Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives
Okay, most of you know that my car is running stock internals and that I'm on my third iteration of turbo piping and now doing my own tuning.

I've been talking about how fast it was and how fun to drive and due to the fact that I may be selling this car soon, I decided to give it a few dyno runs.

The only negative about the dyno runs is that while the dyno operator was running the car, and I was video taping the runs, I realized that my cheap ball and spring boost controller is not working like it should. So I'm runnin a 3.83psi spring in my wastegate, which is pretty small, but then I'm cranking the boost up with the ball and spring controller. I was going to dyno at 12psi today but it turns out the the controller will spike up towards 12 for a second then it drops back down to somewhere between 0.6 and 0.7 bar pressure. I kept turning the spring up and even though it would seem to make a small improvement, the pressure kept settling back to right about the same, 0.6-0.7bar range. That's around 10 psi for you Folks who are challenged By SI units!
So I don't know whats's wrong with the ball and spring, but maybe its time I either make a better one or get off my but and buy a real dual stage boost controller! It would have been a much better day because I was running lower pressure than I wanted, AND I was running rich above 5600rpm. A real safe fuel level, but I'm loosing probably 15-20 HP in the top end because of it.

Oh yes, the results!! On a standard day like today 68F 30 inHG, 8-10% humidity ---- yes yes, back to the results.

356 wHP/334 wTQ

Then on run number 5 (in a Twenty Minute time span), I pulled off the ball and spring controller and did one on the stock wastegate pressure which is 3.83 (rated) but after an intercooler pressure drop of around 0.5psi it is about 3.33psi:

250wHP/220wTQ


So I'm pretty happy on my stock pistons and rods that can't take 300 crank HP!

The honest prediction with the Air Fuel leaned out a bit on top woiuld be around 370 wHP and with the 12psi I wanted to run it is estimated to be around 385-390 wHP. I wanted to run 14psi but I won't do that until I get a successful run at 12psi...... 14psi is expected to be comfortably over 400 wHP but hey, talk is cheap right?
Oh yeah,

I almost forgot the most important part...the proof.
I'm sure 100 people will be calling me out so I guess I'd better throw this up.

And by the way, I've dyno'd this car in four different states and all of my dyno's have been fairly consistent with the conditions I've stated. This is a pretty good indication of the validity of the power estimates AND the durability of the engine that I built.


Glad to see these results. Don't sell the car until you have done another dyno run with a better Boost controller and 12 psi.
I KNEW IT!!!!! The stock rods handle power!!!!!
Shizzaamm!!! Good work Tom!

Mark
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoĆ¢ā??Ā¢:
Glad to see these results. Don't sell the car until you have done another dyno run with a better Boost controller and 12 psi.




We'll see. The person who buys it may want to have some room to improve don't you think? I think it would be almost boring to buy a car I couldn't do anything with.

I didn't really want to spend a really long time on the dyno yesterday, only an hour on including setup time with five runs.
If I had more time, I'd have fixed that controller to see what was really happening. I could do it later, but you know, I'm more than confident about the power level and I pretty much feel that the stock block is 400 wHP capable with carefull inspection of internals during buildup. You know, I took lots of measurements and the tolerances on the pistons in the bores, the rod journals, all of it was really tight. Ford seems to have pretty damned good quality control when it comes to their engines (Normally) So with good measurements, good rod bearings, carefull tuning and quality controllers (i.e. not my ball and spring controller) you can have a very respectable car and not be concerned about blowing your motor.

This also eliminates all the grief associated with Block Honing for forged pistons and ring sealing, Saving you Dollars and down time.
Originally posted by stilov:
I KNEW IT!!!!! The stock rods handle power!!!!!


Alot of stock parts can handle the power, I think Tom has the tuning nailed down and that helps his power level and stock parts longevity.
Posted By: Swazo Re: Just a little update at 0.68 bar.......... - 01/27/06 03:06 PM
GREAT numbers Tom! I am disapointed about the craptastic MBC, I'd like to see what 12psi would have put down

Have you given up on the boost controller that is wheel speed dependant? That would be about as good as it gets for our platform
No I haven't but I'm having some issues with the design, not the least of which is laziness!

