Well, i did quite a bit of searching and just couldn't come up with what i was looking for. I'm planning to pull the motor on my project SVT here withing the next couple weeks and i'm wondering if i'm ready for what i'm getting into.
I've removed/reinstalled damn near every part on a tour with the exception if the enigne\trans and i'm mechanically inclined, I also have a frod service cd. So is this something that is causing me undo worry?
For those of you that have done it, how hard was it the first time?
Thanks in advance, tips are welcome.
Josh
You'll probably be ok, it helps to have a buddy or two around. Some say you dont have to, but just pull the rad and be safe because it would suck major ass if you are unlucky enough to puncture it when you're pulling the engine.
Probably have to unbolt and remove your hood too, and obviously all hoses and wires. IIRC we just disconnected the main wiring harness at the ECU by the firewall, and it stayed on the engine as it came out.
One person can do it in about 6 hours going slow and checking every thing. Drop an hour or so if you have a buddy helping you.
That's a good estimate for a first timer.
Difficulty is maybe medium. It's a straight forward pull really.
is it better to pull it out the top,
or if you have a lift drop it and the subframe out the bottom?
Definitely out the top. No need to mess with realigning the subframe that way.
Thanks guys...keep it coming.
I'm definitly taking it out the top, hood, bumper and lights are already off the car.
Are there a lot of specialty tools needed for things like pulling axles?
Well Josh, you're going to want an air hammer for pushing the axles out of the hubs. You're also going to need a slide hammer for popping the axles out of the tranny.
Originally posted by TodrasByAssociation:
Well Josh, you're going to want an air hammer for pushing the axles out of the hubs. You're also going to need a slide hammer for popping the axles out of the tranny.
STOP BEING A GIRLY-MAAN:
i went a different route,i went out the bottom,you cant really mess up the alignment of the subframe, theres really not enough play in the subframe bolts to put it on crooked,i was kinda forced too,i couldnt get the shift rods to come off of the tranny
...i did the whole job by myself,it took me about 4.5 hours to get it out of the bottom. i found dropping the subframe to be the easiest,esp if you want to change the lca's,dont have to worry about the engine catching on anything or puncturing the rad if you dont pull it...of course i'm the minority on this one
If you don't have one already, you need the tool for disconnecting the fuel lines.
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
If you don't have one already, you need the tool for disconnecting the fuel lines.
Where can i get this?
After reading throug the procedures on my Ford CD this evening, it's nowhere near as difficult as i was telling myself. Thanks for the boost in confidence guys, I'm going to get everything disconnected this saturday and actually pull the motor the next weekend (can't get the picker untill then).
Originally posted by pole120:
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
If you don't have one already, you need the tool for disconnecting the fuel lines.
Where can i get this?
I forgot where I got mine but I think any AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, or similar place would carry them.
Looks like this and should be labeled "Ford A/C + Fuel Line Disconnect Tool".
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
I forgot where I got mine but I think any AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, or similar place would carry them.
Looks like this and should be labeled "Ford A/C + Fuel Line Disconnect Tool".
Are instructions included?
the passenger side axle is easy to pull off. then, you can pop the driver's side out from the passenger side, through the diff. you must do it in this order as the driver's side is a bear. it was our first time pulling the motor and we did it in one evening, few hours. a friend will definitely be a good idea. take is sloow when coming out. i remember we had to do some slight shifting of the motor to clear some stuff. watch out for the AC pump. it might snag and tweak the ac hard line. oh yeah, the lovely 2.5 has only one "hook" to connect the chain/strap to. grab some bolts to thread into the motor so you can connect the chain to it.
I think the fastest dale, JD, and myself have pulled a motor is about 3 hours. Dale and I pulled my motor in say 4 hours.
Originally posted by svt4stv:
the passenger side axle is easy to pull off. then, you can pop the driver's side out from the passenger side, through the diff. you must do it in this order as the driver's side is a bear.
Anyone else doing it this way, or have another way of doing it, pulling the axles is realy the only thing i'm not positive i know how to do anymore.
How can you push the drivers side axle out thru the diff?! It isn't possible...
