When I searched, this thread was useless towards a source to buy. Advance Auto Parts only has the stock 192F/195F Thermo and I need to know which auto parts has it. My PCM is programmed to activate the main cooling fan at 200F, and shut off at 180F, so my coolant is going in before it even has a chance to cool (not anything bad since the fan does not shut off anyway LOL), but I would like to add the 160F thermo to help things sync better. Thanks guys...
XL
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Will the 160 t-stat help keep the motor cooler when the car is warmed up?? Or will that just make it warm up slower??
It will help keep it cooler while you are moving. If you are idling or sitting in traffic you are at the mercy of the cooling fans.
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Can I use the factory Ford replacement for the 96' Ford Mustang GT, or only aftermarket? Thanks!
XL
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Can I use the factory Ford replacement for the 96' Ford Mustang GT, or only aftermarket? Thanks!
XL
they are both the same, with exception of price. I'd just stick with one from Autozone, Napa, or whatever. Save yourself some money. Can't remeber the list price, but I think it was somewhere damn near 30 bucks cheaper at Autozone.
However, I'd call Steve or Bill J and see. 
Originally posted by Stry-ped:
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Can I use the factory Ford replacement for the 96' Ford Mustang GT, or only aftermarket? Thanks!
XL
they are both the same, with exception of price. I'd just stick with one from Autozone, Napa, or whatever. Save yourself some money. Can't remeber the list price, but I think it was somewhere damn near 30 bucks cheaper at Autozone.
However, I'd call Steve or Bill J and see.
Steve quoted me $7.27 for the thermo, and $4.00 & change for the gasket 
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Stry-ped:
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Can I use the factory Ford replacement for the 96' Ford Mustang GT, or only aftermarket? Thanks!
XL
they are both the same, with exception of price. I'd just stick with one from Autozone, Napa, or whatever. Save yourself some money. Can't remeber the list price, but I think it was somewhere damn near 30 bucks cheaper at Autozone.
However, I'd call Steve or Bill J and see.
Steve quoted me $7.27 for the thermo, and $4.00 & change for the gasket
That doesn't sound right.. I could have SWORN they were much more. *searching*
Never mind... 13.17 at Fordparts.com. 
. Buy it from Steve. Autozone wants 9 bucks plus the gasket.
Originally posted by Stry-ped:
Buy it from Steve. Autozone wants 9 bucks plus the gasket.
Done, plus some secret goodies for late summer exposure... 
What temp does the stock PCM pull timing?
When is your re-flashed PCM going to pull timing?
Last time I checked we don't have a gasket, just on O-ring. The gasket IIRC is ONLY for V8's where the t-stat sits in the houssing in the intake manifold.
Stazi's right.
When I replaced mine in my last CSVT, I got the 160 degree thermostat and the Dealership sold me a "non returnable" gasket with it... which under further observation, wasn't required. You can use the O-ring from the original Thermostat (if there's no crack, swells, etc), or order one from Ford ($1.22.. not sure of the part number, though)
Originally posted by Stry-ped:
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
The 160F thermostat is a Stant #13396 from a '96 Mustang GT. I'm sure Autozone or Advance Auto carries them.
Can I use the factory Ford replacement for the 96' Ford Mustang GT, or only aftermarket? Thanks!
XL
they are both the same, with exception of price.
Incorrect.
The stock Mustang T-stat is 192F.
Hence why a SPECIFIC AFTERMARKET PART NUMBER was listed.
MOST LISTED PARTS have the wrong heat range listed on the box. Most places sell a "labeled" 180F T-stat that is nothing more then a reboxed OEM. {192F}
Also IIRC it's from an 00+ Mustang after the head change and hose routing change. {I'm too lazy to search for my other posts about it 
} The earlier ones are too small. Again HENCE the part number. 
Got mine, special order, from All Point Auto (local NJ chain). Took some doing, but I got it.
So which one is it. I want to order one of these before i get my custom chip done. That way it will kinda work together. I called a local parts store and ford dealership and the ford dealership said all they have is the factory ones for the 96 stang gt. And the guy at the local parts store said that they were different parts between the 2 and the mustang one wouldnt fit.
