Look Quickly - A 13 Second NA Contour

The funny thing is that it is a straight 3.0. All hail the twEECer.

I went to the track myself Friday. The funny thing is Greg you would have beaten me. I'd like to blame the 90 degree weather or the 1100 feet above sea level. Could even be the blown out exhaust gasket at the head. The fact is I need practice at 1/4 mile driving.

I tried 2nd gear launch. It didn't work for me. 2.58 '60 foot. On most of the runs the torque pulled the car out of gear. So I'd get to 5k and then I'd be in neutral hunting for 2nd.

Guess I'll fix the leak and keep trying to emulate my hero...DemonSVT.

Nice driving. I too would like to know the weight of your car. Also, any tips on setting the gtech up to be reliable/accurate? I've had mine out of my car for months after getting tired of not finding a decent place to run a ~17sec 1/4 mile.

I'd like to see what you could do in a srt4,, I know it would certainly be better than the drivers you saw at the track.

Nice work Greg! Hopefully my hybrid will be about where you are!

Originally posted by Keyser:
The funny thing is that it is a straight 3.0. All hail the twEECer.

Correct that is.

Are you all ready for the big kicker...

Full Oval Port 3L (5/02) with the SVT cams
Final Compression is around 9.8 to 1

~~

The mid range on my car is amazing. There is no waiting to get into the power.

I updated my profile and website with the changes I did. There are still pages I have to upload when I work out webspace. (basically lots of pictures about porting the oval port heads)

You've outdone yourself yet again Greg. Good stuff.

And them times are at KCIR to boot. Hate that track.

-J

Almost forgot... I'd love to see that purty dyno graph which I know you possess....

-J

Day-um! Nice car and nice driving! Basically a straight 3L with a TwEECer you say? I may have to go start running my CSVT hard around in right hand circles on a skidpad to be able to justify to The Wife the need for a new motor!

Then again, with this many miles on it and the way I fully utilize it's potential on a daily basis (some may say abuse it) I think this motor may never die...

Scott

Originally posted by advocate:
First off...

What is the weight of the car in its current form?

What RPM are you shifting at for each gear?

Where can I find this robotic arm and leg combo to install in my car?

Did you get this on video perhaps?

Congrats!

I don't know how much my car weighs. I do know it weigh a good 125lbs less then when I got it.
An educated guess would put it about 2925 at race weight (I.E. minus spare/jack/baby seat/etc)

My shifting powerband is roughly 4500-7300 rpm.
I got my best 60' and 330 times by shifting to 2nd very early because there is NO wheel hop, just spin at WOT in 2nd.

After that I used about 7300 as a shift point. That's about 6700rpm on the stock tach

I shift by ear and the S-AFC tells me it's 7300ish. It's really quite an outstanding gauge pack. Which brings me to another thing I figured out but I'll tell you all later when it's 100%.

Yes my patented (4006741971) air shifter technique shifts very quickly when the cables let you. That's one thing I think the early models have there. I bet the damn shifter rods don't "stretch" when you shift quickly.

If I had those I suppose I'd be needing chrome moly shifter rods then.

Gives me hope. Hmm, small turbo and tranny work. I would be well into 13s or better with my race weight of ~2700lbs. And with the CF hood on its way, this weight is only gonna keep dropping.

Originally posted by JVT:
And them times are at KCIR to boot. Hate that track.

-J

I will admit I could not have asked for better weather. It was mid to upper 50's and humidity in the 60's. That's a blue moon around here.

The track is much better since they resurfaced the entire thing. No more side to side high speed dodging.
It is actually LEVEL too!!!
You don't roll back out of the lights either.

great times....

Awesome times man.

You know, its funny. Someone actually let the cat out of the bag on another forum while defending our cars. (DaveB, you get mad respect in my book.)

He mentioned in passing about the 3L and I thought, gee, this cat doesn't know what he's talking about. I guess he did.

-R-

Excellent times. Damn time we finaly see some good NA numbers. What are you dynoing @ wheels. Congrats

Wow.

Are you sure this wasn't on a Canadian track?

Way to go. Most impresive.

Originally posted by advocate:
Where can I find this robotic arm and leg combo to install in my car?

i got your robotic arm right here

awesome times ive been wanting to pull my hybrid and run the escape engine you just added more fuel to the fire.

Whoa, great times! Just wondering, with the oval head ports, are you still using the 2ndaries, or did you remove them? (you're still using the SVT uim/lim, right?)

Hurry up and dyno that beast!

nice times!

im trying to get mine down there but our track in hawaii is absolute CRAP! every racer out here has the half-second rule compared to mainland racers, but with that im almost there with the NA 3L hybrid. just waiting on the tranny install to be complete.

I guess you know everything for a reason...

its nice to see people finally getting into the 13s...

All motor 13's? dude you are my new idol...

gives me hope

Well done Demon, it is great to see 3L's getting into the 13's. I wish I could have seen the look on the faces of the SRT4 and lightning owners....

What kinda power do you reckon your putting out?

We'll it is almost April, so I am not buying it -even with the times slips, which are illegible.

Click on the slip to get a more legible look.

Also, what in the world does "almost April" mean in terms of justifying belief?

Originally posted by JaTo:

Wow.

congrats demon!

Quote:

We'll it is almost April, so I am not buying it -even with the times slips, which are illegible.

So you think this is an April fools joke eh? You know he made 14.6 on his 2.5. Six tenth's with a full motor swap is not that unbelievable. Not to mention the upgrade in tuning that he has.

wow, i must say, Im very jealous! I bet your putting out close to 280-290 crank hp. Congrats Greg! I bet the look on that LS1 owners face was priceless!

Frikin awesome!!!

Now I HAVE to start saving up for a 3L

... and in retrospect it should've been obvious you were switching to a 3L when you posted a comment once about "I have had both a 2.5L and Oval Port 3L engine apart ..."

I would love to see what happens at a cooler/lower track. You need to get some drag radials too. Before I looked at the slip I thought you were talkig an 1/8th mile track. Outstanding Job!!

.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

great job Demon! Now lets get a how-to on the run.

j/p

Congradulations!!!

Originally posted by e1flakedsvt:
Congradulations!!!

What he said but spelled correctly.

Simply amazing! Shows the power you can tap from these duratec porche designed engines!!

Can we use your car as a mascot and go kill all those "i am a badd a$$" GTP owners? hehe

Originally posted by svtjeff:
.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

You do realize that he has ALOT more than just a 3L going on with that car don't you?? (LSD, headers, true duals, and lots lots more)

When you consider that a well driven CSVT can do ~15.2 off the showroom floor, a seriously built car with a 3L posting in the 14.00 range is perfectly realistic. Plenty of other 3L/LSD people have posted in the low 14 range as well so I don't see how this is so unrealistic.

Props to Demon on the mad awesome times! Please post some Dyno's real soon!!

Originally posted by svtjeff:
.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

Hey Noob-
do a little research and READ what DEmon has done thus far. . .it's MORE than realistic. . .Congrats Demon on your secret project. . .very nice numbers. . .I'm thinking you're easily putting down 220fwhp, but GET A DYNO!!!

Suneil

How many runs have you made at the track ? You do not pick up that much time by simple exhaust mods's - and the LSD does not add HP.............

Great times Demon, much respect.
Can I have a pic of your engine to hang on my garage wall?

