Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives
Posted By: Bronco_WRX The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 07:02 PM
After nearly 10 months of sitting, my CSVT is finally running again, with a 3L no doubt. The parts list is as follows:

- 2003 Sable 3L Duratec (~17k miles)
- 3L oval port heads (port matched to SVT LIM, 3-angle valve job, other key areas massaged (all done by Livernois Motorsports))
- 3L oil pan
- SVT cams
- SVT LIM (stock 19# injectors, gutted secondaries)
- SVT UIM
- SVT TB and MAF
- DMD (pre-existing mod)
- SHO-Shop Intake (pre-existing mod)
- Weapon-R headers and Y-pipe
- Tru-bendz 3-bolt high flow cat
- exhaustdirect.com 3-bolt flex pipe
- Tru-bendz 2.5" catback (pre-existing mod)
- Torsen T-2 Limited Slip Differential
- SPEC Stage 3 clutch
- SPEC aluminum flywheel
- SCT XCal-2 with PRP

*Thanks to my brother who installed everything!

DTC's at the moment:
- P0171 (bank 1 lean)
- P0174 (bank 2 lean)
- P1131 (bank 1 O2 sensor malfunction)

Review:
I still can't wipe the smile off of my face for finally getting to drive my CSVT again, even if it's not running as good as it needs to be . Right now the car has been idling pretty rough, like lower than it should be, and slightly oscillating up and down in RPM in about a 1 second wavelength (sorry, I got burnt out on Physics II last semester). It also occasionally stalls if the RPMs drop too quickly (i.e. pushing the clutch in during deceleration). I think both of those problems coincide with the P0171 and P0174 codes, and possibly point to some sort of vacuum leak (hopefully not a gasket). The P1131 code just seems to indicate that I need to replace the bank 1 upstream O2 sensor.

Other than those problems it seems to run pretty well for how much has changed. There is definitely some tuning that needs to be done in the RPMs below the old IMRC point. I disabled it in the computer but haven't completely compensated for it in the fuel/timing department. There is mostly a lack of power below IMRC, but it does try and spike up occasionally, so I know it's there, but it just has to be tuned up and smoothed out.

I richened the lower RPMs by 10% and the upper RPMs by 5%, and added 4* of timing across the whole range, and it seems to be running noticeably better. I also played around with the dashpot decay rate to try to stop the car from stalling on deceleration, and it seems to be helping even though the car stalled two more times after I changed it.

I also got livinsvt's Innovate LM-1 wideband A/F meter hooked up to it (thanks Bret!), and it seems to be lean at partial throttle and idle (was idling anywhere from 16-21:1 ), but it was pretty close to what it should be at WOT.

So far I have about 250 miles on the car. I absolutely love how the SPEC flywheel makes the car rev. The SPEC Stage 3 clutch doesn't take any more pressure to push than my stock SVT clutch did. There is definitely a shorter engagement to it, but nothing terribly hard to street. It does shudder a bit at times if you apply the gas and engage it in a certain way, but it seems to be getting better as it keeps getting broken in. There is some slight chatter when the car is in neutral and the clutch is engaged, but it really isn't that noticeable at all.

The exhaust note sounds great and very mean, but not obnoxiously loud, and there's no droning on the highway. The fitment of the Tru-bendz cat was a bit of a problem, though. The washers they sent with it were too small and very flimsy, and the weird angle at the end that connects to the catback made us have to use a thicker gasket along with the one they supplied me. The weird angle also caused the catback to shift towards the passenger side which made the muffler rub, and occasionally vibrate, on the underside of the car. I'm going to take it to a muffler shop to have it fixed as soon as I get some spare cash.

Thanks to 5Speed3.0SE, livinsvt, DemonSVT, warmonger, SVTCuervo, fastcougar, Blackcoog, Livernois Motorsports, exhaustdirect.com, Brent at Brenspeed, Tru-bendz, Weapon-R, SCTFlash and everyone else who helped out with this project, for either giving me advice and insight, or getting me parts at discounted prices. I appreciate it! Pictures of pretty much everything are available if anyone is interested.

P.S. If anyone wants to give me advice on how to get my car running in top shape, I would also appreciate it!
Posted By: Livinsvt_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 07:12 PM
The 16-21 at idle isn't so bad, its the 36-41 that had me concerned.

The setup looks great. Not even a trained eye would no it was a 3.0. You would have to find the stamping on the block. Glad you got it done and glad I could help. Well sorta help at least.
Posted By: MapOfTaziFoSho Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 07:20 PM
good to hear! I love driving my car all over again!
Posted By: fastcougar_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 07:44 PM
Congratulations!

