Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:07 PM
I raced a 00 Contour sport yesterday, i took it with ease, i have a 99 zetec mtx they have a v6 atx, should a mtx zetec be able to take the atx duratech?
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:09 PM
What'chu smoking?
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:11 PM
They're actually very close in performance. Not sure what you mean by "with ease", but it should be a very close race.
Mark
Mark
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
They're actually very close in performance. Not sure what you mean by "with ease", but it should be a very close race.
Mark
I did not know this... My bad
I take back this comment:
Originally posted by RawDirte':
What'chu smoking?
Stay drug free!
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:16 PM
What's a Duratech?
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:18 PM
Originally posted by todras:
What's a Duratech?
He must have left out the V. I think it's DuraVtech.
Mark
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:26 PM
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
but it should be a very close race.
Mark
I don't know about that. Don't forget you can manually shift 1 and 2 on the ATX V6 before putting it on D for 3 and 4. And don't forget the Brake Torguing.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:38 PM
Doesn't matter MTX Zetecs have a lot less weight to carry. Do not underestimate them. They are pretty peppy.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 06:40 PM
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
but it should be a very close race.
Mark
I don't know about that. Don't forget you can manually shift 1 and 2 on the ATX V6 before putting it on D for 3 and 4. And don't forget the Brake Torguing.
Point being? Manually shifting is not going to give the ATX the edge. As for brake torquing, that's nice and all, but compare that to someone who knows how to put power to the ground with an MTX, and it's fairly even. What you're forgetting to realize is the slushbox factor. S...L...O...W and weak shifting!!
Mark
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
but it should be a very close race.
Mark
I don't know about that. Don't forget you can manually shift 1 and 2 on the ATX V6 before putting it on D for 3 and 4. And don't forget the Brake Torguing.
Point being?
Someone who drives a MTX (as well as a ATX) can probably work the ATX V6 to get as much control so that the MTX (on a I4) would not be close on a drag. One reason why MTX are more fun to drive is because of the control on when to shift. That is usually where a MTX wins over an ATX (but you are comparing a 140 hp to a 170 hp and saying they are comparable).
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Tony2005:
(but you are comparing a 140 hp to a 170 hp and saying they are comparable).
You're forgetting to mention the drivetrain loss between the ATX and the MTX. Not to mention the weight difference between the two. That right there makes them almost identical in performance. And again, the ATX is extremely slow with shifting, and no you can't make it shift "faster" by manually shifting the ATX. The only advantage to manually shifting the ATX, is bringing the rpm up a couple hundred more rpm. So again, I stand behind the fact that the MTX I4 will hang neck and neck with the ATX V6, if not take it.
Mark
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:32 PM
Manually shifting an electronically controlled Slushbox isn't gonig to gain you anything. From my experience in my 93 ATX SHO, I'd have to shift about 500-1k rpms before I wanted it to shift, I believe this was due to the computer comparing to ensure it was 'ok' to shift. It gained me nothing, and actually posted some of my slower times. It is also not good on the internals of the transmission. I can not remember the specifics, but there are certain bands that do not engage, etc etc.
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
but it should be a very close race.
Mark
I don't know about that. Don't forget you can manually shift 1 and 2 on the ATX V6 before putting it on D for 3 and 4. And don't forget the Brake Torguing.
Point being?
Someone who drives a MTX (as well as a ATX) can probably work the ATX V6 to get as much control so that the MTX (on a I4) would not be close on a drag. One reason why MTX are more fun to drive is because of the control on when to shift. That is usually where a MTX wins over an ATX (but you are comparing a 140 hp to a 170 hp and saying they are comparable).
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:37 PM
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
Manually shifting an electronically controlled Slushbox isn't gonig to gain you anything. From my experience in my 93 ATX SHO, I'd have to shift about 500-1k rpms before I wanted it to shift, I believe this was due to the computer comparing to ensure it was 'ok' to shift.
