressor wheel being 71mm instead of 76mm. They both use a T04 comp housing.

BP

Originally posted by ButtonPuncher:
If I do ditch the T3-S60, I'll probably go with a GT3071R. Check out the map

You are reading those lines completely wrong. You can't just follow one line up. The turbo does not start out making it's maximum boost. Boost (compressor speed) is exhaust energy dependant and the little 2L is not going to spool up that huge compressor very fast.

I mean seriously. The GT30 is freaking HUGE for a 2L engine. Sure you'll make boat loads of power on the top end if you can spin those rpm and stay together but it will lag like a biotch! I would not expect it to spool until past 4500rpm. You will be surging at low rpms too. That's not good for the compressor. Power under the curve will suck!

If you look at that map you can tell that turbo is designed to run in the 20-30psi range. ~1 bar/15psi is the bottom of it's efficiency range.

Like I said. You need someone to size the turbo for you because you are not getting the whole picture. The S60 is a good choice for overall power. Stick with it.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Boost (compressor speed) is exhaust energy dependant and the little 2L is not going to spool up that huge compressor very fast.

I know, I know, I know. I shouldn't have said spooled. I should have said, starts building boost. It's been a long day.

To tell you the truth, I'm have doubts about this whole buildup. I may just stick with my S60 budget buildup.

I've started crunching the numbers and I'm not sure if I wanna drop this much cash. I really don't want to buy a new turbo, injectors, and intercooler.

All that I need to get my budget system up and running is a Mustang MAF and the SCT software.

BP

With bumped up fuel pressure, 42s have done 300whp on a zetec with a return fuel system. Personally I wouldn't try to push that much with a S60, but 250-260whp should be doable. Just make sure to run rich under boost, no leaner than 11.5:1. Make sure the safeguard is on. Don't push much past 13-14psi and it should be good. Probably get an new cam for the intake side and a new manifold like you're gonna.

Yeah, you're not gonna see huge power without a huge turbo(huge in cost also), but the turbo you got with proper tuning should leave you satisfied. 250whp would be almost 300 crank HP and that would be pretty cool also.

I though about it and I think I'm going to boost my current '96 GL. Run that on low boost because of the age of my motor and ATX. Save up for everything else and then start the big-boost Zetec project.

I'd like to have the budget boost Zetec done by fall. The big-boost Zetec will probably happen a year or so after that.

BTW, I forgot to mention earlier, the T3-S60 will be intercooled.

BP