Your rough idle is most likely associated with the extra air coming in through the LIM it's not expecting ... get this fuel/timing maps massaged for the lack of the LIM secondaries and all will be good!
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 07:58 PM
Originally posted by fastcougar:
Congratulations!

Your rough idle is most likely associated with the extra air coming in through the LIM it's not expecting ... get this fuel/timing maps massaged for the lack of the LIM secondaries and all will be good!




Any other possibilities? I'm having the EXACT same issues. Just replaced the LIM & UIM gaskets, my IAC looks new inside, and everything else seems to be good. But I get:

low idle(~600rpms)
rough idle(jumps from 500-700 a little faster than the tic-toc of a clock.)
dies on deceleration when pushing in the clutch, but only once in a while.

Mark
Posted By: fastcougar_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:03 PM
SVT 19# injectors + SVT MAF + SVT ECU = Looking for IMRC. The IMRC blocks off roughly 1/2 the engine's incoming air (more like 40-40% due to diameter difference in primary vs. secondary openings) until activation point. If you have "pinned" or "gutted" the IMRC, but are using the SVT ECU, the timing/fuel curves are expecting it. Thus, you are getting only enough fuel for 1/2 the air you are letting in. The "surging" is due to the engine trying to compensate via O2 readings. Fatten up the pre IMRC RPM range with fuel and play with the timing and you should be fine. DemonSVT can get more specific on the numbers to adjust to since he has done this before.
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:08 PM
So strange how each car responds differently to 3L engines. My oval port runs pretty well. Only code is for gutted precats. Biggers that I did has the same exact set up and gets an IMRC code. No ryhme or reason as to what will happen it seems.
Posted By: fastcougar_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:16 PM
It's all in the tune ... you will get her sorted out
Posted By: RTStabler51_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:23 PM
Mine runs fine for the most part. Idle hunts here and there, but now I can't get it past emissions inspection because a few tests aren't complete and it had 250 miles on it!
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:30 PM
Originally posted by fastcougar:
It's all in the tune ... you will get her sorted out




In my case(and not to hi-jack the thread), everything is the same as with a 2.5L, other than the 3L block, 65mm T/B and 3" intake pipe. Well, I've got 39# 03 Cobra injectors, but the tune(Xcal2) was programmed for them. I've gotten A/F printouts and my A/F is exactly where I want it, atleast on WOT runs. I just can't get the idle issue under control. I must be missing a SMALL intake leak somewhere.

Mark
Posted By: fastcougar_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:32 PM
Or you MAF might be dirty ... have you cleaned your MAF sensor? Do you know how?
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:46 PM
Cleaned it a year ago with my last intake cleaning. I forgot to mention that this was something I hadn't done yet with the new intake rebuild. I'll give it a shot. But with everything I've done, I swear it's fixed. I'll drive it all that day, and the rpm's sit perfect at ~700rpms, no bouncing idle, and no dying. Then, the next day is when the rough idle comes back.

This scenerio happened with:

cleaning the IAC
replacing intake gaskets
putting in an EGR gasket that wasn't there.

Each time I swore it was fixed for good. The next day is when it starts to happen again. Each time I've reset the battery.

Mark
Posted By: fastcougar_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:54 PM
3 words: Spark Plug Gap!

Ensure that ALL the spark plugs are gapped the EXACT Same and gap them a little on the low side. Spec calls for .054 IIRC ... gap them all to .050 and see what happens. My wife's 1996 Explorer had the same exact problem ... regapping slightly smaller cured the problem for good.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Cleaned it a year ago with my last intake cleaning. I forgot to mention that this was something I hadn't done yet with the new intake rebuild. I'll give it a shot. But with everything I've done, I swear it's fixed. I'll drive it all that day, and the rpm's sit perfect at ~700rpms, no bouncing idle, and no dying. Then, the next day is when the rough idle comes back.

This scenerio happened with:

cleaning the IAC
replacing intake gaskets
putting in an EGR gasket that wasn't there.

Each time I swore it was fixed for good. The next day is when it starts to happen again. Each time I've reset the battery.

Mark




Pull the battery cable and kill the long term memory in the pcm.
This will force the pcm to relearn everything. It could be that as the pcm is learning it starts to develop issues.
If the car runs and idles good at first after the battery reset, then gets bad over time, you probably have to set a few things related to engine displacement and commanded A/F.
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 08:59 PM
I'll have to try that. Everything I've seen on here with the FAQ's and other random posts call for .054, so that's what we gapped them at. If cleaning the MAF, swapping out the T/B and hose clamping that hose doesn't work, I'll re-gap the plugs.

Mark
Posted By: Keyser Soze Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 09:07 PM
Neutral Idle Air values need to be re done.
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Keyser:
Neutral Idle Air values need to be re done.




