DMD Installed, Impressions.

Originally posted by dubkatz:
umm you might try knocking on some wood, like your head

ROTFLMAO!!! Classic & true!

---

Didn't feel a difference. Bullsh^t! It's night and day different on any MTX even changing from the stock damper to a DMD. Much less from an ultra light Non-Dampered pulley to a DMD.

Well balanced UDP.

That has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

I must agree with Demon.
The switch from a UDP to DMD was absolutely astonishing.
So much smoother over 4k, I couldn't believe it.
Almost felt like a completely different car.
None of that shaking, vibrating, mess that I used to feel.

huge different imho.

LOL this is funny , while he wrote this reply on the DMD he looked at me and said QUOTE" i bet you anything DemonSvt will say something about this" ..

Since im the one who installed this on his car, it was done correctly as i have the DMD on mine as well .

And after the part was installed we jumped on the highway and did a test run and he could feel the power loss.

If you compare the weight to the UDP you'll understand .

Since his car flat out "screams" and has the fidanza, sho shop Y pipe and so many other mods, he can feel a slight power loss EASY !

Even when i installed this on my car i had to think about it for a while if it really helped anything or not ,its such a slight diffrence you completely forget about it .

i don't think anyone is doubting the slight power loss....if any. it may not rev faster...however it does rev a lot smoother. that's the difference that I experienced.

i did notice that with the DMD, it did rev a little slower....but its nothing for me to complain about.

I too have a lot of mods to my car. (don't have the fidanza/clutch/quaife combo in yet).

Originally posted by --CitatioN10--:
LOL this is funny , while he wrote this reply on the DMD he looked at me and said QUOTE" i bet you anything DemonSvt will say something about this" ..

You can say that about any post, Demon pretty much comments on everything technical on our cars.

So will I notice a difference on my ATX when I get it?

Just a note from a Mondeo Owner, I installed my DMD last November and I noticed a massive difference even at low rev's much more refined and smooth. Seems to have much better transistion between 12 and 24 valves also..

Other than feeling like I added 4 15's and a massive sub box in my trunk anyone want to buy it cheap, been on the car 30 miles max, I will be taking it off today. I saw a post sometime ago where someone lost 9FWHP and I believe it now.
As far as the idiot comments "knock on wood" "his head" I was laughing because I knew it was already coming and for the most part who, not a problem for me though, it's funny no one ever does say anything in front of anyones face.

If I wanted to buy the smoothest car without any road feel I'd buy a Lexus.
What in the world does the PCM have to do with a Pulley, that's about the funniest thing I ever heard. So if I change my struts and spring I better reset my computer then to right.
I never said the DMD was not smoother, I... (I) can't deal with the power loss and the inability to get to my cars sweet spot quicker.

Eric

how much, do you want?

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
I saw a post sometime ago where someone lost 9FWHP and I believe it now.
(I) can't deal with the power loss and the inability to get to my cars sweet spot quicker.

Eric

Here is documentation that DMD does not lose power over stock damper. Whether it GAINED 2 HP over stock, as the dyno shows is unknown as this is within range of dyno variability. Now, you are comparing DMD to UDP. It is possible that you lost power here. However, the LARGEST gain yet posted on a Contour from a UDP is 5 HP (and several have been in the 2-4 HP range). So assuming best case UDP gain (5HP) and wost case DMD (0 HP) you are down 5 HP and about 4lb/ft. This is detectable but barely. I will need to see this 9 HP loss you mention..