Originally posted by svtjeff:
.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

you do realize demon was putting out about 240 crank hp on his n/a 2.5L right? And im sure his 3.0L motor is far from stock. Im sure he swapped over the msds headers, true duals, TRIPLE extrude honed intake, the tweecer, etc, etc. Check his profile for his lengthy list of mods. And you do realize that David Z ran also ran 14.1 with his n/a 3.0L? I believe every bit of it. More power to you Greg!

If you had the sense to click the link in his sig that says CHECK IT OUT you would easily be able to see that he has employed a large number of extra tricks to squeeze every last hp out of the car, a very extensive group of bolt ons, as well as very sophisticated tuning. Please do us a favor and think a little before you open your mouth.

Originally posted by svtjeff:
How many runs have you made at the track ? You do not pick up that much time by simple exhaust mods's - and the LSD does not add HP.............

Go read the FIRST POST and see how many runs he made.

I'd hardly call his exhaust mods "simple". Go to his site and look at his exhaust setup. There is not even 1" of the stock exhaust from headers to tips!

Of course the LSD dosent add power, it adds TRACTION. Which is essential off the line for good 1/4 mile times.

Go do some reasearch and then post some SOLID reasons why his times were impossible instead of just spouting ignorant comments and such.

Nice, and the first to use SVT induction and cams on mod'd oval port heads

I was hoping to be the first

I too would like to see your dyno run just to gawk at and drool over

Great job

Originally posted by svtjeff:
That track seems a bit optimistic

Quite backwards... KCIR is always the track that adds time to your normal timesheet. One great mod for running in K.C. is running at a different track. The track is down in a valley and usually around 100% humidity. It's gotten better since they resurfaced, but not that much better...

Originally posted by Swazo:
Nice, and the first to use SVT induction and cams on mod'd oval port heads I was hoping to be the first I too would like to see your dyno run just to gawk at and drool over

Great job

Jaiko has had his done for well over a year. Demon just did it better.

Awww, GEEZ! I messed myself!

So we're sayin' my ATX has an advantage - little/no wheel hop.

Seriously, Freakin' outstanding!!! Congrats!! I'm stunned, I just don't know what to say. Makes me wish I had the time & money to tinker a lot more.

(Falls to knees)..."I'm not worthy..I'm not worthy"..
Simply awsome!!!

actually David Z busted out a 13.7 once too :-)

Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:

Originally posted by svtjeff:
.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

you do realize demon was putting out about 240 crank hp on his n/a 2.5L right? And im sure his 3.0L motor is far from stock. Im sure he swapped over the msds headers, true duals, TRIPLE extrude honed intake, the tweecer, etc, etc. Check his profile for his lengthy list of mods. And you do realize that David Z ran also ran 14.1 with his n/a 3.0L? I believe every bit of it. More power to you Greg!

Greg's CSVT is definately a 13-second ride and he'd definately be quicker on a sea level track. KCIR is much better than it was prior to the resurfacing, but it's still far from being a "quick" or "optimistic" track. Granted the density air conditions Greg ran in were ideal (40s, ultra high baro, zilch humidity), but his car is still balls fast. He does has every NA mod under the sun, but it doesn't discredit the quickness of his CSVT. As of right now, he's the quickest NA 4-door in KC and I really don't see how I'll regain my title from him. He's just too quick now. I believe his prior best was a higher 14.6 nearly 96mph in much warmer and thicker air. The conditions yesterday alone were good for a few tenths and a couple mph.

My only bone to pick with Greg is that we were going to race next weekend at the track, but he pussed out and decide to go yesterday. I passed up a great day to race because that Jerky told me next week was race week

He knows I'm mad at him

Dave

Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:

Originally posted by svtjeff:
.6 decrease on a .5 liter increase is a bit unrealistic - tune or no tune. That track seems a bit optimistic - never, ever seen a stock car run anything close to 14.6 - regardless of mod's. Turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13's....

I can not wait to see what this car runs in the Spring Zing.........

you do realize demon was putting out about 240 crank hp on his n/a 2.5L right? And im sure his 3.0L motor is far from stock. Im sure he swapped over the msds headers, true duals, TRIPLE extrude honed intake, the tweecer, etc, etc. Check his profile for his lengthy list of mods. And you do realize that David Z ran also ran 14.1 with his n/a 3.0L? I believe every bit of it. More power to you Greg!

It's always funny to watch the backlash when a n00b picks on Greg... What's warmonger running now, anyone know? Imagine 8-9 psi in greg's!

suneil - I can read - and have done so in reference to his mod's. I would be willing to bet if I posted these numbers, Demon would be the first one to poke holes in it. I know more than you think - but do not profess to be the anointed one or anything close. Number of posts means you can type - nothiong more, nothing less.

I still say those are forced induction numbers.......

kontofosho - again - I suggest you read - my posts. Just because you can type menas nothing to me. I am glad to see you are confident in the numbers.....Speak lightly and carry a big stick........

svtjeff, Demon digs into EVERYTHING possible and knows what he's doing. His last reported time on a 2.5 was 14.6, then he added a few things. It is VERY feasible and I don't see why you're doubting this. Like it was said above, if you have valid points on why this is not feasible, try them, but you don't have a clue and are blindly posting because it's "too good to be true" to you. You're in denial...

Originally posted by svtjeff:
kontofosho - again - I suggest you read - my posts. Just because you can type menas nothing to me. I am glad to see you are confident in the numbers.....Speak lightly and carry a big stick........

Why are you directing that towards him? We're all against you.

He might know a thing or two since he currently owns 2 SVT's. One of which is turbo charged. You and your 32 posts can sod off.

svtjeff - we have read your comments and they are just ambiguous statements that have no real basis in fact or reality -"turbo/blower cars have trouble running in the 13s.", "I've never seen a stock car run 14.6 no matter how many mods" (nice oxymoron there too

)

At this point you're the turd in the punch bowl here unless you can actually post some solid reasons why Demon's times aren't real.

AMAAAAAAAzing times man! Congrats!

P.S. hahahaha "Turd in the punchbowl"

Originally posted by svtjeff:
...Just because you can type menas nothing to me...

Well said (except for "menas" which I assume you are referring to the word, "mean"). You do know this definitely applies to your situation and the unbased incredulity you are showing here, right?

Timeslips have been supplied. Is is going to take a inquisition panel compete with cameras to pop his hood and come back with dated proof to sate your thoughts? By all indications, Demon is a straight-shooter and if he says it's NA, I'm VERY inclined to believe him.

Wow! Congrats Demon. I'd like to see a dyno sheet as well.

Originally posted by JaTo:
Is is going to take a inquisition panel compete with cameras to pop his hood and come back with dated proof to sate your thoughts?

RECON is currently working on the situation.

Originally posted by Swazo:
Nice, and the first to use SVT induction and cams on mod'd oval port heads I was hoping to be the first I too would like to see your dyno run just to gawk at and drool over

Nope I was the second.

Jiako was the first (but he used an adapter plate IIRC) and Tom (last engine) the third.

So I guess I was the first to port the heads to match the split LIM.

No secondaries of course. I didn't miss them with the 2.5L and the 3L definitely doesn't need them.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by Swazo:
Nice, and the first to use SVT induction and cams on mod'd oval port heads I was hoping to be the first I too would like to see your dyno run just to gawk at and drool over

Nope I was the second.

Jiako was the first (but he used an adapter plate IIRC) and Tom (last engine) the third.

So I guess I was the first to port the heads to match the split LIM.

No secondaries of course. I didn't miss them with the 2.5L and the 3L definitely doesn't need them.