Soooo, basically I'm just chasing my own tail?

Are there certain perameters that I can reference for my tuner, so he can make sure they're correct? I don't know enough about tuning(why I didn't get the PRP), so I might be way off with the question I just asked you. Any insight on what the neutral idle air values should be?

Mark
Posted By: kinger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/10/06 09:32 PM
Are you worried about the Lean codes and running only 19# injectors? I assume your babying it till you get 24#'ers tuned? Sorry I didn't read the book just skimmed so I apologize if you stated that
Posted By: Blackcoog_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 01:21 AM
I still don't see why you would be running that lean. Every 3L I've built runs perfect on the 19lb injectors. The ones I had dyno tuned had the air/fuel spot on before the tune. I'd check for a vacuum leak as with the codes for both banks lean it sounds like a vacuum leak before the intake manifold. Check the intake with carb cleaner or starter fluid to see if the car revs up.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 05:24 AM
Originally posted by Blackcoog:
I still don't see why you would be running that lean. Every 3L I've built runs perfect on the 19lb injectors. The ones I had dyno tuned had the air/fuel spot on before the tune. I'd check for a vacuum leak as with the codes for both banks lean it sounds like a vacuum leak before the intake manifold. Check the intake with carb cleaner or starter fluid to see if the car revs up.




As were my experiences and many others who actually got theirs tuned and running right.
Hell, using stock 2.5L SVT code and hardware you'll make more power and have less headaches than any normal mail order tune.
Just my advice.........
Posted By: Livinsvt_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 05:36 AM
Its not the injectors. Still seeing about 13.2:1 afr at WOT. The issue is at idle and decel. Maybe it is in the tuning down low, just need to add some fuel and mess with the idle values as Keyser mentioned.
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 01:57 PM
Originally posted by livinsvt:
Its not the injectors. Still seeing about 13.2:1 afr at WOT. The issue is at idle and decel. Maybe it is in the tuning down low, just need to add some fuel and mess with the idle values as Keyser mentioned.




Seems exactly like my problem. 13.2:1AFR @ WOT just like I wanted it, but my idle is off. I might just go visit my tuner and have him make some adjustments.

Mark
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 02:40 PM
That may be contributing but I wouldnt think that was the whole problem.

Misfiring at idle can be ignition, or O2 sensor bad (which you can watch them both and compare banks together at idle and cruise for diagnosis), vacuum leaks, wrong sized pcv, air leaking in after the MAF but between the throttlebody, and a few others or any combination.

I found that the basic idle and airflow stuff didn't need to be touched much if at all for a smooth idle to develop.
I ran mine at 750 or 800rpm idle all the time, can't remember which one I settled for.

Just don't forget to sit down with a program and watch those upstream O2s and compare them with the downstream O2s and cross-bank. That tells you a tremendous amount.

If you pulled your downstream O2s ( ) then you will have to compare cross bank but it is less effective.
Posted By: Stazi Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/11/06 02:44 PM
The last 3L I built and finished on Sunday has a Brnespeed Xcal2 tune on it. It has SVT cams, 19# injectors, no EGR, No lower O2's, and gutted precats, stock SVT exhaust.

It idled like stock - EXACTLY and pullled very nicely indeed.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/13/06 06:19 AM
Yeah, good. Just what I'd expect. You don't need those other things for it to run good.

However;
Only bones I have to pick is pulling the downstream O2s when they don't NEED to be pulled, AND can be used as a backup diagnostic tool. They also don't set codes when you solder in the resistor and Capacitor from the MIL circuit....making them perfect backup sensors for tuning. Believe me, I used them a lot to diagnose/compare upstream downstream performance and bank to bank performance.
And pulling EGR when it has no effect on performance but if kept installed can help reduce Nox emissions.

I keep anything that doesn't hurt my automotive goals. Namely my priorities are set as such:
safety->performance->environment->OEM driveability->fuel economy
Posted By: Bronco_WRX Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/13/06 09:44 PM
Well I've been fiddling with fuel and timing and I seem to have gotten the car running quite a bit better (stronger and smoother). I'm still having a problem with idle, though. I tried adding 2.5% more fuel (on top of the 10% I added before) through the MAF transfer function (#MASS/TIC at MAF counts <265) but the car started idling around 1400 RPMs, albeit smoothly. I changed the values back to original and the idle went back to the way it was (<750RPM and oscillating). I tried playing with the values in the isc_Neutral_idle_air table but it doesnt seem to be doing much to cure the idle problems. I guess I'll try to make greater changes on it.


BTW, can anyone give me some reference numbers on how much timing they've been able to add below and above the IMRC point? I keep adding timing and I don't hear any detonation, but I want to know how much I should expect to be able to add.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/13/06 10:08 PM
IMRC adds like 10-14 degrees above the base timing curve.

