Upgrading my engine - CEG Archives

Originally posted by MadMerc97:

Originally posted by LocoGSR:
Turbo?

+1
Do it so I can copy you and make it better.

...but it's an automatic.....

I'll sell you my V6 MTX to help fund my Zetec build....

Why you guys just don't buy the FRPP head with stage 3 cams...
It's almost prefect whens you get it out of the box.

Quote:

Why you guys just don't buy the FRPP head with stage 3 cams...
It's almost prefect whens you get it out of the box.

I did(almost crower stg II turbos instead) and it's not.

Originally posted by TwoTwinTours:

Originally posted by MadMerc97:

Originally posted by LocoGSR:
Turbo?

+1
Do it so I can copy you and make it better.

...but it's an automatic.....

I'll sell you my V6 MTX to help fund my Zetec build....

Why does everyone tell me this? I've driven plenty of turbo automatics that were really cool, like my friends' Jetta GLI ATX. That isn't a high-dollar car, and it's ATX can deal with it...

what's ya'lls aversion to turbo automatics? I think it would make my car unique...

Just think about Hector with his ATX S/C...

Why sell it WHY?!?!

Exactly. If Hector could do it with a blower, I can do it with a turbo. Now I'm pumped up. So what donor car would yield a turbine suitable for my car? maybe the one from the MB 300TD? Or what about from an old audi or mitsubishi? Most of the process would have to be fabbed up custom-like. I guess I could replace the catalytic converter with the turbo and it's piping. I could put a high-flow one down after the turbine. That position would keep the turbine cooled down by the cooling fan and air flowing in through the grill. It would also simplify the running of lines to an external oil cooler. Then, after removing my worthless AC components, the free space freed up would allow for the installation of an intercooler and intake piping. Of course I would need to upgrade the fuel delivery systems and change the computer to operate correctly with boost as well. Speaking of boost, I wouldn't plan too much, as in under 8 psi. I would like to keep upgrades to the valvetrain to a minimum, but if it has to be done, I don't really mind.

I don't think the guys over in F/I would even talk to me about this kind of project so I'll try it here. What do you guys think about my rough thesis of what I want to do?

CD4E + 8psi of low RPM high tourque boost = Dead CD4E

Originally posted by ohsigmachi:
CD4E + 8psi of low RPM high tourque boost = Dead CD4E

I said less than 8 psi. I believe Hector was putting out about that much boost and his didn't die. Peculiar...

One thing I recommmend is put in ALL ROYAL PURPLE fluids ATF fluid, oil, antifreeze coolant everything!!!!
in case all of you didnt know.

This isn't to rain on anybody's parade, but....
The Zetec is just not meant for N/A applications.
Build a turbo or s/c setup.
On FocalJet the major modded Zetecs hit 170-180wHP.
That includes; head, cams, increased compression, intake, exhaust, exhaust header, udp, intake manifold, custom tuning, larger TB and MAF.
But a reasonable turbo will put down 220wHP no problem (on crap 87 pump gas) and costs 1/3 the price.
If you want to go N/A just to go N/A, more power to you.
But if you really want a decently fast car, FI is the only way to go.

I'm still thinking about that carbureted idea. Hey sleeper, if I did that carb setup, what kind of Computer changes would I need to do? could I eliminate the ECU completely?
I would love to do that idea.

Quote:

Originally posted by ohsigmachi:
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CD4E + 8psi of low RPM high tourque boost = Dead CD4E

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I said less than 8 psi. I believe Hector was putting out about that much boost and his didn't die. Peculiar...

I was refering to a smallish turbo setup thats yields a high tourqe #, low in the RPM range. Hector ran an SC which gives the vast majority of its gains in the upper ranges and doesn't produce near the tourque of a turbo.

Once more with feeling "high tourque @low RPM + CD4E = dead CD4E"

If you insist on TCing an ATX I would suggest a trans cooler at a bare minimum.

well no duh. of course I would do a Trans Cooler. I really am leaning more towards the Carbbed idea tho. It's cheaper and yields better gains.

