Class Shakeup! - CEG Archives

Ah, that makes sense. So it's a ratings thing then: the 180+ Azenis Sport 6/215 and Ventus Z212 are really stickier?

and when did the '05 Legacy get classed? My '05 rules don't have a listing for it, so where is it?

Ratings are made by the maker of the tire. They are not consistent between different makers.

A 200 from one maker could be a 300 from a differnt maker.

are the RE040 (140 rated) on the MSP a nice grippy tire that is not going to last that long? yes they are but they are not as grippy as something like the MX or the RT215/RT615 (or even maybe the fuzions that you have)

Legacy GT - March Fastrack - In DS

http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/05-03-fastrack.pdf

It was not eligable to compete last year as a new model.

Also all the changes are just out for member comment and may or may not actaully happen at this point.

I am hoping for the MSP -> GS to happen

That would put me directly against the top driver in my area if he sticks with the 05 Mini next year and I ran the MSP.

Originally posted by moxnix:
Ratings are made by the maker of the tire. They are not consistent between different makers.

A 200 from one maker could be a 300 from a differnt maker.

Yeah, I know that.

Quote:

Legacy GT - March Fastrack - In DS

makes sense.

Quote:

I am hoping for the MSP -> GS to happen That would put me directly against the top driver in my area if he sticks with the 05 Mini next year and I ran the MSP.

Don't these things usually happen? I haven't been around long enough to see. I'd think that one would go through. Care to take the time to write a letter about your days racing the 'tour, and note it fits well in HS now?

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
Don't these things usually happen? I haven't been around long enough to see. I'd think that one would go through. Care to take the time to write a letter about your days racing the 'tour, and note it fits well in HS now?

Dont know the last big shakeup was 02 and I was not even racing then.

I never raced the tour in stock class (damn short shifter) and I dont think it fits the class profile of the old HS. I need to look at the cars that might be going to HS closer to see if I think it fits in that group.

Originally posted by moxnix:

I never raced the tour in stock class (damn short shifter) and I dont think it fits the class profile of the old HS. I need to look at the cars that might be going to HS closer to see if I think it fits in that group.

All Ford Probes (incl the V-6 GT) move to HS, according to the Fastrack.

Contour is not mentioned. Guess our cars are better than we thought.

Good thing I don't do stock class.

What class do you race? STS/STX?

Before I even started, I had an aftermarket intake, so, yes STS, in the rare moments when I actually have time to do it.

STS is the place to be.

CSVTs have basically zero camber adjustment, on top of being heavy pigs, so they'll eat tires in GS.

Yeah, that's where I am now. Camber kit is on the way...

From the first post

GT3 is talking about getting banned because they want stock classes to stay accessable and not have a $$$$$$$$ car be "the car" to have for the class. the GT3 starts at about $100,000 and goes up depending on the options. The orginal classing was because they wanted to give them someplace to play without mods but now that it looks like it might give other cars a run for their money they are looking at tossing it out.

The C6 Z06 is being banned from stock class right now because all the C5 guys are having [censored] fits about it and right now there are no available racing tires in the correct sizes for the car but if say a tire company came out with a few correct sized tires to their contract drivers 2 weeks before the event the cars could kill SS right now.

Probe is a heavy SOB. MX6 is lighter and shares most stuff with probe but not sure about spring rates and other stuff on that one.

Mazda 3 - This is the new focus platform with the 2.3 engine. I test drove this and did not think it was in the contour class of handleing. I might have been spoiled by my time in the miata and my fond memories of the contour at the time I test drove it so it may be better than I thought. I would be suprised (but it would be a nice suprise) if it can keep up with the Mini.

Acura - RSX only the Non-S is moving the Type-S is staying in GS.

TSX - way heavy car and softly sprung so no contour there.

Civic - people are always bragging about how much better the contour is in the handleing dept than the civic so you can't have it both ways.

Tiburon - I know 2 people that AutoX Hyundai's (not the Tiburon) neither of them have anything good to say about Hyundai as an AutoX car other than that it was very cheap.

Matrix/Vibe - ummm yeah.

Nissan 200SX SE-R - I admit to knowing nothing about this car.

Celica ('94-98)- I dont know much about the setup of these other than they are a former national champ car in E-Stock back in 98-2000.

Where exactly do you think the contour fits into that grouping?

We had one older guy running his SVT in GS "picking off the sick, dead, and wounded" (his words) locally. This year he switched to STS.

His only mods when switching from stock to ST was to get a camber kit for the car and to go from victoracers to Kumho MX's.

he came in 9th of 24 in STS at the last DC event.
and 7th out of 19 at the last philly event.

Originally posted by moxnix:
From the first post

GT3 is talking about getting banned because they want stock classes to stay accessable and not have a $$$$$$$$ car be "the car" to have for the class. the GT3 starts at about $100,000 and goes up depending on the options. The orginal classing was because they wanted to give them someplace to play without mods but now that it looks like it might give other cars a run for their money they are looking at tossing it out.