Without it you can probably add at least 5% top the base timing below IMRC and smoothly transitioning to upwards of 15% increase as you go above 4000rpm. That would be my guess for a car with no secondaries, NA on 10:1 compression. You of course have to adjust that based on your own compression ratio and/or boost/nitrous if applicable.

As far as adding fuel with your MAF, that is not the best way unless you have a MAF with an unknown MAF transfer function, i.e. you are trying to tune in the MAF.
If you want more fuel then add it to the base tables.

In your case, you may want to add a little bit then just drive it around an hour and let it learn. THen examine the fuel trims throughout the 'cruising' rpm range in 500 rpm increments. If you have anything outside +-5% in long term fuel trim then you can start guessing what the airflow was at that rpm and throttle positions, then add +-5% to your MAF in that area, then of course smoothly transition it to the areas where you didn't need to add any fuel.
Posted By: Bronco_WRX Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/14/06 04:22 AM
Yeah I figured that changing the MAF transfer function wasn't the best way to deal with the idle issues I'm having, but the base fuel table only goes down to 1000 RPM. The long term trims were originally off by roughly 10-20% in low MAF counts so I adjusted the MAF transfer function to get them closer to 1. The car seemed to run a lot better after this.

Update on the idle issue:
I multiplied my original values in the isc_Neutral_idle_air table (from 1392 RPM and below) by 1.2 to see if the surging would stop, and it did seem to get quite better, but now at least half of the time I decelerate to idle, the idle hangs around 1300-1400 RPM. Sometimes it stays there until I accelerate again, and sometimes it will eventually drop back to my set idle of 750 RPM. When it goes to 750 RPM, it has never jumped back up to 1300-1400 RPM, though. Is there any other possible settings that could be making the RPMs hang, or did I probably just multiply by too much? The idle_speed_RPM_adder_for_ACT (inlet air temp) table is all set to zero, so it couldn't be that. However, the idle_speed_RPM_adder_for_ECT (coolant temp) table has different values in it, but the max value of 504 for added RPM is only when coolant temp is at -256 and -20, which seem to be impossible values to come across when the engine is running.

Here's what my isc_Neutral_idle_air table looks like after the 1.2 multiplication:

DSDRPM --- AIR_#/M
4095.9375 --- 2.0000
4080.0000 --- 2.0000
1792.0000 --- 0.9399
1392.0000 --- 0.9116
720.0000 --- 0.4922
520.0000 --- 0.3599
0.0000 --- 0.3242
0.0000 --- 0.3242
0.0000 --- 0.3242

Now this may be a stupid question, but I see that my target idle RPM of 750 is not listed in the left of the table, so would changing one of the zeros on the left to 750 and finding an AIR_#/M value for it possibly make the car idle stable at 750 RPM?
Posted By: MapOfTaziFoSho Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/14/06 04:42 AM
we should meet up and figure out this problem cuz I am in the exact same boat. I figure datalog at idle an see just how much airflow you are getting and then use some function to equate a new percentage of airflow at idle.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/14/06 05:16 PM
You guys shouldn't have to make changes to those tables to get it to run and idle.

I can't really help diagnose a problem like that without exact info like injector size (and what they were stock) TB size and what it was stock, MAF and if it is stock or not, type of manifold setup, 3L or 2.5L.

Just FYI, the basic 3L will run just fine on an SVT base tune, injectors and MAF. NO changes would be needed to get it to run.

If you took a non SVT 2.5L and converted to a 3L, I'd suggest you start there and use the values from someones stock SVT code and put them in over your base code. THEN change those things that are 3L related like engine displacement, injector size if not 19#/hr, and MAF transfer function if not an SVT MAF.

Above all, you must make sure you have no mechanical problem or vacuum leaks first. You must not have an atmospheric vent PCV system either. PCV air is metered into the engine and counted through the MAF so it must draw air after it has been measured by the MAF. THis air affects idle and cruise, only Full throttle it isn't used.
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 04:07 AM
3L Hybrid SVT
SVT heads/cams & intake manifolds(2.5L)
SVT MAF(stock for me)
39# 03/04 Cobra injectors
65mm Mustang GT throttle body

I've checked for intake leaks, replaced the UIM/LIM gaksets, EGR gasket, cleaned the IAC, etc. I'm going to try cleaning the MAF wires to see if that helps. If not, I don't know what else to try, other than work with the tune. I don't hear an intake leak anywhere, have done the soapy water test on everything that I thought could be leaking. Everything looks great.

I don't know what was done with the tune, as I ordered my Xcal2 through Brenspeed. My dyno graphs look awesome, but maybe there is a little work to be done at idle.