Where is Seawulf when we need him...

Quote:

Where is Seawulf when we need him...

Who here needs him?

We need him for reliable info on F/I Zetec.

just search here and on NECO, he's pretty much posted everything he's ever observed.

Well tell him to get back over here.

Por QUE SEAWULF!?!

Here's some info for F/I

Individual throttle body (ITB) setup would be the best n/a setup for the Zetec.
yes with a carb you can dleete the ECU, but unlessyou know what you are doing, this is a bad idea.
Besides ITB will net the most gains.

Originally posted by LocoGSR:
Turbo?

N/A than turbo is my plan, rather than stock to turbo. I figured I'd get as much hp out of the engine as posible first, than ad the turbo

It will keep me from have to make the other upgrades later down the line.

Besides I'm in no hurry to get done with the car.

Ok, so how do I go about accomplishing this. I literally have two TBs for my car already(one new one on the car, and the old one in a box.) What kind of intake manifold could I pick up for this kind of setup? I would need two more TBs right? And then three split-off cables to run to the other throttle-bodies. I'm kinda likin' this idea sleeper! Tell me more.

Edit:

I just thought of something. Let's say I somehow get an intake manifold that allows me to run my two TBs horizontally. I would need an intake plenum(possibly just an insulated box with in inlet the corresponding diameter to the stock accordian tubing) to retain throttle response right? Well from there on couldn't I just use the stock intake tubing? I've already made my own custom short ram-style intake out of the original stuff. Other than needing that intake manifold and the extra cable, this sounds like it'd be a pretty easy way to gain performance...

Wait, what about the IAC valve? nuts... how would I replicate the effect? Could I just bolt it to the new intake plenum? I actually have two of those too...

Also, would the stock ECU be able to compensate for the changes or would I need to upgrade a bit? Same question for fuel injectors...

Quick Q here...

I'm starting buildup of my Zetec in the spring. MOney is a factor. I was going to SC it off the bat,but the kit is almost $3k. I could build the motor NA off the bat and still make it pretty quick,and then later on bolt on the SC after I've made sure the motor is running well and sorted out all the gremlins.

What would you do? Build it NA to make sure it works,then go SC later when I can have more $$$ or go all out and go SC right away?

Buy this turbo with the internal wastegate.
Put this on it
Use this instead of an intercooler
This BPV

While you're buying all this pick up some couplers and alum intake tubing. Find an exhaust shop that will fab up the flange to mount the turbo to the stock manifold and the down pipe. Rig up the intake tubing. Find a dyno shop with Superchips or Diablo software and get it tuned up. Keep it under 180 at the wheels and you'll probaly be able to drive it until you kill the clutch or 3rd gear synchro.

You can upgrade over time with bigger exhaust, custom exhaust manifold, intercooler, stronger shortblock, tricked out head/valvetrain, and then a bigger turbo.

Originally posted by WildChild:

Originally posted by LocoGSR:
Turbo?

N/A than turbo is my plan, rather than stock to turbo. I figured I'd get as much hp out of the engine as posible first, than ad the turbo It will keep me from have to make the other upgrades later down the line.

Besides I'm in no hurry to get done with the car.

To get as much power as you can N/A = high compression

High compression + turbo (boost) = bad times

You would only be able to run small amount of boost. If you are going to go turbo build the engine for turbo.

This will save you a lot of time and money in the end.

OK. All of my plans for this car have just flown out the window. I have good news! My Uncles are giving me an old Ford Maverick and my Uncle Buzzes old Mach 1's transmission. Sweetness! Uncle John said all I have to do is pick it up!

Now a question on that! Should I go 302 or something else? I would have liked that old 351C my uncle Buzz had, but it turns out that John sold it, and it's 4-barrel heads(Uber-rare) to a kid rebuilding a Mach 1 down his street. I'm leaning more towards 302 than modular. The Modular's fine and all, but the 302 would give me a better aftermarket.

