Dyno of 3.0L Duratec Twin Turbo

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by gotapex:
I have the video, I just need to pick up a firewire cable to plug it in.

I'm not sure if I'm running out of pump or injector. I'm using the 42lb injectors from the Ford Lightning.

That should be more than enough for just 365 HP. I'd look at the pump and the MAF. I would assume you are using a lightning MAF too?

From what I understand, the 42lb injectors may be good for about 400 wheel hp or just a tad more. Above that may be pushing it. I could be wrong though.

I have no MAF. It's a GM speed density system.

Yeah, it's on my Noble. Not positive what size the stock pump is, I need to hit up the manufacturer to find out.

Awesome numbers.

Plus this is all in a RWD car that weighs what... 2400lbs wet...

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Awesome numbers.

Plus this is all in a RWD car that weighs what... 2400lbs wet...

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

I'd really like to get to a nice even 500 rwhp though. I'm just hoping it's not going to take a Motec priced standalone management system.

Oh yeah, pulls were done with clamshell down, no external fans providing cool air to engine, intake, or intercooler. My intercooler does have two Zirgo 8" fans (1000 cfm's each) cooling it, and providing some airflow to the pair if intakes.

Originally posted by gotapex:

Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Awesome numbers.

Plus this is all in a RWD car that weighs what... 2400lbs wet...

Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

I'd really like to get to a nice even 500 rwhp though. I'm just hoping it's not going to take a Motec priced standalone management system.

Have you considered the new Greddy E-Manage Ultimate system? I'd say a Microtech, but that's probably about the same as a Motec. Awesome Numbers and awesome pics. I've seen the ones you took from doing the build up, looks like one hell of a sweet setup. Keep it up.

Robert

Stoop stoop stoop question but what kinda car is that?? Also awesome numbers

Noble

its called a Noble do a search real popular with contour people because they come with the same 2.5l engine most of our cars have or somethig like that corect me if im wrong

I dont think id ride in anything that I built lol..RC cars are bad enough...oops forgot the a arm

Originally posted by GS474:
its called a Noble do a search real popular with contour people because they come with the same 2.5l engine most of our cars have or somethig like that corect me if im wrong

3.0L

You need a new fuel pump I think. You aren't using a booster pump are you?

To be sure you could check fuel pressure at high rpms to see if it is falling. Returnless use a focus SVT pump, return use the trusty walbro 255(GSS 342). I put down 388 on my 2.5 duratec with fuel to spare. Suneil did 402 with the same set up and still had fuel left. Both cars had 42lb injectors.

Originally posted by Keyser:
You need a new fuel pump I think. You aren't using a booster pump are you?

To be sure you could check fuel pressure at high rpms to see if it is falling. Returnless use a focus SVT pump, return use the trusty walbro 255(GSS 342). I put down 388 on my 2.5 duratec with fuel to spare. Suneil did 402 with the same set up and still had fuel left. Both cars had 42lb injectors.

Great, thanks for the suggestions. I'll check into that. Shouldn't be that hard to get to.

How loud is the Walbro? If I'm going to replace my pump, I'd ideally like to get something quiet.

Originally posted by gotapex:

How loud is the Walbro? If I'm going to replace my pump, I'd ideally like to get something quiet.

It only its a little noisy if your low on fuel.

I'm not going to lie the Walbro makes some noise when it gets hot. It will be quiter than if you run out of fuel though. It's hard to tell but that looks like a booster pump. If it is make sure the fuse to it is good. If one of the two isn't working that could explain your lack of fuel. The thing about using booster pumps is that if either pump goes out you have just enough gas to go boom.

It's a fuel pump and fuel filter, I believe.

Oh right that is the filter, sorry. Well, I go with my previous statement. Hook a gauge up to the schrader valve and see if it falls under 40psi at WOT.

The walbro is an in-tank unit and it is pretty noisy when the tank gets low on fuel. The fuel cools it and keeps it quiet when it is submerged.