I know you have made up your mind..thats fine, this is for others that may be following this thread..

http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=dynodrag&Number=37746&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=all&vc=1

"Greg,

It is possible that the DMD smoothed the torque curve and gained a little power. HOwever, one dyno run is not enough to verify that. Two different days separated by months and only a slight increase in power could be affected by many things including different oil, different engine operating temp, etc. You know what I mean...you could run 6 dyno runs in a row and see that for whatever reason you can have statistical variation of more than a few HP and torque. We need to see before and after runs from well tuned cars with a bit more of a dyno history...like yours unless you have done too many things since your last measurement.

warmonger"

I was comparing the UDP which is both lighter and has a smaller diameter than stock/DMD.
No way in God's green earth is there someone going to tell me I didn't lose power (significant power) going from a UDP 12.9oz to a DMD 1 billion lbs.
You are right I have made up my mind, and whats so funny I was expecting my engine to run as smooth as a cadillac or lexus, something, it was smooth but not that much smoother.

on another note: lets say a udp adds 5hp by itself
Fidanza releases another 5hp

but both together would work better.. adding up to more than 10hp combined. A lot of mods are like that, by each they are ok, combined they are better than the sum.

Eric

Since you've got all those tranny mods, especially the flywheel, I wouldn't be surprised if you lost more than just 4-5hp.

I ran my ASP pulley (which is about 1/3 the weight of the DMD) for 40k+ miles, and I installed the DMD last week.

Power loss? Yes, slightly, but the smoothness far outweighs the few hp that I did lose. Actually, the car seems to pull a little better from 6-7k rpm... Maybe since I still have my SHO Shop power steering pulley, the HP loss isn't as great.

Whatever floats your boat!

Oh, and I, too, haven't seen a Duratec blow up BECAUSE of a UDP either, hence why I've had mine on there for that long.

-J

All I'm saying is that I can deal with the slight "pseudo" vibration or harshness as compared to the power loss. I'm not trying to convince anyone not to get the DMD just stating my thoughts. I drive I-75 all day long and I can't remember that last time I used 5th gear, I live above 5k and I have a lot of miles on my UDP. My car makes good power so (IF???) my crank goes out on me I have a feeling it won't be until my car has aged for a long time.

Eric

note: I think I notice a big difference because I do have the Fidanza more than anything. Fidanza and a 12.9oz pulley = wicked engine speed, guess I just got spoiled with an engine that can almost rev at the speed of a GSXr.

wasn't there just a post here recently about how you actually GAIN hp by REDUCING flex of the crank? I don't know, initially I noticed the bog, but you'll notice the engine struggling less above 5k, which is where all of our power is. . .I'm coupling my DMD'ed engine to a fidanza, so I would assume you'd be able to ge to the sweet spot faster and smoother with better power delivery since your crank isn't whipping everywhere. . .eh, to each his own.

Yes, right here!.

That was on a 400hp car though, i'm sure higher hp amplifies the effect. Not to say we wont gain hp, i'm just saying any hp we may gain will be minimal.

I just put one on my Vortech equipped car and it feels a little stronger. I cant really say whether or not it was due to the DMD, since my car is so inconsistent with the weather and humidity. It does add alot of peice of mind though

Originally posted by {Kontofosho}:
That was on a 400hp car though, i'm sure higher hp amplifies the effect. Not to say we wont gain hp, i'm just saying any hp we may gain will be minimal.

Forget about the 400 hp car.

The point of that article was that real engine builders, who are religious about weight, add weight to the damper to gain power (in that case, about 15 lbs). Period.

Now, the main purpose of the DMD was to reduce NVH, and the weight difference between it and the stock damper is pretty minimal in comparison. Does the DMD, specifically, gain power? That seems to be undecided still.

Does the PCM care? Yes, because unlike springs and struts, it is a critical engine component that can affect the valvetrain. A few guys here have thrown CEL's after DMD install.

You know, I've gotta stand up here and support Flecha's comments. When the whole DMD thing started getting talked about I too got caught up in all the talk and bought one and got it installed at Ford. I took the ASP UDP off and put this on. As soon as I drove off it honestly felt like I was carrying a carload full of people. It's like he said, the revs don't rise as quickly and there's not the 'snap' throttle response when you tip into the throttle ... needless to say at the first opportunity I too put the UDP back on and sold my DMD. The change in smoothness was also minor as mentioned. Obviously others have had different results, but mine were not of the positive kind ... and ya I know about the crank whip thing ... that's my opinion.

