Ok guys, we are trying to finish this motor up and there are a few things here and there that I could use help with. The engine is currently making 425hp and we are looking to make 600whp+. With that in mind, I was wondering who has the most powerful street 3.0 Duratec and what mods? I think they will help us see what the limits are with certain parts on the engine. So far, we have a custom head gasket from SCE, forged pistons, 2 GT30 turbos, SX fuel pump, RC 750cc injectors, ported 3L heads to match 2.5 split port LIM, ST modeo UIM. My next step is to see if the 2.5 fuel rail will provide the sufficient flow needed to support our hp goals. Any help will be apprerciated. Thanks!
I think there was a drag car making over 1000hp. Don't quote me on that tho...
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
I think there was a drag car making over 1000hp. Don't quote me on that tho...
I think its somewhere in the where abouts of like 1500 hp these days.
I do know that a Noble is making 488 whp.
What car is your 3.0L duratec in?
This is for a Noble. The Nobles make about 360whp from the factory. We dont need to make a 1500hp motor since this is for the street/race. Basically, we need to find the limitations of this motor. At how much power will the fuel rail suffer, crank, etc?
He would be the guy I would like to contact but that link to
www.cruzracing.com is a dead link. It just goes to some random search result page.
I know the stock crank is good for 1200 hp. Thats when Cruz finally bent his. Stock rods have been shown to be good up to 350+ whp. Nobody has broken one yet on a FI application. As for the limitations of the fuel rail, nobody has maxxed that out either.
I'll say this. The Escape rods can handle 400+whp, with a fair amount of certainty!
Great info guys. Remember, the car is already making 425hp. Since then, we have upgraded the turbos, dropped compression even more, larger injectors, etc. The car made 365whp with 1 bar of boost. Im looking to crank that up to about 20psi. Knowing the stock crank can handle 1200hp is very reassuring. Now, we will see the limits of the rods. Do you guys know who makes aftermarket rods for the 3.0?
Just as a side question... You seem to work on very high dollar cars, I mean... why not just spell your name Smoothlines autosalon. Whast with the Z instead of an S?
Originally posted by Ray:
I'll say this. The Escape rods can handle 400+whp, with a fair amount of certainty!
Is that a hint hint(you turned the boost up)? 
So.. How about them MAVS??!?!?!!?
This is Gabe's car we are talking about correct?
we, who? me? nuh uh.. I, specifically, was referring to mine.. but the general conversation was around Cruz's strip build, I thought??
No. Smoothlinez is building Gabe's Noble.
D'oh... I'm back on track, now!
Pauter makes aftermarket rods.
www.pauter.com
the kicker is everyone bought these fancy rods...and those who bought forged pistons from Diamond...well we now know they are only to good to about 20psi...kinda makes the rods overkill for them.
Originally posted by stilov:
the kicker is everyone bought these fancy rods...and those who bought forged pistons from Diamond...well we now know they are only to good to about 20psi...kinda makes the rods overkill for them.
Who tested the pistons to 20psi?
And on another subject...Raaaayyy....is there something you are hiding from us? 
Actually Taylor I was mistaken. Diamond pistons handled 23psi. The problem was that the head lifted, coolant hit the top of the hot piston and 'bam'. Broken piston.
It's great Ray that you were finally able to get your 3.0 to match the output of the 2.5.
Originally posted by Keyser:
Actually Taylor I was mistaken. Diamond pistons handled 23psi. The problem was that the head lifted, coolant hit the top of the hot piston and 'bam'. Broken piston.
It's great Ray that you were finally able to get your 3.0 to match the output of the 2.5.
So when this happened...i imagine the car didn't get a full run in? What type of car was this...a cougar/contour? And why did the head lift? Were ARP head studs on the car or the stock bolts?
Yup.. it is great... that I matched it, or more* at only 14.5-15psi.
Originally posted by Ray:
Yup.. it is great... that I matched it, or more* at only 14.5-15psi.
