what do you guys think of this?

Don't agree just because "I said so." Agree because you did your home work about the topic and found out the same information I posted.

For instance I was wrong about the PATS part of my first post because I did not "do my homework" and see what year he was talking about. I "assumed" it was a newer SVT PCM because they are the most prevalent. That was ignorant on my part.

Thanks for agreeing though.

Well he did say that the intakes had never been cleaned and that it had 120,000 miles on it.

Someone who will remain nameless sent me a quote from DemonSVT telling people on CEG about how an SVT PCM can't be installed and it simply can't be done. Guess what DemonSVT? Want to look like a total ass like you sound? I'll explain myself so everyone can clearly understand exactly how this works.

In late 1997 Ford started using PATS (Passive Anti Theft System) in the Contour/Mystiques with the Duratec 2.5L. The early version system (1997-2/98) uses a separate PATS module and does not contain any type of specific PATS coding internally in the PCM. And for the blubbering idiot, you can replace a PCM without reprogramming the PATS because the PATS module isn't in the PCM like the 2/98-on PCM's. I thought God's didn't talk out the side of their asses... Ohh I forgot this is CEG were talking about.. nm - explains itself.

For those that have 2/98-on built vehicles, you will need to have a NGS (Not a MDS or Midas whatever the hell Demon is talking about) damn... If you really worked on these cars and paid attention you would know this stuff. Replacing the PCM will require reprogramming the PATS to allow the current keys to start the engine. This can be accomplished by a Ford Dealer or someone like me who owns an NGS with Green Program Card. If someone would like to try an SE to SVT swap PCM on a 2/98-on, let me know. I will let you know what PCM's are compatible (More than likely SFG1 code as they were the most popular) and program the PATS free of charge to show some losers that it can be done. (Keep in mind you will need to bring the whole vehicle and PCM to me to have it done - I can't do this on a ship to basis).

If you keep thinking inside the box, you will live a sheltered life. As for DemonSVT, come on down pal - We'll go to the dyno together and I'll show you in real life exactly how it's done. Why do you think I included the video for? It shows you on the computer screen exactly the difference in the runs. Why do you think it was time stamped? So you couldn't say it was different days. I guess if "god" can't explain why it works.. It must not work (in his world).

And my last thought... 1997 Contour's without PATS.

I guess it could be done, but those with that model have to realize the intrument panel wiring harness and the engine harness are different to support PATS. This means you will have to change ALOT to make it work. If someone close to NE Ohio is willing to see if it can be done and how, I will be glad to offer my assistance free. The car will need to be left in my possession so I can determine what is needed and the best way to go about it. Once it is done, I will share it so everyone else can do it. Sound fair? Email me at BuckeyeSVT{at}gmail.com with interests.

Hey Demon, who's ignorant now? Maybe you should investigate first before writing people's work off.... As Carlos Mencia would say... You are clearly "Dee Dee Dee".

- Dom

Demon i have been in the car with the old pcm and new pcm. it works perfect no flaws no nothing. i know he did the direct swap and i even steped on the pcm on the floor when he gave me a ride. Nothing is boggus about it. I had to ride in it to believe it myself to believe it. So if you are so sure why dont you take his bet put your money were your mouth is if you are so positive you are right? Believe me its no joke and the videos are there to prove and i know its bad because he smoked my a$$ on the high way with it last night. [image]http://www.fordcontour.org/blog/projectgreen/index.php?[/image]

The funny thing is, in trying to make Greg look like an ass.. you succeeded in making yourself look like one.

Attitude determines 99% of the reaction you will get from any listener, regardless of knowledge, information, or tactics.

You, sir, just fell in to the 1% list.

I wish CEG had an "I don't want to be subjected to his attitude" ignore button on here.

ok i pulled that off of fco i did not write it. so i dont care if you guys dont care for it. it is the dead honest truth and he has everything to back it up. i mean i have seen everything and have read most of it. not tryin to down anyone jsut saying that everything seems to equal out. on his side and has all the proof.

Originally posted by tour96se:
would you really gain 20hp at the wheels just from this swap?
fco buckeye's dyno

Anyone want to explain what the heck is going on? Give some history to these dynos and how DemonSVT's name has been used like new york hooker?
Who said what and what the hell are the dyno's trying to prove. I've been reading and all I really see is trash talking with a few bits of tech in there.
What the hell was done and what was proven??