Thats undersatnd able......but i read on he that they were comparing it to the stock pully, not hte UDP....so a power loss on your end is the price you pay for the peice of mind that you won;t spin a bearing....Now its also up to you if you want to put it back, but you should have been aware that the DMD power comparasons were to the stock pully.

There is a common misconception that the DMD is better than the UDP power wise...that is not true...it is a better stock replacement.

Good luck with what you chose....

Roz

When I'm going to go w/ the DMD, i'm probably going to try and couple the DMD w/ the alt & power steering pulley to offset the difference... I would think that would help.

How old is the Contour now..98+ I think there are a few people with tons of mileage on them, me for one. Has anyone ever had their V6 duratec contours blow up specifically due to either the stock dampner or UDP?

I've asked this question countless times and I again ask this question once more.

I installed my UDP back on last night and am a very happy camper now.. my car even turns on quicker with the UDP, and the throttle response compared to the DMD is instantaneous.
These are MY opinions, My recommendation: buy the DMD because you know what, you'll get that "reassurance" knowing that just because everyone in the world puts one on you have to as well.

Conformity= soooo exciting

Eric

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
No way in God's green earth is there someone going to tell me I didn't lose power (significant power) going from a UDP 12.9oz to a DMD 1 billion lbs.

i didnt realize the DMD was THAT heavy...

oops..did I say a billion.. I meant 7 lbs..

sorry

My SVT "survived" 140,000 miles without a DMD.

Originally posted by Baby SHO:
My SVT "survived" 140,000 miles without a DMD.

NOOOOOOOOO... how dare a duratec engine survive that many miles without a DMD? I don;t believe you..no way no how!

I'll give you piece of mind.. piece of mind of a lighter wallet...LOL.

Baby SHO, I bet your were terrorized every night about when your engine was going to blow due to the lack of a DMD.

Eric

It's not fair to compare the UDP to the DMD. The DMD is not an alternitive to a UPD. The reasons for DMD have been explained in mass so we won't blah blah about all that.

Also you didn't really lose power since your car stock didn't have the UDP. So with the UDP you then gained hp over stock. Going back to the DMD there is little difference in HP over stock.

So...

Originally posted by Baby SHO:
My SVT "survived" 140,000 miles without a DMD.

Wonder how long it could have been?

Originally posted by MotorCity:

Originally posted by Baby SHO:
My SVT "survived" 140,000 miles without a DMD.

Wonder how long it could have been?

oh Baby Sho, I didn't know your duratec died, my condolences.

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
How old is the Contour now..98+ I think there are a few people with tons of mileage on them, me for one. Has anyone ever had their V6 duratec contours blow up specifically due to either the stock dampner or UDP?

Yes, no, maybe..

1) it is clear that crank whip occurs with stock damper...
2) the DMD was designed to reduce it...some say for longevity, some say for NVH (I mean, what is causing the vibration that is cured by adding mass to the crank?)
3) Some experts believe (and some do not) the majority of the spun bearings are due to crank whip...
4) So maybe MOST/ALL cases of spun bearings (at least 30-50 have been reported on CEG alone over last 3 years...several a less than 100K miles)....OR maybe not..
5) UDP may be no worse than stock (or it may)...but stock may suck
6) If 49% of Duratecs fail before 100K miles due to crank whip....then the "majority" will say "I had no problem".

Again, this is for people just tuning into this issue. Many of us have hashed this out and decided long ago.

seriously though, is there any documented engine failures due to a stock/udp crank pulley, I really want to know, not just being sarcastic.

I think the DMD pretty much SUCKS , im going to ditch mine ASAP ... "

Originally posted by --CitatioN10--:
I think the DMD pretty much SUCKS , im going to ditch mine ASAP ... "

your just wanting to start a war here.. don;t you dare get my thread lock or tossed..lol.

Eric

HAHA, well im not cutting anyone down , Im just expressing my opinion , and that is the DMD sucks COMPARED to the UDP ......OK the DMD might be good but not for me.