Video of first pass (4mb):

http://www.nobleforums.com/images/onyxm400/video/dynorun1.wmv

I've got the walbro 255 on return style...I really didn't notice much noise difference. Although I haven't driven it since like Feb...I miss it!!! If you had some of the foam wrap that comes around a lot of them, and depending on the insulation between the tank and inside...I can't imagine it would be too loud

Originally posted by gotapex:
Video of first pass

awesome man. sounds fimiliar.

Awesome, this thread just made my day!

I'm sure there's lots of CEG'ers who would love to drool over your car at a meet sometime ...

Originally posted by gotapex:
Video of first pass (4mb):

http://www.nobleforums.com/images/onyxm400/video/dynorun1.wmv

Totally hot man. Can't wait till I get home and can pump the sound up on my stereo.

Pardon the stupidity/thread hijacking, but what tranny do most nobles run?

Getreg 6-speed.

Mark

Originally posted by Y2KSVT:
Getreg 6-speed.

Mark

Thats funny, I run a Getrag 6 speed in my Volvo S40 too.

It's the unit from the ST220:

Quote:

lightweight Durashift six-speed manual transmission, a completely new development from Ford-Getrag based on a three-shaft design with one input and two output shafts. It has two layshafts with the most commonly used gears â�?��?? first to fourth â�?��?? on one with dual synchros and fifth, sixth and reverse on the second layshaft, using a different final drive ratio.

This gives you the best of both worlds, with four short, closely-spaced ratios for hard acceleration and quick work around town and two longer-legged gears for better fuel economy on the open road.

It's similar in effect (although not in operation) to the old British Laycock de Normanville transmission, which gave you an electrically operated overdrive on third and fourth.

It's a lot slicker in operation, however, thanks to a counterbalance that reduces the synchroniser ring resistance felt during gear shifting. The shifting process therefore becomes smoother. The three-shaft layout allows a very compact transmission; the gearbox and clutch assembly weighs only 52kg.

I'm pretty impressed at the 52kg weight for the gearbox & clutch assembly. That's just under 115 lbs.

Originally posted by gotapex:
It's the unit from the ST220:
I'm pretty impressed at the 52kg weight for the gearbox & clutch assembly. That's just under 115 lbs.

Whats that compared to the MTX-75?

I wish I had a gearbox like that. Most affordable passenger cars don't get the good stuff.

must say, that is a pretty sweet car and very nice setup! Love to see how it does once the issues are resolved.

Originally posted by GreenNuggs:

Originally posted by gotapex:
It's the unit from the ST220:
I'm pretty impressed at the 52kg weight for the gearbox & clutch assembly. That's just under 115 lbs.

Whats that compared to the MTX-75?

I wish I had a gearbox like that. Most affordable passenger cars don't get the good stuff.

MTX-75 is a very lightweight trans as well, I would guess it is similar in weight. It also uses a compact 3-shaft design. Other than the differential it is a very tough transmission, smooth shifting, etc. It suffers from less problems then transmissions from some other companies believe it or not. The 3rd gear syncho issues are mainly from the type of cheap lubricant that was originally used, i.e. straight ATF versus the better fluids.

Nice to see some numbers. Ever think of ditching the Rousch setup and go with a factory setup from a Svt and use a chip? Unless you get a hold of Rousch or Ford.

Ditching the stock system may be the way to go. I guess we'll see soon.

Mechanic hooked up a pressure gauge to see what's going on with the fuel. What it looks like is the fuel pump should be providing the required capacity & pressure. Pinch off the return and the pressure shoots up to 100 psi.

The fuel pressure regulator on the other hand... It seems like the stock non-boost-sensing regulator is keeping pressures to the 40 psi range even under boost.

An adjustable fuel pressure regulator with vacuum/boost compensating port may be the first thing to try.

Anyone have any favorites?

I've heard these are pretty good:

http://www.fluidcontrol.net/pages/regulators.html

So basically that is a FMU. That unit may give you more trouble than you want. It will boost the fuel pressure everytime you get into boost and cause a lean condition in between shifts. It won't just richen up the top end. Are you sure you aren't running out of air metering voltage?

gotapex, what you want is a fuel pressure regulator that maintains ~40psi, but relative to manifold pressure, not atmospheric pressure. You don't want a rising rate FMU that increases fuel pressure more than boost pressure increases.