Ok enough waiting!!! Where is the dyno sheet?
Originally posted by Pudmunkie:
Just as a side question... You seem to work on very high dollar cars, I mean... why not just spell your name Smoothlines autosalon. Whast with the Z instead of an S?
Unfortunately I have no control over that as I am not the owner...
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
Originally posted by Pudmunkie:
Just as a side question... You seem to work on very high dollar cars, I mean... why not just spell your name Smoothlines autosalon. Whast with the Z instead of an S?
Unfortunately I have no control over that as I am not the owner...
At least you agree? 
Atleast....no comment. haha. We service a lot of different cars here and those who have been here probably dont think about the name because they know the kind of work we do. Things will be done right...the first time. I think this project will show the potential of the Duratec motor in street trim. If we can muster out 700 reliable hp, then it would be great. The good thing is that the same motor, different internals of course, are used in your car so a lot of the technology can be shared.
Smoothlinez, this is a little off your topic, but do you have a contact at AER I could use to expedite an engine purchase? Iâ??d like to purchase the same 3.0 L long block they sell to Noble owners (piston squirters and turbo cams) for my turbo SVT contour.
I have a phone number for AER at which I left numerous messages earlier this year without result. Iâ??ve been meaning to get aggressive about this and start posting on the Noble boards â??? but maybe you know someone helpful at AER and familiar with the Noble engines that could point me in the right direction.
An AER long block is the last long-lead-time item I need for my car.
Incidentally, Keith at ADC (I bought his â??lastâ? T3/T4 kit) conservatively estimates that I should see about 430 FWHP with this combination. Too much is just enough.
I'm planning to ship the car to him for final tuning when I have it all assembled. I'm willing to push it hard on the dyno with an AER block (bragging rights).
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Smoothlinez, this is a little off your topic, but do you have a contact at AER I could use to expedite an engine purchase? Iâ??d like to purchase the same 3.0 L long block they sell to Noble owners (piston squirters and turbo cams) for my turbo SVT contour.
I have a phone number for AER at which I left numerous messages earlier this year without result. Iâ??ve been meaning to get aggressive about this and start posting on the Noble boards â??? but maybe you know someone helpful at AER and familiar with the Noble engines that could point me in the right direction.
An AER long block is the last long-lead-time item I need for my car.
Incidentally, Keith at ADC (I bought his â??lastâ? T3/T4 kit) conservatively estimates that I should see about 430 FWHP with this combination. Too much is just enough. I'm planning to ship the car to him for final tuning when I have it all assembled. I'm willing to push it hard on the dyno with an AER block (bragging rights).
<hijack>
Mine's for sale AND I can deliver it SAME DAY! 
Hell, I will even sell it to you shortblock form (still needs to be built up to longblock but I have EVERYTHING) and you can enjoy building up your own motor.
FS: 3.0L "Race" (Forged) Longblock
</hijack>
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Mine's for sale AND I can deliver it SAME DAY!
Hell, I will even sell it to you shortblock form (still needs to be built up to longblock but I have EVERYTHING) and you can enjoy building up your own motor.
FS: 3.0L "Race" (Forged) Longblock
</hijack>
Thanks, but I am not even close to giving up on AER. At $4500 (if I can find a salesman), their Noble 3Ls are a great bargain and proven to reliably make the power I'm expecting.
Unfortunately, AER will NOT sell the engine to people without Nobles. Even when we bought the engines, we had to give them the VIN or chassis number on the original engine and Noble frame. They then call 1G Racing for comfirmation. Then, and only then will they sell you the engine. I tried to order some cams from them also but they wouldnt sell it to us.
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
Unfortunately, AER will NOT sell the engine to people without Nobles.
Oh Crap...
Why are they only selling the engines to Noble owners? It would make sense to sell them openly to the public and produce more revenue in the process
At least in my mind that makes sense. . .
Just PM me when you're ready to buy. I've already bought 3 from them.