Maybe you guys misunderstood when I said manually shifting. I don't mean tricking the ATX computer. I mean putting it on 1 and then 2 when you "feel" that you want to shift, and then putting in to D (for 3 and 4). Have you guys done that before (on an ATX)?
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:39 PM
That's the only way to do it Tony....and I understand completely. Been there done that. Unless you have a manually valve body, shifting an electronically controlled tranny is useless and harmful to it.....
Originally posted by Tony2005:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
Manually shifting an electronically controlled Slushbox isn't gonig to gain you anything. From my experience in my 93 ATX SHO, I'd have to shift about 500-1k rpms before I wanted it to shift, I believe this was due to the computer comparing to ensure it was 'ok' to shift.
Maybe you guys misunderstood when I said manually shifting. I don't mean tricking the ATX computer. I mean putting it on 1 and then 2 when you "feel" that you want to shift, and then putting in to D (for 3 and 4). Have you guys done that before (on an ATX)?
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 07:43 PM
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
....and harmful to it.....
O, oh..
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:02 PM
Yes we all understand what you're saying. We just think it doesn't do jack squat! 
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:03 PM
Originally posted by todras:
Yes we all understand what you're saying. We just think it doesn't do jack squat!
And now I have to deal with this " ..and harmful to it...". (NOT
)
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:20 PM
at the end of the day, no matter how you shift the CD4E its still a slushbox.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:36 PM
Whenever I race I HAVE TO manually shift my car. Car by itself shifts at 6k........with me shifting it will go above 7k. Been doing it for years. 
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:39 PM
Don't you have a chip? If so, why didn't you have the shift points changed?
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Whenever I race I HAVE TO manually shift my car. Car by itself shifts at 6k........with me shifting it will go above 7k. Been doing it for years.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:41 PM
Originally posted by RTStabler51:CAN'T and I mean CAN'T change the shift points. I have had 2 different custom chips and the car ALWAYS shift at the same point.
Don't you have a chip? If so, why didn't you have the shift points changed?Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Whenever I race I HAVE TO manually shift my car. Car by itself shifts at 6k........with me shifting it will go above 7k. Been doing it for years.
Yes I have a chip.
But like I said I can take it over the speed limiter and rev to 7500 rpms.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 08:49 PM
So they've removed the rev limiter and the speed limiter, but can't change the shift points? Interesting...
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:CAN'T and I mean CAN'T change the shift points. I have had 2 different custom chips and the car ALWAYS shift at the same point.
Don't you have a chip? If so, why didn't you have the shift points changed?Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Whenever I race I HAVE TO manually shift my car. Car by itself shifts at 6k........with me shifting it will go above 7k. Been doing it for years.
Yes I have a chip.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 09:55 PM
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
I have had 2 different custom chips and the car ALWAYS shifts at the same point.
Now all you need to do is get an mtx
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 09:59 PM
best times in the atx were brake torquing, and put it in drive with overdrive OFF
ive tried every possible way and thats the best
keep in mind i had a high stall convertor, sonnax valves and a shiftkit in the tranny
i do have TONS of timeslips when i still had the original atx and the 2.5L that prove that theory also
ive tried every possible way and thats the best
keep in mind i had a high stall convertor, sonnax valves and a shiftkit in the tranny
i do have TONS of timeslips when i still had the original atx and the 2.5L that prove that theory also
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 10:05 PM
I did test out the manual shifting theory on back to back runs in the spring. I rean .4 seconds faster manually shifting than leaving the car in D with the o/d off.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/13/05 11:23 PM
The V6 was carrying extra weight. It had an extra "H" in the trunk. 
Actually a light Zetec MTX will run with a heavy Duratec ATX.
Actually a light Zetec MTX will run with a heavy Duratec ATX.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 12:33 AM
My V6 ATX ran a 16.4 @ 85mph... Any MTX Zetec guys (or gals ) Care to share their best stock times??
Russell is right, O/D off and "brake torquing" is the way to go... I've also got a ton of timeslips to prove that as well.
When my tranny dies, I plan on doing a 5-spd. swap so that should be interesting, and of course, i'll run it still!