Mark
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 03:48 PM
Is your MAF stock? Are your injectors 24#?

You can tune the car by adjusting the MAF curve so that it gives you good WOT A/F and power, but in so doing you may be screwing up the non WOT driveability.

Because of this you need to use the stock MAF and leave the stock MAF transfer function, then adjust the commanded air fuel from the fuel base table to pull or add fuel as necessary.

If it is not a stock MAF then the challenge will be in accurately figuring out the MAF function.
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 03:52 PM
Isn't the SVT the same as the other V6's MAF's. That's what I've always read here. Wouldn't make sense since SVT's have larger injectors. I have an SE MAF on my SVT right now. No issues.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 04:07 PM
Todd, I can't answer that. From what I've seen there have been different MAFs on the same year and model of car, the calibration numbers being different.
This isn't a big deal as the computer can adapt to these different calibrations easily enough if you had to change it and if it was the only change.
As far as the 'size' of the MAF, regarding its airflow capability I would think all of the 2.5 MAFs would be pretty similar, in the 700 kg/hr range.

However, if the chip/tune has disabled the learning features, or if the maf calibration is off just enough combined with the added effects of different manifolds or hardware, displacement, TB size, etc., then I'd say it could knock it far enough out that you'd get driveability issues.

The biggest factors I've found in tuning this engine were:
the maf calibration and getting it correctly entered into the computer,
throttlebody size and amount of leakage past the throttleplate,
length of the intake tract between the MAF and the TB,
PCV system routing,
injector size.

Some of these are easy to fix, some not. The TB sizing issues can be hard to solve if you have a leaky throttlebody. I've even filled in the pre-drilled hole on most of the larger TB plates to reduce airflow at idle so the engine will be able to drop down to 700rpm range. I had one TB that was leaking around the shaft bearings enough that it would idle at 800-900rpm even with the IAC tube pinched completely shut.

The only way to determine the throttlebody leakage issues (assuming you have no manifold leaks) is to plug/pinch the IAC line and Plug off the PCV line so that they don't introduce any more air.
If the engine stalls out, then the PCM should be able to control the idle by adjusting the IAC. IF it will still idle with the IAC tube pinched off, then how high is the idle and try plugging the PCV line off. Eventually you can determine where the air is coming from and work on it. THe troublesome TB that I had gave me lots of grief until I installed sealing o-rings with grease onto the shafts on the outside of the bearings. THe it worked like a charm.
Posted By: todras_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 04:20 PM
If you try to order a MAF drom Bill online. There are only 2 MAF's listed. 2L and 2.5L just as an FYI so this would prove V6's all use the same MAF.
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 05:24 PM
Originally posted by warmonger:
Is your MAF stock? Are your injectors 24#?




Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
3L Hybrid SVT
SVT heads/cams & intake manifolds(2.5L)
SVT MAF(stock for me)
39# 03/04 Cobra injectors

65mm Mustang GT throttle body




Mark
Posted By: TourDeForce Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 07:11 PM
To determine if the MAF is at fault, couldn't he just unplug it?
Posted By: 96 M edition Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/15/06 10:20 PM
but all the maf's arent the same,if you have access to the full SCT software you can look this up,when i had my car tuned last year the tuner showed me the difference between the svt maf program and the stock duratec maf program,they are different in tune,but not size obv'ly
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/16/06 10:07 PM
Originally posted by todras:
If you try to order a MAF drom Bill online. There are only 2 MAF's listed. 2L and 2.5L just as an FYI so this would prove V6's all use the same MAF.




True. Same part number but not necessarily the same calibration number.

This also is the answer to the post right above mine.

The car comes with the maf calibration (the one it came new with) already in the pcm. Change it and you change some characteristics.

Posted By: Bronco_WRX Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/23/06 06:21 AM
Update:
Today I found a vacuum leak on my UIM using carb cleaner. It is still idling rough, but would completely smooth out every time I hit a certain spot on the gasket between the UIM and LIM with carb cleaner. My bro and I will be taking off the UIM tomorrow and inspecting the gaskets.

Other than that, my only other concern is a slight hesitation/bogging between 2k and 3k RPMs under partial throttle (usually closer to 2k). That and there still feels like there's an IMRC in my car . In other words, I still feel a jump up in power around 3k RPMs. Above 3k the car hauls balls though! It seems to me that only more tuning needs to be done (after fixing this vacuum leak of course!).
Posted By: Y2KSVT Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/23/06 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Bronco_3LSVT:
there still feels like there's an IMRC in my car . In other words, I still feel a jump up in power around 3k RPMs. Above 3k the car hauls balls though! It seems to me that only more tuning needs to be done (after fixing this vacuum leak of course!).