Originally posted by Roadwarrior:
So which one is it. I want to order one of these before i get my custom chip done. That way it will kinda work together. I called a local parts store and ford dealership and the ford dealership said all they have is the factory ones for the 96 stang gt. And the guy at the local parts store said that they were different parts between the 2 and the mustang one wouldnt fit.
Ordered mine from Advance Auto Parts yesterday. It is indeed the Stant #133966 for a 96' Ford Mustang GT. Available in 180F, and 160F. I got the 160F thank you very much 
.
I would hope you can install this yourself rather than pay someone to do it. It's a 10 minute job.
Originally posted by Stazi:
I would hope you can install this yourself rather than pay someone to do it. It's a 10 minute job.
I hope so too. I just invested money into a new set of tools so I have assumed 80% of all mechanical jobs done on the car from today on... 
XL
Have you nominated the "out of style" Miami Vice gear for work attire?!
. I know I know, you gotta look "fly" at any one moment no matter what circumstance.
He's got steel-toe leather mesh penny loafers, a DuPont Teflon coated hawaiian shirt and stainguard impregnated white linen sailing slacks - he should be good togo.
LMAO!!
Here's X in his work clothes.
LMAO, nice pic Staz!
Got the thermo guys! Putting it on this weekend!
Why???? You know, I haven't gone off in a technical rant in the regular forums in a few years at least. I just don't waste the time these days anymore. However, for YOU I'll make it a special occasion and give you something to chew on.
So I ask again, Why????
All lowering the operating temp does is make cooling less efficient and if it is hot outside the engine will still run at the same temps as it would with the higher t-stat.
Minimum operating temp is determined by the T-stat, maximum operating temp is determined by the cooling capacity of the radiator combined with the turn-on temp of the cooling fans. So why, pray tell, are you guys always following everyone else and putting in the 160 T-stat?
There is only one area that I could consider it helping in and that is in mild ambient temps below around 80 F AND not in city driving but on the highway where a steady-state of heat transfer can occur.
..."Newton's law of cooling describes the rate of heat transfer from a solid surface into a fluid medium.
Q= hA(Tsurf - Tamb)
This relationship is valid for both forced and natural convection. T (amb) is the ambient fluid temperature.
"h" is defined as the convective heat transfer coefficient. This proportionality constant contains all the nonlinearities associated with convection.
"
Or Differentially, the way I remember it is:
dQ/dT= -kA/C(T-Ts)
All this really states is that the rate of cooling increases with teh temperature difference between the hot object and cold object.
If ambient is 80F then you have a dT=80 degrees. (dT is the temperature difference)
If however ambient is 120 like in Phoenix AZ, then you only have a dT=40. (assuming your engine actually ran at 160)
So the smaller difference in temp means that you will cool off much slower, therefore you will transfer less heat out of your engine in the same time than if it were at a higher temp, and so on. Don't forget, this follows Newtonian cooling, therefore it is exponential and it will cool much faster initially then slow down as the dT gets smaller
Therefore, my point isn't that the 180 is better than the 160, it is that the 160 is NO better than the 180 and a waste of time and money...unless your old one is no good. Then you have to remember that you may have reduced heating capability with the heater and changes to engine warm up time, and the reduced efficiency of combustion in very cold temperatures...20F is a large change in terms of heat energy.
For every 10 degrees cooler the engine runs it requires 1 less octane point. (I.E. more boost, timing, etc per octane from pump gas)
You wonder why I could run my race program until the mean heat of summer...
Well besides good tuning
Even now I switch to it if I'm driving at night.
What difference is that on a stock or mail order chip car. Not much if any.
For ref
Stock t-stat starts to open at 190-192.
Stock fans are 216/224.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
For every 10 degrees cooler the engine runs it requires 1 less octane point. (I.E. more boost, timing, etc per octane from pump gas)
You wonder why I could run my race program until the mean heat of summer... Well besides good tuning
Even now I switch to it if I'm driving at night.
What difference is that on a stock or mail order chip car. Not much if any.
For ref
Stock t-stat starts to open at 190-192.
Stock fans are 216/224.