Great numbers Tom! I think with about 10 psi im around 330 whp, 330 wtq.
Originally posted by beyondloadedSE:
Great numbers Tom! I think with about 10 psi im around 330 whp, 330 wtq.




Thanks man! You of course have lower compression and can ultimately go much higher....as we soon expect...RIGHT??
Thanks, considering your motor I'll take it as a nice compliment.
Add some fuel before you melt that thing.
Nice #s Tom. And yes.
Coool. I'll give you my two cars and $2500 for it. Deal?
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Shizzaamm!!! Good work Tom!




X2
Originally posted by Keyser:
Add some fuel before you melt that thing.




Nope, that was a tailpipe meter, it is after the catalytic converter. The wideband is showing I have plenty of fuel, around 12:1. It is actually getting too rich in the top end. I like to run my turbo engine at 12.5:1 on 93 octane.

As in YES, it is Catalytic Converter equiped...just so any of you guys who think that a catalytic converter won't let you make power.
Originally posted by LocoGSR:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Shizzaamm!!! Good work Tom!




X2




Thanks for all the props guys, and the advice Keyser. Hard work, planning, and experience pays off.

Kremit, I think it would take four or five of your cars and then we could talk

At least 10grand and your two cars....
hehehe

Now you have to come to SZ06!
I really don't think I'm going to be able to leave at that time. I will definitely TRY to make it though if I find out it will be later on and I'll have to register later.

We'll see.

In the mean time I have to work on that boost controller AND I'm almost thinking of taking it to the track at least one more time.
Plus, if I go to SpringZing, I'll have to put on some of my secret mods just to make sure no upstart neons or evos can screw with me. lol
Originally posted by warmonger:
I really don't think I'm going to be able to leave at that time. I will definitely TRY to make it though if I find out it will be later on and I'll have to register later.

We'll see.

In the mean time I have to work on that boost controller AND I'm almost thinking of taking it to the track at least one more time.
Plus, if I go to SpringZing, I'll have to put on some of my secret mods just to make sure no upstart neons or evos can screw with me. lol


Secret mods eh?
Originally posted by warmonger:


In the mean time I have to work on that boost controller......




.....and you've been SO cool about sharing other well thought out mods, I'm hoping you'll do the same with this one With a proper EBC, our platform in turbo running gear would be a decent threat out there! Even at low boost, I've been able to shock people in 2nd & 3rd

Originally posted by warmonger:
356 HP at 10psi, Think you can hang with me?


Yes, and I'll be sure to have the added info (temp, etc) included to set the stage for my dyno run. I'll be using our "Utah premium" 91 octane to do it too.

I was able to put down 247HP/262TQ @ 3.5psi, and not run all the way to the redline. The shop temp was about 20* cooler for me, so that had to help.

Should be fun to see at the very least.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Originally posted by warmonger:


In the mean time I have to work on that boost controller......




.....and you've been SO cool about sharing other well thought out mods, I'm hoping you'll do the same with this one With a proper EBC, our platform in turbo running gear would be a decent threat out there! Even at low boost, I've been able to shock people in 2nd & 3rd

Originally posted by warmonger:
356 HP at 10psi, Think you can hang with me?


Yes, and I'll be sure to have the added info (temp, etc) included to set the stage for my dyno run. I'll be using our "Utah premium" 91 octane to do it too.

I was able to put down 247HP/262TQ @ 3.5psi, and not run all the way to the redline. The shop temp was about 20* cooler for me, so that had to help.

Should be fun to see at the very least.




Swazo, that is essentially the same power as I made at essentially the same boost!

Probably just the better fuel out here.
Yeah I was lucky that it was almost exactly at standard day here. THe correction factor was almost nil, about .98 which but that wasn't necessarily accurate either. I drove 90 miles and rolled right on the dyno and started making runs, no wait time. I did all five runs in 20 minutes too, no cool down!
I like to see what this beotch can do in full street trim with no advantages.
Things are totally different if I flush the water and put in cold water, high octane fuel, and some more timing advance. But heck, I can't get it to the ground until maybe 3rd and 4th gear anyway. lol
I expect that you will have similar results too, maybe better in the top-end with your bigger exhaust piping.
It'll be the two of us, rocking and rolling with our economical turbo kits, kicking everyones asses and STILL having money left over to take our girls to Taco Bell!
That's all I ever ate when dating my wife back in the day!!!!
Hahaha
Don't forget my econo kit!!!! This is my 2nd set up too!!!
Originally posted by stilov:
Don't forget my econo kit!!!! This is my 2nd set up too!!!