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by tour96se:
would you really gain 20hp at the wheels just from this swap?
fco buckeye's dyno

Anyone want to explain what the heck is going on? Give some history to these dynos and how DemonSVT's name has been used like new york hooker?
Who said what and what the hell are the dyno's trying to prove. I've been reading and all I really see is trash talking with a few bits of tech in there.
What the hell was done and what was proven??

...over on fco buckeye svt took a svt pcm and put it in a stock mtx v6se..watch the dyno videos ....did three runs with stock pcm,and three with the svt pcm...no other mods at all,gained 20hp and 9?tq at the wheels...

this all about Demon not believing that putting an SVT PCM in a contour se sport 5spd would actually give it a horsepower gain. without having to reprogram and modify some stuff.

Originally posted by wantsansvt:
this all about Demon not believing that putting an SVT PCM in a contour se sport 5spd would actually give it a horsepower gain.

Not quite. Thanks for putting words I didn't say in my mouth.

This is about the fact that an SVT PCM has no real significant performance changes in the tuning except for the timing curve. That is a fact and not an ignorant statement.

On the best day the timing bump is not going to give 1/3 of what they are claiming.

I still notice there is ZERO A/F data put forth on their behalf. Why exactly is that? Could it be that they either: 1 - did not do it because they are not smart enough to realize it was important or 2 - it proves the A/F was off the deep end rich during that bogus "baseline" pull.

Where all the pulls done on a reset PCM? If not the results are voidable.

Where the injectors changed when the PCM was changed? If not the results are voidable.

Was the MAF changed when the PCM was changed? If not the results are voidable.

I'll stop there for now.

Why you ask?

Because the fuel trim is going to change for every setting. Changing from one to another without reseting the PCM left the prior adaptations still active. A very novice mistake.

Because the different injector PCM settings would call for a different pulse width respectively. Without an injector swap you are getting an erratic change in fuel flow.

Because the MAF does not match the PCM's MAF function. Layman's terms. No match = incorrect fuel trim yet again. For instance some aftermarket MAFs hack the function to lean out the fuel mixture.

This also is ON TOP of everything I have previously posted and not one of those areas have been addressed. Only the fact I did not take the time to find out what year he was talking about in regards to PATS.
YOU DO REALIZE THAT ENTIRE PART YOU QUOTED WAS TALKING ABOUT PATS AND NOT PERFORMANCE RIGHT???

you are jsut trying to justify that you cant admit you are wrong. The pcm was changed and it worked. i am done with this. Just accept it and get over yourself. plus the whole thing i edited was jsut to show what was being said. It was just to use and to contridict what you were saying.

Originally posted by warmonger:
Anyone want to explain what the heck is going on?

They did a bogus baseline and then claimed an SVT PCM gained them 20 HP. However their "after" dyno is still showing less power then a stock Duratec.

In other words they didn't gain anything they should not have had already.

The name calling is pure "Dom" at his finest. He's the crush bend king of the CEG archives. If you are in for some humor you can read some of his old posts and responses. There are a lot of old timers (rara, brad, judge, myself, etc) and actual Ford engineers he constantly told had no clue what they were talking about. He was so pissed off about being shown up as wrong all the time he created his own site where he was the leader and you have to believe him or be banned.

Anyway it's old news but still humurous at times. Kind of like most of the car builds that come off that site as well. (like the bastard turbo child from that site that fastcougar was defrauded on)

Originally posted by wantsansvt:
you are jsut trying to justify that you cant admit you are wrong. The pcm was changed and it worked. i am done with this. Just accept it and get over yourself. plus the whole thing i edited was jsut to show what was being said. It was just to use and to contridict what you were saying.

You are not proving anything.

This is NOT a post to say that swapping an SVT PCM into a non-SVT works because that has already been done countless times over the last several years.

You can pretend that it is but it still proves nothing.

YES THE SVT PCM WORKS IN A NON-SVT.

The whole point of my argument was that there was NO WAY IN HELL that just a PCM swap is going to gain 20 HP/TQ.

Also to this point you can't prove it did because of the multiple flaws I stated in the way the testing was done.

Also even after this SVT PCM swap it still only made stock power levels or less. That doesn't prove anything.