) Care to share their best stock times??Russell is right, O/D off and "brake torquing" is the way to go... I've also got a ton of timeslips to prove that as well.
When my tranny dies, I plan on doing a 5-spd. swap so that should be interesting, and of course, i'll run it still!
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 02:11 AM
Unless your running out of gearing in 3rd (D) at the end of the 1/4 turning O/D off does NOTHING!
I still don't understand the point of raising a redline if they can't raise the shift points either in an ATX equipped vehicle, which one can understand if your still making good power above the factory redline why 'shifting' you ATX manually helps you. HOwever, I still believe a VB and a appropriately tuned (i.e. raised shift points) chip would net you better times.
Originally posted by Russell-3L:
..drive with overdrive OFF
I still don't understand the point of raising a redline if they can't raise the shift points either in an ATX equipped vehicle, which one can understand if your still making good power above the factory redline why 'shifting' you ATX manually helps you. HOwever, I still believe a VB and a appropriately tuned (i.e. raised shift points) chip would net you better times.
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
I did test out the manual shifting theory on back to back runs in the spring. I rean .4 seconds faster manually shifting than leaving the car in D with the o/d off.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 02:43 AM
Turning O/D off makes the computer switch to a Sport/Towing mode in which the transmission shifts quicker, like a chip would do. It causes the car to shift quicker and maybe a little "harder" but it does improve times.
I do have time slips with similar 60' times and temps that show better times with o/d off...
From what i've heard, the contour isn't the only Ford car/vehicle that does this with o/d turned off...
I do have time slips with similar 60' times and temps that show better times with o/d off...
From what i've heard, the contour isn't the only Ford car/vehicle that does this with o/d turned off...
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 03:02 AM
My chip takes the shifts all the way to stock redline (~6750). Without the chip, it shifts around 6k or a bit less.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:Stock redline is 6500.
My chip takes the shifts all the way to stock redline (~6750). Without the chip, it shifts around 6k or a bit less.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 03:24 AM
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:Stock redline is 6500.
My chip takes the shifts all the way to stock redline (~6750). Without the chip, it shifts around 6k or a bit less.
No it's not.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 03:25 AM
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Originally posted by LocoSCZ:
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:Stock redline is 6500.
My chip takes the shifts all the way to stock redline (~6750). Without the chip, it shifts around 6k or a bit less.
No it's not.
no, you don't get it...that's where the "red(space)line" starts. lol
j/k
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:05 AM
starts yeah
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:29 AM
Where in the hell did you pull that from? The ONLY thing that does is lock out 'OD,' the rest is a figment of your imagination.
Originally posted by 99Mystique ATX:
Turning O/D off makes the computer switch to a Sport/Towing mode in which the transmission shifts quicker, like a chip would do. It causes the car to shift quicker and maybe a little "harder" but it does improve times.
I do have time slips with similar 60' times and temps that show better times with o/d off...
From what i've heard, the contour isn't the only Ford car/vehicle that does this with o/d turned off...
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:30 AM
He may have pulled it straight from the owners manual.
Ray
Ray
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:36 AM
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 05:51 AM
When brake torquing, what are the exact rpm you guys launched at? Ive done 2300 and I think its a little much wheelspin, but it has to be over or around 2000 to get the tires to spin. I have only done it a few times and it seems between 2000 and 2300 is best. Motortrend said that its good to have wheelspin to keep the rpm's high so it dosn't bog down, so thats what I'm going off of when I think we need wheelspin. Of course, too much and it will just spin withought going as fast as it could. So what's your best launch rpm? And zetecs + manual = faster than you think but I think once the atx gets going above 45 mph we got it. Just my unproven opinion, going off of what it felt like in other zetecs.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:18 PM
FWIW. My Mystake ran 16.9 stock on the track. This was run with some other friends in their Duratec's. They were oulling times of low to high 17's for comparison. One of those cars we later a tune up on and it ran a 16.9 as well. Based on this I would say on the same track with cars in similar tune that the times are in fact very close between an ATX Duratec and a MTX Zetec. As for an ATX Zetec..... 