I used a pic a fork
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
I used a pic a fork
with a mallet or air hammer?
With my guns!
where did you get it? Do you know offhand what isex i need?
Do you have an AUtozone around? They will let you borrow one. I used them when I did my Springs and struts. Leave a deposit, use tool, return. Pretty cool, esp. for seldom used tools. Good luck.
Scott
What is it exactly that holds the axles in?
Originally posted by todras:
C-clip
May want to consider replacing it as well. Or at least that's what I was told by Buckshot when I did my 3L swap.
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
Originally posted by todras:
C-clip
May want to consider replacing it as well. Or at least that's what I was told by Buckshot when I did my 3L swap.
the c-clips on my re-man'ed axles sucked the big wang, had one fall out on me. Be cautious, make sure they've got a good fit going in.
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
Originally posted by todras:
C-clip
May want to consider replacing it as well. Or at least that's what I was told by Buckshot when I did my 3L swap.
the c-clips on my re-man'ed axles sucked the big wang, had one fall out on me. Be cautious, make sure they've got a good fit going in.
So correct me if i'm wrong. I need to pull the c-clips then use a pickle fork to get the half-shaft out of the trans.
Thanks for the great info guys.
Josh
Huh?
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
Originally posted by pole120:
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by pole120:
Originally posted by pole120:
Anyone else doing it this way, or have another way of doing it, pulling the axles is realy the only thing i'm not positive i know how to do anymore.
I used a pic a fork
What is it exactly that holds the axles in?
C-clip
So correct me if i'm wrong. I need to pull the c-clips then use a pic a fork (we call em pickle forks) to get the half-shaft out of the trans.
Hopefully that clears up my question.
Uuuu the clip is on the axle inside the transmission. How on gods green earth are you going to pull it? These aren't Contour axles but you get the point.
With my super human abilities to reach through solid materials and grasp object within......
Ok, so the clip will remain in the transmition after the axle is forced out with the pick a fork and simply clip back in when the axle is reinserted?
Sorry for the seemingly simple questions, but i have a minimum understanding of this part of the job.
The C clip is at the end of the axle. It is what locks the axle inside the tranny.
Once you pop the axle out of the tranny, you can then access the C clip, which should still be on the axle.
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
The C clip is at the end of the axle. It is what locks the axle inside the tranny.
Once you pop the axle out of the tranny, you can then access the C clip, which should still be on the axle.
..tony, the other day you told me you didnt know much about mechanics?? 
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
How can you push the drivers side axle out thru the diff?! It isn't possible...
I used a pic a fork
Actually, it depends on the differential, but if you pull the extender shaft out then you can use a brass drift to tap it out, or at least help tap it out from the other side since there is space all the way through the factory diff other than the pin. The torsen has a small hole, about 3/8" that a slender punch can be put through. I have a few quality punches that can be used to go through the hole, but mostly I just get a big pry bar and and a large screwdriver and try to pop the axle from two sides by prying against it on the housing. They two prying instruments end up being about 120 degrees apart due to the trans housing shape, but you get the point. Two parts seem to work better than one.
Thanks guys, i'll let you know how it goes.
Josh
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
The C clip is at the end of the axle. It is what locks the axle inside the tranny.
Once you pop the axle out of the tranny, you can then access the C clip, which should still be on the axle.
..tony, the other day you told me you didnt know much about mechanics??
I don't know anything. All I know is what I learn from CEG and from forcing myself to do my own 3L swap.
Before my 3L swap, I didn't know how to change oil. 
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by CSVT1214:
The C clip is at the end of the axle. It is what locks the axle inside the tranny.
Once you pop the axle out of the tranny, you can then access the C clip, which should still be on the axle.
..tony, the other day you told me you didnt know much about mechanics??
I don't know anything. All I know is what I learn from CEG and from forcing myself to do my own 3L swap.
Before my 3L swap, I didn't know how to change oil.
...ouch...you better know how to pull that exhaust off!!!
Originally posted by warmonger:
the extender shaft out
Is that the same thing as the intermediate shaft? 
Warmonger is the last person I would have thought to call it an "extender" shaft. 
All this shaft talk is exciting toddles!