Oh yeah, price dropped to $4200.
Originally posted by gotapex:
Just PM me when you're ready to buy. I've already bought 3 from them.
Oh yeah, price dropped to $4200.
LOL...badazz~
Originally posted by gotapex:
Just PM me when you're ready to buy. I've already bought 3 from them.
Oh yeah, price dropped to $4200.
Please don't say things like that, I really have no self control when it comes to spending money 
.
Aaron
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
Unfortunately, AER will NOT sell the engine to people without Nobles. Even when we bought the engines, we had to give them the VIN or chassis number on the original engine and Noble frame. They then call 1G Racing for comfirmation. Then, and only then will they sell you the engine. I tried to order some cams from them also but they wouldnt sell it to us.
Yeah right... How many engines have you bought from them? They've obviously changed their policy.
I called the contact number that gotapex gave me (David Walker's cell phone # that I will not post publicly) and he gave me the order line number (800 753 5237) at which I was able to immediately place my order. The part number is â??L30Nobleâ? and it is a complete engine ready to drop in.
Dave Walker said that they don't care at all what the application is, Noble or some other car. All they need is a credit card #.
Anyway, the cost to me was $4300 for the engine and an additional $100 shipping. Dave called me back after I placed the order to give me my shipping date, Thursday, 22 June, so I should have my AER engine within two weeks
Man it helps to have the right contacts, I was getting nowhere with this. Thank you so much gotapex! 
Next I need to order a brake kit (front and rear) from Todd at TCE...
yes, congratz. I am sorry if I gave you the wrong information as that is what AER told me when we needed a replacement engine for one of our Noble customers. The engine is complete ready to go,but youll need the manifold, etc. from 1G. GL with your project
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
The engine is complete ready to go,but youll need the manifold, etc. from 1G. GL with your project
Comes with manifold... Or so Dave Walker said.
Wow, things really have changed a LOT. We had an AER built Noble engine sent to us last month and it came with new exhaust manifold bolts, etc but no manifold. The manifold and custom bracket/mounts, modified PS pump were from 1G. I am sure its a custom manifold and AER just does the oem type of stuff. Let us know when you get your engine. That will open many doors and opportunities for you contour guys.
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
Wow, things really have changed a LOT. We had an AER built Noble engine sent to us last month and it came with new exhaust manifold bolts, etc but no manifold. The manifold and custom bracket/mounts, modified PS pump were from 1G. I am sure its a custom manifold and AER just does the oem type of stuff. Let us know when you get your engine. That will open many doors and opportunities for you contour guys.
I'll post a lot of pictures of the engine when it arrives. I think this is something many CEGers will be interested in - especially when you consider what it would take to duplicate this engine.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Originally posted by smoothlinez:
The engine is complete ready to go,but youll need the manifold, etc. from 1G. GL with your project
Comes with manifold... Or so Dave Walker said.
Mine did not. My manifolds came from Snakebite Performance. Perhaps they now come with the standard Escape ones.
Originally posted by gotapex:
Mine did not. My manifolds came from Snakebite Performance. Perhaps they now come with the standard Escape ones.
Or I simply misunderstood him.
Jesus - $4300 just for a longblock!?!?
I'd rather buy a fully built 350 for that money!
Originally posted by Stazi:
Jesus - $4300 just for a longblock!?!?
I'd rather buy a fully built 350 for that money!
Won't fit
True, but dropping $4300 on a Duratech motor is insane IMO. I don't see the need for a motor that "beefy" in a Contour. You aren't going to run 600hp in a Contour, nor would you want to.
Originally posted by Stazi:
True, but dropping $4300 on a Duratech motor is insane IMO. I don't see the need for a motor that "beefy" in a Contour. You aren't going to run 600hp in a Contour, nor would you want to.