So you can quit any time you like but you still have yet to prove anything out side of the fact about early PATS PCMs. Something I already said was correct earlier btw.

what ever you want to say. Just get the stick out of your ass and grow up. The PCM did make a 20hp gain. just because it isnt at stock numbers it does not prove anything. not every car runs the same. The facts are right there. just because it didnt sho what you want the numbers are there and in a hard copy.

Okay, this is making sense now. Well, it seems senseless to make a ruckus over it but I see where it is going.

I'd have to say that assuming the wiring harnesses were compatible and that PATS wasn't an issue due to the year and such, assuming there isn't anything that could be construed as underhanded such as switching an already-flashed PCM, then you have three things that can account for the power increase.

Increase in timing, leaner fuel trims, no learning by the pcm due to swap type of install.

The timing increase is a given and some engines are just begging for an increase in timing....whether factory freak or not, they will respond well to increases in timing due to low air temps and good detonation resistance. For me, I'd think it would really be hard to tell how an engine will respond to another ten degrees or so of timing.

ALL stock duratec graphs that I've seen on normal operating engines have run rich, like 11's:1 or even as low as 10:1

Pop in an SVT PCM that is set for a different injector into an engine that has smaller injectors and you will most likely lean the A/F out. Remember, both engines are 2.5L so they take the same amount of fuel to run at idle and normal speeds. If you put in a smaller injector then you'll get less fuel because the pulse width will be set for the larger injector.
Also, As long as the ambient temps are cool you can get away with an even leaner A/F than normal and make really good power.

So I'd say that 20 HP increase from leaner A/F on very cool ambient temps (IT is winter after all), ramped up timing from the pcm, and an otherwise good working engine....Then Yes, 20HP is very possible.

The problem is, as soon as that pcm were driven around for a couple of days with adaptive learning turned on...it will go right back to suckin wind on that car as it trims out all the fuel.
Oh, if the O2 sensors are bad or old, then this can exacerbate the issue.

I'd also be that the engine will be popping CELs over a week of driving due to out of wack aiflow and load readings.

Finally, I read Demons posts in context and I agree that his information about MAFs, functions, injectors, timing curves is correct. That doesn't mean that you can't do russian roulette and come up a winner sometimes.

You see, I have the SCT software and I've had to independently learn the things he is talking about. And the part about not being able to cut and paste code is taken out of context. YOU CAN cut and past code....all day long if you want. However, it doesn't mean that it is the right way or that it is going to work correctly and if you make it work by just cut and paste, it isn't the end of the story. You have to "TUNE" everything. Anyone who doesn't is not finishing the Job or doing a Hack Job.

So what is the big deal anyway? I mean we are talking about a low power duratec showing what a duratec with an SVT pcm is capable of?? Of course! The SVT is/was significantly more developed for power. A big portion of that was coding the PCM code to better take advantage of the engines design. The timing curve was probably exhaustively explored to keep it maximum without detonation. Hell the actual design of the two engines is identical other than cams and compression, therefore the engines should both respond equally well to the same timing curves. The compression and breathing improve the numbers too, probably the reason that weak SVT's dyno in the 150s and stong ones dyno in the 170s stock.

Originally posted by wantsansvt:
â�?��?Want to look like a total ass like you sound?â�?�
â�?��?And for the blubbering idiotâ�?�
â�?��?I thought God's didn't talk out the side of their assesâ�?�
â�?��?Ohh I forgot this is CEG were talking about.. nm - explains itself.â�?�
â�?��?Not a MDS or Midas whatever the hell Demon is talking aboutâ�?�
â�?��?I guess if "god" can't explain why it works.. It must not work (in his world).â�?�
â�?��?Hey Demon, who's ignorant now? Maybe you should investigate first before writing people's work off.â�?�
â�?��?Just get the stick out of your ass and grow up.â�?�

Wantsareasontobebanned, where's all the anger coming from? You took a ragged out 2.5L and brought the HP back up to stock levels. Do you want a cookie? No A/F tables???? You do realize that, that's the most important part of a dyno, right??? How about you take a stock 2.5L that puts out atleast average numbers and do your PCM swap? If it comes back with 20HP gains again, I'll send you that cookie you wanted.

Calling people names not only makes you look immature, but also discredits everything you have to say.