BTW, Tom, thanks for the corrective and informational post. Who needs a car forum when they have friends like you?
Okay so let me get this straight. Right now my SCT tune and program has my main cooling fan coming on at 200F, and shutting off at 180F. I will need a 180F thermostat in order for the dF to be compliant both from the fan and the thermostat in synchro correct? Stock is 192/195 at Autozone, and the Mustang one I have in the box here is 160f, but they also provide a 180f one as well. 3 Choices, and I need to pick one by Friday. Thanks guys...
XL
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
For every 10 degrees cooler the engine runs it requires 1 less octane point. (I.E. more boost, timing, etc per octane from pump gas)
You wonder why I could run my race program until the mean heat of summer... Well besides good tuning
Even now I switch to it if I'm driving at night.
What difference is that on a stock or mail order chip car. Not much if any.
For ref
Stock t-stat starts to open at 190-192.
Stock fans are 216/224.
BTW, Tom, thanks for the corrective and informational post. Who needs a car forum when they have friends like you?
Okay so let me get this straight. Right now my SCT tune and program has my main cooling fan coming on at 200F, and shutting off at 180F. I will need a 180F thermostat in order for the dF to be compliant both from the fan and the thermostat in synchro correct? Stock is 192/195 at Autozone, and the Mustang one I have in the box here is 160f, but they also provide a 180f one as well. 3 Choices, and I need to pick one by Friday. Thanks guys...
XL
Not exactly.
Stock runs like 225 turn on and 210 turn off or something like that. The ultimate temp you can go without coolant boilover is determined by the cap. THe higher it can get the better it sheds heat but the more pressure....yada yada.
You already have it then go ahead and run it. It isn't going to change much unless you are in a cool climate already.
Having the fans come on at 200F is no big deal either other than you don't use the cooling system to its max potential due to the whole heat transfer thing. I would use a 220-200 range myself.
Again, the t-stat will be the minimum operating temperature for your engine. The engine will run warmer most of the time except cold start and highway cruise with cool ambient temps.
This is the only reason I give credence to what Demon was just saying. It may allow him a little more timing under certain conditions but only when the engine temp is lower than 180 and that doesn't happen too often. For the most part I think it is a placebo and that it was more likely his combustion chamber prep and his tuning that allowed the better timing numbers.
So if I didn't already say it, you will be fine with the setup you are going to except in the afore mentioned initial startup, cold start/cold temp emissions and with the lower fan turn on temp and the slightly slower rate of cooling associated with it.
Just remember that your cooling fans will be running all the time now except in very cool weather and you may end up having to replace them due to the reduced longevity.
Don't you ever wonder why they put higher pressure radiator systems in cars? THey have been raising the pressure on radiator systems consistenly for almost 100 years as engines advanced. THey are now up to 20lbs pressure wheras 30 years ago they ran 6-10lbs.
Tom is correct. In the winter, when I rarely drive my car, it does run cooler, and also on the e-way, but in traffic it is NO different
Well, stock thermo's are 225/220, but the Advanced Auto Parts replacement is 195/192. I guess the 20 degree difference would help a little since down here we just don't get a breakaway from heat & humidity levels during the summer. The thermo is still in the box unused so it's far from unreturnable. I just think I am going to go back to my more efficient 210/200 cooling fan operating temp (you're right, the thing never turns off) from the first SCT tune, and get the 192/195 AAP replacement thermostat, that way reducing operating temperatures while still retaining most of the cooling system's efficiency.
Very informative posts guys, it's a pleasure to receive advice from 3 of the biggest masterminds of this forum: Stazi, Greg, and Tom. Many thanks guys, this thread is definitely going down in the search books to help many a CEGer to come.
XL
If you want to improve cooling, get yourself a bottle of Water Wetter from Autozone and add that to the coolant - yes it does work.
My cars been running Water Weter for several years and I just flushed my coolant and added it in with the new once again. You can tell it works, my car runs at ALL times in the "N" area of the guage. It has never budged in these last many years, no matter how many traffic jam crawls or highway cruises, or city driving with A/C on I do. Take that thermo back, keep the stock one til it dies, and add some Redline Water Weter (~$5.50).
