What Solo Class Would You Build A CSVT For?

Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives

Besides the occasional HPDE use, I'm thinking about modding my 'tour towards a specific Solo (auotocross) class. I've been to a couple of events so far and participated in G-Stock on street tires and bone stock suspension.

Where do you think these cars could end up being the most competitive...G-Stock, E-Street Prepared, or the Street Touring class? Obviously this question is independent of driver skill, just wondering where the playing field would be the most level.

Thanks,
Randy

STS is the best IMHO. It keeps you from doing the expensive intrusive things like LSDs, but let's you bolt on stuff as the season progresses. If I had to do it all over again, I would have skipped GS and went to STS; I swapped to Konis last year, and put on H&R's and a camber kit this year. Knowing now what a difference that meant, I would have bit the bullet and did it at the same time. Now, I can leisurely add a bigger sway bar, strut braces, intake options, etc.

Going to ESP puts you against prepped V8 Mustangs, Camaros and Turbo Supras. Yikes.

I agree... STS.

Weargle,

Thanks for your advice! Always appreciate anyone willing to share their "been there, done that, here's how to do it right" stories

How do you like your Azenis? People I've talked to here love them. Ever tried the Kumho MX's? Heard any comparisons between the two? Couldn't find anyone around here that had much time on them.

Randy

Thanks Eric!

Randy

From what I've gathered, the MX is about 2 lb lighter, and that weight is all in the sidewall. In our heavy cars, you need that sidewall thickness to prevent deformation and keep the tread on the track/airport/parking lot. However, the problem with the Azenis is that they go off as they warm up (turn greasier) and the MX is poorer from the line and gets better as they heat up.

On the standard autox course, you need the immediate traction, and in my experience, they don't go away unless you do several hot laps immediately after each other without resting. A trick that I among other use is to spray them with water from a pressurized garden sprayer between runs. A bonus of this is that you get to wash your hands after using the portajohns

What I would recommend doing first off(after improving tires) goes against what Fred Puhn recommends (a bigger sway bar) just because our stock suspension is so soft. I'd go with Konis/Bilsteins and H&R's/Eibachs and a camber kit. This isn't a cheap upgrade, but the difference is night and day. Then upgrade your sway bar next, then look into different intakes/exhaust scenarios, then maybe go for a rear strut tower brace, and last (and probably not necessary) a front strut tire brace.

One more caveat thought about tires: If you're doing double duty (daily driving and autocrossing) DO NOT DO AZENIS! They're for itshay in the rain on the interstate! For this application I would have no problem recommending the Kumho MX over the Falken.

Last I checked, none of these classes had a problem w/ people running race tires. I had some people in GS with Victoracers running against me.

If you're going to do it, get race tires, you'll probably cut several seconds off your times.

Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
Last I checked, none of these classes had a problem w/ people running race tires. I had some people in GS with Victoracers running against me.

If you're going to do it, get race tires, you'll probably cut several seconds off your times.

You cannot run these in STS/STX. The minimum treadwear rating is 140 and no R-compound tires. Which is *the* appeal of STS IMHO.

Stumbled onto the SCCAForums site ahile ago. In the ST* forums there's plenty of tire talk, especially regarding Azenis and MX's. The topic/debate seemed to be which tire's heat characteristics best suited each car and driver's style. I do plan on mounting whichever I choose on separate wheels for track-only use (maybe driving to and from).

I agree with your modification plan. I've seen that echoed elsewhere on this board. This would seem a logical way for the car to progress in step with my driving abilities, too.

Eric- If I've read the rules correctly (and I haven't read them all, yet) R-compound tires are allowed in the stock and SP classes, but not in the STS class. I thought R-compounds in stock was a little weird, but....

Randy

Well that's all good news to me. STS here I come as well.

Don't forget STX and SM.

But STS would definitely be my first choice.

Quote:

What I would recommend doing first off(after improving tires) goes against what Fred Puhn recommends (a bigger sway bar) just because our stock suspension is so soft. I'd go with Konis/Bilsteins and H&R's/Eibachs and a camber kit. This isn't a cheap upgrade, but the difference is night and day. Then upgrade your sway bar next, then look into different intakes/exhaust scenarios, then maybe go for a rear strut tower brace, and last (and probably not necessary) a front strut tire brace.

All I would add to this is ergonomics. Oh, and maybe brakes, but here's a good car-mod priority list, IMO:

1. Tires/wheels
2. Suspension
3. Ergonomics
4. Brakes
5. Horsepower

Now for the long version.