When I looked thru at the stock diff thru the case I really didn't think that ANY tool could get thru there to the axle..now on a quaife or a torsen I fig no prob, but I didn't think that this was the case with Josh's car so I just stated the above about not being able to go on thru...
When I pulled the axles on my car, I used and axle pulle from autozone. It's basically a slide hammer with a "claw" attachment. You place the claw between the trans case and cv joint and slide the hammer repeatedly until it pops out. Make sure you have a 32MM axle nut socket, you can get those from autozone too.
Originally posted by svt490:
When I pulled the axles on my car, I used and axle pulle from autozone. It's basically a slide hammer with a "claw" attachment. You place the claw between the trans case and cv joint and slide the hammer repeatedly until it pops out. Make sure you have a 32MM axle nut socket, you can get those from autozone too.
Can't i just leave the nut on and leave the axle in the knucle 
I guess you could, I didnt really think about doing it that way.
You can do it that way, but you run a lot bigger risk of hyperextending the CV joint and popping out of place. Also, you'd still have to pull the knuckle loose of the lower ball joint to have enough play to pull the axle out of the trans.
Rick
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
You can do it that way, but you run a lot bigger risk of hyperextending the CV joint and popping out of place. Also, you'd still have to pull the knuckle loose of the lower ball joint to have enough play to pull the axle out of the trans.
Rick
I know this is the wrong side, but I would simply get the strut and knuckle out of there and then get the widest ball joint seperator in between the trans case and the shaft...it should pop right out. 
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
I used a pic a fork
These are known as pickle forks not pic a forks!!
Karl
I've only heard it, never typed it out...never bothered to ask wtf anyone was saying...lol
Originally posted by Save Todras:
That's a big f'n pickle.
That's what she said!!
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
Originally posted by Save Todras:
That's a big f'n pickle.
That's what she said!!
Still using that pickle cause you cant get it up eh? I told you man...thats what viagra is for. Just make sure you completely swallow it, if it gets stuck in the back of your throat, you'll have a stiff neck for hours.
I kid, I kid....
Josh just use the axle puller i made. Don't even waste your time with the pickle fork. And if you really want to pull the axles out all you need is a big piece of brass to knock them out of the hub.
Originally posted by Thinkmoto:
Josh just use the axle puller i made. Don't even waste your time with the pickle fork. And if you really want to pull the axles out all you need is a big piece of brass to knock them out of the hub.
I've pulled about 4-5 duratecs...the pickle fork is the easiest flippin way to get the axles out...
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
I've pulled about 4-5 duratecs...the pickle fork is the easiest flippin way to get the axles out...
Your memory is shot after that many? LOL
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
I've pulled about 4-5 duratecs...the pickle fork is the easiest flippin way to get the axles out...
Your memory is shot after that many? LOL
It depends on what you define...pulling...sometimes I was there from start to finish...other times I wasn't. 
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoâ�??¢:
Originally posted by Thinkmoto:
Josh just use the axle puller i made. Don't even waste your time with the pickle fork. And if you really want to pull the axles out all you need is a big piece of brass to knock them out of the hub.
I've pulled about 4-5 duratecs...the pickle fork is the easiest flippin way to get the axles out...
I'm at about 3 and i made a slide hammer attachment just like the ford tool. One good whack and the axle is out. I did the pickle fork dance it sucks just like the pry bar suggestions eveyone gave me. To each his own..... but what do I know I'm an ass.
Originally posted by Thinkmoto:
i made a slide hammer attachment just like the ford tool. One good whack and the axle is out.
And it works SWEET, one hit with the slid hammer and they're out, great piece.
All in all the process of prepping the motor to come out(won't actually pull it till next saturday) took about 7 hrs working by myself and making 2-1/2 hr runs to the part store for tools. all the suggestions worked great, the tool for the fuel lines was definitly a help. I did realize while working that there are some steps on the ford CD that just plain aren't necessary, and some that need some more detail.
When Demon said difficulty was "Medium" he wasn't kidding, not bad at all.