Your Duratec's numbers put my new boat to shame

Shoot for 12's next ?

Tim

I'll be the first to say I didn't believe the first time slip I got.

With screwing up and still trapping over 100mph I was in shock at the time and had a lot of disbelief.

Hence the 4-5 runs in 30 mins until I hit the 13.
My trap speeds did not alter more then .8 mph the entire day.

That's also why I listed some other cars there. They were not running anything spectacular. Most could not even hit posted "bench racing" numbers in the good air and most surely had some mods.
The NA cars got a nice boost do to the high barometric pressure. (Which I found out after the fact was a hair over 30!

) IIRC that is like ~100' below sea level (Think SAE plus 3-5%) and this is roughly a ~1000' track. (atmospheric air density is normally 1500' or worse at the track

)

It is a lot more common for lower elevation tracks (600' and below) to get good air density but it is a blue moon around here especially considering the fact the track is in a valley by the river.

The LSD's only real help in launching is I am no longer afraid of blowing up the stock diff when I get wheel hop.
Well that and no torque steer "when" the tires hook up.

My best launches came from barely using 1st gear at all and never at WOT.

I found that trick out when testing with the G-Tech. It would always give me much quicker numbers if I short shifted to 2nd. The engine has more then enough power to pull the car in 2nd from a lower rpm level now.

Obvious it was the right way to go because running nearly 82mph in the 1/8 mile is just insane for NA!!!

I probably could have had better numbers by starting in second and doing a high rpm clutch slip. However it would have been extremely harsh on the clutch and axles.

that fact YOU don't know how to run 13's n/a doesn't mean that no one knows how. i am new yet i learned very quickly that demon and a few others know way more than i do. in ww2 we didn't know how to build a good jet but that didn't stop the germans from builing the me262. additionally, those numbers aren't even corrected like the mags would do.

Awesome times Greg!

I to noticed posts by Dave B about you installing the 3liter, but thought he was out of his mind. Then again this is you we're talking about.....

I certainly am glad that I went to the track a couple times this year and bettered my previous runs therefore saving face for us that are F/I....

My biggest question is: Will there be a "crossover pipe" order going to the Demon household? I'm sure there will be and I'm already nervous of the outcome.

Keyser...time to order that "upgraded Disco Potato"!

Greg,

I just read your modifications list, and with all the stuff I've done to my car I'm still intrigued(always have been) with the mods you've performed, and where you've come with the car....great work man!

Now I've gotta get mine running quicker!

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
My best launches came from barely using 1st gear at all and never at WOT.

I can't believe your car just rips the 225s in first gear. That's just amazing.

When I punch it in first, I don't spin in the slightest. Of course, I'm about 40hp shy here at 7200ft...
I'm still envious.

Demon...Congrats on your new times! I'm very happy to see somebody finally getting that 3L to put out the times we all hoped that it would.

You're less than .5 seconds away from the F/I guys...watch out wavrdr!

That was a very slow LS1 that you raced. I've run that slow before...but only because I was still spinning in 3rd gear in my "slushbox".

that is fast.

Originally posted by Derk2000:
I can't believe your car just rips the 225s in first gear.

The 2.5L could roast them in 1st and a little into 2nd if I really tried.

The 3L flat out boils them if you breathe on the pedal too hard.

Even in 2nd gear the tires normally break free a bit as you pull past 5000rpm.
If you actually try (say going from cruise to WOT) you can roast them at will in 2nd too.

Heck if I really try I can spin them all the way through 3rd but that's not getting me anywhere though. Well except needing new tires.
It's "not" spinning them that I want.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

It's "not" spinning them that I want.

Yeah, but it sure is cool to have the capability to do so...

Yea no crap, I can barely get my tires to squeak in 3rd. A most impressive display of craftsmanship and dedication to a !4-door! sedan. Thats one heck of a sleeper. Congrats.

Originally posted by advocate:
First off...

What is the weight of the car in its current form?

What RPM are you shifting at for each gear?

Where can I find this robotic arm and leg combo to install in my car?

Did you get this on video perhaps?

Congrats!

its like he read my mind.....

now imagine how quick you would be if you were supercharged....*hint**hint*

my 3L roasts my 215 falken azenis (non sport) in first, the high stall converter helps here. i wished my 3L had the power of demons! although im still on stock intake (with just a kkm) stock single exhaust, and my "safe tune" chip

i got alot more potential here

demon, do you have any plans for a turbo or nitrous?

Congrats again Demon you are the Shizzle.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

The 3L flat out boils them if you breathe on the pedal too hard.

Even in 2nd gear the tires normally break free a bit as you pull past 5000rpm.
If you actually try (say going from cruise to WOT) you can roast them at will in 2nd too.

Heck if I really try I can spin them all the way through 3rd but that's not getting me anywhere though. Well except needing new tires.
It's "not" spinning them that I want.

Torque curve my ass; you've got a torque plateau you're playing with there.

Sick. I'd LOVE to see dyno sheets!

Congrats demon!!!

13s? You mean you are barely to the 13s?

Geesh... I can run 13s all day long if I wanted to. I'm usually in the 12s.

Nice runs man! Time for a helmet if you don't have one already.

Do you have pictures of the build? I would very interested in seeing them.

What kind of rubber are you running now? Stickier tires make all of the difference... Just keep away from the Kumho 712's, mmmmmmk? Those things went up through third gear, in a 235/40/17 size no less, on a car with a lot less HP/TQ than yours seems to have. What I wouldn't have given for some nice Firestone SZ50's...

Originally posted by mmars:
13s? You mean you are barely to the 13s? Geesh... I can run 13s all day long if I wanted to. I'm usually in the 12s.

Nice runs man! Time for a helmet if you don't have one already.

13s are 13s. As for the helmet, regardless of whether your running 19s or 9s, you wear a helmet at KCIR. It's a little rediculous.

Dave

Originally posted by mmars:
I'm usually in the 12s.

But it takes 2 extra cylinders and some F/I.

Originally posted by todras:

Originally posted by mmars:
I'm usually in the 12s.

But it takes 2 extra cylinders and some F/I.

Yeah....So....

Still great work Greg!

Not dissing the Cobra (want one,want one)

but you've just highlighted that is has 2 extra cylinders and a blower! and its only 1 second quickler down the 1/4! It just hammers home the achievement of Demons car!
That just puts it all in perspective! Congrads again Demon, you must have created a monster.
Now please go get that sucka dyno'd?

Originally posted by Ronan:
Not dissing the Cobra (want one,want one) but you've just highlighted that is has 2 extra cylinders and a blower! and its only 1 second quickler down the 1/4! It just hammers home the achievement of Demons car!
That just puts it all in perspective! Congrads again Demon, you must have created a monster.
Now please go get that sucka dyno'd?

But the Cobra is stock(I'm guessing) with warranty.

Quote:

Not dissing the Cobra (want one,want one) but you've just highlighted that is has 2 extra cylinders and a blower! and its only 1 second quickler down the 1/4! It just hammers home the achievement of Demons car!

You forgot to mention about 50% more displacement also....

I have respect for both cars. Demon's car is more of a what the hell just beat me?! The Cobra is more of an intimidator because everybody, well not everybody, knows what they are and they are afraid. That's why it's called the Terminator!

Originally posted by mmars:
13s? You mean you are barely to the 13s? Geesh... I can run 13s all day long if I wanted to. I'm usually in the 12s.