1. Get the widest wheels allowed, in 16" or 17", as light as possible. Looks? Who cares. Lightness is beautiful. Tires? What Weargle said. I like 205 width on my 16x7.5, because the sidewalls are braced better than a 225 would be, and provide max stiffness. I'll probably go with the MX because I do expect them to be street tires, for real. (And thanks to Weargle's advice...)

2. What Weargle said. Swaybars help the cornering balance, but do nothing for brake dive. And you'll do some serious braking. I also think these cars have quite a bit of roll, and in the quick transitions of autox, you need a car that can swing less and faster.

3. You can't drive your best if you're using the steering wheel to push yourself into your seat. Get a racing harness, or at the very least, use one of those child restraint belt clips to lock your seatbelt. Replace your rubber pedals with some nice metal ones, get your own helmet that fits well and isn't soaked with sweat from the last heat.

4. Brakes. Maximize your stock system, and remove compliance where possible. Flush the fluid, replace the pads with nice high-perf street pads, and install braided lines. Some of this is ergonomic, as it relates to precise pedal feel.

5. HP. I don't think there's a lot to be gained within the rules of STS, but now that the rest of it is sorted out, why not?

Originally posted by RogerB:

1. Get the widest wheels allowed, in 16" or 17", as light as possible. Looks? Who cares. Lightness is beautiful. Tires? What Weargle said. I like 205 width on my 16x7.5, because the sidewalls are braced better than a 225 would be, and provide max stiffness. I'll probably go with the MX because I do expect them to be street tires, for real. (And thanks to Weargle's advice...)

OK, I agree with Roger on most points except for the tires/wheels.

This is a good article on Plus sizing wheels/tires on an autocross course: http://www.grassrootsmotorsports.com/plustest.html

Let's assume that you're prepping for STS. You can go no wider than a 7.5" wheel, which is fine considering what we have in the wheel well available to us. Now, what are you most interested in: a) fast cornering or b)quick acceleration? On the track, I'd say "a" in a heartbeat. But this ain't the track. The name of the game is 1) stopping/slowing the car efficiently and 2) accelerating from one "feature" (slalom, turnaround, chicago box, etc.) to the next as quickly as possible. This is the major reason why I went with a 15x7 wheel rather than a 16 or 17. Ideally, I would have gotten custom drilled Kosei K-1 in a 15x7.5, but I chose to get the 15x7 at half of that price -- I couldn't rationalize the extra four bills. There are some neat pics here: http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html showing the differences between 6.5, 7.0 and 7.5 inch wheel widths. You should get the widest wheel that you can afford to make sure that the tread gets applied more completely to the surface, and in doing so you have less deformation of the sidewall. Sure, you can wrap the 205/50-15 Falkens around a 15x6 (like the stock Miata guys often do), but you sacrifice some tread.

But, that being said, wrap the fattest frickin tire that you can around whatever wheel you use. A 225 is better than a 205 would ever be -- that's almost an inch wider x 4 wheels!

Also, with the 16 and 17's, you have a higher rotational inertia that is harder to accelerate and stop quickly, even with fantastic brakes and the torquey engines that we have -- it's just physics. It may adversely affect our top speed in any given gear, but I'll take that extra split-second of banging the limiter because I'll make it up in spades for the other four or five times of leaving a feature. And I'll bet money on that.

Additionally, keep in mind that the Falken Azenis Sport (and make sure that you ask for the Sport) is only available in limited sizes, whereas the MX has a little more diversity, especially in the larger sizes.]

One more thing -- make sure that you keep your fluids fresh, change them often and make sure to not just look under your hood before an event, get to know it. Chances are that you may break something if you don't, and it's better to spot a small pinhole in a radiator hose beforehand rather than smell it cooking in the middle of nowhere around 3:00 pm on a Sunday!

One more thing, if this thing really addicts you, keep an eye on ebay auctions for racing harnesses that bolt on to stock seat/seatbelt mounts. I have a Schroth Rallye-4 and love it, but you can get the (much) more affordable Sparco etc. ones for a fraction of the price. (I like that you can unlatch the back of the Schroth and "hide" it behind your seat)

Damn fine points, gents!!

I'm going to use this thread to jot down a wish-list and keep entering events. I probably won't stray from local events for the rest of this year. Does anyone compete in any of the Divisional/National Tour/Nationals events?

