ok you might recall that I installed a bigger MAF claimed gains and most of you said no way. Well I replaced my injectors today with 30lb ford injectors, because my factory ones were having trouble with the increased pressure necessary because of the bigger MAF. So I, without thinking, decided that I could remove the rest of the restriction in the bigger MAF since the bigger injectors would make up for the air not being measured. Well they helped but I should have calibrated the fuel pressure with the new injectors before I modified the MAF any, thats the without thinking part. So now the car would only run lean so I figured I could extend the wires holding the MAF sensor resistors so that the resistors where in the middle of the MAF therefor measuring more airflow. Well I found out that the wires supporting the resistors won't solder. So I put the car back together with the resistors removed from the MAF and started it up. It idled at 2k rpm then went to 1k rpm after it warmed up a little. Heres the wierd part, it now pulls much stronger even till redline, I even had my bro in law ride along and he noticed the change as well. So basically I have no MAF but it is definately faster and doesn't go lean, in fact the O2 gauge reacts instantly where before there was a slight delay between flooring it and it going rich. Yes I know the O2 sensors aren't very accurate so get over it already. Anyway why the gain?
Originally posted by 96mercury:
ok you might recall that I installed a bigger MAF claimed gains and most of you said no way. Well I replaced my injectors today with 30lb ford injectors, because my factory ones were having trouble with the increased pressure necessary because of the bigger MAF. So I, without thinking, decided that I could remove the rest of the restriction in the bigger MAF since the bigger injectors would make up for the air not being measured. Well they helped but I should have calibrated the fuel pressure with the new injectors before I modified the MAF any, thats the without thinking part. So now the car would only run lean so I figured I could extend the wires holding the MAF sensor resistors so that the resistors where in the middle of the MAF therefor measuring more airflow. Well I found out that the wires supporting the resistors won't solder. So I put the car back together with the resistors removed from the MAF and started it up. It idled at 2k rpm then went to 1k rpm after it warmed up a little. Heres the wierd part, it now pulls much stronger even till redline, I even had my bro in law ride along and he noticed the change as well. So basically I have no MAF but it is definately faster and doesn't go lean, in fact the O2 gauge reacts instantly where before there was a slight delay between flooring it and it going rich. Yes I know the O2 sensors aren't very accurate so get over it already. Anyway why the gain?
So get over it?
Why'd you post this crap anyway? I haven't decided whether you posted it because you are proud of yourself, unsure and want advice, or what?
So let me assume you put it on to seek reassurance...
Then let me say that was very foolish to cut apart your maf and try to move the resistors. They are welded on, not soldered. They are calibrated at a certain distance with those special metal posts and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do to change that. EVEN PRO-M won't move the resistors because the MAF is useless afterwards.
So as to it pulling stronger: It is probably running leaner, that will make your car pull stronger. It is very possible that you are running close to detonation but you could be lucky and the car is injecting a precalculated amount of fuel when you have a non-functional MAF.
You should put a new MAF in. Don't worry about the restriction of the center post because it isn't a restriction! It won't hurt one bit.
Then buy an SAFC or eManage and tune in your Air Fuel. That way you have reprogramability.
Break down and do the $75-$150 for 2-3 dyno runs with some A/F data and tune the car in.
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by 96mercury:
ok you might recall that I installed a bigger MAF claimed gains and most of you said no way. Well I replaced my injectors today with 30lb ford injectors, because my factory ones were having trouble with the increased pressure necessary because of the bigger MAF. So I, without thinking, decided that I could remove the rest of the restriction in the bigger MAF since the bigger injectors would make up for the air not being measured. Well they helped but I should have calibrated the fuel pressure with the new injectors before I modified the MAF any, thats the without thinking part. So now the car would only run lean so I figured I could extend the wires holding the MAF sensor resistors so that the resistors where in the middle of the MAF therefor measuring more airflow. Well I found out that the wires supporting the resistors won't solder. So I put the car back together with the resistors removed from the MAF and started it up. It idled at 2k rpm then went to 1k rpm after it warmed up a little. Heres the wierd part, it now pulls much stronger even till redline, I even had my bro in law ride along and he noticed the change as well. So basically I have no MAF but it is definately faster and doesn't go lean, in fact the O2 gauge reacts instantly where before there was a slight delay between flooring it and it going rich. Yes I know the O2 sensors aren't very accurate so get over it already. Anyway why the gain?