I do respect your opinion on this. However, in my case itâ??s a hobby car and cost is not the biggest issue. By the time Iâ??m done Iâ??ll have spent near $30K on this seven year old four door carâ??? and where the hell is the sense in that? It only makes sense from the perspective of entertainment. I could have spent it on a classic Mustang or such â??? but Iâ??ve already done that too many times. I think my next hobby car (a few years down the road) may be a GT40 kit car or maybe a Noble.
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that itâ??s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
Iâ??ll post a bunch of pictures of it sometime next week and a detailed list of all the improvements and new parts AER used.
Time is honestly the most difficult thing for me to find. With this new crate engine, specifically designed for turbo charging, I have good confidence I wonâ??t be dealing with internal problems or machining errors and such. I only want to install it one time. I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Will I actually push the engine that hard? Not on the street (thatâ??s for damn sure!). I can see getting involved in autocross and such down the line though.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Originally posted by Stazi:
True, but dropping $4300 on a Duratech motor is insane IMO. I don't see the need for a motor that "beefy" in a Contour. You aren't going to run 600hp in a Contour, nor would you want to.
I do respect your opinion on this. However, in my case itâ??s a hobby car and cost is not the biggest issue. By the time Iâ??m done Iâ??ll have spent near $30K on this seven year old four door carâ??? and where the hell is the sense in that? It only makes sense from the perspective of entertainment. I could have spent it on a classic Mustang or such â??? but Iâ??ve already done that too many times. I think my next hobby car (a few years down the road) may be a GT40 kit car or maybe a Noble.
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that itâ??s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
Iâ??ll post a bunch of pictures of it sometime next week and a detailed list of all the improvements and new parts AER used.
Time is honestly the most difficult thing for me to find. With this new crate engine, specifically designed for turbo charging, I have good confidence I wonâ??t be dealing with internal problems or machining errors and such. I only want to install it one time. I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Will I actually push the engine that hard? Not on the street (thatâ??s for damn sure!). I can see getting involved in autocross and such down the line though.
Good luck with your csvt project. It will be a gorgous car after your done with it.
Quick question. Are u doing anything to the outside for exterior mods. Or is it going to be a sleeper.?
Originally posted by Rickson:
Quick question. Are u doing anything to the outside for exterior mods. Or is it going to be a sleeper.?
As close to stock looking as I can keep it. Lowered with six spoke FSVT wheels and Wilwood brake kit. I have another near identical car, "nice twin," that I am keeping completely stock. It'll be fun to take the pair to car shows and park them side by side with raised hoods.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that itâ??s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
I CAN. I could do it for half that price for myself.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Actually, I can make a stock block duratec engine do this....
I'd buy THAT for a dollar!
Wait... I DID buy that!
And, yes.. it WILL produce 400+ FWHP reliably...
Congrats on your purchase Jim!!
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that itâ??s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
I CAN. I could do it for half that price for myself.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Actually, I can make a stock block duratec engine do this....
OK. Suffice to say that the least troublesome way for me to assure myself of a quality long block, well suited for turbo charging was to write a check to AER.
Warmonger, youâ??re not saying you could assemble an equivalent Noble long block for half the price that AER does? Are you? $2150?
I know trading time for money really works when applied to engine machining and assembly. Iâ??ve built my share of inexpensive PAW small block ford kits to know that, not to mention a 390 FE and a regrettably high dollar 428 FE rebuild.
So maybe you could source the parts for less than $2150 and use your time and experience and well-equipped shop to put it together. Can you do the machining for piston squirters as well?
My engine rebuilding days are over. I never really much enjoyed that aspect of the car hobby. With the power available from forced induction and electronic tuning, I have no incentive to do the kinds of things I used to do with 60â??s iron anyway.
Tom, sorry, but you'd be hard pressed to hit $2500 for a forged internal shortblock doing all the work yourself except for piston boring and balancing. Not to mention that is including a used shortblock to start with. $4300 is an exceptional deal for a mostly complete longblock.
Rick
Originally posted by warmonger:
Actually, I can make a stock block duratec engine do this....