If you haven't flushed the coolant.. get it done NOW because that Miami heat will play a toll on your cooling system. (I beleive you said you DID have it done). You will basically want to remove the amount of coolant you add in with the water wetter (not much, maybe 2 ounces) so that you keep the dilusion that redline suggests.
Not trying to start a flame war here but you are only partially correct in your statement. True Q = kA (Ti-To) which describes the conductivity of the radiator. However the heat removed from the system through the coolant is Q = k * mass flow rate of coolant * temp. change of coolant (Q = km(Ti-To)
The t-stat reduces the mass flow of coolant which increases the temp of the system (the energy into the system remains unchanged; therefore if the mass flow rate decreases the temp differential must increase); this is what keeps the temp up when little heat is added to the system. If you remove the t-stat and compare coolant temps (same ambient conditions, some vehicle speed) of the same vehicle running w/o a t-stat will give you lower temps. The heat into the system is unchanged (comparing with and w/o a t-stat) yet the temps are different. It is just a balancing act between the difference in coolant mass flow rates and the coolant temperature.
Example - While on the highway with my 165F t-stat my coolant temp runs at 165F. The power required to move the car at highway speed (65 MPH) is fairly small (I'm guessing maybe 20-30 Hp). With the t-stat removed I run about 150F on a summer day. However in an application where much higher Hp is used (i.e. more heat into the system), such as on track, my coolant temperature is much greater than 165F (near 200F).
Kinda curios as to why the rate of coolant cooling is even considered. The thermostat will cycle just as the fans do, and will keep the temps regulated to an overall lower temp. The amount of heat transfered has little to nothing to do with it the way I see things. The overall idea is to control the level of heat in the motor. So long as the rate of heat transfer from the coolant/radiator to the air, is HIGHER than the rate of transfer from the motor to the coolant, then the coolant temps will drop with a new thermostat. In any decently designed cooling setup, the radiator will be able to dump more heat than the motor can produce (assuming XXXcfm airflow). In traffic, I can see the temps being regulated by the fans, as that is the airflow regulator. On the highway, or about anywhere constant over 35mph or so, the thermostat will be the controlling factor.
So the way I see things, to get the best use of the thermostat you need to alter the fan settings as well. However assuming some movement, I can't possibly see how the 160 is in any way a waste.
Quote:
So the way I see things, to get the best use of the thermostat you need to alter the fan settings as well. However assuming some movement, I can't possibly see how the 160 is in any way a waste.
I agree 100%
Quote:
So long as the rate of heat transfer from the coolant/radiator to the air, is HIGHER than the rate of transfer from the motor to the coolant, then the coolant temps will drop with a new thermostat.
True indeed
Quote:
Kinda curios as to why the rate of coolant cooling is even considered. The thermostat will cycle just as the fans do, and will keep the temps regulated to an overall lower temp. The amount of heat transfered has little to nothing to do with it the way I see things. The overall idea is to control the level of heat in the motor.
Here is where you err, Grasshopper. The heat into the system is everything. The t-stat does not cycle as you think. Once it is full open it has no effect on cooling (other than it is a flow restriction). Its function is to limit the minimum coolant temp, not the max. Once you are past full open (assuming you are applying high Hp) now you are at the mercy of the efficiency of the radiator, ambient air temp, vehicle speed, and mass flow rate of the coolant (or engine speed). When you are not adding much heat to the engine (such as highway driving) then your coolant temp will run at the t-stat setting (assuming a clean radiator). Remember Qin = km(Ti-To). (Ti-To) is basically fixed by the t-stat temp and ambient air temp. The only way to vary the heat is to alter the mass flow rate of the coolant (remember heat is a function of the fluid, mass of the fluid, and temperature). Once Qin is greater than that which the radiator can exchange (the equilibrium temp between the t-stat, radiator, and heat in) the temp. will begin to rise assuming constant coolant and air mass flow rates and ambient air temp.
Originally posted by liquidX:
Well, stock thermo's are 225/220, but the Advanced Auto Parts replacement is 195/192.
Tom meant the stock fans.