Nice runs man! Time for a helmet if you don't have one already.

Do you have pictures of the build? I would very interested in seeing them.

Hey...give the man some props....13's out of an N/A 3L is pretty impressive considering the difficulty in launching Contiques.

I can run 13.0's all day long....and 12's with DR's......so why don't you pick on someone your own size.....

Originally posted by Ronan:
Not dissing the Cobra (want one,want one) but you've just highlighted that is has 2 extra cylinders and a blower! and its only 1 second quickler down the 1/4! It just hammers home the achievement of Demons car!
That just puts it all in perspective! Congrads again Demon, you must have created a monster.

Well mmars just needs to learn how to drive his Cobra

I ran a 04 Cobra with less mods than him last time out at the track. This guy busted a severely traction limited 12.4@119mph with a 2.2 60'. This was going into a full on 20mph headwind which was sucking out about .2 ET and 3mph in trap. I watched another 03 Cobra roll up to the line and make an amazing pass of ~11.3@125mph. What was different in this 03 Cobra? It had an aftermarket SC, full exhaust, LIVE axle rear, 26" slicks. On the outside the car looked stock except for the drag wheels, front and rear.

I know Demon's car is fast as balls, but the difference between a high 13 at 101mph vs a car pulling traction limited mid 12s@119mph is not even funny. I was side by side with the 04 Cobra till about the 660' because he was all over the place. Once he hooked up, it was like I was standing still.

Dave

Can you guys elaborate on the intake manifold work you guys are doing? I know Demon removed his butterfly valves to somehow gain topend performance. The intake manifold setup I have on my Maxima utilizes the same kind of intake runner tuning with butterfly valves. I actually have a manual override switch to make the valves open at any rpm I want. I've noticed that switching the valves on any earlier that 5000rpms results in a pretty severe loss of lowend power. Take a look at my dyno when I flipped the switch at 4500rpms vs 5100rpms.

Why does the lack of the butterfly valves help the CSVT? Is there a loss of power below 4000rpms, but a gain above because the valves and rod are removed to reduce high rpm power?

Dave

Originally posted by livinsvt:

Originally posted by Ronan:
Not dissing the Cobra (want one,want one) but you've just highlighted that is has 2 extra cylinders and a blower! and its only 1 second quickler down the 1/4! It just hammers home the achievement of Demons car!
That just puts it all in perspective! Congrads again Demon, you must have created a monster.
Now please go get that sucka dyno'd?

But the Cobra is stock(I'm guessing) with warranty.

Nope, look at his sig. It's modded! Geez ur slow mmars

J/K.

Originally posted by Dave B:
Can you guys elaborate on the intake manifold work you guys are doing? I know Demon removed his butterfly valves to somehow gain topend performance. The intake manifold setup I have on my Maxima utilizes the same kind of intake runner tuning with butterfly valves. I actually have a manual override switch to make the valves open at any rpm I want. I've noticed that switching the valves on any earlier that 5000rpms results in a pretty severe loss of lowend power. Take a look at my dyno when I flipped the switch at 4500rpms vs 5100rpms.

Well the 3L with oval port heads that he's sporting now doesn't have secondaries from the factory. It doesn't need them because of more displacement and tq. A few people have removed them from their 2.5. Makes them a total dog below 3800 though. Their argument is that they never drive down there anyway.

They were engineered for a reason. To increase low end.

Originally posted by Dave B:

Why does the lack of the butterfly valves help the CSVT? Is there a loss of power below 4000rpms, but a gain above because the valves and rod are removed to reduce high rpm power?

Yes.

I found without the secondaries the 2.5L took a very noticeable hit below 2500rpm. (I.E. tractor range

)

2500-3000rpm was a little weaker but nothing overly noticeable or unliveable.

Above 3000 rpm there was no loss.

Couldn't tell you what it gave on the top end but I would not be surprised if it was 5 FWHP or maybe more from 4000 to redline. (UIM, intake, heads, etc all play a part too)
Heck even if it was miniscule I don't have to worry about the POS IMRC fluttering or it closing every time you leave WOT.

That is all once you have the spark advance tuned in properly (KEY WORDS!!!)

Also you have to realize the my UIM is EH'd to the limit. That itself makes a change in the rpm range of the runners since it's altering their max flow ability and low speed velocity.

I strongly believe that mod alone allows for a much better power curve above 4000rpm. Especially with the larger 3L engine.
Yes the true duals with balance pipe are wonderful for fat midrange TQ and great top end HP but if the engine can't suck the air in to begin with you are not getting full benefit from all of your other mods.

I think I am now finally reaping the full benefits of the EHing. Though my plans were always to build a 3L so all my mods were done with that and other future projects in mind

Originally posted by incubusjunkie614:
now imagine how quick you would be if you were supercharged....*hint**hint*

Sorry to burst your bubble but this project was designed "Specifically" to be the antithesis of the Vortec S/C.

Why is that you ask???

Because I did an entire car upgrade for just the cost of the S/C alone!!!

$1200 Engine (near bullet proof - bullet proof with a accusump!)
$1350 MTX (bullet proof)
$650 Bilstein struts & springs

$3200 total spent for a car that will likely hand any S/C beast it's ass on the track. (Okay so I had some mods to start with but so do most cars when they get a S/C

)
Definitely on a road course since the midrange power of the 3L kills any S/C car. Throw in the fact I did LSD, flywheel, struts & springs among other things for the same cost it would not even be close!
Hell my 2.5L was fast on bald stock tires even! Just ask the guys I beat by over 5 seconds a lap.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by Swazo:
Nice, and the first to use SVT induction and cams on mod'd oval port heads I was hoping to be the first I too would like to see your dyno run just to gawk at and drool over

Nope I was the second.
Jiako was the first (but he used an adapter plate IIRC) and Tom (last engine) the third.
So I guess I was the first to port the heads to match the split LIM. No secondaries of course. I didn't miss them with the 2.5L and the 3L definitely doesn't need them.

I meant using the SVT cams, didn't Tom use 3L cams? Did Jiako port the heads aswell?
I'll be using SVT cams aswell and I will be porting in the same way. There was no way I was sticking with a hybrid after seeing what Tom put down, and now you just made me feel a whole lot better about the ability of this route in NA form

Another good thing is that you'll be putting the SPEC stage I clutch to a good test.

Man it really pays to do all the work yourself!!!

I would've guessed you spent twice as much on all the mods youve done to your car

Originally posted by bnoon:
What kind of rubber are you running now? Stickier tires make all of the difference...

225/50 G-Force KDW

They give good grip for a street tire actually.

I have a set of 225/50 Nittos on a set of E0 rims sitting on a shelf in my garage. As hind sight normally is I now wish I had tried them for my first time out. It's quite possible I could have hit the fastest Contour time ever much less best NA time.
The street tires planted 2.2's like it was nothing thanks to all the TQ but those are 2.2's coming from horrible wheel hop and wheel spin.
Now "I doubt the platform would have handled it" but if I had a little more traction sub 2 60' times were there for the taking.

It's bad when your best launch (2.17) comes from walking the car out at idle then shifting to 2nd.

The 330' time slowed in comparisson though.

I actually haven't ran my car since I added the x-pipe, chip, pulley, etc. 12s was running stock.

--Matt

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
The street tires planted 2.2's like it was nothing thanks to all the TQ but those are 2.2's coming from horrible wheel hop and wheel spin.
Now "I doubt the platform would have handled it" but if I had a little more traction sub 2 60' times were there for the taking.