Okay, AND YOU as well!



Seriously though,

If both of you pony up, get off your behinds and dyno at 6-7lbs, 8-9lbs, and 10-12lbs, we can get a good database going of what 3L turbos on 10:1 engines and normal to above normal flowing heads/intakes are doing!
We have enough slight differences to see if one of us has some better method and maybe we can optimize it.

Hell if nothing else, Three's a charm! If all three of us can pull mid 300's with around 10psi and its all stock components. Then not only can all three of us laugh all the way to the bank (just a little dig there ) then we can actually help advance our platform as more people find that they can turbo without huge overhead on engine buildup.
I mean, someone is going to have to keep going until they break one to really find the limits, but still, look at what we have already....

A standard 3L engine, turbocharged with normal premium pump fuel can just about annihilate most of our competition cars, and is cheaper and more powerfull than all but the most built, highest pressure duratec engines running the same octane fuel.
okay...truth be known...I have forged pistons, so I maybe I am out??? Although I have done it cheap as well...and I am 9:1 CR.
Originally posted by stilov:
okay...truth be known...I have forged pistons, so I maybe I am out??? Although I have done it cheap as well...and I am 9:1 CR.




Oh NO, you sellout!

j/k. Just dyno it and lets see how it takes to boost and I'll forgive you.
Also, Stilov is using the 3L cams, keeping the secondaries in his LIM and using an aluminum 3L UIM.
We all routed out piping differently too.

I'm running 9.5:1 with the combustion chamber work I did (thanks to your Hybrid write up ), even after the +1mm pistons.
When I go in for more dyno time, I can get some different psi runs for reference sake. I want to slowly turn the boost up anyway until I get to about 12psi.

It'd be a good idea to share our info to help out others to perfect the DIY turbo kit. I know I have some ideas to improve my setup already

It's settled, all 3 of you are coming to Spring Zing. Family? Armed Forced? Work? Pshhhhh, details! We need all 3 of you on the same dyno and on the same day. I'll be the guy holding the mop, to sop up everyone's .

Mark
well who knows where I will be...I am off next week to a 2 week training for my job (promotion). Then usually people get shipped right off somewhere after. It could be anywhere...maybe I will live closer.
you guy with those 3l turbos are an inspiration to all of us 2.5l engines..I can't wait for the day i get my 3l and turbo ..The numbers you guys are putting down are freaking awsome..keep going..i love to see results like this,it keeps me thinking that my car could always be more!
That looks really nice, Tom! Those curves are very flat for a small-displacement engine running moderate boost: it looks like it'll pull long and hard. So you're still not sick of toying with this platform quite yet?
Yeah, actually it pulls like a friggin freight train well past redline. I had him only take it to 7K on the dyno but I can tach it out under boost to 7400 and it doesn't quit!
I'm not done toying with it yet.....but maybe soon.
FYI....I dropped off my upipe/crossover/headers combo at my uncles today to finish up the welding (my welding looks like crap)

I think I am going to hit the intake manifold hard and get that all wrapped up (with the throttle body, IAC, etc.)

If I am lucky...(which I am probably not) I could start the car this weekend or next week.
Yeah, stop wasting time and get that POS off jack stands!

That goes for you too MapofTaziFosho....

You guys want to start administering some beat downs right?

Hey, come to think about it where has Stazi got too?

He also has some work to do right?
Yeah, I know...I had a dream I got it running...lol


I am going home tomorrow evening to get some work done.
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoĆ¢ā??Ā¢:
I am going home tomorrow evening to get some work done.




You and me both, I've got a long way to go and have to have the car done by the end of march.
My birthday is March 30th...I plan to have it done by one week b4 then at the LATEST!
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoĆ¢ā??Ā¢:
My birthday is March 30th...I plan to have it done by one week b4 then at the LATEST!