I do have one question remaining, on my car (99) there is only one bracket for a hoist chain, the ford CD shows a tool to use for the 2nd point, but i
a. don't have the tool and
b. can't tell on the pucture where it's even suposed to go
If someone can post pics of the right way to get this thing in the air it would be greatly appreciated. Thaks for the help guys.
Josh
Just FYI for you folks pulling engines:
1.) Pulling through the top is superior due to leaving the subframe and rack and pinion alone! No realignment necessary and no broken bolts there! It is also easy because you only need a cherry picker, not a lift.
2.) When pulling the axles, if you have original axles and nuts then it might be simpler to leave the axles in the hubs.
All you do is pop the axle loose at the transmission as is stated above...use your method. Then, unbolt the lower controll arm at the ball joint from the spindle. Notice the brake caliper is removed and hung from the fenderwell.
Unbolt and pop loose the tie rod. Use a pry bar and hit the side of the joint and it will pop right out easy with no boot damage.
Finally, if you have an impact wrench, unbolt the top strut bolt from the tower with an 18mm socket. Then just lift the whole strut and axle assembly right out and lay it on the ground. Now you have simplified your work, prevented having to deal with axle nuts and the problems associated with having your wheel bearings go bad later due to bad preload on the wheel bearings when you pull the axles, AND made a whole lot more room to work on everything!
With practice, you can have both axle/strut assemblies off in 30 minutes and out of the way if you already have it jacked up and the wheels off.
Oh, then you can wire tie the brake caliper to the lower control arm so it doesn't continue to pull on the rubber hose.
I did it the same way Tom mentioned. There is no point in tearing apart the axles and disrupting the preload on the bearings. This way is a bit quicker as well since you have to pop the axles out anyway. Plus you do not have to buy more parts this way. (2 new $5 nuts
)
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I did it the same way Tom mentioned. There is no point in tearing apart the axles and disrupting the preload on the bearings. This way is a bit quicker as well since you have to pop the axles out anyway. Plus you do not have to buy more parts this way. (2 new $5 nuts )
Yeah i told Josh just to leave the axles in no use in removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed or replaced. Glad to hear the puller worked sweet for you. It was worth the whole 5 minutes at work making it
I already had the suspension ripped out as it's being swapped anyway. Pilled the knucle\axle out whole insted of seperating them for the reasons stated above.
I'm still confused as to where to hook the pas side of the chain ifd someone can give me pointers there.
Josh
Once i get the chanin hooked up i'll snap some pics for refrence since this is in the sticky now
there should be a lift "eye" behind the rear valve cover,towards the ps res,and ecu wiring harness
Originally posted by tour96se:
there should be a lift "eye" behind the rear valve cover,towards the ps res,and ecu wiring harness
Not there man(i've looked with a light already). I have 1, and it's right by the water pump.
Originally posted by pole120:
Originally posted by tour96se:
there should be a lift "eye" behind the rear valve cover,towards the ps res,and ecu wiring harness
Not there man(i've looked with a light already). I have 1, and it's right by the water pump.
hmmm that wierd...i guess you could always wrap a chain around the exh manifold,i had to do that to my svt engine...cause come to think of it,mine didnt have a extra eye either, i took one off of my old duratec and put it on the new block so i could put it back into the car
Originally posted by pole120:
Originally posted by tour96se:
there should be a lift "eye" behind the rear valve cover,towards the ps res,and ecu wiring harness
Not there man(i've looked with a light already). I have 1, and it's right by the water pump.
pre 98's have those mounts...MOST post 98s do not. I qould just get a bolt with and eyelet back there...or bolt with chains...the bolt holding the front head lift point is the same size as the rear...pull it off and go to the hardware...i dont think i need to tell you to get at least 8.8
Originally posted by warmonger:
Just FYI for you folks pulling engines:
1.) Pulling through the top is superior due to leaving the subframe and rack and pinion alone! No realignment necessary and no broken bolts there! It is also easy because you only need a cherry picker, not a lift.
... you dont need a lift to drop it out the bottom, i used a engine lift to lower it down onto a couple of creepers,made sure the jackstands had the car high enough and than once the engine and subframe were dropped i just pulled the engine/subframe out from underneath the car..pretty easy,instal. was obv the opposite
Originally posted by pole120:
I already had the suspension ripped out as it's being swapped anyway. Pilled the knucle\axle out whole insted of seperating them for the reasons stated above.