Any suggestions?

P.S. Oh yes, there will be hood scoops...

I would just like to point out automatic transmissions durability versus a standard. How many sub 10 second cars run a stick? It's a 90/10 situation. That's because autos shift quicker , last longer and don't miss gates when they go gear to gear when prepped properly. They take human error out of the loop for the most part. As for superchargers being worthless down low? Umm, Apparantly you never looked at a dyno - Turbos make NOTHING until they spool. ZERO. Where is all of this torque your talking about? A supercharger makes power from idle to redline. Most turbos don't spool until 2500 rpm(I WOULDN'T CALL THAT DOWN LOW). The power increases are similar. It's just that with a turbo it just comes in in one big lump when the turbo spools instead of continuously and seamlessly like a supercharger. So you get a big pull all at once with a turbo, with a charger the power comes on more subtley and is already making the same amount of power the turbo will be at the same rpm. Much more linear. Linear power is good.

Originally posted by evocontour:
I would just like to point out automatic transmissions durability versus a standard. How many sub 10 second cars run a stick? It's a 90/10 situation. That's because autos shift quicker , last longer and don't miss gates when they go gear to gear when prepped properly. They take human error out of the loop for the most part. As for superchargers being worthless down low? Umm, Apparantly you never looked at a dyno - Turbos make NOTHING until they spool. ZERO. Where is all of this torque your talking about? A supercharger makes power from idle to redline. Most turbos don't spool until 2500 rpm(I WOULDN'T CALL THAT DOWN LOW). The power increases are similar. It's just that with a turbo it just comes in in one big lump when the turbo spools instead of continuously and seamlessly like a supercharger. So you get a big pull all at once with a turbo, with a charger the power comes on more subtley and is already making the same amount of power the turbo will be at the same rpm. Much more linear. Linear power is good.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this big pile of ignorance, but I'll try.

1) I wasn't saying that ALL auto trannys were not able to handle big power, My brother runs an AOD in is 1000+ hp "thumper" turbocharged Cobra. The ATX in the Contour is a pretty poorly engineered piece of poo that is poorly cooled, and has weak clutch packs.

2) the SC thing I'm pretty much not going to touch other than to say that every dyno that's ever been posted of a Turbo'd zetec and a Supercharged zetec says I'm right.

The End.

Well put

I do think though that the MTX responds better to a turbo. Although, I have never been in a turbocharged ATX anything so I couldn't make a good comparison on that. Take that back, I have drove a few 3speed ATX turbo go karts

I will be doing a Turbo setup for my car, and hope to get it done by Spring Zing depending on funds.

Originally posted by WildChild:
Well put

I do think though that the MTX responds better to a turbo. Although, I have never been in a turbocharged ATX anything so I couldn't make a good comparison on that. Take that back, I have drove a few 3speed ATX turbo go karts

I will be doing a Turbo setup for my car, and hope to get it done by Spring Zing depending on funds.

well not a direct comparison but...

when i did a 3L swap with the atx it was fun. when i swapped it to mtx its soooo much better, alot more powerful too. the atx sucks up alot of the power

Looks like my car will be out on friday, can't wait. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of gains i will get with the focus head and cams.

The mechanic sugested that I wait on installing the fuel upgrades(rail/injectors/press reg) until I get a peformance pump to replace the stock pump.

Does anyone have recomendations for a pump?

255lph walbro

Originally posted by evocontour:
Most turbos don't spool until 2500 rpm(I WOULDN'T CALL THAT DOWN LOW). The power increases are similar.

True most turbos don't spool till 2500rpm or higher BUT, when you're trying to go fast, are you under 2500rpm? So it doesn't really matter then that there isn't much very low end power (no traction is bad anyways). If anything, could just mean better gas mileage.