...thats my birthday too
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoĆ¢ā??Ā¢:
My birthday is March 30th...I plan to have it done by one week b4 then at the LATEST!



...thats my birthday too




OH MY GOD!! It's a sign..........
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by tour96se:
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoShoĆ¢ā??Ā¢:
My birthday is March 30th...I plan to have it done by one week b4 then at the LATEST!



...thats my birthday too




OH MY GOD!! It's a sign..........




...i wouldnt go that far...
I am working on it...almost done with my UIM. Making my TB plate today.

I have had several dreams it was running.

I even postponed a 2 week business trip to get mine done this month!!!
Originally posted by stilov:
I am working on it...almost done with my UIM. Making my TB plate today.

I have had several dreams it was running.

I even postponed a 2 week business trip to get mine done this month!!!




I've been dreaming mine was done all too often.

I even had a dream that I came home and my dad had finished it...but he didn't torque down the flywheel bolts in sequence or to torque...
Hahahaha... Those are some F'd up dreams. Only thing worse is that you dream your girlfriend takes it for a spin and blows the motor.
Originally posted by warmonger:
Hahahaha... Those are some F'd up dreams. Only thing worse is that you dream your girlfriend takes it for a spin and blows the motor.





For me especially...I have a wife!!!
Posted By: Swazo Re: Just a little update at 0.68 bar.......... - 02/02/06 07:26 AM
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by Swazo:
I was able to put down 247HP/262TQ @ 3.5psi , and not run all the way to the redline.




Swazo, that is essentially the same power as I made at essentially the same boost!





Originally posted by warmonger:


Then on run number 5 (in a Twenty Minute time span), I pulled off the ball and spring controller and did one on the stock wastegate pressure which is 3.83 (rated) but after an intercooler pressure drop of around 0.5psi it is about 3.33psi:

250wHP/220wTQ






I reread this thread, and I noticed the difference in torque. One might chalk it up to the extra head work and different UIM, who knows.

(Now I'm really going to back my ish up with my next dyno run after fine tuning and actually making it to redline )
Yeah, there is a difference there. Could be something as simple as intercooler water temp as this was the very last run I did, not the first.

Then there are tuning differences because I no longer have it optimized for low boost like before. Then there is the fact that my indicated pressure is lower, .2 psi ought to be worth something right?


Originally posted by stilov:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Hahahaha... Those are some F'd up dreams. Only thing worse is that you dream your girlfriend takes it for a spin and blows the motor.





For me especially...I have a wife!!!




Make sure you explain to her that she is NEVER to put gas in the car. That will eliminate the 87 octane surprise that I've seen from a few other guys.
Ouch
Posted By: warmonger_dup1 Torque curve analysis ...... - 02/02/06 10:35 PM
Okay, I did some analysis on this dyno run based on everything I know about the conditions and then going over the graph to see what it might tell me. I'm going to break it down a little bit so that those who are unfamiliar with what the graph can really tell you can see this.
If you look at just the torque curve you can see that there is hardly any benefit from a turbo this size below 2500rpm. At that point the curve starts off much like a normal 3L engine, but by 2500rpm is starts a slow climb. Then as boost starts to build the slope gets much more positive.
By comparing with a pressure gauge you can see when you start getting a positive benefit from the turbo.
With five runs to compare and one at 3.3psi, I can see that this turbo/engine reaches 3.3-3.5psi at about 2500rpm. This is pretty good considering I don't really need more torque below this point due to traction and launch issues, but I like a little boost when cruising to increase efficiency and No-downshift type passing. By 3000 rpm the turbo is taking over and by 3500rpm (~64mph) it's all over....the car starts to become a rocket and you get a huge increase in power.

Boost continues to climb rapidly. It looks like the boost spike up to 12psi is happening about 4400rpm(~77mph).
You can see that by looking at the first peak, the first area where the torque maxes out. Then the torque curve takes a downward dip as the boost level leaks back down to the 10psi range....that is the flatish section in the middle that has a decreasing slope due to the boost controller problem, and shouldn't be happening.
Basically with a turbo, as long as you are in the efficiency range, you will get an almost perfectly flat torque curve since the wastegate is regulating boost to an almost constant pressure. The tip off that there was a problem is that this curve never flattened out, even for a little while(normally 500-1000rpm range) and it started its downward trend immediately after the torque peak.