The C6 Z06 is being banned from stock class right now because all the C5 guys are having [censored] fits about it and right now there are no available racing tires in the correct sizes for the car but if say a tire company came out with a few correct sized tires to their contract drivers 2 weeks before the event the cars could kill SS right now.

Probe is a heavy SOB. MX6 is lighter and shares most stuff with probe but not sure about spring rates and other stuff on that one.

Mazda 3 - This is the new focus platform with the 2.3 engine. I test drove this and did not think it was in the contour class of handleing. I might have been spoiled by my time in the miata and my fond memories of the contour at the time I test drove it so it may be better than I thought. I would be suprised (but it would be a nice suprise) if it can keep up with the Mini.

Acura - RSX only the Non-S is moving the Type-S is staying in GS.

TSX - way heavy car and softly sprung so no contour there.

Civic - people are always bragging about how much better the contour is in the handleing dept than the civic so you can't have it both ways.

Tiburon - I know 2 people that AutoX Hyundai's (not the Tiburon) neither of them have anything good to say about Hyundai as an AutoX car other than that it was very cheap.

Matrix/Vibe - ummm yeah.

Nissan 200SX SE-R - I admit to knowing nothing about this car.

Celica ('94-98)- I dont know much about the setup of these other than they are a former national champ car in E-Stock back in 98-2000.

Where exactly do you think the contour fits into that grouping?

You're asking me?

First off, I'm not a "class whiner," so you're not going to get much out of me, there.

Mainly, I find it funny that the SVT and all other V-6 Contours are in GS, and that the I4 Contours are in HS. That makes it obvious to me that if you have a Non-SVT, V-6 Contour then you need to be in STS where you have a better chance at levelling the playing field with the SVT.

Now, I find it funny and a bit odd that the V6 Probe GT (purportedly a hot little sport-hatch) moves to HS, while the 4-door family car remains in GS. Again, I don't really give a damn, but I'm curious about how this stuff gets decided. I guess we Contour owners are just not a whiny bunch like those Probe guys (just kidding, in case you're reading this.) How heavy is the Probe?

I think he was talking to me... I'm the class whiner. Well, not really, since you can't seriously race a Contour stock anyway. I'd say camber plates and rear swaybar are the minimum for a decent-handling car, which puts you right in STS. I understand the conceptual fit idea, which has made me re-think the HS-Contour thing. It's not about equal times, it's about similar cars, so we should be racing with the 318, A4, VW 1.8Ts, etc., not Probes and old Celicas and Saturns.

Originally posted by RogerB:
You're asking me?

Mainly, I find it funny that the SVT and all other V-6 Contours are in GS, and that the I4 Contours are in HS. That makes it obvious to me that if you have a Non-SVT, V-6 Contour then you need to be in STS where you have a better chance at levelling the playing field with the SVT.

How heavy is the Probe?

Note - This is my opinion and is not stated as facts just as one persons opinion.

I thought the same when I first started but then I started looking at the specs on both a little closer. I am not so sure that the SE can't compete with the SVT. The springs are the same on both the V6 manual (98+) and the SVT. The SVT has better front shocks but you can replace them in stock class so no advantage there. The 95-97 (IIRC) SE has stiffer springs. The advantages the SVT has in stock class are.

1. Rims 16X6.5
SE has 15X6
2. Rear sway. If you have the early SE you have the same rear sway bar. You can change the front.
3. Brakes? not as much of an advantage as you might think they are also more weight.
4. more HP/higher redline. This will depends on the course. The SE gets max torque (165) at 4250 rpm while the SVT gets max (170) at 5500 rpm. I could not find stock dyno charts to look at the power curves. On most courses you find yourself digging out of corners more than you find yourself holding the rev limiter. Also some of the power would be from the exhaust that you could replace in stock class.

The SVT also weighs a lot more than the 2000 SE. The 2000 SE did not have the side skirts from the early SE's and was avaliable with cloth seats. It does not have the interior refinement of the SVT but it also does not have all the extra weight.

Just starting out I was about 4-6 seconds behind a guy running an SVT in stock class. He ran Victoracers and Koni's with an AutoX alignment. I ran MX's with stock 142,000 mile shocks and a standard alignment(in STS because of the short shifter) He started AutoXing before I was born and does good for his car/class.

Edmunds - 2000 SVT - 3126 lbs.
Edmunds - 2000 SE Sport - 2769 lbs.
Edmunds - 1995 Contour - 2769 lbs.
Edmunds - 1995 Probe - 2921 lbs.

Mostly it is decided by people writing letters about the classing citing reasons that this car or another car should be placed in whatever class. After the letter is written and sent it goes to the advisory committe. There it is either recomended or not based on what the committe thinks about it (IIRC) they are then put out for member comment so that other people who might know more about the cars can write in about them.

If you feel that the contour should be classed in HS go ahead and write letters. I just dont feel that it belongs there and while not competive where it is classed I think it is currently classed correctly. My opinion might change based on new cars being classed into HS or other car that get moved out of GS but that is my current opinion and I could be wrong.