Randy

I went from 205/55-16 Azenis's to 225/50-16 MX's, and had a consistent 40 PAX DROP since. I've sent several emails to Falken, asking if they could include 225/50-16's in their Azenis line, but have never received a reply. I went 225/50 per a discussion a long time ago on here, but I probably won't do that again unless I get some wider rims

edit: about not doing double duty (street and autocross) with Azenis's... I ran them full time, and they lasted me about 16,000 miles, which included 12 events (about 42 runs, ~ 50 seconds each)

agreed on #3. As much as I wish I had a 4 point harness... a simple Torso Harness makes a night and day difference!

http://www.gforce.com/products/restraints/torsoharness.html

Morbid-

For the above tire sizes, did you mount these on the stock sized wheels?

Randy

yeah, on the factory svt 16x7's. The Azenis's have a wide tread width to begin with.

Very good points, Weargle, and my only comment is that the "width vs stiffness" debate rages constantly over on the SCCA forums. "Should I run 205 or 225?" "Will the 225's heat up enough during a run?" etc.

Also, when I said 16 or 17, I guess my point was "Don't slap 18's or 19's on your car." I agree that the best, most hardcore choice would be to run 15's with low-pro tires, but for those of us actually using our tires on the street, I'd rather recommend a size that lets us keep our final drive ratio intact. So, plus size but light weight wheels with low-pro tires, etc.

And of course, budget is a player. "...that you can afford" should be a standard caveat. But you can see from the pictures you linked to what a difference .5" makes.

Originally posted by morbid:
yeah, on the factory svt 16x7's. The Azenis's have a wide tread width to begin with.

The factory wheels are only 6.5" wide.

oops, thx

on those rims, the 205/55-16 azenis's sidewalls are perfectly veriticle, with a nice flat contact. About a year ago, I was "persuaded" by some of the elders here to go with 225/50-16's... after a long debate. As much as I still respect those individuals, I'm going back to the 205/55-16's. Unfortunetly, the Escta MX's have a harder compound than the Azenis's, so it'll probably take me another year to burn them down.

I would go STX if I were going to autox an SVT again. See this thread for my reasons.

Is there a natural progression (per the rules) from STS to STX? In oher words...I'm in G-Stock now, as I start modding the car could I hop to, say, STS next, stay there for awhile, get the mod bug again and then transition into STX? I know, I need to get a rulebook. But off the top of your heads, would this allow for the typical SVT mods while staying within Solo 2 rules?

Much Thanks,
Randy

Originally posted by Randy Gunn:
Is there a natural progression (per the rules) from STS to STX? In oher words...I'm in G-Stock now, as I start modding the car could I hop to, say, STS next, stay there for awhile, get the mod bug again and then transition into STX? I know, I need to get a rulebook. But off the top of your heads, would this allow for the typical SVT mods while staying within Solo 2 rules?

Much Thanks,
Randy

The, I repeat the mod that will bump you to STX is a LSD. The PAX isn't that much worse, but look at your competition

Any other blingy crap like a carbon fiber hood bumps you into street mod. Ouch.

Here's a good link to a class breakdown:

ER Breakdown

Originally posted by weargle:

Originally posted by Randy Gunn:
Is there a natural progression (per the rules) from STS to STX? In oher words...I'm in G-Stock now, as I start modding the car could I hop to, say, STS next, stay there for awhile, get the mod bug again and then transition into STX? I know, I need to get a rulebook. But off the top of your heads, would this allow for the typical SVT mods while staying within Solo 2 rules?

Much Thanks,
Randy

The, I repeat the mod that will bump you to STX is a LSD. The PAX isn't that much worse, but look at your competition

Any other blingy crap like a carbon fiber hood bumps you into street mod. Ouch.

Headers, too. STS allows headers, but it doesn't allow alteration/modification/deletion of any OEM emissions equipment. STX allows you to delete "pre-cats" as long as you maintain at least one cat that will allow you to pass an emissions test.

As for the LSD, I figure if I'm cracking the box open, I'm going on the Fidanza Weight-Loss Plan, which would zoom me right past STX anyway.

Originally posted by CHF_Slapaho:
Here's a good link to a class breakdown:

ER Breakdown

Keep in mind that moutons hasn't been updated in two years. Find somebody that has a 2004 SCCA handbook if there is any question.

I see me cozying up to STS for a pretty long while! I just got through playing the ton 'o mods game with a 5.0 Mustang Coupe. Tried to do so much at once, I never saw any track time. The darned thing has been sitting in my garage for about two years. Was pointed toward CP but I realized it's just too difficult for me to have a track-only (trailered) car. Bought the CSVT and hope to learn from my mistakes this time.

Randy

P.S. If you know anyone that might be interested, I'm currently parting out the Mustang

PM me with what you got for sell. My friend just bought a fox body that he is completly building up from the ground up. Let me know.