Most stock fuel pressure regulators of late should have some sort of port on them to reference to the manifold; do you have any photos of your existing FPR?

Hmm, I got to get a picture of that. It's still at my mechanic's place.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Originally posted by Rara:
gotapex, what you want is a fuel pressure regulator that maintains ~40psi, but relative to manifold pressure, not atmospheric pressure. You don't want a rising rate FMU that increases fuel pressure more than boost pressure increases.

Most stock fuel pressure regulators of late should have some sort of port on them to reference to the manifold; do you have any photos of your existing FPR?

That's what I was thinking. The Contour has some kind of sensor that shows the difference between fuel pressure and manifold pressure/vacuum. We tried to see if we could get that sensor to do something for us during the EARLY development stages of the SF/ADC turbo kit. Of course, it all depends on how the computer interprets the sensor's output.

The returnless engines have a fuel pressure transducer (for the PCM) at the base of the fuel rail.

The PCM has 2 tables with load vs rpm with the variable as fuel pump voltage.

This is how the system regulates overall fuel volume. It has it's good and bad points.

Well, it's back in the shop getting that stuff looked at. Another dyno run in a few days.

The returnless PCM will alter the fuel pressure map to suit it's needs. Changing it is pointless.

Is this the transducer?

No, looks like a standard pressure regulator on a return style system. It also looks like that is a MAP sensor in the picture. Does the Noble use a MAF or a MAP or both?

Originally posted by warmonger:
No, looks like a standard pressure regulator on a return style system. It also looks like that is a MAP sensor in the picture. Does the Noble use a MAF or a MAP or both?

I believe somewhere above it is mentioned that it is a MAP based system.

That regulator is unused, not sure why it's not just left off.

Here's the actual Bosch one:

And the stock fuel pump (foam covered) & filter (blue):

Noble uses a speed density system, no MAF at all.

42lb injectors = 440 cc/min.

Anyone upgrade their injectors? What did you get?

I have used 36# in my turbo 3L and they provided sufficient fuel for the 326 wHP dyno's. I think I could have gotten 350 out of them easily enough. I have 42# injectors for my engine so that I can take it up into the 400 HP range should it decide to hold together at those levels and if the turbo and piping is capable of it.

What to get beyond 42#? Anyone happen to know?

50#. I could never just plug in the values and get it right. I always had to tune the maf for it too.

Changed the fuel pump and filter:

http://www.fluidcontrol.net/pages/pumps.html

Changed to aftermarket Sard Sport adjustable fuel pressure regulator, with liquid filled pressure gauge, so we can keep an eye on it during the dyno tuning:

No more lean condition. W00t.

Going in for dyno next week, and hopefully turn the boost up.

No MAF here. Lots of fuel injector choices, but I'm really not used to domestic stuff. Trying to find bigger ones that fit without problems. If you can't tell, I'm a totally newbie with this kind of engine.

Installed:

Alas, waiting list for nearby dynos is 2 weeks.

Try the siemens 60# injectors on Ebay if you really want big!
They can support upwards of 650 HP at only 45psi!

Since you are new to choosing this stuff, here are some things that can help:

With your fuel pressure regulator you can adjust that up to 60 psi for a significant increase on any injector you use and still have a safe pressure (as long as you retain stock idle settings or can tune for the new idle pressure).
Our stock contour regulators run at 55psi WOT and that helps extend the range of our injectors more than people realize too since ford/bosch/delphi injectors are rated at 45psi. Apparently siemens are rated at 45.5psi, all approximately the same.

Figure the 42# injectors flow 42 lb/hr measured at 45psi.
compute new flow rate at higher pressure of 55psi:

square root (55psi/45psi) * 42lb/hr = 46.4lb/hr
(substitute values so that new pressure is always over the old pressure)

Calculate horsepower available (very rough calculations) at these flow rates:
Most people assume a brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) for turbo engines of .65 but it seems at moderate boost levels this is not the case for the duratec. I think it would be closer to the .50-.55 range that N/A vehicles are rated at. But I'll continue an example with .50 BSFC and the reevaluated 42# injectors from above:

HP=(flow rate *0.80)/BSFC
HP=(46.4*0.8)/.55
HP=67.5 per injector
67.5x6 injectors = 405 HP
These are crank values.