Finally, the second point on the torque curve where the slope of the line becomes even more negative, the more downward flat section corresponds to the fuel enrichment that is taking place.
Demon has mentioned that this last part is probably the catalyst overheat protection kicking in. I have not disabled this feature in my software yet and it allows the PCM to add fuel to bring down combustion temps in order to keep the catalyst from overheating and cracking.

IF the boost controller worked and the cat protection was disabled, we estimate a more linear torque curve with a much more gradual drop down around 6700-7000 rpm.
This would mean torque levels staying above 300 ft-lbs till probably 6500 rpm and maybe 290 ft-lbs by around 6900rpm.

With just these basic fixes, we estimate that it probably will pull 380 wHP at a constant 12psi with cat protection turned off.....with no real increase in risk to the motor since the torque peak of 334 ft-lbs is still down lower in the rpm range.

Posted By: Swazo Re: Just a little update at 0.68 bar.......... - 02/05/06 12:49 AM
Originally posted by warmonger:
Yeah, there is a difference there. Could be something as simple as intercooler water temp as this was the very last run I did, not the first.

Then there are tuning differences because I no longer have it optimized for low boost like before. Then there is the fact that my indicated pressure is lower, .2 psi ought to be worth something right?







My IC pump would just scream while not doing anything at all....(Insert girlfriend/wife joke here), but with the low boost I'm running I don't think it really matters. I do have a new pump that I will be installing tomorrow, so dyno time is on my to-do list.

Like I've said before, it feels a lot stronger now.... but they dyno will tell for sure.

Not to jinx you on selling it, but I hope you get some more fine tunage done and a good EBC installed to squeeze out even more power that's hidden
Maybe the buyer will handle those things.
It wouldn't be THAT expensive to do.. that would be AWESOME to see!!!
That's true, it would be awesome.
Originally posted by Oscar Nominated Ray:
It wouldn't be THAT expensive to do.. that would be AWESOME to see!!!





What wouldn't be that expensive to do?
Originally posted by Swazo:

My IC pump would just scream while not doing anything at all....(Insert girlfriend/wife joke here), but with the low boost I'm running I don't think it really matters. I do have a new pump that I will be installing tomorrow, so dyno time is on my to-do list.

Like I've said before, it feels a lot stronger now.... but they dyno will tell for sure.

Not to jinx you on selling it, but I hope you get some more fine tunage done and a good EBC installed to squeeze out even more power that's hidden




What do you mean about your IC pump? Is it not working right?

No, you won't jinx me. The tune is actually an excellent tune to be able to just crank up the boost whenever I want like that and have no safety concerns. No knocking, no running lean, just smooth power. No deficiencies. Hell, I would actually be courting foolishness to tune it to the ragged edge and then sell it. Leaving the catalyst protection turned on might be smart too. Much better to be able to show a safe tune on the car, one that Oh By The Way is one of the more powerful Contours on the street.
As far as a quality boost controller, I think I'd rather use one of those to make more power rather than alter the tune at this point, for the reasons I stated above.
Besides, I've got to leave something for the future owner to do right? That future owner might like to be the guy to turn it up to 12-13, or even 14psi and and set down some big numbers attached to his name.
Yeah, I think I was smart to just check my work and show the proof of the skill in it.
Posted By: Swazo Re: Just a little update at 0.68 bar.......... - 02/05/06 03:02 AM
Good point. I think it's cool you've been able to break your previous kits output and keep it safe. The fact there is still unleashed power and some minor improvments to be made (boost controller mainly) make it even more sweet IMO.

Yes, my lightning IC pump didn't flow any fluid at all It just screamed like there was a bad bearing in it, or the impeller was spinning/vibrating on the shaft.
I did get a new one from Rara and will be installing it tomorrow.
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by Oscar Nominated Ray:
It wouldn't be THAT expensive to do.. that would be AWESOME to see!!!





What wouldn't be that expensive to do?





I was referring to an EBC install.. Could be had and done for relatively little and would help unleash a little more power. Will be exciting to see what happens with a new owner, if you do sell it.
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