It's bad when your best launch (2.17) comes from walking the car out at idle then shifting to 2nd. The 330' time slowed in comparisson though.

Haha, now that you some real torque, you get to experience the fun of trying to launch with it. I get the same exact kind violence off the line as you do. I usually launch around 3500-4000rpms and slip the clutch to get rolling and release it as I'm feeding the gas. My goal is to stay above 3000rpms. My launches always consist of spin and nasty wheelhop thru most of 1st. The wheelhop is usually bad enough to make my exhaust clank the bottom of my car. Depending on the prep of the track, I either bark them hard into 2nd or I get a odd silent spin that feels very much like a clutch slipping (it's not though). Then it's a quick chirp into 3rd. All my lower 2.2 60 foots have had nasty wheelhop. One of these days it's going to munch my tranny or a mount.

We need to stop kidding ourselves and get some DRs.

Dave

Demon,

I'm interested to know if you port-matched your LIM to the oval head ports, or did you leave your LIM split-port? If that's the case, what gasket did you use?

*edit* OK, I just read your car's profile & if I'm understanding correctly, you "ovalized" the split ports, yes?

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by bnoon:
What kind of rubber are you running now? Stickier tires make all of the difference...

225/50 G-Force KDW

They give good grip for a street tire actually.

I have a set of 225/50 Nittos on a set of E0 rims sitting on a shelf in my garage. As hind sight normally is I now wish I had tried them for my first time out. It's quite possible I could have hit the fastest Contour time ever much less best NA time.
The street tires planted 2.2's like it was nothing thanks to all the TQ but those are 2.2's coming from horrible wheel hop and wheel spin.
Now "I doubt the platform would have handled it" but if I had a little more traction sub 2 60' times were there for the taking.

It's bad when your best launch (2.17) comes from walking the car out at idle then shifting to 2nd. The 330' time slowed in comparisson though.

Well man, get your a$$ out there with those nitto's on and cut some better times.

Got any engine spec numbers? i.e. intake port sizes? Head intake/exhaust port sizes? Valve sizes(If you used different valves). I've been planning something like this for a while. But I've decided to mod up the Cobra. For less than $1000 I've probably added around 100 HP to her. I'll know for sure when I put her on a dyno. For now I'm pretty much finished modding her.

So it's time for the Contour and I want to do a complete 3.0L swap like King Demon, but do a different intake and cams. So any specs you wanna give away, I'm listening.

--Matt

Originally posted by mmars:

Got any engine spec numbers? i.e. intake port sizes? Head intake/exhaust port sizes? Valve sizes(If you used different valves). I've been planning something like this for a while. But I've decided to mod up the Cobra. For less than $1000 I've probably added around 100 HP to her. I'll know for sure when I put her on a dyno. For now I'm pretty much finished modding her.

So it's time for the Contour and I want to do a complete 3.0L swap like King Demon, but do a different intake and cams. So any specs you wanna give away, I'm listening.

--Matt

Uhhh...like the ones posted on his site and profile???

"Engine
5/02 3L Engine Block & Heads
Balanced Forged Billet Crankshaft
Sinter-Forged Connecting Rods with Clevite Tri-Metal Bearings
Ported & Polished Oval Port Cylinder Heads with 35mm Intake & 30mm Exhaust Valves
Head Intake Ports: 70mm x 33mm
Head Exhaust Ports: 50mm x 30mm
SVT Camshafts"

Originally posted by SVT Doood:

Originally posted by mmars:

Got any engine spec numbers? i.e. intake port sizes? Head intake/exhaust port sizes? Valve sizes(If you used different valves). I've been planning something like this for a while. But I've decided to mod up the Cobra. For less than $1000 I've probably added around 100 HP to her. I'll know for sure when I put her on a dyno. For now I'm pretty much finished modding her.

So it's time for the Contour and I want to do a complete 3.0L swap like King Demon, but do a different intake and cams. So any specs you wanna give away, I'm listening.

--Matt

Uhhh...like the ones posted on his site and profile???

"Engine
5/02 3L Engine Block & Heads
Balanced Forged Billet Crankshaft
Sinter-Forged Connecting Rods with Clevite Tri-Metal Bearings
Ported & Polished Oval Port Cylinder Heads with 35mm Intake & 30mm Exhaust Valves
Head Intake Ports: 70mm x 33mm
Head Exhaust Ports: 50mm x 30mm
SVT Camshafts"

Yeah...like those.

sweet man, I didn't even know you were putting in a 3L.

Pardon if i'm wrong, but didn't David Z run a 13.7 as well??

Originally posted by RTStabler51:
actually David Z busted out a 13.7 once too :-)

Demon,

Any chance you will hand me (being a S/C car) my butt on the track or road course? I'd be up for the challenge if you are.

Rick

Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Demon,

Any chance you will hand me (being a S/C car) my butt on the track or road course? I'd be up for the challenge if you are.

Rick

I smell a Spring Zing shootout. Should be some quick cars there. Who will be crowned drag queen

. Sadly not I

Originally posted by Swazo:
I meant using the SVT cams, didn't Tom use 3L cams? Did Jiako port the heads aswell?

Tom used the oval port cams. He did the bare minimum to match the oval heads the the split LIM.

Jiako used the SVT cams but some type of adapter plate between the heads & LIM.

I ported the head inlets in such I way it helped the fuel spray go to both valves. That was a key design idea I made sure happened. I know how badly the secondary valves get caked over and rob power so keeping fuel run across them will keep them clean.

I also wanted better fuel atomization. It seems it worked just like I had planned since the 2.5L was about impossible to tune below 2500rpm without the secondaries. No matter what I did it always ran very rich under light load and idle.
The 3L is the exact opposite and I am running 24lb injectors. It runs very lean at idle and light load. So much so I had to add 25% more fuel just to balance it out! Now it hovers just above stoich. (I like it a little lean)

Another thing of MAJOR note.
I have not consumed a drop of oil with the 3L and I have over 2500 miles on it. (Running 0W40 Mobil 1)
The extra head drains are certainly doing their job and not letting oil get pulled into the valve cover vents like the 2.5L is notorious for.
Even the PCV separator has not picked up more then an ounce of oil total as well. With the 2.5L it was always getting an ounce a week. Sometimes more if I spent lots of time in the high rpm range!

Originally posted by vudusvt:
*edit* OK, I just read your car's profile & if I'm understanding correctly, you "ovalized" the split ports, yes?

Nope. I figure eighted the ovals.

The tiny oval port inlets are horrible for airflow.

I'll have the pictures up eventually. The webspace I am going to put it on DOES NOT support spaces in the file names.

Renaming 50 files is not a problem.

Renaming every single HTML code entry for each one is a PITA. (I'm sure many of you know about differentiating code

)

I'll own you both on the road course!

Why does everyone act so surprised at this 13.9? After viewing his list of modifications (port work)and drivetrain mods it is no wonder he is running such good times! He still has room for improvment as well,especially launching which I cant imagine is very easy. One thing I did notice is the compression ratio, can you say "room for boost". Congrats on very consistant and stout numbers.

Originally posted by {Kontofosho}:
I'll own you both on the road course!

Can I play as well???

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by Derk2000:
I can't believe your car just rips the 225s in first gear.

The 2.5L could roast them in 1st and a little into 2nd if I really tried.

The 3L flat out boils them if you breathe on the pedal too hard.