Dammit, quit poking holes in my excuses!

Actually, you prompted me to do a comparison.

Using MSN Autos, which I've found to be a bit more reliable on model differences, I find the following:

Car-------------Weight-------HP/rpm-------Tq/rpm
96 Contour SE----2985-------170/6250-----165/4250
00 SVT Contour---3129-------200/6600-----169/5500
96 Probe GT------2921-------164/5600-----160/4000
96 Contour ------2769-------125/5500-----127/3000

The Zetec GL is, of course, an old soldier of HS.

Given the numbers, you're absolutely right about the on-paper competitiveness of the SE against the SVT. The hp advantage of the SVT does not give it a huge advantage in autocross, esp when you consider the only slight bump in torque, coupled with the high-strung shape of the torque curve.

The Probe, though, at least in GT trim, seems like it ought to stay in GS. It's lighter than an SE, with similar power numbers, along with a lower and wider stance. It also has 16" wheels with wider stock rubber than an SVT. Do you really think it belongs next to the 4-cyl Contour? My gut tells me that there will be some clarification on this matter before the rule becomes final.

Reference:

MSN Comparison

Originally posted by RogerB:
Dammit, quit poking holes in my excuses!

Using MSN Autos, which I've found to be a bit more reliable on model differences,

Given the numbers, you're absolutely right about the on-paper competitiveness of the SE against the SVT. The hp advantage of the SVT does not give it a huge advantage in autocross, esp when you consider the only slight bump in torque, coupled with the high-strung shape of the torque curve.

Probe GT. Do you really think it belongs next to the 4-cyl Contour? My gut tells me that there will be some clarification on this matter before the rule becomes final.

-> Poke

Thanks for the comparison. I pulled up the 2000 SE Sport that I used to have and MSN autos listed it at 2769 lbs just like the GL. Does your SE have the body cladding? That would add some of the weight. The larger bolsters on the seats might add a bit also (yeah pulling out all the stops to figure out the weight here

)

after looking at your listings the probe/MX6 may not belong there either. I had always heard it was heavy because of the hatchback. without knowing lots more about the probe that I don't feel like researching right now (suspension setup? any factory allowances for "crash bolts" or other method of camber adjustment?, Dyno plots?, gear ratios?, spring rates?) I can't say to much more about if I think it belongs or not.

That is why it is out for member comment right now. So they can figure out if this is where it belongs.

The 2769 is listed for the 4 cyl GL, so there's a small piece of it, right there. I also don't know what options (such as leather) they might be assuming.

Only way to know exactly is to go and weigh them all.

My point is that, at least on paper, the later Probe GT (at least) is conceptually similar to the Contours in GS.

Suspension-wise, it's fully independent (according to MSN), but I don't know anything else.

I think the later GT is an oversight. The 4-banger Probes may belong in HS, if they're not there already.

My 2000 SE was the V6.

It is listed as the same weight as the 1996 4 Cyl GL on MSN Autos.

Newer = lighter?(all from MSN Autos)

1998 LX - 2811 (I4, Manual)
1999 LX - 2769 (I4, Auto) 2603 (I4, Manual)
1999 SE - 2774 (I4, Manual)
2000 SE - 2769 (V6, Manual)

Curb weight should be the weight of the car full of fluids with all standard options.

4 banger 89-92 (non-turbo) probe is in HS the 89-92 turbo and 93+ (all) probes are in GS.

I almost agree with you on the GT but since as I said I do not know the details of the car or setup there might be something I am missing while bench racing here.

I've heard the 4-banger is heavier. Cast Iron vs. Aluminum, you know. SVT has power seats and windows, leather, body crap... I've said it before: give me a 95 SE over a 1998-9 SVT any day. 2000 is a tougher call.

Originally posted by Auto-X Fil:
I've heard the 4-banger is heavier. Cast Iron vs. Aluminum, you know. SVT has power seats and windows, leather, body crap... I've said it before: give me a 95 SE over a 1998-9 SVT any day. 2000 is a tougher call.

The Zetec is not heavier than the Duratec V-6, but it's only (IIRC) about 40 lbs lighter because of the materials choice (iron.)

Was the 2000 SE available with leather?

What class is the escort gt in?

Roger: I don't know if you could get leather or not in 2000 SE. I did not want it so did not look for it.

Kremit: I only see listings for the escort in H-Stock (I am assuming it is completly stock) If it has mods that class would change.

My CSVT in STS autox trim (1/8 tank gas, no spare tire, 15x7s) weighs 3020#.

I just saw the latest correction to the Oct Fastrack and sorry to those that wrote in to try to move the contour but.

Quote:

Member letter 05-164 - Reclassify Ford Contour to H Stock - Not recommended

http://www.scca.org/garage/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2547&PN=1&TPN=1

They are waiting until after nationals to decide on the MSP so I am still hoping for it to move down.