I'm still confused as to where to hook the pas side of the chain ifd someone can give me pointers there.
Josh
Once i get the chanin hooked up i'll snap some pics for refrence since this is in the sticky now
I pull the upper intake manifold first. Then I support the engine and transmission with two jacks or a jackstand. Both roll restrictors must already be off.
Then I pull the engine support mount (right front) by first unbolting the support arm (4 nuts above PS pump).
Next, I remove the mount from the fender frame rail (three bolts)
Then after I remove the the transmission support mount (3 bolts on fender-frame and 3 nuts on trans top) I get a piece of chain that will connect to one of the studs on the engine mount above the PS pulley, and connect the other end to one of the studs on the trans where the old motor mount was that has enough length to provide a little slack for the hook. Of course it has to be big enough links to fit the studs.
These studs are 12mm and won't bend and it allows the engine to be supported about like it was designed, yet still allow you to rock it as necessary on bringing it out of the bay.
The only thing to watch out for is that the chain will pass right next to the fuel rail and touch it. I will put a little flex on it but won't hurt it as long as you insure it doesn't bind.
I've found this is the best what unless you have some professional hoist chain with all the fancy hookups. If you did, you probably wouldn't be asking right?
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Just FYI for you folks pulling engines:
1.) Pulling through the top is superior due to leaving the subframe and rack and pinion alone! No realignment necessary and no broken bolts there! It is also easy because you only need a cherry picker, not a lift.
... you dont need a lift to drop it out the bottom, i used a engine lift to lower it down onto a couple of creepers,made sure the jackstands had the car high enough and than once the engine and subframe were dropped i just pulled the engine/subframe out from underneath the car..pretty easy,instal. was obv the opposite
Well, in my opinion that is just way too hard!!!! What kind of jack system did you use to lift it back up? If you used an above hoist to do it then it really seems like added work.
You do realize you have to realign the car right afterwards right? You have added reconneting the steering system as well? Of course, you don't need to undo the PS system but that is a whole two more minutes and a couple of baggy's with rubber bands.
Granted, if you have a lift for the car, then this method would be downright EASY, and would be the only way I recommended doing it!! But, at home with just jack stands it becomes the less desirable of the two options.
Again, IMHO.
why would an above jack be any harder...just slid the engine under the car with the subframe..drop. the chain into the engine bay and hoist it back up...really easy,and as far as the steering its only one bolt on the bottom of the colum,inside the car..i guess i should try doing it from the top this summer when i put the three liter in...does anyone have any suggestions for getting the shift rods discon. from a ten year old tranny?
For the rod shift you need a lot of
+
Originally posted by 96BlackSE:
For the rod shift you need a lot of
+
Yes, that part is certinly a pain.
Originally posted by 96BlackSE:
For the rod shift you need a lot of <PBBlaster>
+
<hammer>
x11tybillion. Took us 3 hours working on mine to get it loose, thinking of everything in the book and then some (like a sawzall). What a nightmare. It finally gave way. The rod shift trannies are nice but they sure are a bizzatch to get out
Actually, I owned a 95 SE and I don't think the rod shift trannies are all that nice. They work, but were always much slower shifting and more balky. The shift feel is/was much better on a cable shift, comparing new to new that is.
Then of course, if your shift forks start binding the rod shift is better. However, replacing my shift forks brought back the like-new shifting and since I haven't used ATF anymore in my transmission, I haven't had anymore issues with binding forks.
So I'd say that other than binding shift forks, the cable shift is superior in speed and feel.
My Opinion after owning both types brand new.
Got it out today, not too hard at all, I'll take pics of the chain arangement i used for those tht need it. I'll be picking up the other lifting eye bracket on my next trip to the bone yard.
Thanks to all,
Josh
Started on my 4th pull today. Actually I did a bit of Bk's car too so I guess 4.5. They only get easier & easier the more you do them and figure out little tricks.
Originally posted by warmonger:
Actually, I owned a 95 SE and I don't think the rod shift trannies are all that nice. They work, but were always much slower shifting and more balky. The shift feel is/was much better on a cable shift, comparing new to new that is.
