What is the diffrence in power?

Well, very similar I think mod for mod. Our only car with hotter cams is David Zs - has 3L valves, SVE cams, headers and makes 240 FWHP. Check the SHO -shop stage 4 3.0L package dynos. They add bigger valves, big butterflys, manifold porting, hot cams, and a bunch of other things and makes about 238 FWHP. The SHO-Shop 3L has stock SVT cams and made 229 FWHP , simlilar to their stage 3 SHO 3.0L.

A guess would be around 20 or so HP. Most of the advantage the SVT would have is the cams and breathing. Guessing around 215-220 or so for the SE and 230 or so for the most basic of swaps with little or no other mods. Not sure until one of the few 3 liter SEs dynoes...

Forget my answer, I read the Q wrong - thought you wanted to compare 3L SVT & 3L SHO. I agree with Brad, the SVT cams & Extrude Honing probably account for 15-18 of the 30 extra SVT horses on the 2.5L. So, multiply that by 6/5 for the 3L = about 20 HP.

What has me a little cautious/pessimistic is that the regular 3L only makes 200 HP. The swap with SE heads will give higher compression ratio to the tune of 10 to 15 HP above value with 3L heads, but you have to subtract to account for the fact that the 3L heads should breathe better plus the fact that the 3L exhaust manifold has no precats. It seems to me that one really shouldn't be expecting to get more than 200 to 205 HP at the crank for a 3L block with SE heads - similar HP to stock 2.5L SVT, but 35 to 40 ft-lbs more torque. Doing headers and exhaust at same time might net 220 HP at crank.

I'm willing to buy the argument that the better breathing and hotter cams of the SVT heads are good for 20 HP - that would place a 3L/SVT heads in the 220 HP range which is consistent with the 185 to 190 FWHP that was reported by Roger before any other exhaust or intake mods were done.

In my mind the interesting question for non-SVT owners and who don't want to change pistons is whether to use the 3L heads (better breathing but lower compression) or the SE heads (trade breathing for compression).

But as Brad points out, too few data points so only speculation for now.

Eric

Brad, Hint hint.... KC Dyno hint hint... 51.7X for two runs hint hint

Got to get you to KC someday

Merlin, what are you talking about? A dyno in K.C.? Whatever for? :rolleyes: I'm saving for more mods, dyno time right now is a waste of my money and time. Since I have the 70mm TB and stock exhaust with all cats gutted (shouldn't gut the main one, expansion chamber to far back), which I believe are both hurting my overall performance, I would dyno lower than a base swap 3 liter in an SE. Those mods will pick back up when my dual exhaust is fitted when I have time. Until then, it's up to Micah unless someone else gets an SE or Cougar done before then.

SHOShop has different stage packages for the 3.0L now? Anyone got a link with prices?

Thanks!

****, SHO-Shop's website is a joke! Doesn't anyone understand that a website can be their best salesman? Vadim really needs to reasses his website thinking. They offer MULTIPLE parts that aren't even remotely mentioned on their site. DUMB DUMB DUMB!

Yes sho shop is a very small business, doesn't upgrade their website, and doesn't have particularly good customer service. I myself have talked to Vadim on several occasions and he certainly seemed to be very knowledgable about our cars. He has no problem just talking about our cars, and sharing alot of information.

I spoke with him very recently about everything that he offeres for the 3.0 upgrade. Right now there are not really "stages". He has been looking into doing a big valve job on the svt heads, but is worried about the valves "burning out". Now I don't know much in-depth information about the specifics of heads, but basically what he was trying to explain was that with the vavles in there wasn't much room left within the head, and that it MIGHT not be reliable. One again he wasn't positive.

Now one thing that I am wondering is whether or not headwork is really worth it on the svt. David z has big valves, P&P heads, and more aggresive cams, yet he only dynoed at around 5 - 12 Hp more than vadim (sho shop). vadim had no headwork done except for some port matching.

So, I found the best way to get a hold of vadim is too call in and leave a mesage, or fax them your question with your phone number on it. Whenver I faxed him I got a response that day.

Hope this helped

James

If you call SHO Shop, be sure NOT to talk to that chowderhead Ray that usually answers the phones. Not only doesn't he know the answer to your question, but he'll try to answer it only to be totally wrong. Just ask for Vadim and go straight to the horses mouth.

But the Sho Shop car also had larger ported intake runners and bored TB that were both larger than David's, not to mention a dyno at their disposal to tune repeatedly on. In their write ups in MM&FF, Sho Shops had also done EH port matching on the intake side of the SVT heads to match the larger runner ports. I think that for David to out dyno Sho Shops proves a lot about cams and head work. Some offsetting mods in favor of David Z.

Also, the heads that David has have a steel insert under the valve. I talked to Chris R. about them (whom David got the heads/cams from) about getting a set copied since David had already purchsed them. $$$1500$$$ just for the inserts is the first quote I got from a recommended shop. The steel inserts are needed to keep the aluminum head material from cracking between the larger 3 liter valves once the material is removed to install the larger valves in the smaller chambered head.

Did David Z use the stock 60mm throttle body? If so, that is someone who should try the 65mm,

Instead of using 3L valves since the steel inserts are an expensive PITA, how about custom big valves with stock size/mnarrow stems? Too expensive?

It's not the stems that are larger, it's the valve face. The larger valve face is what creates the problem, custom or not. The distance between the seats is where the steel inserts would need to go...

David Z not only doesn't have the bigger TB, but also doesn't have the ported upper intake. He does however, has the larger lower intake manifold.

Even if David got both the TB, and larger upper intake, and got time to tune his car, I don't think that his horsepower level would raise above 300.

Maybe the heads on our cars are already pretty well designed? It seems that getting headwork which could exceed $3000 is not really worth 20 odd horsepower, but I must admit having a 100 hp/ltr engine would be badass!

James

David is using a 3 liter lower intake modified to work with the 2.5 upper. The 3 liter lower measures at 34/35mm primary/secondary. The ones Sho Shops has is even larger at 37/35mm primary/secondary. The larger manifolds combined to 15HP gain over SVT intakes on the 3 liter according to Sho Shops.

I can get the Contour heads ported and polished for just around $650. this is a very high quality job and he is the guy that ports all my SHO heads. This includes a valve job too. I will know something about my after market cams very soon. The grinder is almost done with the measurements.

OK ALL THIS TALK ABOUT THE 30.L SWAP BEING A HUGE UNDERTAKING IS B.S.. I HAVE DONE MANY A SWAP AND THIS WAS AS STRAIGHT FOWARD AS THEY COME....AND WORTH IT..LET ME TELL YA, TO FEEL A TOUR PUT YOU IN YOUR SEAT IS A AMAZING EXP. QUESTION LET ME KNOW.? AND FOR THE SHO-SHOP, THEIR A GOOD REPUTABLE COMPANY.

All this talk is making me go back to school....

WHO EVER SAID IT WAS A HUGE UNDERTAKING? NOBODY. TAKING A MOTOR IN AND OUT OF A CONTOUR IS THE HUGE UNDERTAKING COMPARED TO MOST OTHER CARS, PERHAPS THAT"S WHAT YOU READ. PLEASE TAKE YOUR CAPS LOCK OFF NEXT TIME... IT HURTS MY EARS FROM ALL OF THE YELLING...

Now, let's start over... who are you and what car do you own with what mods? Sounds as if you've done a 3 liter swap... pretty straight forward, but not quite as easy as swapping out small blocks or going from 302 to 351 Fords... but still quite easy, you're right. Getting to know someone on the net is hard, we need pictures, dyno charts, the works... if you have them.