Even if you turned your IMRC off, your timing still jumps. The IMRC point adds 10* of timing, so you'll still get that kick in the pants, until you smooth that transition out.

Mark
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/28/06 12:43 AM
Originally posted by Bronco_3LSVT:
Update:
Today I found a vacuum leak on my UIM using carb cleaner. It is still idling rough, but would completely smooth out every time I hit a certain spot on the gasket between the UIM and LIM with carb cleaner. My bro and I will be taking off the UIM tomorrow and inspecting the gaskets.

Other than that, my only other concern is a slight hesitation/bogging between 2k and 3k RPMs under partial throttle (usually closer to 2k). That and there still feels like there's an IMRC in my car . In other words, I still feel a jump up in power around 3k RPMs. Above 3k the car hauls balls though! It seems to me that only more tuning needs to be done (after fixing this vacuum leak of course!).




Okay! Git er done....I want to see some new kick ass 3L #s

And I'll take a bow now, I was 99% positive you still had a vacuum leak even though I tried to post everything that could be an issues for you.
Posted By: Bronco_WRX Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/28/06 03:29 PM
Yeah, that's why a lot of my questions come to you

What sucks is we took the UIM off and inspected the gaskets, especially right where the carb cleaner was affecting idle, and everything looks to be perfectly fine. The gaskets look fine and there was a little line on top of the LIM all the way around the suspect area which looks like it sealed good. We replaced the UIM gaskets anyways since I had a spare set laying around (the ones we originally used were also new BTW), and the idle got slightly better, but the problem is still there and that same area still reacts to carb cleaner slightly. Has anyone else had problems with getting the UIM to seal properly?

Also, is there any way in the SCT PRP to add more columns to the base fuel and knock tables? The RPMs only go in increments of 1000 on the fuel table and I want to at least have it go by 500 RPMs.

[Edit]
I forgot to mention about the IMRC spark adder. When the IMRC is turned off in the software, all of the IMRC specific tables disappear with it, so I'm guessing that there's no ~10* of timing being added anymore at IMRC point. I even turned it back on to zero them all out and turned it back off to be safe, but I still feel that jump in power at ~3000 RPM. I guess it's time to play with fuel and timing once more
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: The 3L is up and running! - 05/29/06 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Bronco_3LSVT:
Yeah, that's why a lot of my questions come to you

What sucks is we took the UIM off and inspected the gaskets, especially right where the carb cleaner was affecting idle, and everything looks to be perfectly fine. The gaskets look fine and there was a little line on top of the LIM all the way around the suspect area which looks like it sealed good. We replaced the UIM gaskets anyways since I had a spare set laying around (the ones we originally used were also new BTW), and the idle got slightly better, but the problem is still there and that same area still reacts to carb cleaner slightly. Has anyone else had problems with getting the UIM to seal properly?

Also, is there any way in the SCT PRP to add more columns to the base fuel and knock tables? The RPMs only go in increments of 1000 on the fuel table and I want to at least have it go by 500 RPMs.

[Edit]
I forgot to mention about the IMRC spark adder. When the IMRC is turned off in the software, all of the IMRC specific tables disappear with it, so I'm guessing that there's no ~10* of timing being added anymore at IMRC point. I even turned it back on to zero them all out and turned it back off to be safe, but I still feel that jump in power at ~3000 RPM. I guess it's time to play with fuel and timing once more




What kind of conversion have you done with the LIM to the heads?
Whatever you did, you can always take black RTV silicone and put it around all the o-rings and let it cure over night. The silicone pulls off easily when you go to change out, and you can get away with using the older gaskets for a Test so that you don't get it all over the newer ones. Anyway, it will definitely seal the area if there isn't something drastically wrong. Also, be sure not to start the engine until the silicone is set up because you don't want to suck it into the engine past the gaskets. You also don't need a lot, just enough around the o-rings to fill any gaps with the mating surface. I'd recommend pulling the LIM and sealing the gaskets against the head side first. That way the LIM can be put on and off easily and not be attached. The gaskets will be sealed against the heads and will stay in place on subsequent cleanings. While you have it off you can see if your lower gaskets or mating surfaces are damaged in any way.