Just like with a girl , might be nice to wear protection ?!
BUT you all konw its a heck of a lot better without !

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
seriously though, is there any documented engine failures due to a stock/udp crank pulley, I really want to know, not just being sarcastic.

I really was not being sarcastic....I think it is an unknown.

Basically, if bad crank harmonics WAS a problem, the main or rod bearings would presumably be damaged and spin. But I do not know that it is possible to tell from engine tear down WHY bearings spin. Low oil pressure may give a similar pattern of bearing wear (because crank whip really results is misdistribution of the oil film). There were changes made to later Duratec oil systems as well as the DMD and oil starvation issues may play a role. About 2 years ago, I thought it was all oil starvation and did some research & took a pole on CEG. Only about 1/3 of the spun bearings occured in setting where you would expect starvation..low oil or hard right turn. Now, maybe the damage occured earlier and was not associated wth events at the time. Soon after, Judge (who work at the OEM damper supplier) reported engines were lost on the test stand (with controlled oil delivery) and that crank whip was suspected..which ultimately resulted in the DMD.

So anyway, thats what I have learned & hope I got the details right. Judge/other correct me if I am wrong.

Bearings do spin in Duratecs..just not clear if it is crank whip, oil starvation, or as one CEGer has proposed the weak nature of PM rods.. Personally, I think a combination..crank whip in some cases, others seem clear cut oil starvation. But, thats is speculation...and I conceed it is possible that DMD will not protect engines. But, there are other ways to improve revability without lossing the DMD. I have the aluminum P/S steering pulley (1 pound lighter and 15% underdrive..makes a noticable dif..also UD alt pulley avail and electric H2o pump..though expensive0

Dan I meant I wasn't being sarcastic not you. Anyways all in all I'm happy with my choice.

Thanks,
eric

Same with me , I happy with my desision of tossing this DMD crap ...Now i got to get a UDP !

No problem. I do understand that it would be harder to go from UDP to DMD, rather than stock to DMD. Hopefully, you'll have no probs. Heck, if MY engine blows with the DMD then I'll get a UDP!!

Originally posted by --CitatioN10--:

Just like with a girl , might be nice to wear protection ?!
BUT you all konw its a heck of a lot better without !

Worrrrrrrrrrd.... haha! Hillarious.

I went from the ASP UDP to DMD, and I would never say the DMD is crap!

The engine spools up a little slower, but not much. I have an SVT flywheel, so I have experienced he difference when going to a UDP and going to a lighter flywheel.

Personally, I was sick of the vibrations. I got the DMD for NVH reasons, but if it extends engine life, bonus. I am very happy with how much smoother the engine feels.

I ran a UDP for 43K, no problems.

-Lance

Im selling my DMD if anyone wants it !

Originally posted by --CitatioN10--:
Im selling my DMD if anyone wants it !

I hope you crank walk!

Originally posted by Mapitazifosho:

Originally posted by --CitatioN10--:
Im selling my DMD if anyone wants it !

I hope you crank walk!

It's not a 2nd gen DSM.

We suffer from severe crank whip.
Also the crank whips all the time on every engine. Ours is just prone to do it more violently because the engine was shortened (and subsequently the crank as well) after it was designed. (thanks Ford

)

Originally posted by Lance Kinley:
I went from the ASP UDP to DMD, and I would never say the DMD is crap!

The engine spools up a little slower, but not much. I have an SVT flywheel, so I have experienced he difference when going to a UDP and going to a lighter flywheel.

Personally, I was sick of the vibrations. I got the DMD for NVH reasons, but if it extends engine life, bonus. I am very happy with how much smoother the engine feels.

I ran a UDP for 43K, no problems.

-Lance

So you did it, Lance.
Do you think your UDP made the NVH worse when you had it? Because I remember you saying how you really felt it through the pedals when you're up at 6k+ rpms.

DMD for me is peace of mind.