Also they come on at 216/224 like I stated in my post.
The stock t-stat starts to open at 190-192.
A 180 t-stat start to open around 180-184.
A 160 starts to open around 160-163.
A t-stat only controls the minimum temperature when that temperature can be sustained by ambient temperature and the efficiency of the engine's cooling system. (coolant mix, radiator, fans, w/p)
In my setup I run 70% water / 30% Zerex OAT with water wetter, fans on at 186/196, SVT radiator, revised w/p, and 160 t-stat. Normal operating temp is 175-185.
It's rare the primary fan kicks on unless I am in bumper to bumper traffic in hot weather.
Wish I could get mine to run that cool all the time. Track day - 210F easy.
Is the splash shield in place and have you ever flushed the coolant system?
I flushed the system and replaced with a 65/35 water/coolant (red) mix along with water wetter. I have tested with both the splash shield in place and removed. The splash shield helps a little, but does not make a huge difference from what I can tell. I also have my fans set to turn on anytime I choose. I have pulled the t-stat out completely and can still hit 200F w/o much trouble (not on track but testing near my house - the Gingerman event will tell me just how well everything is working together). I am in the process of boxing in the radiator in hopes this will help some. My conclusion at this point is that the radiator is likely clogged and probably needs to be removed and tanked to clean it out.
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
Not trying to start a flame war here but you are only partially correct in your statement. True Q = kA (Ti-To) which describes the conductivity of the radiator. However the heat removed from the system through the coolant is Q = k * mass flow rate of coolant * temp. change of coolant (Q = km(Ti-To)
The t-stat reduces the mass flow of coolant which increases the temp of the system (the energy into the system remains unchanged; therefore if the mass flow rate decreases the temp differential must increase); this is what keeps the temp up when little heat is added to the system. If you remove the t-stat and compare coolant temps (same ambient conditions, some vehicle speed) of the same vehicle running w/o a t-stat will give you lower temps. The heat into the system is unchanged (comparing with and w/o a t-stat) yet the temps are different. It is just a balancing act between the difference in coolant mass flow rates and the coolant temperature.
Example - While on the highway with my 165F t-stat my coolant temp runs at 165F. The power required to move the car at highway speed (65 MPH) is fairly small (I'm guessing maybe 20-30 Hp). With the t-stat removed I run about 150F on a summer day. However in an application where much higher Hp is used (i.e. more heat into the system), such as on track, my coolant temperature is much greater than 165F (near 200F).
OK, I'll buy most of that, but the thermostats use the same sized opening, therefore the mass flow rates should be the same once they are full open. So you can go right back to your temperature differential in your second eqn. to see the difference in total heat flow.
Also, you have to admit that without a thermostat the mass flow rate will go up since there is no restriction and you get a more efficient flow. This would cool better but would never let the engine stay at a uniform temp; something imperative for good operation of the fuel/emissions system. And still, heat rejection of the radiator will be higher if it is at a higher temp than lower, if all else was equal such as coolant flow rate and airflow rate. It makes little difference in the engine if the coolant is at 160 vs. 180 where combustion temps are 1000 degrees and where a good portion of that heat will flow into the cooling system. However, that 20 degrees does make a difference in heat flow as far as the radiator temp vs. ambient temps is concerned since
Anyway, I don't see how anything I said really contradicted what you are stating other than my terminology, but thanks for correction.
OK I've been following this post because I was going to buy a 160 T-stat aswell. Now I'm not sure whether to go 160, 180 or stock. Florida weather is hot all the time except for a month in Jan where it actually gets cool. Humidity is also always up. I already run water wetter in the coolant. So my question is with my new 3L and CAM driven waterpump should which T-stat am I better off with?
You are correct (and I said so) when the t-stat is open it doesn't become a player anymore (if the holes are the same size). I should clarify that different t-stats have a different hole size. The 160F Stant had a much smaller hole than the stock one. I have removed the t-stat entirely - for what I do it is perfectly fine. I agree that w/o a t-stat your temp. range will likely vary more widely depending upon how you drive the car.