The typical power increases are not similar at all for zetecs.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
255lph walbro

thats overkill. ill be running that pump when im done with my turbo 3L

stock pump should be sufficient for his mods (it was for my 3L hybrid) but IIRC theres a smaller walbro that would be a better upgrade for him

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
255lph walbro

Is it the external in line or the in tank pump that I need?

Originally posted by Russell-3L:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
255lph walbro

thats overkill. ill be running that pump when im done with my turbo 3L

stock pump should be sufficient for his mods (it was for my 3L hybrid) but IIRC theres a smaller walbro that would be a better upgrade for him

I didn't even look at his mods.

I think with a 200 shot of nitrous (progressive stages of course), he'll need it. That's what I'd do.

Yeah, there's a smaller one.

And they're in tank.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/

This site has a few different options for pumps including Vortech, Walbro, Comptech, Aeromotive, etc. What do you think?

Thought I would put in an update, car should be out of the shop by this weekend, but still needs a few things done like 65mm throttle install, fuel pump change, chip install.

head with exhaust manifold

Heres a closer look at one of the cams

Drivers side, not much there but its so clean right now

The adjustable cam gears weren't in stock when I tried to purchase them before the car went into the shop, so I'll have them installed later

Intake side; the Focus intake manifold will have to be used along with a Focus fuel rail. I used a BDL rail with 30# injectors. The rail will require a adjustable regulator 2bolt style, for the fuel return system to work, and longer fuel lines will have to be used since the regulator sits on the pasenger side and not the drivers side fo the fuel rail.

I think this is the EGR valve

(I could be wrong), or whatever it is called will have to be modified. On the Focus intake its horizontal and on the Tour intake its vertical, so I'm having them cut swaped out and rewelded on. Hopefully it comes out good, I'll get picks of it once its finished. You can see the rail and injectors in there also.

Focus valve on right, Contour valve on left

all that work...and the stock exhaust manifold?

I'm planning on doing a turbo setup, so I'm waiting to change out my exhaust manifold for the turbo install. There was no reason for me to spend the extra money on a focus exh manifold, when I have to have a turbo manifold custom made to fit.

Originally posted by WildChild:
I'm planning on doing a turbo setup, so I'm waiting to change out my exhaust manifold for the turbo install. There was no reason for me to spend the extra money on a focus exh manifold, when I have to have a turbo manifold custom made to fit.

makes sense...but your not planning on doing that for a couple of years? why not buy a cougar header?

Originally posted by tour96se:

Originally posted by WildChild:
I'm planning on doing a turbo setup, so I'm waiting to change out my exhaust manifold for the turbo install. There was no reason for me to spend the extra money on a focus exh manifold, when I have to have a turbo manifold custom made to fit.

makes sense...but your not planning on doing that for a couple of years? why not buy a cougar header?

If you're waitin' a couple years for the turbo, a header can be resold later - prolly for near what you pay for it.

I just paid $278 delivered for one.

Originally posted by TourDeForce:

Originally posted by tour96se:

Originally posted by WildChild:
I'm planning on doing a turbo setup, so I'm waiting to change out my exhaust manifold for the turbo install. There was no reason for me to spend the extra money on a focus exh manifold, when I have to have a turbo manifold custom made to fit.

makes sense...but your not planning on doing that for a couple of years? why not buy a cougar header?

If you're waitin' a couple years for the turbo, a header can be resold later - prolly for near what you pay for it.

I just paid $278 delivered for one.

When did I say I was waiting a couple of years? I'm trying to finsh this project by Spring Zing 06, so I can drive up and STUNT

on the other pre-98's up there, and show them how we do it in the West(SOCAL that is).

A header would make no sense if he was going turbo. The build quality would definitely come into play as far as longevity. I would stick would the stock manifold too.

Originally posted by LocoGSR:
A header would make no sense if he was going turbo. The build quality would definitely come into play as far as longevity. I would stick would the stock manifold too.

Thank you, someone out there agrees with. Besides the turbo header will have a better flow rate due to the purpose of its design versus any other.