- Kerry

No offense Lance but comparing an SVT flywheel to a Fidanza is like comparing a 03 cobra to a SVT contour power wise..no comparison. I am confident you didn't notice as much power loss as I did just because of that..svt flywheel compared to a 9lb Fidanza.

Eric

Now when you keep refering to power loss do you mean actual power loss or do you mean it simply revs up to where you want slower?

Once your up to full revs do you feel you still have lost power or did it simply take you longer to get to full revs?

My limited knowledge of engine physics would lead me to think the crank pulley would rev slower initially due to the extra mass but once up to higher revs the extra mass would tend to keep the it spinning easier and smoother.

Originally posted by MotorCity:
Now when you keep refering to power loss do you mean actual power loss or do you mean it simply revs up to where you want slower?

Once your up to full revs do you feel you still have lost power or did it simply take you longer to get to full revs?

Let me ask you this..

0-60 if you get to the SVT sweet spot in 2.9 sec(example)

0-60 you get to the SVT sweet spot in 1.9 sec(example)

which one do you think would provide a better time?

Eric

I definately understand where your coming from with that.

I just don't personally drive 0-60 that often. I guess you do that alot. I would probably drive something else if I were aiming for killer 0-60 times (like an SRT-4

)

I got a question flecha, how would you hook up a 1.9 0-60 in an svt? I'm still in my centerforce breakin period so I haven't got to launch with the centerforce/fidanza/quaife yet (although I'm dying to). My biggest problem has been my driveline and wheelhop, did you put weights on your control arms or something??? By the way if you've accually acheived that time in your contour... mad props

those times are just to make a point, not real times, just pulled them off my head.

also it isn't just about 0-60.. the same point can be made from 5-60 60-100 mph is irrelavant, it's how fast you get THROUGH the duratec's powerband is what's important.

Eric

wheel hop can be reduced my motor mount inserts/replace stock stab shock with something like a performance fords one, although it will create some additional vibrations but will help a lot with wheel hop.

I did figure that the 1.9 was just a number, but hey it never hurts to dream right? I have the energy suspension inserts and I had no idea that the stab o shock could be improved, I always thought it to be kind of wierd little thing to have there anyways.

if you have wheel hop issues I recommend the performance fords Street Link torque brace.

http://www.performancefords.com/products/suspension/tb.html

eric

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
No offense Lance but comparing an SVT flywheel to a Fidanza is like comparing a 03 cobra to a SVT contour power wise..no comparison. I am confident you didn't notice as much power loss as I did just because of that..svt flywheel compared to a 9lb Fidanza.

Eric

Sorry, not trying to Hijack thread, but i thought they only made the Fidanza'a in 11.6 pound weight(thats mine)??? If they come in 9 lbs, where did you get it cause i want one.

Roz

Originally posted by Roz 1999 SVT-C:

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
No offense Lance but comparing an SVT flywheel to a Fidanza is like comparing a 03 cobra to a SVT contour power wise..no comparison. I am confident you didn't notice as much power loss as I did just because of that..svt flywheel compared to a 9lb Fidanza.

Eric

Sorry, not trying to Hijack thread, but i thought they only made the Fidanza'a in 11.6 pound weight(thats mine)??? If they come in 9 lbs, where did you get it cause i want one.

Roz

Mine too, but it is a rather moot (sp) point. Thanks for the link by the way, I'll be picking up one of those shortly.

where did you get 11.6? I weighed mine and others I sell..

first the total shipment included in box is under 10lbs.. then I weighed mine and other on a

special calibrated Mettler Toledo scale. I work where we have to count parts that weigh less than you can imagine.

eric

I got it off the SP motorsports website where if give the description it says 11.6 pounds.....i never got a chance to actually weight it becaue i needed my car back (blew diff)asap.....Then again the website doesn;t state weather its "shipping weight" or product weight.

Roz

EDIT: Here is the link to the site
http://www.spmotorsports.com/contour_driveline_flywheels.html

ooh..lol.. do ever go by that stuff, just like H/R's basically states according to "their" numbers that they'll lower your car like 1.6" or something in the rear and it doesn't even come close.