Even in 2nd gear the tires normally break free a bit as you pull past 5000rpm.
If you actually try (say going from cruise to WOT) you can roast them at will in 2nd too.

Heck if I really try I can spin them all the way through 3rd but that's not getting me anywhere though. Well except needing new tires.
It's "not" spinning them that I want.

What are you doing to "roast" your tires in 3rd gear exactly? Im close to 200FWHP and running mid-lower 14's and going into 2nd I get some chirping(more than I did with the 2.5L) but not too much, but definitely no spinning in 3rd.. Just curious as to what you are doing right/wrong to get them to spin so much in 3rd?

Mark

Originally posted by wavrdr:

Originally posted by {Kontofosho}:
I'll own you both on the road course!

Can I play as well???

As long as you come to SZ!

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by vudusvt:
*edit* OK, I just read your car's profile & if I'm understanding correctly, you "ovalized" the split ports, yes?

Nope. I figure eighted the ovals.
The tiny oval port inlets are horrible for airflow.

I'll have the pictures up eventually. The webspace I am going to put it on DOES NOT support spaces in the file names.

Renaming 50 files is not a problem.

Renaming every single HTML code entry for each one is a PITA. (I'm sure many of you know about differentiating code )

Seven lines of code in perl..

Regular expressions are your friend.

www.perl.com

Tim
Proud member of the 'Learn Perl or Die' Association

Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
What are you doing to "roast" your tires in 3rd gear exactly? Im close to 200FWHP and running mid-lower 14's and going into 2nd I get some chirping(more than I did with the 2.5L) but not too much, but definitely no spinning in 3rd.. Just curious as to what you are doing right/wrong to get them to spin so much in 3rd?

I said I could "spin" them through 3rd. That just means I have enough power to "sustain" wheel spin into 3rd.

On a hard shift I only get a chirp in 3rd "at speed"

I can roast 2nd though if I actually try. Even at the track 2nd had a lot of wheel spin.

However like I said the entire goal in not to spin them.
I have learned to shift into second at a pedal position that generates very little wheel spin. Though again like I have stated it does sometime start to lightly break free as it passes 5000rpm or so. That's kind of cool though.

Not the power of a turbo mind you. I remember Tom said he had to watch the shift to 3rd or the tire's would light up occasionally.

I know I heard it several times on the phone.

That's part of the reason why our platform plateaus at a certain E.T. There is just too much power for the platform to put down in the first two gears. If it did hook the turbo'd cars would be knocking on the 12's if not in them.

Don't tell me you didn't put the Zetec final drive in there...

I don't ever wanna hear anyone complaining that you can't compare a car because it has larger displacement. What is this, a honda site or something?

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Yes my patented (4006741971) air shifter technique shifts very quickly when the cables let you.

Lol, i actually looked up this patent number

Originally posted by BlackCSVT:
Why does everyone act so surprised at this 13.9?

Just one. svtjeff.

Originally posted by bnoon:
Don't tell me you didn't put the Zetec final drive in there...

I'm guessing he didn't since he's bad mouthed it.

For what reason I'm not sure. Better times would be had.

Demon Destoried Every Contour at the autocross 2 years ago.. thats when he had the 2.5L. I was the second closes at 5 seconds off of him.. granted i only had a K&N.. But there where many others with alot more than just that.. I might have to go just to bring the SHO now

And where did this take place? He's never been to SZ.

Everything i've seen on the zetec drive is that the actual change is provides is minimal.

Originally posted by {Kontofosho}:
Everything i've seen on the zetec drive is that the actual change is provides is minimal.

Have you driven one?!!!

I like my zetec final drive. the change is far from minimal.

Originally posted by BStoneMega:
I like my zetec final drive. the change is far from minimal.

Certianly drops the RPMs down a notch. I wish I had one in both my cars. Bound to save some gas on the highway.

Originally posted by BStoneMega:
I like my zetec final drive. the change is far from minimal.

Agreed. The larger final drive doesn't add HP/TQ, but it broadens the fine line between bogging or spinning in first gear/second gear. That helps get the power to the ground easier and helps recovery when you do cross the line into spinning. Much like larger brakes don't stop the tire any faster, they just broaden the line between lock up and slowing down... Modulation...

Although with a 3L and supercharged (with a host of other mods) there just isn't enough "TQ-to-gear-to-tire" ratio available in 2nd or 3rd, even with the Zetec final drive pushing 245's around.

Originally posted by todras:

Originally posted by bnoon:
Don't tell me you didn't put the Zetec final drive in there...

I'm guessing he didn't since he's bad mouthed it. For what reason I'm not sure. Better times would be had.

I don't see how you can say better times would be had.

My 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear are stronger (more TQ multiplication factor) then with the Zetec gear. Therefore I get quicker acceleration and times.
I left out 1st and 5th as todras aimed this at 1/4 mile times even though I built my car for road racing & of course every gear would be stronger.

Also on a road course the 4.06 gear helps out as well since my TMF at any rpm is higher then with the 3.84 gearing. This is also part of the reason why touring cars often raise the gearing even more like Leo's 4.5 final drive.

Even with all that said we are only talking about a change of around 5% That's it folks.
5% less TMF is not going to make launching any easier really.
Also my last tire size switch (stock 215/50 to meaty 225/50's) was nearly a 5% change by itself or roughly the same as running 215/50's with 3.84's

Yes I think the Zetec final drive can still help but it is not going to make a major difference. For instance the power level of the turbo'd cars are still going to roast the tires with either gear set.

I appreciate the final drive in the upper rpm most. Switching to 4th at 100mph/7.5krpm is really nice.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Also on a road course the 4.06 gear helps out as well since my TMF at any rpm is higher then with the 3.84 gearing. This is also part of the reason why touring cars often raise the gearing even more like Leo's 4.5 final drive.

Have you ever seen the peaky power curve of most of those touring cars? No wonder they keep the shorter gearing. 3L = 20% larger engine with a lot braoder power curve. Broad torque curve needs more gear. 5% tire + 5% gear = a pretty good difference. For the cheap $100-$150 for the gears needed on top of setting up the trans with the limited slip already, I'm really surprised you found argument against it. There's also the Euro 1.8L D gearsets available too, though I can't remember their ratio...

Originally posted by bnoon:

Originally posted by BStoneMega:
I like my zetec final drive. the change is far from minimal.

Although with a 3L and supercharged (with a host of other mods) there just isn't enough "TQ-to-gear-to-tire" ratio available in 2nd or 3rd, even with the Zetec final drive pushing 245's around.

Hmmmmm

Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Hmmmmm

I'm surprised you have just claimed any sort of assocciation... I've been sworn to uphold the ban of information to the CEG regarding any such knowledge of said zzzzz's or cool's, including Hmmmmm's huh's and humprgh's. That is all.

Originally posted by todras:
And where did this take place? He's never been to SZ.

Never said he was... SCCA Event at Arrowhead Statium in Kansas City, MO.... Need a Date too?

Originally posted by SteedaSVT:

Originally posted by todras:
And where did this take place? He's never been to SZ.

Never said he was... SCCA Event at Arrowhead Statium in Kansas City, MO.... Need a Date too?

Originally posted by SVT Doood:

Originally posted by SteedaSVT:

Originally posted by todras:
And where did this take place? He's never been to SZ.

Never said he was... SCCA Event at Arrowhead Statium in Kansas City, MO.... Need a Date too?

Sign up sheet too, while you're at it...

i guess..