So get over it?
Why'd you post this crap anyway? I haven't decided whether you posted it because you are proud of yourself, unsure and want advice, or what?
So let me assume you put it on to seek reassurance...
Then let me say that was very foolish to cut apart your maf and try to move the resistors. They are welded on, not soldered. They are calibrated at a certain distance with those special metal posts and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do to change that. EVEN PRO-M won't move the resistors because the MAF is useless afterwards.
So as to it pulling stronger: It is probably running leaner, that will make your car pull stronger. It is very possible that you are running close to detonation but you could be lucky and the car is injecting a precalculated amount of fuel when you have a non-functional MAF.
You should put a new MAF in. Don't worry about the restriction of the center post because it isn't a restriction! It won't hurt one bit.
Then buy an SAFC or eManage and tune in your Air Fuel. That way you have reprogramability.
Break down and do the $75-$150 for 2-3 dyno runs with some A/F data and tune the car in.
Not to start anything big here but that is even if he is telling the truth.
For example he says he did ATX-MTX swap but didnt swap the engines, which is impossible because MTX engines have a pilot bearing on the end of the crankshaft for the clutch.
So he couldnt have swapped the trans. and not the engine as well.
So who really knows with this guy.
UM actually I am telling the truth HITMANI the engines are the same dude the bearing that you are talking about goes in the flywheel. Do a search using my username in the transaxle forumn for the last 6 months. I already posted pics a while ago when my clutch went out and I compared the factory vs stock. Besides why lie about the swap, are you jeolous because I have or what? No wonder people leave this board its BS like this! You want pics fine
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid151/pce32299f8203b73add32c9a90568cb6c/f5d037ef.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid153/p34ad992fceac8feb09e210d57848ce3c/f58a43cd.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid154/p0a2d0ffa1103591bccf7df49806403fc/f57625a4.jpg.thumb.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid154/p82305e941e3d6e6912ded0a16dad83ca/f57625a0.jpgAnyway I was looking for answers and support because it didn't make sense why it responded like it did. I am gonna have to get another MAF now but thats only $20 at the J yard. I am actually offended that when I ask for help some people go off and call stuff "crap" ect. You know what its pessimistic attitudes like this that make it amazing that we have the technology we have today. I just don't understand what your problem is seriously! So what it didn't hurt, won't cost much to undo and I learned quite a bit from the experience and education is key! So anyway yeah I am definately gonna need to spend the money on a few dyno runs, there is one at my school but they don't really know how to use it to tune. BTW I post this stuff so that other people who have questions can search and find out if it works or not.
Don't worry about hitman. He's not the smartest tree that's fallen off the nut.
Thanks Kermit I appreciate the support
Yeah and I meant to say factory compared tp spec stage 1.
Well, when my origional engine blew, the replacement was from a ATX. The difference was the bellhousing guide studs were different and had to be swapped, I think a little hammer and chisle action. And the crank position sensor housing was different and needed to be swapped. Took one bolt but if you'd already put the engine in the car you had to pull the engine and take off the clutch to get at that one bolt. Other than that it was a easy swap.
I am still leary about messing with the MAF and injectors without a chip. But if you do decide to go electronic, don't just buy the Emanage or AFC. For more money you can guy the SCT tuner software and reprogram your whole ECU not just your AF. It costs twice as much as the AFC, and you'll need a computer to hook it up to, but it controlls timing and can get rid of certain check engine lights and move the rev limiter and speed limiter. Worth the extra dough.
The ECU will learn around the S-AFC and any other "signal changing" electronics.
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
The ECU will learn around the S-AFC and any other "signal changing" electronics.