Then of course, if your shift forks start binding the rod shift is better. However, replacing my shift forks brought back the like-new shifting and since I haven't used ATF anymore in my transmission, I haven't had anymore issues with binding forks.
So I'd say that other than binding shift forks, the cable shift is superior in speed and feel.
My Opinion after owning both types brand new.
well having driven my fathers 95 which we got with 9k on it and my 95 LS which we got with 83k and compairing it to our 99s which we both picked up with around 60k on them I have to say the rod shifter has much better feel then the cable shifters. the rod shifter to me has a more positive, connect feel then the cable. stock for stock I really didn't notice a difference in shifting speed since the shifters are of similar lengths and similar in shape. now a cable shifter with the steeda shifter, as the second thing I put into my car is much improved. that is definately faster to shift but still lacks the possitive feel the rod shifter gives
I snapped a picture of where i hooked the chain on the rear bank of the motor. I'll post pics tonight or tomorrow.
Josh
I know you've already got this thing out Pole, & I know i''m late to the discussion, but i've done this 7 or 8 times b/n the 3 tours i've got, all through the bottom. I'm going to add my opinion for the sticky, for the record i've never tried it from the top & probably never will, seems like too much work. BTW I've got 2 CSVT's both EO's both had the 2nd eyelet, my 98 SE doesn't.
When I pull one I drop the radiator just to be safe, remove the strut tower nuts , remove battery box for room to maneuver, pull power steering resevoir off of firewall and tie to engine, fuel lines, throttle cables, various wires, drop exhaust, break mounts & subframe bolts lower struts & all. Then you drag it from under the car & work on the whole assembly where you have room. Sounds alot simpler to me. Of course, you have to bleed your brakes when you put it back together, but thats the only real diff. Remove bolts from front & rear roll restictors & lift engine & trans up slightly & pop axles out, careful not to overextend your axles, 18 degrees I think. I did all of this w/ 2 sets of jackstands, one set is homemade so they're taller, 1 regular floor jack, 1 cherry picker. I can have everything dropped out of this thing in less than 2 hours this way. 1st time I did it it took 6! If i get up to my dads shop I'll take pics of my SE, Its torn down like this right now. I'm not going to say my way is better, but to me it seems easier, & since my tours are falling apart I get alot of practice this way!
How in the world can that be easier than seperating the ball joint, pulling the axles, disconnecting fuel lines and all electrical connections, dropping the rad. (optional) and removing the ypipe. Pulling it out the bottom is just insane to me w/o a lift. You have to realign the subframe, deal with power steering and brakes etc.
Its all a matter of opinion I guess there Todd, but the subframe alignment is not rocket science, & if you remove the power steering resevoir & place it on the engine then you don't have to fool w/ it at all. Brakes are no big deal either. You mean that you've never had to have a car realigned after pulling the ball joints & etc. Not to mention damaging the rubber boots on ball joints & tie rod ends. Pick your poison I guess!
Originally posted by OB1:
Its all a matter of opinion I guess there Todd, but the subframe alignment is not rocket science,
I know. You can use a deep well socket. I've done them when doing just the trans and hanging the drivers side down.
Originally posted by OB1:
You mean that you've never had to have a car realigned after pulling the ball joints & etc. Not to mention damaging the rubber boots on ball joints & tie rod ends. Pick your poison I guess!
Nope. All you do is use an air hammer and seperate the split in the knuckle. Just grab a good pry bar and the bj will pull right down from the knuckle. For tie rods you just undo the nut and tap it up with a hammer. No damage to anything or need to realign.
LOL, are you in sales Todd? You're trying to sell OB1 on pulling his motors from the top. I say, if he can do it in 2 hours, he's doing alright for himself.
Mark
To each his own. He's making it sound as if taking it out the top is more difficult which it's not for the do it yourselfer.
I wasn't trying to make it seem that way to anyone else, just saying It seems that way to me! I'll tell you what, the next time I have to do It I'll pull it from the top, b/c I haven't heard anyone say they've done both, then I'll have a better opinion.