Originally posted by SVT Doood:
Sign up sheet too, while you're at it...

Consider this.

The 4 year running ESP regional champion driving his new 450/500 @ wheels Lightning on Hoosier racing slicks beat me by less then 1 second. (on a ~40 second course)

I likely would have beaten him by just having tread on my tires. I ran on nearly 30k mile stock KDW's.

No other SVT of any kind was close to my times. (closest Cobra was 3 seconds slower)

Take it that I'm a great driver and/or my car (nearly 2 years ago even) made great overall power. Either one is a feather in my cap.

Originally posted by bnoon:
I'm really surprised you found argument against it.

With my setup right now the 4.06 is definitely the better choice of final drives. There is absolutely no question about it.

The 3.84's would not help with launching and it would make every other gear a hair slower.

Also your rpm level after each shift will be lower. That will slow you down as well.

A S/C car could probably go either way. Most likely the 3.84's would be better because it effectively lengthens the powerband & a S/C car is really only great on the highway.
However the same could be said that the 4.06's get you up into boost sooner since the S/C has to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait for it's real boost. (I.E. using gears 1-3 or road racing)
The lower rpm shift drop means less boost after shifting and a hair longer to get back into it "comparatively"
I would think the longer legs (I.E. top end HP) should definitely out weigh that in the top few gears. However not in the lower gears.

A turbo car would benefit the most from it because of the monster flat torque curve. The loss in acceleration from prolonging each gear would likely be outweighed by having a greater TMF longer.
Also since the TQ curve is flat the lower rpm drop after shifting really makes little difference unlike an NA or S/C car.

That's about as nice as I can be about the POS Vorcrap setup.
Remember my whole goal was to spite it's existence.

well, I've had the vortech w/zetec final drive and in a few weeks I'll have a turbo with it. I'll make sure I pay attention to the low rpm feel. with the S/C the car was a dawg really bad below 2.5krpm. I wouldn't recomend the zetec final drive unless the car has mad balls way low.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I ported the head inlets in such I way it helped the fuel spray go to both valves. That was a key design idea I made sure happened. I know how badly the secondary valves get caked over and rob power so keeping fuel run across them will keep them clean.

I also wanted better fuel atomization. It seems it worked just like I had planned since the 2.5L was about impossible to tune below 2500rpm without the secondaries. No matter what I did it always ran very rich under light load and idle.
The 3L is the exact opposite and I am running 24lb injectors. It runs very lean at idle and light load. So much so I had to add 25% more fuel just to balance it out! Now it hovers just above stoich. (I like it a little lean)

Another thing of MAJOR note.
I have not consumed a drop of oil with the 3L and I have over 2500 miles on it. (Running 0W40 Mobil 1)
The extra head drains are certainly doing their job and not letting oil get pulled into the valve cover vents like the 2.5L is notorious for.
Even the PCV separator has not picked up more then an ounce of oil total as well. With the 2.5L it was always getting an ounce a week. Sometimes more if I spent lots of time in the igh rpm range!

OK now I've got a few questions:
1) How would an oval port 3L be affected if it was run WITH secondaries since you've described it without?
2) With the 2.5L running "rich" at idle or light load ... was this with or without secondaries? Does this mean I could increase my mileage by driving harder?

3)Does the better oil drainage of the 3L effectively prevent buildup in the manifolds then? (If I am understanding what you are saying correctly about the oil separator)

BTW ... you should post some videos of you and your car in action!

Originally posted by akrump47:
1) How would an oval port 3L be affected if it was run WITH secondaries since you've described it without?
2) With the 2.5L running "rich" at idle or light load ... was this with or without secondaries? Does this mean I could increase my mileage by driving harder?
3)Does the better oil drainage of the 3L effectively prevent buildup in the manifolds then? (If I am understanding what you are saying correctly about the oil separator)

BTW ... you should post some videos of you and your car in action!

1. It may work with an opened up UIM and changed IMRC point.
However IMO I really see little benefit gaining more power below 2500rpm unless you like cruising in your slushbox.

2. Without secondaries. The fuel atomization of the 2.5L was pretty bad at low speed and idle so it ran very rich. It was near impossible to tune. That was my "only" con to not having them. (cold weather start up was terrible

) Ever single other aspect was infinitely better for my driving style.
It's not remotely an issue with my 3L setup. (yes night & day opposite)

3. Yes it helps tremendously.
If no oil is "consumed" by the engine through the intakes they "said" build up will not occur.
Throw in the fact I have no secondaries (I/E horrid stagnant hot air) and fuel goes to BOTH valves and thus no build will occur and rob significant power.

My original Idea was to join both ports anyway for those reasons. Ford has since already done that with the tumble port (oval) heads so I just improved on their start.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
With my setup right now the 4.06 is definitely the better choice of final drives. There is absolutely no question about it.

The 3.84's would not help with launching and it would make every other gear a hair slower.

Totally disagree. The Contour chassis does not have enough room under the front end to fit any tire that will hook at higher power levels, slick or not. Explain how you feel that a second gear start *could* have provided better numbers (at the possible sacrifice of parts) but a slight shift in final drive would not provide some of the same effect?

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Also your rpm level after each shift will be lower. That will slow you down as well.

No, it won't. RPM split between shift changes are not effected by final drive changes. If you're spinning through second, and higher gears will stop the spinning sooner, who will get to point B first?

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

A S/C car could probably go either way. Most likely the 3.84's would be better because it effectively lengthens the powerband & a S/C car is really only great on the highway.
However the same could be said that the 4.06's get you up into boost sooner since the S/C has to waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait for it's real boost. (I.E. using gears 1-3 or road racing)
The lower rpm shift drop means less boost after shifting and a hair longer to get back into it "comparatively"
I would think the longer legs (I.E. top end HP) should definitely out weigh that in the top few gears. However not in the lower gears.

SC'ed 2.5L, yes, keep stock gears. SC'ed and NA 3L, no. Low RPM torque wins nothing but bragging rights on the dyno with this chassis because none of it can make it to the ground unless you're doing a higher gear roll on starting at low RPMs. Case in point, SZ02, I dynoed 45 more FWTQ than Worldtour's SC'ed 2.5L up through about 5,000 RPM. Later, he took off in front of me from a stop... after first gear stopped spinning for both of us, he was gone!!! Lot of good that torque did me.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

A turbo car would benefit the most from it because of the monster flat torque curve. The loss in acceleration from prolonging each gear would likely be outweighed by having a greater TMF longer.
Also since the TQ curve is flat the lower rpm drop after shifting really makes little difference unlike an NA or S/C car.

Agreed, for the most part.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

That's about as nice as I can be about the POS Vorcrap setup.
Remember my whole goal was to spite it's existence.

I like the Vortec. Nothing you can do about it.

Originally posted by Buckshot77:

Originally posted by wavrdr:

Originally posted by {Kontofosho}:
I'll own you both on the road course!

Can I play as well???

As long as you come to SZ!

Hey wavrdr....if you go...I'll go!

Originally posted by bnoon:
I like the Vortec. Nothing you can do about it.

I kinda like it too. (design issues aside)

My stock fd ends at 85mph. Bstone said his zetec ends at 100mph. Personally I'd take the hit on the very bottom (where traction is a problem anyway) to be able to spend most of the quarter in 3rd instead of having to be in 4th for 15+ mph. For auto-x I guess the stock would be better, but maybe having the zetec would allow you to do less shifting? (especially with the low-end torque of the 3l) I dunno.