Now, using BSFC of 0.50:

HP= 46.4*0.8/.50
HP= 74.24
x6 = 445 HP

Now I made ~326 wHP on 36# injectors? How did that happen at stock 55psi pressure?
36# inj. ~= 39.8# injectors at 55psi.

326 with 18% loss is about 397 HP; or 66.3 HP per injector
(39.8*0.8)/66.3 = BSFC
BSFC = 0.48

Ok, all done. Now that I have 42# injectors I'm going to assume a BSFC of about .50 and the above calculation shows I should get myself up to around 450 crank or 370 wheels. Of course that is just rough and goes by the old days assumptions of 11.5:1 air fuel ratio when I run closer to 12.3:1

Whew, that was long right? Had enough yet?

Now with these ratings are the injectors at 100% duty cycle or within a safe range.

Sorry,

80%
That is what the 0.80 means in the formula.
You can pick 85% as safe, or even 90% but that is about it.

Also I want to correct the earlier statement about the injectors being rated at 45psi. Some are and some aren't.
Ford used to rate them at 39psi. Some are also 44.5psi. Pick an average value since they are all pretty close.

Except on returnless cars where the pressure drop across the injector is measured and kept as close to 40 as possible.

It really is irrelevant for returnless or return style. The rating by the injector designer can be at any pressure differential but the software in the car will calculate flow delivery based upon pulse width and pressure.

The only requirement is that the pressure be kept within an acceptable range so that injector spray pattern remains as intended.

Not what I was getting at. You will not see higher than advertised on a returnless system. It will not go to 55psi.

Oh. That makes sense.

So when you guys tried different fuel pumps were you still limited to 55psi?

Unless it is commanded in the softwaret the fuel pressure will not rise above the value entered. The factory value is 40psi. Even under WOT.

Wired pump to get power directly to the fusebox, and grounded it to the chassis. Now getting full voltage to the pump. Only using the thin stock wire to handle the signaling.

Picked up a PLX R500 wideband O2 to monitor the AF and see how much boost we can run.

http://www.plxdevices.com/R-500_productinfo.htm

Fuel pressure up to 55 psi, and AF remains at 11.2:1 or below at 13 PSI at 7000 rpm.

Went to an airfield with a magazine (not sure I can name them yet). It was 103 degrees F, absolutely horrible for turbocharged vehicles. It ran 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile in 12.2. Pretty disappointing, but not too surprising.

Next up: more boost.

Originally posted by gotapex:
It ran 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile in 12.2. Pretty disappointing...

Wish I could be that disapointed.

Nice to hear! You know after posting all this duartec candy over the past few months, you're now obligated to visit each ceg members area and provide them with rides didn't you?

Cheers!

John.

Originally posted by gotapex:
Wired pump to get power directly to the fusebox, and grounded it to the chassis. Now getting full voltage to the pump. Only using the thin stock wire to handle the signaling.

Picked up a PLX R500 wideband O2 to monitor the AF and see how much boost we can run.

http://www.plxdevices.com/R-500_productinfo.htm

Fuel pressure up to 55 psi, and AF remains at 11.2:1 or below at 13 PSI at 7000 rpm.

Went to an airfield with a magazine (not sure I can name them yet). It was 103 degrees F, absolutely horrible for turbocharged vehicles. It ran 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile in 12.2. Pretty disappointing, but not too surprising.

Wow! Nice if you asked me. You may want to raise that fuel ratio though to at least 12.0-12.2:1
Unless those heads are significantly different than ours, the combustion properties should be the same and 12.2 to one will yield significantly more power and still be detonation resistant if your intercoolers are working properly. I ran 12.0-12.2:1 just this weekend at 14+ psi of boost and nothing happened to the engine but gargantuan amounts of power!