(without forced induction )
(without forced induction )
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/14/05 04:34 PM
My auto talon has a button for "performance/economy" and a seperate overdrive button. The first button stated does what the one guy said about shifting quicker and harder and takes it up to the red line, on economy it is smoother and you get a little better milage in town. But from what I have read you want to keep it on performance because it is easier on the tranny. Go figure.
To O/D or not to O/D... - 09/14/05 06:57 PM
O/D on or O/D off does nothing but stop torque converter lockup (not used at WOT btw) and the shift into over drive.
There are NOT multiple sets of shift functions or line pressure tables in the PCM code.
Any "gains" someone is "feeling" from changing the position on the switch is purely illusionary. Any actual timing (ET) change is going to be well within the range of error for multiple runs.
This is no hearsay, no butt dyno, but actual data from the code.
98% of ALL CARS MADE call "stopping the torque converter from locking up" as SPORT mode. It's nothing more then that. PERIOD.
For those that do not understand what this means. That means the converter will stall at the highest rpm it can per VSS signal. (MPH) This is why you can see more engine rpm on the tachometer but in reality you are not actually going any faster then normal. You are just stalling the transmission at a higher rpm level.
The PCM uses the VSS and TPS for shifting, not engine rpm. For instance changing your tire diameter without telling the PCM will cause your shifting points to alter beause of this. (slushboxes only of course)
There are NOT multiple sets of shift functions or line pressure tables in the PCM code.
Any "gains" someone is "feeling" from changing the position on the switch is purely illusionary. Any actual timing (ET) change is going to be well within the range of error for multiple runs.
This is no hearsay, no butt dyno, but actual data from the code.
98% of ALL CARS MADE call "stopping the torque converter from locking up" as SPORT mode. It's nothing more then that. PERIOD.
For those that do not understand what this means. That means the converter will stall at the highest rpm it can per VSS signal. (MPH) This is why you can see more engine rpm on the tachometer but in reality you are not actually going any faster then normal. You are just stalling the transmission at a higher rpm level.
The PCM uses the VSS and TPS for shifting, not engine rpm. For instance changing your tire diameter without telling the PCM will cause your shifting points to alter beause of this. (slushboxes only of course)
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/16/05 04:05 PM
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
89' Ford Probe had a sport switch on the shifter and it raised the shirt points... And its a ford.
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/16/05 04:08 PM
Originally posted by mond12345:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
had a sport switch... ...and it raised the shirt points.
I wish my wife had one of those.
Ray
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/16/05 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by mond12345:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
had a sport switch... ...and it raised the shirt points.
I wish my wife had one of those.
Ray
Bwahahahahaha!!!
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/16/05 07:40 PM
Originally posted by 98Ford2L:
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by mond12345:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
had a sport switch... ...and it raised the shirt points.
I wish my wife had one of those.
Ray
Bwahahahahaha!!!
LMMFAO
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/17/05 02:19 AM
I once saw a car review in a newspaper that praised its "well-timed [censored]".
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/17/05 06:03 AM
Originally posted by I-Dom-In-8:
Originally posted by 98Ford2L:
Originally posted by Ray:
Originally posted by mond12345:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I have never seen any Ford product, driven, or owned any Ford product that by simply turning off the o/d do what you claim. However, I have seen other vehicles with a seperate button on the console for 'sport' mode in the tranny...but I don't recall any of them being Ford products....
had a sport switch... ...and it raised the shirt points.
I wish my wife had one of those.
Ray
Bwahahahahaha!!!
LMMFAO
Nice catch! Yeah that would be nice to have too...
Re: Zetec Vs. Duratech - 09/18/05 06:38 AM
Given the track record of the tranny alone, it's no comparison. How many of you recommend the tranny-oil cooler for an ATX? All of you. The mtx, given some redline and presto. Less repairs, more control, and fun(ner) to drive. Sure I don't have a 16.4 but I'll take my 16.6 and smile more doing it 
All in good fun
All in good fun