Mark

you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?

Originally posted by SVTatGT:
you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?

Yes, and I also realize that he is peddling Dom's information back and forth, only to start board wars. This guy could have chosen not to come over with the flamebait, but he failed to do so. You know, guilt by association?

Mark

I hear ya

So.

If I told you to call him a motherf***r on the internet are you going to do it and then say well...warmonger said it? Thats kinda like guilty by association.

Actually, posting a link to it would be fair enough since it is on another site, but copying, cutting, and pasting foul stuff from ANY other site should still be against the forum rules IIRC.

Now if Demon keeps reminding me that his weak, low powered 3L is faster than my strong high powered 3L, I want you to call him every name in the book.

It's all in fun...from me anyway, but all I got to say to the lower time is: stock width/50%wornout tires baby and all that untapped power!

Originally posted by Y2KSVT:

Originally posted by SVTatGT:
you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?

Yes, and I also realize that he is peddling Dom's information back and forth, only to start board wars. This guy could have chosen not to come over with the flamebait, but he failed to do so. You know, guilt by association?

Mark

Dude. I was just posting a similar response, look at the timestamp!

I used the same wordage almost.

I hear you too tom

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by Y2KSVT:

Originally posted by SVTatGT:
you do realize that the guy was just cutting and pasting what Dom had said, right?

Yes, and I also realize that he is peddling Dom's information back and forth, only to start board wars. This guy could have chosen not to come over with the flamebait, but he failed to do so. You know, guilt by association?

Mark

Dude. I was just posting a similar response, look at the timestamp! I used the same wordage almost.

.

Great minds think alike.. Either that, or we're just getting old..

Mark

I do think that you guys picked up 20 hp, but looking at the stock dyno graph, that car is running absolutely horrible judging by the power curves.

If it was a car that was running properly, i think the gains might be in the ballpark of about 5-7 hp.

I am not posting between both boards. Dom looks at it him self and i have no doubt about it. He reads all this [censored] himself. So before you go accusing anyone calm down a lil bit. so if you have a prob with what he is saying then go to him not me. I toook that just to show what i read and if i really wanted to be an ass then i would cut and past all the [censored] that is beeing said. If you dont believe he is watching this himself why dont you ask him?

Originally posted by wantsansvt:
I am not posting between both boards. Dom looks at it him self and i have no doubt about it. He reads all this [censored] himself. So before you go accusing anyone calm down a lil bit. so if you have a prob with what he is saying then go to him not me. I toook that just to show what i read and if i really wanted to be an ass then i would cut and past all the [censored] that is beeing said. If you dont believe he is watching this himself why dont you ask him?

Since you are responding to me, I'm gonna hold you responsible for your own posting, wherever it came from and rip you a new azz!

You are trolling to cause trouble. Period. If Dom wants to reach me he just needs to pm me on FCO, or look up my email and send me an email.
If he asked you to post it and you decide too, then you made yourself part of the team and open yourself to ANY comments, good/bad that can be said about the topic, methods, scruples related to it. You are now responsible. If you don't want to be the spokesperson, well its too late for one, and next time let it be a lesson to you not to get in the middle of something like that. Live and learn, I hope you are young guy, that way you'll have time to learn how not to be a TOOL!

I've had plenty of spirited conversations with Dom and though we don't always agree, he has come up with some good ideas and he has always been respectfull of me. I've got no personal beef with anyone over there!

This thing between him and Demon is old school stuff and I'm not part of that. I don't intend to get in the middle of what isn't my business. Somehow I don't think they've like each other all that well for a long time....they definitely don't go out boozin or spoonin together!

However, if its information in a public forum then I'll debate performance results all day long.

My post had to do with the original posters question, so I gave my take on it. I read Demons posts and I see what he is trying to say and I for the most part agree that he has a point.

AS far as the results:
I believe that Dom threw in a SVT PCM and it is working. I think it kicks ass that someone went and figured out if it will work or not. I don't see how it should embarrass anyone that it works/doesn't work though and I think this big To-Do is because of old tensions. I don't know any specifics of the car other than what his blog shows.
Now read my lips:
I have no problem believing that cleaning up the spark, advancing the timing and leaning out some fuel will improve an engine that much. I've worked on too many cars and tuned them up, advanced the timing, and done little tricks to them and seen the gains to disaggree.
I'm willing to bet there is an issue with the old pcm or as Dom stated the factory tune on that PCM sucks.