Ray...Tom...come out with it! I wanna see the numbers
so the aer 3l is set up for forced induction? it cant be run NA? likely has low compression for FI. is there anything really special that they do to the engine? its a complete forged internal 3l longblock? you still have to pay for a built mtx75 to mate to the 3l right? sorry, i'm not sure what noble does for a tranny if they use the mtx75 too.
Originally posted by hmouta:
so the aer 3l is set up for forced induction? it cant be run NA? likely has low compression for FI. is there anything really special that they do to the engine? its a complete forged internal 3l longblock? you still have to pay for a built mtx75 to mate to the 3l right? sorry, i'm not sure what noble does for a tranny if they use the mtx75 too.
This is from an email from Dave Walker:
Quote:
We use a custom forged aluminum piston from Wiseco which results in a compression ratio of about 8.5:1
The rods are Scat's 4340 forged H-beam with ARP 2000 bolts. (These are not the Q-Lite version)
Standard green top, 42 lb Ford Lightning injectors.
In terms of balancing and blueprinting:
Each crank is rebalanced to match the weight of the new forged rods and pistons. Each block is checked for deck height, main bore size, etc. Heads and cranks and inspected as well. Due to small variations in piston size, we measure each and every one in our climate controlled quality dept and then make very closely matched sets of six. After this, each block is honed to match the set of six pistons. We do this in order to maintain very tight control over the piston-to-bore clearance to reduce the possiblilty of piston slap from the increased clearance requirements of a forged piston.
Other items which are different:
1) The camshafts are a unique profile with increased lift and duration.
2) The block is specially machined to install piston squirters on each cylinder.
3) The accessory drive setup requires a non-stock front cover.
4) We use a special dual frequency damper for engine smoothness. This is not an underdrive or lightweight type change.
5) Lighter weight 19 lb flywheel (SVT flywheel)
Order Line (800) 753 5237, part# "L30NOBLE"
When I spoke on the phone with Dave he assured me that the engine comes complete with front cover, intake manifolds, and water pump.
Some time next week I'll have it sitting here and I will start a new thread. Seriously hijacked this one!
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Tom, sorry, but you'd be hard pressed to hit $2500 for a forged internal shortblock doing all the work yourself except for piston boring and balancing. Not to mention that is including a used shortblock to start with. $4300 is an exceptional deal for a mostly complete longblock.
Rick
I don't know...you get an almost new long black for about 500, rods are 1200, pistons about 700, do head work yourself, and maybe 400 machine shop work.
That's only 2800 and you have a longblock...although then you gotta get gaskets and bearings.
I got my 3L for 350 shipped to me. So about 3000 for everything plus or minus.
Gaskets- $200 +/-
Bearings $75
Head bolts or studs- $50-150
New timing assemblies- $300
DMD- $75
Flywheel- $200
42lb injectors- $200
Now tell me that you're going to pay yourself $5-10/hour to do all of that work as to do everything properly and get all of the build quality you get with one of their engines, you should spend 50-100 hours on your build and head PnP.
Rick
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Gaskets- $200 +/-
Bearings $75
Head bolts or studs- $50-150
New timing assemblies- $300
DMD- $75
Flywheel- $200
42lb injectors- $200
Now tell me that you're going to pay yourself $5-10/hour to do all of that work as to do everything properly and get all of the build quality you get with one of their engines, you should spend 50-100 hours on your build and head PnP.
Rick
Not To Mention The Cam Grind...Or Is This An ST220 Cam Basically?
If Not You Have To Assume Around $750.00 For Cams From Ford.UK Or Around $300.00 For A Grind (Wouldn't Do That In An Engine With Such Tolerances Or High RPM Anyway) And That's Being Conservative.
Tom, I Bet It Could be Reproduced For Around $3500-$3900 Per Longblock, But Not Half Price. I Do Know However, That You Would Be One Of The Best Candidates For The Job.