Originally posted by bnoon:
1. Explain how you feel that a second gear start *could* have provided better numbers (at the possible sacrifice of parts) but a slight shift in final drive would not provide some of the same effect?

2. If you're spinning through second, and higher gears will stop the spinning sooner, who will get to point B first?

3. SC'ed 2.5L, yes, keep stock gears. SC'ed and NA 3L, no. Low RPM torque wins nothing but bragging rights on the dyno with this chassis because none of it can make it to the ground unless you're doing a higher gear roll on starting at low RPMs. Case in point, SZ02, I dynoed 45 more FWTQ than Worldtour's SC'ed 2.5L up through about 5,000 RPM. Later, he took off in front of me from a stop... after first gear stopped spinning for both of us, he was gone!!! Lot of good that torque did me.

1. Simply put it would completely eliminate the 1-2 shift during massive wheel hop/spin. On average this shift alone was costing me up to .5 seconds. Sometimes well over a second

5% less TMF would have made zero difference here. Heck maybe more wheel hop even since spin would be harder to generate. (I'd rather have spin then hop)

Also when comparing the TMF gearing in 2nd (2.14) & 4.06's to 1st (3.42) & 3.84 it is not even close.

2nd gear with the 4.06's has ~40% less TMF. That is a lot less then the ~5% decrease of 1st & 3.84's when comparing it to 1st and 4.06's.

What I am saying is 5% less TMF mean little to nothing in first gear and 5% less TMF in 2-5 means slightly slower acceleration comparatively without the tremendous power to support the longer duration powerband. (Like a turbo or even the S/C

on the highway)

2. Spin is not a tremendous problem in 2nd gear. It can be handled just by good driving ability. I'd rather have that or learn that then take away 5% from every gear because I can't/won't do either.

3. That's odd & the opposite of how I feel since I really feel my car makes incredible mid range TQ and that's why my times were so good. 2nd & 3rd gear are down right vicious from any rpm. I do most of my passing from 3-5k since I don't need to wind the engine up into the HP like the 2.5L

Not only that but if I wanted low end TQ (what I consider below 3000rpm) I would have left the IMRC operational. I bet it would make monster TQ "on a dyno" but we both know it's pointless. Heck I didn't even use it on the 2.5L Right...

I know you hated your tires and I can certainly see why! It sounds like you had more traction problems then I do.

For my current setup and fact I designed my car for road racing I know the 4.06's are the best choice for me.

Originally posted by 95Mike:
1. My stock fd ends at 85mph.
2. Bstone said his zetec ends at 100mph.

With the same 7500 redline and 25" tires...

4.06 in 3rd is ~95mph
3.84 in 3rd is ~100mph

Also if you shift before redline (a good idea

) it is more like 94 and 98 respectively.

Not a big difference really.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
I know you hated your tires and I can certainly see why! It sounds like you had more traction problems then I do.

Yeah, the Kumho 712's were hockey pucks. Never had a problem with hop though unless I really hammered it around a tight corner... which brings up something else... Any NVH police around your area? Ever think of trying solid mounts/restrictors? Or a torque strap? Both helped me out a ton!

Originally posted by bnoon:
NVH police around your area? Ever think of trying solid mounts/restrictors? Or a torque strap? Both helped me out a ton!

I have 100% solid roll resistors and slightly filled main trans and engine mounts.

We are taking ROCK HARD 94A urethane casting compound.

I also strengthed the front control arms a bit with it since everything was easily accesible.

The powertrain does not move at all under load. Yes NVH went up but who cares right... (mainly my turn signal stalk buzzes now

) I have a nice stereo anyway.

I don't get wheel hop on the street. Only at the track because they love VHT!!!
What I really need to do now is be all practiced up so my first few runs are my best. You know. BEFORE they lay down the 15 minute coats of VHT and heat... (sure the RWD cars love it though)
That way I can get in a good 4-6 passes right away and then stop before everyone else get's in line.

The problem I have with "hammering" it in the corner is now both tires spin instead of just one and I lose steering. (have to love FWD. NOT!)

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
The problem I have with "hammering" it in the corner is now both tires spin instead of just one and I lose steering. (have to love FWD. NOT!)

ive had a similar problem, i was going around a bend, uphill, punched the gas and the tires broke loose

this was a left turn, my front is going straight at a tree, i cut the wheels, even more out of control, im going at a telephone pole now, cut wheels again, and end up on top of one of them sewers that stick out the gtound like 6-8 inches

i was lucky, my car totally missed hitting the sewer, the way the ground was it was under my car but i didnt hit it, i did get lots of dirt in my pass side wheel

it doesnt help that my suspension is shot (if anyone wants to donate used svt suspension thats in decent shape, id gladly take it

) i cant afford suspension for a long time though

I've got some SVT front struts that may be OK. The rears are completly blown. I also have some parts of my ~80k mile GL suspension.

Anything you want, you can have. You can even have the blown rear struts if you like.

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You can even have the blown rear struts if you like.

Better weight transfer off of the line!

wow nice numbers and congrats!

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
The problem I have with "hammering" it in the corner is now both tires spin instead of just one and I lose steering. (have to love FWD. NOT!)

So is this a side effect of having an LSD then??

Oh - Russell I have my 80K SVT suspension taking up space in the garage and I'd be willing to part with it cheap. Springs are in good shape if you don't mind some MI surface rust

The struts are in varying condition ranging from "OK" to "totally blown"

Originally posted by bnoon:

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
You can even have the blown rear struts if you like.

Better weight transfer off of the line!

Maybe for the TA, not the tour

Originally posted by akrump47:
So is this a side effect of having an LSD then??

No that is a side effect of more torque, an LSD, and non-judicious use of said torque...

It just took learning a little different driving style.

Originally posted by DemonSVT:

Originally posted by akrump47:
So is this a side effect of having an LSD then??

No that is a side effect of more torque, an LSD, and non-judicious use of said torque...

I'm jealous. The only time I get that is in the snow :P

congrats demon, thats awesome

Demon,
Congrats...very cool!

If your cobra wants to have a more fair race, race my camaro...ill probably see you at cecil again sometime

Originally posted by ezsvt:
Demon,
Congrats...very cool!

If your cobra wants to have a more fair race, race my camaro...ill probably see you at cecil again sometime

I'll be there on April 24th... So Bring it!!!!

--Matt

Originally posted by mmars:

Originally posted by ezsvt:
Demon,
Congrats...very cool!

If your cobra wants to have a more fair race, race my camaro...ill probably see you at cecil again sometime

I'll be there on April 24th... So Bring it!!!!

--Matt

AIS3 -- I plan on attending! Hopefully I can get my roll-cage in before then-- my visit to mustangs vs. camaros at island dragway two weeks ago with the new setup was cut abrubtly short when I got a swift kick in the a** off the track.

Erik

Greg,

That time is so good I heard about it all the way over here!

Congrats and keep up the good work. I don't have time for my usual long winded messages but I hope that all of you keep on pushing the limits.

Tom

Congo-rats on the 13's! That's what I like to call a disgusting display of horsepower

Originally posted by onosway:

girls wanna be with you, guys wanna be you...

Uh, wow. Haven't really been on in awhile - what a nice surprise!! Holy cow!
Now I'm afraid to post my dyno results from this weekend...

Hey Greg, I'm getting pretty disgustipated with how this 3.0L is turning out and I'm thinking about doing another one myself, full 3.0L swap this time. Um, can I have your number?