Next, with the LIM off you can check out your injector orings where they seal into the manifolds and make sure they aren't cracked and leaking air.
finally, if that is all good you can seal the upper IM gaskets to the LIM so that you can easily remove the upper if the problem persists after the above mentioned tricks.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 How to use PRP, ranges defined - 05/29/06 05:11 PM
You don't need to add more columns to your tables, you just need to change the axes of the colums so that you can change the increments.

below the actual tables in each section are little tables of columns that show the normalizers for each axis.
Such as this example for the maf tables:

ynorm_maf_01(stock) xnorm_maf_01(stock)
TP Row # RPM Col #
1023.9844 9 16383.75 9
750 9 7000 9
500 8 4000 7
300 6 3000 6
0 0 1800 2
0 0 600 0
0 0 0 0
0 0


The first column is ynorm_maf and the second is xnorm_maf.

the Y axis is the value in Throttleposition counts for the stock MAF at each row. The zeros are just blanks that can be used if you want to specify more of the rows.
The top row number is 9 meaning there will be 10 rows in the table the bottom being 0. That means that the number of row s will be 10, with the range of TP going from 0 to 750. THe 6 row will be 300, 8th 500, and 9th 750. Well if you look at it, that means that from rows 0-6 you have a TP value of 0-300, meaning that the computer will automatically assign a value for rows 1,2,3,4,5 in equal spacing.
Like this:
0 - 0
50 - 1
100 - 2
150 - 3
200 - 4
250 - 5
300 - 6

And so on. If you wish, you can change the top end of the scale from 750 to say 900 at row 9 and specify the 0 position as zero. The computer would assign all values in between evenly. IF you felt the need to specify exact areas of TP then you can do as above, up to and including using every cell to specify a rang of TP.

For the RPM range it is the same way.
Say you want extra precision in your table from 3200-3800 rpm so you can tune that area in better detail. It would look like this:
0 - 0
0 - 600
2 - 1800
3 - 3200
4 - 3400
5 - 3550
6 - 3700
7 - 3900
9 - 7000
9 - 16383.75

The bottom 0 - 0 and 16383.75 - 9 is automatic and defines the min/max values for the table. Anything you input falls in between. By assigning 7000rpm the value of the 9th column you end the range there rather than at 16383rpm. Anything above 7000 rpm will use the same values as you input into the cells below the 7000 rpm range at the respective TP values.

So, if you don't car and want even spacing assigned by the computer you do the following
0 - 0
....(meaning other cells filled with 0 - 0)
0 - 600
9 - 7000
9 - 16383.75
Now the computer will assign the rpm to the ten columns evenly from the two values in even increments, 640 rpm each so that column 0 - 640, 1 - 1280, 2 - 1920, ... 8 - 6360, 9 - 7000.


Okay, hope this is clear enough on how to modify the axes for ANY of the tables in your PRP setup.
I advise you to NOT adjust the ranges unless you have something you want to do. For example fuel and or timing control of the IMRC point, or changing the RPM range of the actual IMRC point. You can specfiy added areas of rpm and load for the IMRC opening/closing points to take care of certain problems, or to smooth transitions out.
Also, if your rpm range is raised and you feel you need to alter something at rpms above 7000 rpm, in such a way that the values used in the cells below 7000 rpm doesn't apply, then you would make your upper limit the rpm where you want to change that thing, such as 7200 rpm; say for increased fuel at the top of the range for added resistance to detonation.

Clear? Clear as Mud I'll bet. Well don't anyone go PM'ing me over this. IF you have questions post them here where others who have time and experience can elaborate on this stuff and when I get time I'll come back on and help.
With the frequency of people buying the PRP going up, this kind of information will become more usefull, and when people understand that tuning isn't Voodoo or Rocket science then maybe there will be less people paying through the nose when they really want to do the detail work themselves.
Good luck.
Posted By: Bronco_WRX Re: How to use PRP, ranges defined - 05/30/06 06:12 AM
Actually what you said makes perfect sense to me (I think). But just to make sure I get it exactly, I want to go through an example using the fuel table. Let's just use:

ynorm_fuel_base_table
1.9999695 7.000
0.8500061 7.000
0.1499939 0.000
0.0000000 0.000
0.0000000 0.000
0.0000000 0.000

and xnorm_fuel_16
16383.750 9.000
7500.000 9.000
6500.000 8.000
4000.000 3.000
1000.000 0.000
0.000 0.000

If I understand correctly, if my car is at a load of .8500061 and an RPM of 6500, the AFR value should be whatever is in row 7 column 8 of the base_fuel_table. What I don't understand is which normalizer table is used and when. What I'm talking about are xnorm_fuel_16, xnorm_fuel 18, ynorm_fuel_15, and ynorm_fuel_base_table. The info in Advantage doesnt really tell me why there are all of these different tables instead of just one ynorm and one xnorm.

I still can't figure out why my car occasionally stumbles (sudden power drop spike) during acceleration under partial throttle. I doubt it's because of the vacuum leak because it seems to happen right at the same RPMs every time (right around 2300 RPMs and again around 2800 RPMs. I don't think it could be a misfire either for the same reason, although it does feel like a misfire. What do you suggest I start playing with on my PRP to try to cure this?