I wasn't ready for that much boost yet so I turned it down but the point is I have stock everything in my 3L block with 10:1 compression, and nothing happened but the tires spinning out at 65-70mph when the boost came back on.
Tune it slowly during the lean out process of course and try 11.5, 11.8, 12, 12.2 and see how it goes. Should do it on a dyno so you can see if the torque levels start to fluctuate or get jagged as a sign of getting close to preignition.
You shouldn't get anything until 12.5:1 or higher in my experience.....on this engine that is.
Good luck with it.

That is an impressive piece of equiptment (the little computer). Wish I had some extra cash layin' around.

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by gotapex:
Wired pump to get power directly to the fusebox, and grounded it to the chassis. Now getting full voltage to the pump. Only using the thin stock wire to handle the signaling.

Picked up a PLX R500 wideband O2 to monitor the AF and see how much boost we can run.

http://www.plxdevices.com/R-500_productinfo.htm

Fuel pressure up to 55 psi, and AF remains at 11.2:1 or below at 13 PSI at 7000 rpm.

Went to an airfield with a magazine (not sure I can name them yet). It was 103 degrees F, absolutely horrible for turbocharged vehicles. It ran 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile in 12.2. Pretty disappointing, but not too surprising.

Wow! Nice if you asked me. You may want to raise that fuel ratio though to at least 12.0-12.2:1
Unless those heads are significantly different than ours, the combustion properties should be the same and 12.2 to one will yield significantly more power and still be detonation resistant if your intercoolers are working properly. I ran 12.0-12.2:1 just this weekend at 14+ psi of boost and nothing happened to the engine but gargantuan amounts of power!
I wasn't ready for that much boost yet so I turned it down but the point is I have stock everything in my 3L block with 10:1 compression, and nothing happened but the tires spinning out at 65-70mph when the boost came back on.
Tune it slowly during the lean out process of course and try 11.5, 11.8, 12, 12.2 and see how it goes. Should do it on a dyno so you can see if the torque levels start to fluctuate or get jagged as a sign of getting close to preignition.
You shouldn't get anything until 12.5:1 or higher in my experience.....on this engine that is.
Good luck with it.

I absolutely agree. We're running too rich right now. I'd ideally like to be right at the 12:1 mark or so. I'd say a little bit rich is ok just for safety, especially with this horrible west coast 91 octane gas.

Next up, we need to tune the boost levels up. Twin GT28R turbos can definitely operate higher than 13 psi before efficiency issues.

The shop that's doing the tuning is getting a dyno in soon. All the dynos I can possibly stomach are coming.

I'm guessing the next issue will be the tranny. Apparently, during heavy sustained roadracing, torque levels about 400 lb/ft become an issue.

Originally posted by gotapex:

Originally posted by warmonger:

Originally posted by gotapex:
Wired pump to get power directly to the fusebox, and grounded it to the chassis. Now getting full voltage to the pump. Only using the thin stock wire to handle the signaling.

Picked up a PLX R500 wideband O2 to monitor the AF and see how much boost we can run.

http://www.plxdevices.com/R-500_productinfo.htm

Fuel pressure up to 55 psi, and AF remains at 11.2:1 or below at 13 PSI at 7000 rpm.

Went to an airfield with a magazine (not sure I can name them yet). It was 103 degrees F, absolutely horrible for turbocharged vehicles. It ran 0-60 in 3.6 seconds, quarter mile in 12.2. Pretty disappointing, but not too surprising.

Wow! Nice if you asked me. You may want to raise that fuel ratio though to at least 12.0-12.2:1
Unless those heads are significantly different than ours, the combustion properties should be the same and 12.2 to one will yield significantly more power and still be detonation resistant if your intercoolers are working properly. I ran 12.0-12.2:1 just this weekend at 14+ psi of boost and nothing happened to the engine but gargantuan amounts of power!
I wasn't ready for that much boost yet so I turned it down but the point is I have stock everything in my 3L block with 10:1 compression, and nothing happened but the tires spinning out at 65-70mph when the boost came back on.
Tune it slowly during the lean out process of course and try 11.5, 11.8, 12, 12.2 and see how it goes. Should do it on a dyno so you can see if the torque levels start to fluctuate or get jagged as a sign of getting close to preignition.
You shouldn't get anything until 12.5:1 or higher in my experience.....on this engine that is.
Good luck with it.