?????? i've never heard that about the safc...if thats true wouldnt it learn around the chip aswell?? since it changes signals
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
The ECU will learn around the S-AFC and any other "signal changing" electronics.
?????? i've never heard that about the safc...if thats true wouldnt it learn around the chip aswell?? since it changes signals
Chip actually plugs onto the processor. The SAFC doesn't. 
The S-AFC (and MAFturburner and MAF Calibrators and anything that alters signals to the ECU) will eventually be leanered around by the ECU beacuase the ECU will see that it is being fed false signals.
A chip is an EEPROM that plugs into the ECU that replaces the ROM in the ECU.
aha.....i see...how "long" does it take for that to happen?? what if you reset the ecu from time to time??? wish i would've known that before i droped the 250 on the safc.....
Originally posted by SleeperZ:
The ECU will learn around the S-AFC and any other "signal changing" electronics.
That's not entirely true. This stuff has been discussed ad nauseum in the 3L and forced induction forums. Most of the time these discussions are there because bigger mods require more fixes.
Anyway, the settings made at full throttle are not tuned out because there is no O2 sensor input at that time.
The settings made at part throttle and cruise do have O2 sensor input and they will be adjusted a bit.
But they DON'T tune out the adjustments from the SAFC.
The pcm will just tune the car back to a basic stoichiometric condition. IF you did something drastic like add bigger injectors, the pcm is only going to trim back so far. If you alter the airflow signal to a percentage scaled off the original, then it is a lot closer and the pcm will use the O2 signal to "fine tune" the air fuel.
Again, there is no full throttle adjustment of the SAFC.
There part throttle adjustments are just to fine tune the A/F which you would want the pcm to do anyway since for efficiency.
Now, back to the cut up maf. I don't have a problem cutting out a maf to do an experiment, but you didn't do any qualitative analysis other than say 'my butt dyno is better' and 'so is my friends'
That would still be excusable if you weren't on a forum that has had everyone, INCLUDING me, cut mafs a long time ago to see what would happen and found out that it sucks and is dangerous.
I at least used an eManage to tune in the cut maf and I didn't cut the whole sampling tube out.
If you had searched, you wouldn't be out the extra $20 right now. If you were more unlucky, you might be spending a thousand dollars replacing internal engine parts when the car went lean under full throttle.
Then to post it almost like you thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread....I thought that was crap.
I don't think you are crap, nor the act of experimenting and learning. Just that this is already well covered and you don't need to try and reinvent the fricking wheel. Learn from other peoples mistakes and go on and make some NEW mistakes. THAT is why we have innovations and new technology....people BUILD on the knowledge that other people already put their effort into.
Sorry about the soap box speach, but after your soap box speach, I felt I had to set the record straight so you don't go off playing the Martyr like everyone is out to get you, instead of taking the constructive criticism for what it's worth.
warmonger
you should be a motovational speaker!!!
Thanks for coming in and setting the record straight.
The funny thing is I didn't think it was that great, I was just really surprized that it was faster. That wasn't a soap box speach. I just thought your comments were completely uncalled for and quite rude. Think about it you called me "dummy of the day" there is no explanation for that except the fact that you were being a jerk. But anyway thanks for trying to set it straight:)
I re-read the 1st post and I am confused...
Do you not have a functioning MAF?
If you do, forgrt the following.
If you don't, then....
If the car has no MAF doesn't it go into limp mode?
Doesn't limp mode cause the car to run rich and add timing?
Wouldn't this cause a loss in power?
Are you still using the Duratec MAF?
When you change the airflow (like bigger MAF or alter the MAF) is the fuel pressure setting the only thing your changing to adjust A/F ratio?
Well....ok. You're right, I shouldn't have labeled the post that way. Sorry, I guess I was in an aggressive mood and could have left that out. However, everything else I wrote still stands.
I still have the duratec MAF and its still conected but the actual sensor part of the MAF is gone. I would think the car would go into limp mode yes. I got bigger injectors and adjusted the fuel pressure. I need a new MAF and I am wondering if the previous one was bad or it might just be time to dyno the thing and tune it that way.