Originally posted by warmonger:
If you remove the t-stat and compare coolant temps (same ambient conditions, some vehicle speed) of the same vehicle running w/o a t-stat will give you lower temps.
There is a point at which the flow rate through the engine is too fast to efficiently remove the heat from the engine. The t-stat also provides a more stable flow rate to maximize heat tranfer from the engine to the coolant. I've seen many causes of removing the t-stat and running hotter.
hey, svttour;
you do realize that your original SVT engine was cam driven, as well?
Just a little off topic, sorry.
Ray
Just an observation on my part here, I tried to use the afformentioned 160 degree 96 mustang t-stat. when comparing the original aka CORRECT stat to the mustang stat you will notice the the mustang stat is missing the lower portion wich fits into the bottom port in the thermostat housing, used to control the flow of coolant through the housing. I went ahead and installed the mustang one despite the visual differences. I then began to have overheating issues. Not boiling over overheating but it would run up towards the top of the guage at an idle, with the rpms up to 2000 or so it would come back down. But also going down the road it would definatly run cooler than normal. I recently switched back to the CORRECT stat and havent had a problem since. My conclusion is that the Correct stat is desinged for our cars and the one for the mustang is not.
Originally posted by Ray:
hey, svttour;
you do realize that your original SVT engine was cam driven, as well?
Just a little off topic, sorry.
Ray
He just specified "cam" cause he just came back form 3 harships using EWP's. Right Sam?
XL
Originally posted by liquidX:
Originally posted by Ray:
hey, svttour;
you do realize that your original SVT engine was cam driven, as well?
Just a little off topic, sorry.
Ray
He just specified "cam" cause he just came back form 3 harships using EWP's. Right Sam?
XL
Yea I have a 2001 3L with 99 heads and svt cams. I cut the cam off of the intake cam on the front head for these cams to be able to work with the 99 heads. Since then I have gone through 2 waterpump and I am on the 3rd. I am also going back to the cam driven waterpump via a set of SVT cams I bought from Pope not too long ago. I also have a set of 2001 oval port heads that kinger PnP and port matched to the svt intakes for me. I am awaiting my new block and I will be back to normal in no time. These current cams that fit 99 3L heads are sold already and someone is interested in my Electric waterpump w/ goodies.
So my question still is what T-stat should I go with I saw 160F but then some say no. If there is no real answer soon given FLs conditions and the mods I have done to the car then I will just stick with a stock T-stat. BTW in order to run the EWP I had to remove the T-stat and run a controller.
Please back on topic.
Man, that is why I originially built my hybrid instead of using the 3L heads. I put in the 3L valves but kept my stock heads mainly for the waterpump issues. I felt the stock pump with updated impeller was sufficient and more reliable. Plus the money I saved on the pump was equivalent to the valve work.
I loved that motor! Or those heads I should say.
Now quickSVT has them and hasn't used them.
If I were you and DIDN't have a way to control fan temps and other factors like timing, I'd just stick with stock. If I had time to experiment and pin down just what benefits the 160 may give with special tuning, then I might try it.
Those three things are the deciding factor, time, tuning, or no-worries use what is designed.
Originally posted by BSOELMAN:
Just an observation on my part here, I tried to use the afformentioned 160 degree 96 mustang t-stat. when comparing the original aka CORRECT stat to the mustang stat you will notice the the mustang stat is missing the lower portion wich fits into the bottom port in the thermostat housing, used to control the flow of coolant through the housing. I went ahead and installed the mustang one despite the visual differences. I then began to have overheating issues. Not boiling over overheating but it would run up towards the top of the guage at an idle, with the rpms up to 2000 or so it would come back down. But also going down the road it would definatly run cooler than normal. I recently switched back to the CORRECT stat and havent had a problem since. My conclusion is that the Correct stat is desinged for our cars and the one for the mustang is not.
You must have had air in your system, installed backwards, or something.... the mustang 'shorty' t-stat works fine.
Originally posted by warmonger:
Man, that is why I originially built my hybrid instead of using the 3L heads. I put in the 3L valves but kept my stock heads mainly for the waterpump issues. I felt the stock pump with updated impeller was sufficient and more reliable. Plus the money I saved on the pump was equivalent to the valve work.