As for the IMRC, I gutted it all out of the LIM, and turned it off in the PRP software, so there's no more tables for controlling anything having to do with IMRC. I did add fuel and spark advance below 3000 RPM (~12-14* more advance added than above 3000 RPM) in the base knock table (and maxed out the maximum allowed spark table so I don't have to keep changing it also) and I still feel a jump in power right at 3000 RPM. I'm guessing there's something else I need to change that I've overlooked, but I haven't been able to find it yet. BTW, if it makes any difference, the car does run a lot smoother, albeit less powerful, when the A/C is on. Even the idle is almost always smooth and right where it should be when the A/C is on.

I also tried to raise my rev limiter to 7500, but that didn't work either. I raised several different values having to do with the rev limiter but it still gets stopped at 6750 RPMs

The only other problem I'm having is the car is occasionally "jerky" when coasting down with my foot off the gas.
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Re: How to use PRP, ranges defined - 05/30/06 01:49 PM
Okay, all of those things are fixable I think.

Lets start with the Max Allowed table:
No NO and HELL no on raising it up all the way.
Between me and you....the max allowed table is kind of the central table that all the spark timing hovers around.
All of the other tables (except for a one or two) are used in conjunction with the max allowed table. ACT and ECT tables are just multipliers of the max allowed spark value in a particular cell.
So if at 0.50 load and 3000 rpm you have a value of about 20* max allowed advance, the ACT at loads similar to that may introduce an 10% increase in spark at that point based on cool temps, or th ECT may also do the same. Then there is the IMRC which will add more spark at certain loads above the opening point. It ALSO works in conjuction with the max spark allowed table as a base table.

When I was planning out my Max allowed table, I started with stock, increased the load range on the Axes since I was forced induction to about .99 and then put limitations that I felt would be safe in the loads above 0.6 to 0.7 Then I let the computer actually add any timing to those maximum values based on ACT ECT and as long as it didn't go above my maximum desired timing. For example, I didin't want to go above 23* on a cool day boosting 7-8psi, so I did a rough calculation on the timing advance for cells above 0.85 at the appropriate RPM to determine the maximum it could hit, then adjusted the max allowed table accordingly.

As far as the MBT spark tables, they do absolutely NOTHING for advance but after I worked out the timing tables to my liking I adjusted them downward by about the same percentages to keep the computers torque calculations in-line.

Most importantly, I used a OBD II scanner, AND The XCAL2 to datalog while driving around to see what the values and loads were at cruise, idle, and full throttle. After about 5 days I had a good tune and felt comfortable to raise the boost after confirming with the wideband that the AFR was as expected.

So leave everything close to stock...then remove the IMRC, then test drive. If the stuttering goes away, then you know you had too much timing.
Don't rely on the knock sensor tables to appropriately pull back timing as protection. They don't work all that good and you will be losing power in some cases before you actually experience predetonation.

Leave the stock settings mostly alone until you get it driving fine with no codes, doing only what is necessary to correct for intake system changes and other mods. Then change only one major variable at a time, such as increasing the maximum timing at max load, all by 10%, or changing only the last 1000 rpm by some amount...you know what I mean? Address specific problems first. Have an overall plan of attack on what you want out of your car.
or change the priority order once you know what you want.

I have found that a timing change of just 2* made the difference between a rough sounding engine at high rpm windout to a smooth sounding engine. I mean at 6000 rpm and spinning toward 7000 rpm, you can hear little things that are hard to describe. If you go slowly and increase till you get these audible changes, then pull back a little, you can get a 90% solution before you ever hit the dyno.
You can see, I was able to roll into the dyno in Montgomery and with NO required tuning changes after the first run. I was able to raise the power to the wheels from about 310 up to 355 in 3 or 4 dyno runs just by turning up the boost....at least until the soft wastegate spring began opening on its own. This is the power of the EEC-V adjustable PCM, getting the settings basically right and letting the computer adjust as it needs to, to meet those settings.

Also, don't underestimate the power of a bad set of ingition components to introduce misfires and stuttering.
At 40K miles on my car I once spent over $500 "modding things" because I felt the stuttering must have been caused by a mod I did on the 3L. 3 months later with a gradually worsening problem, I finally gave up and bought a new pair of plug wires to replace the "visually apparently New" stock wires, and the problem was gone.
It was my greatest shame of misdiagnosis I've done in many many years. However it taught me a lesson and I always go back to basics before I suspect something complicated when diagnosing a problem.

So fix what needs to be fixed first; start with stock and go incrementally till everything runs right, THEN optimize with a controlled set of variables, never changing more than once component at a time if possible to limit the possible problems.

Sorry for the length....there's different points in different paragraphs.
Posted By: fordrule Re: How to use PRP, ranges defined - 06/08/06 12:58 PM
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