Between You And Rick, I Bet It Could Be Done In This Price Range And Done With a High Level Of Quality. <insert>:asskissinggraemlin:
I for one hope you plan on showing How they installed the piston squirters. The main oil galley is easily accessable and all that would be required is tapping into it and placing a threaded nozzel in there ... only caveat would be ensuring that the nozzel is pointed correctly with no way of backing out/rotating (thread locker red SHOULD do that trick). I seriously thought about this with my block and still haven't counted it out as it's still in shortblock form with the lower block fully accessable.
Oh yeah, would also want to ensure that this setup doesn't adversly affect oil pressure further down the line somehow???
Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
I def agree with Rick. Impossible for anyone to to duplicate that block, especial with all new parts. You could probaly build that 350, maybe with a single barrel carb, making less than or around 300hp. Who wants that?
I have seen a Duratec block drilled for squirters right from the main oil gallery.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Anyway, I question whether anyone at even twice that price could (practically) put together a better 3L for turbocharging than what AER offers. I'm considering the upgraded internals, ST220 cams, machining for oil squirters, additional quality control steps and such, and the fact that itâ??s a complete drop-in engine (I hope!); I think $4300 shipped to my door is a bargain. Only mass production allows this.
I CAN. I could do it for half that price for myself.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
I expect this entire combination will be routinely capable of putting out over 400 FWHP without big risk of damage.
Actually, I can make a stock block duratec engine do this....
OK. Suffice to say that the least troublesome way for me to assure myself of a quality long block, well suited for turbo charging was to write a check to AER.
Warmonger, youâ??re not saying you could assemble an equivalent Noble long block for half the price that AER does? Are you? $2150?
I know trading time for money really works when applied to engine machining and assembly. Iâ??ve built my share of inexpensive PAW small block ford kits to know that, not to mention a 390 FE and a regrettably high dollar 428 FE rebuild.
So maybe you could source the parts for less than $2150 and use your time and experience and well-equipped shop to put it together. Can you do the machining for piston squirters as well?
My engine rebuilding days are over. I never really much enjoyed that aspect of the car hobby. With the power available from forced induction and electronic tuning, I have no incentive to do the kinds of things I used to do with 60â??s iron anyway.
Sorry but I didn't say that I could do it for half the price using their same parts and methods.
I took your sentence to mean an equivalent block capable of sustaining high power forced induction.
I can do that for $2500.
And yes, I already designed an oil squirter system even though I didn't install it in my block due to time constraints, testing, and the fact that I really didn't see the need for the type of duty cycle the engine sees.
Buckshot: Even you must agree that there are enough forged pistons rolling around that they can be had affordably second-hand now. Even new I would have about $1200 into rods and with different piston choices if I chose to do both and that would leave me another $12-1300. I would NOT go to the expense of the ST220 cams as they aren't worth the money when you can produce godawfull amounts of power with a set of stock escape cams or even SVT cams. And don't forget that a long block has none of the conversions requirements to run the contour intakes and stuff like that. He will still have to do all that work on top of the $4500 initial investment. So yeah, I think I'm on the mark for $2500 for a long block that can take 500-600 crank horsepower.
Also, let not forget what we are building the engine for? Street, strip, oval?
One night a week at the drag strip is not the same as racing continually at high rpm/power levels. How long the engine stays at max rpm and max boost is a big factor in the choice for oil squirters, springs, retainers, etc. I"m assuming he's doing what I did, building a street/strip car.
On the other hand:
For peace of mind, $4500 for a long block is a good deal, esp. considering the price of a new stock motor. Excellent deal actually.
But having been in and out of these engines this whole time I know now what to replace and what not to. I know what to mod, and when to do it.
And finally, I can say I know how to produce a most excellent tune and that is probably 75% of the equation when it comes to reliability and durability.
Originally posted by Ray:
I'd buy THAT for a dollar!
Wait... I DID buy that!