I absolutely agree. We're running too rich right now. I'd ideally like to be right at the 12:1 mark or so. I'd say a little bit rich is ok just for safety, especially with this horrible west coast 91 octane gas.

Next up, we need to tune the boost levels up. Twin GT28R turbos can definitely operate higher than 13 psi before efficiency issues.

The shop that's doing the tuning is getting a dyno in soon. All the dynos I can possibly stomach are coming.

I'm guessing the next issue will be the tranny. Apparently, during heavy sustained roadracing, torque levels about 400 lb/ft become an issue.

Enter> Terry Haines

-tropictour

What?? I don't even think the Noble uses a MTX75.

Originally posted by warmonger:
What?? I don't even think the Noble uses a MTX75.

Oh really. My mistake.

-tropictour

Originally posted by tropictour:

Originally posted by warmonger:
What?? I don't even think the Noble uses a MTX75.

Oh really. My mistake.
-tropictour

The website says Getrag 6 speed.

Tomorrow, it's off to the track (roadcourse, not dragstrip). C6 Z06 will be there, as well a twin turbocharged G35 Coupe (with about $130k worth of mods). There will be a few other misc cars too, like a Charger SRT-8, supercharged Scion tC, and some other things I think.

Originally posted by gotapex:
Tomorrow, it's off to the track (roadcourse, not dragstrip). C6 Z06 will be there, as well a twin turbocharged G35 Coupe (with about $130k worth of mods). There will be a few other misc cars too, like a Charger SRT-8, supercharged Scion tC, and some other things I think.

Take pics... LOTS and LOTS of pics...

Esp that twin blown g35.

Hmm, sounds like some worthy opponents!

Let the duratec beat downs begin!

Chop some heads off!!

Mark

Yes I would like to see many pics of those cars in your rearview.

Originally posted by gotapex:
Tomorrow, it's off to the track (roadcourse, not dragstrip). C6 Z06 will be there, as well a twin turbocharged G35 Coupe (with about $130k worth of mods). There will be a few other misc cars too, like a Charger SRT-8, supercharged Scion tC, and some other things I think.

yes, take Lots of Pics!!

Originally posted by gotapex:
Tomorrow, it's off to the track (roadcourse, not dragstrip). C6 Z06 will be there, as well a twin turbocharged G35 Coupe (with about $130k worth of mods). There will be a few other misc cars too, like a Charger SRT-8, supercharged Scion tC, and some other things I think.

What track are you going to? If you're not too busy sorting out stuff at the track (I know I usually am...) please take and post plenty of pics.

I'd love to see some shots of that Noble in action.

Originally posted by ouch:

Originally posted by gotapex:
Tomorrow, it's off to the track (roadcourse, not dragstrip). C6 Z06 will be there, as well a twin turbocharged G35 Coupe (with about $130k worth of mods). There will be a few other misc cars too, like a Charger SRT-8, supercharged Scion tC, and some other things I think.

yes, take Lots of Pics!!

Not just pics - get some video! Let's hear/see all those cars in action!

Ugh! Electrical issues downed my car. A friend brought his M12 GTO-3R instead (352hp).

HOT

Great pics Gotapex! It's awesome to see fellow corner carvers here.

I know what you mean about gremlins after finally getting a car together. I've been pussyfooting around with my 3.0L SVT Contour for about two years now and I finally got it together a month or so ago for a track event at BeaveRun. Man was that a blast. The only two cars that passed me were an E36 M3 and a 911 Turbo, both on track rubber. I was still running street tires and my little FWD car was slaying others on the track.
Until the second day when I lost all power steering.

Anyway, thanks a bunch for the pics! Good luck and keep us updated when you hit the track again.