I loved that motor! Or those heads I should say.
Now quickSVT has them and hasn't used them.
If I were you and DIDN't have a way to control fan temps and other factors like timing, I'd just stick with stock. If I had time to experiment and pin down just what benefits the 160 may give with special tuning, then I might try it.
Those three things are the deciding factor, time, tuning, or no-worries use what is designed.
Have him sell those heads to me, Tom!
BSOLEMAN - I was gonna say you must've installed the t-stat backwards, too. I have had ZERO issues with my shorty 160F stat.
What it boils down to (pun intended) is that a lower temp t-stat can provide better power (and even economy by adding timing at part throttle cruise in some cases) by reducing under hood temps as well as combustion temps. Now, key factor here, your cooling system must have some overhead included in order to take advantage of the lower t-stat.
If your cooling system still runs up to stock temps after installing a lower stat, you simply need some help. Things like adding Water Wetter, turning the fans on sooner, enabling longer duty cycles for the fans, swapping in bigger/better fans, swapping in a larger radiator, etc. can all help improve this "overhead" in a given cooling system.
Just for reference sakes: In my Trans Am, I'm up to 38 degrees of ignition advance on mid grade 89-90 octane (40 worked without ping, but netted no gains, so I went back to 38) at cruise throttle positions and pull down 26 mpg with old school iron block and iron headed V8. All due to a 160 stat, a cooling system that can handle the overhead, and careful logging/tuning. At stock temps (210-220ish), I had ping at 30-32 degrees depending on conditions with premium fuel. I can sit in totally locked traffic on a 100+ degree day with the AC at full blast and not go over 165-170 degrees with the stock radiator. Of course with the new 383 I'll have to get a 3 row aluminum jobbie, but I don't forsee any problems running low temps on that combo as well.
Quote:
What it boils down to (pun intended) is that a lower temp t-stat can provide better power (and even economy by adding timing at part throttle cruise in some cases) by reducing under hood temps as well as combustion temps. Now, key factor here, your cooling system must have some overhead included in order to take advantage of the lower t-stat.
I think you eloquently stated in two sentences what I was trying to say in 4-5 paragraphs. 
So in a nutshell for those that only speak English, it basically boils down to this...If you want to lower your operating temp, you need to do much more than just replace your thermo. If you are going with a 160F thermo, you need to lower your ambiance temperature in your engine bay to make the setup efficient, otherwise the thermo will be opening up just to let in coolant that has not had the chance to cool yet.
So things like cutting the vent on your CF hood, lowering the cooling fan turn on/off temps, or coolant additives such as water wetter, etc... can improve ambiance temp. That way you have a happy fan, happy t-stat, happy coolant, and as a result, a happy engine.
Capiche?
Originally posted by Hdbngr8:
Here is where you err, Grasshopper. The heat into the system is everything. The t-stat does not cycle as you think. Once it is full open it has no effect on cooling (other than it is a flow restriction). Its function is to limit the minimum coolant temp, not the max. Once you are past full open (assuming you are applying high Hp) now you are at the mercy of the efficiency of the radiator, ambient air temp, vehicle speed, and mass flow rate of the coolant (or engine speed). When you are not adding much heat to the engine (such as highway driving) then your coolant temp will run at the t-stat setting (assuming a clean radiator). Remember Qin = km(Ti-To). (Ti-To) is basically fixed by the t-stat temp and ambient air temp. The only way to vary the heat is to alter the mass flow rate of the coolant (remember heat is a function of the fluid, mass of the fluid, and temperature). Once Qin is greater than that which the radiator can exchange (the equilibrium temp between the t-stat, radiator, and heat in) the temp. will begin to rise assuming constant coolant and air mass flow rates and ambient air temp.
I agree that heat into the engine is everything, and if you can add more heat than the radiator can take out then you cannot control the upper limit of the temps with the thermostat. HOWEVER, I would assume (no practical experience here with the SVT) that the radiator can pull more heat from the coolant, than the motor can add. Which would lead to the thermostat controlling temps again.