And, yes.. it WILL produce 400+ FWHP reliably...
Congrats on your purchase Jim!!
LMAO.
Wait, where are my pictures? 
Also why I feel that my $6K motor is getting shunned is that everyone doesn't grasp it's capabilities. This block was built for road racing (sustained high RPM) and all the components used where sourced accordingly. Yet nobody can see past the sticker price. $6K shipped is an awesome deal for a drop in engine and trust me, I'm loosing quite a bit of money on it! That figure is parts alone and doesn't account for assembly & packaging for S&H.
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
Rifle drilled rods isn't what they're advertising though, it's oil squirters. In most cases, oil squirters are drilled/tapped into the oil gally and use 1/16" or so tubing aimed up to hit the bottom of the piston...
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Also why I feel that my $6K motor is getting shunned is that everyone doesn't grasp it's capabilities. This block was built for road racing (sustained high RPM) and all the components used where sourced accordingly. Yet nobody can see past the sticker price. $6K shipped is an awesome deal for a drop in engine and trust me, I'm loosing quite a bit of money on it! That figure is parts alone and doesn't account for assembly & packaging for S&H.
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Trust me I would buy your engine if I had the funds.
Aaron
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Trevor,
I seriously doubt they went to the trouble/expense of adding an auxilary setup that has nozzles, etc to get the piston bottoms coated. The easiest setup I saw was rifle drilling the rods so the oil is actually pushed up through the center of the rod to the wrist pin and then out through another hole at the top of the pin housing on the rod. Cunningham rods offered this service when I ordered my original set of rods from them.
Rick
I know, they where an option on my Pauter rods
I was speaking more along the lines of the squirters found on the Mazda 1.6L Turbo blocks found in the GTX (I think that's the model ... AWD turbo 323 basically).
Originally posted by fastcougar:
.....
As much as I value your input Tom, I don't see how you can say that you can build a 500+hp engine when the rods are not proven to that power rating. However you "feel" is not what has been proven.
Oh, I don't know about that. What would a 500 HP engine put down to the ground?
Assuming about 18% loss, a loss of about 90 HP would yield 410 HP at the wheels?
You also have to understand the rods aren't "proven" to a horsepower rating anyway. The performance companies sell them that way based on artificial assumptions and because HP numbers are what people want to hear.
You should know that a metal part really only has a few mechanical properties that can determine its usefullness. Giving a horsepower rating to a rod is a BOGUS rating , a guideline only, or to just plain sell product. When I mention a power rating I'm talking about the engine package as a whole, not the individual rod.
Dynamic tensile stress, static compressive stress, fatigue and maybe shear that would be stresses I'd be concerned with right off the bat. The properties of the rod are going to be the Yield Strength and Ultimate Tensile Strength, elasticity, K1c fracture toughness; to name a few.
All I'm saying is that it is a load of bunk when you buy rods rated at 1000 horsepower because you don't even know how many rods (cylinders) they are talking about or the loads associated with the engine and how much each rod sees?
Does anyone get what I'm pointing at???
Lets assume you just put in forged pistons to a compression ratio of 9:1 and used stock rods. Then set it up to be a 500 HP engine. The stock rods have been dyno proven to 350 ft-lbs of torque; to 7200 rpm while under 300+ ft-lbs of torque, by me. They've handled upwards of 8000rpm by DemonSVT, 8500rpm under load I think I remember and sustained it no sweat not a mark. Same rod is used in mulitiple engines of differen't power ratings.
The tensile stress is based mainly on rpm and ultimately the accelerations the piston sees. The compressive stress is the load due to the combustion pressure...the power stroke. Therefore 350 ft-lbs at 4000 rpm should be no more harmful to the rods than 350 ft-lbs at 6500 rpm since the rods are proven capable of significantly higher rpms.
Just think, 350ft-lbs at only 6300rpm will yield approximately 420 HP. 420 at the wheels back calculated is over 500 crankshaft horsepower even optimistically using an efficient conversion.YOu want to make power, make your peak torque higher in the power band, end of story.