So with no MAF your car has better performance?
So only your ECU doesn't go into limp mode when it has no MAF?
So only your car is able to perform better when the ECU has no emeasurement of incomeing air?
And you wonder why people doubt what you say?
Yeah Sleeperz now that you put it that way, no wonder indeed
I am wondering if maybe I have been running lean with both the zetec MAF and duratec MAF and now its faster because it is in limp mode and its finally rich enough. Any way I read the plugs tonight and they look good not too rich or lean. I need another MAF too and have been wondering if there is any other way to calbrate them for the correct amount of air without a chip?
Originally posted by 96mercury:
...have been wondering if there is any other way to calbrate them for the correct amount of air without a chip?
Like I said:
eManage
SAFC
I had a SAFC on my turbo neon, very nice, but $$$$ That would probably do the trick.
Originally posted by 96mercury:
I had a SAFC on my turbo neon, very nice, but $$$$ That would probably do the trick.
they arent too much..i picked one up on ebay for around 245.00...compared to about 400 or so on apex's' site....have yet to install it though
ok I know that my old neon is in the same town that I live in as I have seen it before but I can't remember the address of the place. If I knew the address I could see if it still runs and if it doesn't offer the guy some cash for the SAFC. Anyone know a way I could get the plates run and find the address for free in Oregon?
Ok I bought a used SAFC2 today for $250, no scratches or anything, the guy upgraded to a bigger turbo setup and needed a completely new engine management system. So I am gonna go install it shortly and when I have enough $$$ I am going to get it tuned on a dyno with a wideband O2.
Ok I got a baseline program setting. This thing is awesome
I should have gotten it a long time ago. Plus I installed it in the driver's side glovebox so it is out of view for thieves. I will need to get it professionally tuned on a dyno but even as it is right now it is faster then it was and no mor CEL or any codes. I think what I am really feeling is the gains from the motor work I did a few months ago. Anyway smiles all around and thanks for suggesting the SAFC. The only strange thing is that according to the SAFC my tach is showing about 300rpms more then the SAFC. Any ideas why this might be?
so is everything running safely?
yeah its running great but the tach on the safc is off and it becomes increasingly off as the rpms go up. So it makes it kinda hard to set. Anyone know why the tach would be so far off? At redline it reads just under 4k rpm while the factory tach reads 7250.
I am not familiar with the SAFC, but is it correctly configured for a four cylinder engine as opposed to a six cylinder engine?
It werks with any car (basically).
Ziyad that was exactly the problem, I set it to 4 cylinder but I just checked it and it was on 6cyl. Plus my NE points moved around. Not sure why I must not have saved the settings or something? Anyway the tach works fine now.
configured. oops.
OK I have a lean condition around 3000-4000rpm. Thats with the fuel enrichment at 50%. So is it time for bigger injectors again? I found out the ones that I was told were 30lb injectors are only 19lb, stupid liars. Isn't factory 16lb? So yeah not much of a gain there.
Originally posted by 96mercury:
OK I have a lean condition around 3000-4000rpm. Thats with the fuel enrichment at 50%. So is it time for bigger injectors again? I found out the ones that I was told were 30lb injectors are only 19lb, stupid liars. Isn't factory 16lb? So yeah not much of a gain there.
Maybe your ECU is trying to compesate for the extra fuel you are giving it.
yeah maybe, I wondered about that so I tried leaning it out and it just made it worse. I am thinking that that RPM range is when the engine breaths most efficiently and that is why it needs extra fuel right then?
Did you replace the cut MAF yet? That will definitely cause a poor signal if the maf is still your modified MAF. I found that on on my cut maf too. You have to spend many hours with an emanage to come up with a program that will actually work for a MAF, and the emanage is significantly more powerful than an SAFC!
Swap out the maf if you haven't done so. If you have already replaced the maf then put your stock injectors back in for the time being until you get everything dialed in.
When you get to the dyno you can use the A/F data to determine whether you need the 19's or not.
If you do it this way then you will minimize the number of changes and you will be able to squeeze the most power out of your engine.