Here is the test, take an XCAL2 and tune up the old pcm on the dyno with spark and air fuel. Dyno.

Put in the SVT pcm and then Dyno. Should be pretty close, or the tuned stock pcm would be better.
Put in the SVT pcm and take an XCAL2 and tune it. Should end up EXACTLY the SAME!
The point that I think Demon was making is that the engine won't magically gain any more performance than it was originally capable of just because of the tuning device. It will achieve its maximum power with tuning.
The old pcm wasn't doing that. The SVT pcm seems to be doing that.
I think it is a good lesson in WHY you would want to tune your stock engine FIRST, to see where you really are.

I have offered to go along as a witness for the next test. I don't know anyone personally from either board and as far as I know I have no problems with anyone on either board. If it works cool, I will probably try it myself, if it does not work equally cool it will be fun to watch the pulls. No matter the out come I feel I can give an honest report.

I'm willing to try it myself, I just need a late model SVT PCM and two original keys so that I can program my keys to the PCM

But you have OBD-1

This car with the supposed svt pcm, its paint is ugly.

What color would you prefer?

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
This car with the supposed svt pcm, its paint is ugly.

Thats right, if it isn't yellow then it must not be fast right?

Originally posted by Stazi:
But you have OBD-1

not on my 99

which would be the vehicle I want to try the SVT PCM in

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Stazi:
But you have OBD-1

not on my 99

which would be the vehicle I want to try the SVT PCM in

Attention to detail, In your over zealousness to post you failed to read the fine print. Slow down, take your time, there is no hurry, make sure you have all the facts.

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Stazi:
But you have OBD-1

not on my 99

which would be the vehicle I want to try the SVT PCM in

Actually, you ought to try it since you've dyno'd you car already with what is considered a normal to above normal powered V6 SE. Then you could see what the pcm does.

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by BrApple:

Originally posted by Stazi:
But you have OBD-1

not on my 99

which would be the vehicle I want to try the SVT PCM in

Actually, you ought to try it since you've dyno'd you car already with what is considered a normal to above normal powered V6 SE. Then you could see what the pcm does.

more then willing to also, just got to find a PCM at a decent price with at least one key, preferable two keys programmed with that PCM

I was able to find one but it would be near $200 and that is a bit much for me at the moment, so if someone has one or can get one at a decent price let me know. I'll be able to make a few other compairisons in the spring also based on SVT parts ...

are you sure the one i have wont work??? you dont REALLY need keys,just a couple of blanks...

Originally posted by tour96se:
are you sure the one i have wont work??? you dont REALLY need keys,just a couple of blanks...

you have one from a 98, and according to the information that Dom provided about his car, he used the same code pcm and he swapped it right in because his car had the external pats module. My 99 should have the built in one, does anyone know a way to check?

I am looking for one with the internal pats, ie a late model pcm. if I have the two original keys programmed to the pcm I will be able to program my keys and not just have to hold the "programmed" key next to the steering column so that the car will start

i need to research the cut off date some more first and determine which one I have, I am pretty sure I have the later version on pats as I needed two keys to program a new one

I know for a fact that this one has it built in..when we tried burning a chip for it we were able to go turn it off..although the car still didnt start..but it built in...

Originally posted by tour96se:
I know for a fact that this one has it built in..when we tried burning a chip for it we were able to go turn it off..although the car still didnt start..but it built in...

well if it is turned off I could be worth a shot, shouldn't bother me to much as I just got a factory ad on alarm and it has a started inturupt, but I would like to retain the pats system

the dyno I would go to is in East Hartford, CT if we want to get a group of people to watch

...no,its not turned off now..when i was trying to use this pcm,and we were making a chip for it,we could go into the sct menu and turn off pats..so it must be internal..

According to Dom's information if the car has a build date of 2/98 on the PCM has the internal Pats.

Originally posted by MaddMike2:
According to Dom's information if the car has a build date of 2/98 on the PCM has the internal Pats.

to repost what was lost, my car has a build date of 9/98

so again if anyone has a late model PCM with 2 keys let me know, i found one with one key but that was near $200 from a salvage yard, so that is a no go