BTW, when you buy an engine rated at a certain power it is rated at the crank because they have no idea what you coupling the engine to, and what the drivetrain losses.
Hence I can comfortably say that I can build an engine capable of producing 500 HP for $2500.
Then I can be equally comfortable saying that you'd need another 4 grand for the turbo/accessories and tuning. But hey, we're talking drop-in long blocks right?
Originally posted by warmonger:
Does anyone get what I'm pointing at???
Lets assume you just put in forged pistons to a compression ratio of 9:1 and used stock rods. Then set it up to be a 500 HP engine.
I gotcha Tom.... nudge nudge...
It's kind of like many of the non FDA approved drugs that guarantee weight loss. Just because some people take the drug and loose weight doesn't mean the drug did it....nor does it mean it didin't.
For all the naysayers on the stock rods strength...who has even broken a rod? I know there is a well known person that believes they strech, but that theory has changed a couple times too.
There are just too many variables.
I see where you are coming from Tom and knew everything you stated, but it's not proven ... one engine proves nothing. Right now your batting 100 ... what happens when you add in more and more engines to mix ... some are bound to fail. Nobel knows this and thus why they went with a forged rod.
I'm not the only one though.
Also, there are other factors that indicate the rod strength is high enough.
Don't you remember when I said I've actually tested 3 different sets of rods to above the 300 HP level. The first engine, then I cracked the pistons on it. Replaced pistons and rod combos and ran that engine. Then changed to a '01 escape 3L and ran that one.
Those pistons and rods have been sustaining over two years of boost and the engine was never set below 300 wHP while I owned it.
So how do you explain that?
While you guys were debating it for the last two years, I was already running boosted for a year on the first motor. This last motor was a year and a half of boost before Ray bought it.
While people were spending years on their buildups I was grinning from ear to ear.
My car never saw less than 200 wHP since 2001. The secret was planning and doing the project in stages to give myself a chance to figure out the effects of each mod, then enjoy it at the same time. It wasn't allways easy but I managed to overall love 95% of every minute with my car. The longest it was ever down was about a month when I was first doing the first 3L swap with the custom heads. Then the last time was with the pipework.
Mostly, I just drove the hell out of it loving every minute of it, and with the money I saved I could still take my woman to Taco Bell
<big spender right?> lol
Originally posted by warmonger:
and with the money I saved I could still take my woman to Taco Bell <big spender right?> lol
Taco Bell... Hmmm, the only survivor of the franchise wars... â??Now everything is taco bell!"
Originally posted by warmonger:
Those pistons and rods have been sustaining over two years of boost and the engine was never set below 300 wHP while I owned it....
...a year and a half of boost before Ray bought it.
I don't have long to get on CEG, lately but;
The motor hasn't seen less than 350+wheels since I got it, either, and is now pushing much more than that. It will continue to do so. If I can't drive a car the way I WANT to drive it and at the power levels that I am desiring, then what is the point of having it, right? I bought the car in full confidence, and will continue to keep that confidence. The motor is being upped in stages, and upgraded as those stages require. I do not intend for the levels to go down once established safely. These rods are not, IMHO, what anyone should be spending their money (and mod TIME!!) on.
Ummmmm Ray, when did this happen?
Originally posted by Ray's sig:
414/379 wHP/TQ at 14psi on pump gas!
Mark
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Stock rods have been shown to be good up to 350+ whp. Nobody has broken one yet on a FI application.
I've heard 415+ actually and I agree with the second point.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Stock rods have been shown to be good up to 350+ whp. Nobody has broken one yet on a FI application.
I've heard 415+ actually and I agree with the second point.
The Demon is alive!!
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Ummmmm Ray, when did this happen?
Originally posted by Ray's sig:
414/379 wHP/TQ at 14psi on pump gas!
Mark
That's what i'm wondering....