I've sold my share of fidanza's and I know exactly what they weigh.

eric

Thanks for the info.....I should have know, but i guess i just didn;t think.

Roz

Don't know about the UR one, but I know the asp UDP is prone to wear a groove in its face, causing a crank seal leak. Steel, like membership, as its priviledges...

Thats exactly why the UR has a steel surface for the seal to ride against.

Originally posted by mangler:
Don't know about the UR one, but I know the asp UDP is prone to wear a groove in its face, causing a crank seal leak. Steel, like membership, as its priviledges...

you ever wonder why the ASP one cost half as much as the Unorthodox. hmm.. I always believed you get what you pay for.

eric

Originally posted by mangler:
Don't know about the UR one, but I know the asp UDP is prone to wear a groove in its face, causing a crank seal leak. Steel, like membership, as its priviledges...

Ummm, that could just be the source of my oil leak.

I was starting to think they didn't put enough RTV sealer on ...

Originally posted by Dan Nixon:

Originally posted by FlechaAutoSports:
seriously though, is there any documented engine failures due to a stock/udp crank pulley, I really want to know, not just being sarcastic.

I really was not being sarcastic....I think it is an unknown.

Basically, if bad crank harmonics WAS a problem, the main or rod bearings would presumably be damaged and spin. But I do not know that it is possible to tell from engine tear down WHY bearings spin. Low oil pressure may give a similar pattern of bearing wear (because crank whip really results is misdistribution of the oil film). There were changes made to later Duratec oil systems as well as the DMD and oil starvation issues may play a role. About 2 years ago, I thought it was all oil starvation and did some research & took a pole on CEG. Only about 1/3 of the spun bearings occured in setting where you would expect starvation..low oil or hard right turn. Now, maybe the damage occured earlier and was not associated wth events at the time. Soon after, Judge (who work at the OEM damper supplier) reported engines were lost on the test stand (with controlled oil delivery) and that crank whip was suspected..which ultimately resulted in the DMD.

So anyway, thats what I have learned & hope I got the details right. Judge/other correct me if I am wrong.

Bearings do spin in Duratecs..just not clear if it is crank whip, oil starvation, or as one CEGer has proposed the weak nature of PM rods.. Personally, I think a combination..crank whip in some cases, others seem clear cut oil starvation. But, thats is speculation...and I conceed it is possible that DMD will not protect engines. But, there are other ways to improve revability without lossing the DMD. I have the aluminum P/S steering pulley (1 pound lighter and 15% underdrive..makes a noticable dif..also UD alt pulley avail and electric H2o pump..though expensive0

Please elaborate on the PM Rods.

Thanks

PM rods = "powdered metal" rods = sinter forged rods. Stonger than cast rods (used in many domestics), weaker than billet rods (used in some high po cars, Forced induction typically). One knowlegeable CEGer suggested that the stretching forces were altering the shape of these softer rods causing them to contact bearings assymetrically inducing wear (if I understood him correctly). Not saying this is real...it was a therory proposed.

I just finished installing the DMD.
I took my car for a test drive and I really didn't feel much of a difference.

Maybe I just need more mods on the ol car.

While we are reviving this old post, I think this stuff on weak PM rods is a load of bunk.
The powdered metal process was introduced to make complex parts with the same physical properties completely through the part. There are many advantages to the PM part, not the least of which is resistance to distortion and a probable increase in fracture toughness. The powder fragments are compressed into the shape of the part and then heated up until they fuse together. They will tend to be more brittle than regular cast or forged rods. Any load that is stong enough to break them more than likely WILL break them rather than be dissipated by flexure. The cast and forged rods can bend a little more elastically to spread out the loading of the force.
So, powder metal parts should be able to offer superior properties to cast rods, but ultimate strength is still less than that of good forged rods.
If this means anything, then it is highly unlikely that distortion of the rod is causing the bearings to spin.

Maybe they just need to increase the detent tab on the bearing that locks in it place within the rod?