I know the radiator in my S10 is terribly undersized (overheating problems in the southwest are common), and I put a lower temp stat in it to help. I can easily add more heat to the coolant with it than the radiator can pull out, so I completely understand the point, I would just think that the SVT radiator would be of high enough effeciancy to not have this issue......perhaps it is also in the same boat as my S10?
At any rate (and back to the question at hand). I can't see any downfalls to a 160* stat. When the temps are low, and the radiator can pull the heat, you will get lower operating temps which will allow for more timing without detonation. However the overall temps in the summer will most likely not be limited by the thermostat, so be sure to keep that in mind if you are tuning yourself, and leave a bit a room for those hot days.
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Stazi,
If he was going to finish this engine then he would have last year. I sold those parts to him almost a year and a half ago! I'd expect he would have completed it. I can't remember how to get a hold of him but I bet he'd be willing to let them go if you convinced him. The most important part of the work was the runner shape and the bowl work under the valves, as well as the exhaust valve area. That is where I spent hours hand sanding. The runner where it meets the lower intake I just hit with a rotary sander to finish it off, then sanded longitudnally to clean them up. They don't have the 'fit and finish' so to speak that I put in under the valve seat areas and the exhaust ports as I felt they were less critical. But hell, they worked awesome and if you wanted them to be absolutely perfect you could refine them some more.
As far as the T-stat topic: I'm going to bow out of this one now. I only see some smidgeons of truth in all of these perspectives and I don't feel they change the whole truth or overall perspective on the matter.
I'm going to point out that if it were that easy for the manufacturer to improve their fuel economy and improve their overall CAFE (corporate average) then this would be standard equipment to every car. It obviously has more drawbacks than even I have indicated in that case. Hell, a tstat is cheap and costs the same irregardless of temperature rating! Why wouldn't they just run a 160 then?
Mods like headers are proven to improve torque and fuel economy. These cost a lot more to make than standard manifolds and there are also packaging constraints and pre-cats for emissions. They are therefore a serious improvement to the car but too expensive to be employed on every model for the performance that they gain. Therefore it makes sense that a manufacturer would cut them first to save cash. It also makes sense to drop some cash and change them out first if you are modding your car.
The T-stat temp being the only factor just doesn't make sense; this is additional reinforcement to me besides everything I posted above.
So to each his own.
Originally posted by warmonger:
As far as the T-stat topic: I'm going to bow out of this one now. I only see some smidgeons of truth in all of these perspectives and I don't feel they change the whole truth or overall perspective on the matter.
I'm going to point out that if it were that easy for the manufacturer to improve their fuel economy and improve their overall CAFE (corporate average) then this would be standard equipment to every car. It obviously has more drawbacks than even I have indicated in that case. Hell, a tstat is cheap and costs the same irregardless of temperature rating! Why wouldn't they just run a 160 then?
Because just like everything else that comes from the factory, it has drawbacks. The main one being emissions. Lower temp stats effect unburned gasses GREATLY. Without cats or inspection here in Iowa, I don't have to worry about them much.
Originally posted by warmonger:
...
The T-stat temp being the only factor just doesn't make sense; this is additional reinforcement to me besides everything I posted above.
So to each his own.
I also agree with this point, with one exception, when the emissions control parts are deleted. Serious increases in performance and fuel economy can be had on certain models. With the tight engine bays of a Contour, I'd be willing to bet on something big enough to be noticed in mileage logs if you take the time to tune the part throttle cruising areas.
Basically you restated what I had restated from previously saying countless times myself.
The cooling system is only as efficient as the sum of it's parts. (radiator, fans, coolant mix, and w/p)
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Basically you restated what I had restated from previously saying countless times myself.
The cooling system is only as efficient as the sum of it's parts. (radiator, fans, coolant mix, and w/p)
Yes, but you and your fancy shmancy terms... nobody understood you.
BTW, how many extra degrees are you able to run on your setup with the cooler stat/etc.? Or should I just search your site???
That's a trade secret. Nobody can know.
To be honest I never put a stock thermostat back in and found out how much I'd have to lose.
I have run over 50 degrees of timing without detonation. There is no performance benefit from that much timing though.
