FORD SAYS - Condensor has slow leak in seam for AC

Originally posted by eric1:
Condenser is High side pressure. Relief on r-134a is usually 380 PSI.
Working pressures on the car are in the 150 to 200 PSI range with excursions into 300 psi not unusual.

Okay,

Here is an overview of your AC system in case you wondered how it all worked...

Compressor -> Accumulator(Dryer) -> Evaporator -> Orifice -> Condensor -> Compressor.

Everything between the Compressor and the Orifice is HIGH PRESSURE.
Everything between the Orifice and the Compressor is LOW Pressure.
The Orifice is a very small tube, surrounded by a very fine filter.
This is the only part responsible for the HIGH/LOW side pressures,
and can cause a lot of problems if it is clogged with metal shavings
from a worn out and poorly lubricated compressor.

You should find this valve and replace it if needed.
It is easy to locate, just follow the hose route and somethere where there is a union,
between the evaporator and the condensor, you will see dimples on one side, in the tubing.
The dimples hold the Orifice tube in place.
Open the union and remove the Orifice tube and take a good look at it.
If it is clean and full of oil, then your compressor and AC system is fine.
Then you can just put it back.
If it looks dirty and full of metal grit, like the metal grit in the bottom of a tranny pan,
then you will need to replace your compressor and accumulator.

Now, the parts are named this for their function...
The COMPRESSOR takes the R134a and compresses it, turning it into a LIQUID, and pumping it through the AC Line.
The LIQUID, under HIGH PRESSURE cannot be forced through the Evaporator quickly, so it ACCUMULATES in the Accumulator(or Dryer).
From the Accumulator, the R134a flows into the EVAPORATOR.
The Evaporator is called so because, high pressure R134a enters as LIQUID and leaves as a GAS (evaporates).
The blower fan inside your car draws hot air through the evaporator
and the liquid R134a removes the heat from the air, making the air cold.
The high pressure liquid then turns to a high pressure GAS (EVAPORATING) from the change in temperature.
This GAS then passes through the ORIFICE, which regulates the flow of the gas.
Once through the Orifice, there is a change in pressure.
Now the R134a is a MODERATE PRESSURE HEATED gas.
The R134a, in this state, enters the CONDENSOR.
In the CONDENSOR, the outside airflow, either being drawn by the electric cooling fans,
or flowing through the radiator as you drive, removes the HEAT from the R134a,
that it absorbed when it passed through the Evaporator.
This effectively makes the GAS change from a low density to a HIGH Density gas(CONDENSATION).
This works much like a Intercooler for a Turbo.
Cooling a gas makes the gas higher in density.
This also changes the pressure from moderate to LOW.
A higher density gas takes up less space than a lower density gas.
Now the gas is then drawn into the Compressor, to be pressurized, liquified, and then back around the AC Route again.

Now than you understand how the AC system works, troubleshooting it will be much easier.

Well I just threw another 12 oz can of Primus into the system's low side ( takes about oh 15 to 20 min or so with your ac on max and fan on high ) .. and the thermometers in the vehicle had it at 55 deg and the hygrometer had 39%.

I would say 55 deg is pretty respectable.

The pressure according to the dial on the self fill kit said about 70 psi (low pressure intake).

Well it's wednesday about 615pm , i think i put the last can in about 4 something pm. Lets see how long it remains cold for ...

You should get about 40 degrees out of the center vent on a properly charged system.

i removed condensor, it's easy if you have the ford a/c line removal tools. I'll sell u my old condensor for real cheap (should be fine, compressor leaked but condensor was fine) though of course no warranty on it. and i had my car tested for the leak for like $15.

--------------------
IF YOU HAD BEEN READING THE POSTS .. you would have seen:
1) The condensor has already been replaced with a salvage condensor
2) I have a 30 day warranty on my replacement condensor
3) I had my card tested for leak by Ford for about $60 .

Why are you not reading the history ?

Originally posted by RoadRunner:

Originally posted by eric1:
Condenser is High side pressure. Relief on r-134a is usually 380 PSI.
Working pressures on the car are in the 150 to 200 PSI range with excursions into 300 psi not unusual.

Okay,

Here is an overview of your AC system in case you wondered how it all worked...

Compressor -> Accumulator(Dryer) -> Evaporator -> Orifice -> Condensor -> Compressor.

Everything between the Compressor and the Orifice is HIGH PRESSURE.
Everything between the Orifice and the Compressor is LOW Pressure.
The Orifice is a very small tube, surrounded by a very fine filter.
This is the only part responsible for the HIGH/LOW side pressures,
and can cause a lot of problems if it is clogged with metal shavings
from a worn out and poorly lubricated compressor.

Compressor -> Condenser -> Accumulator -> orifice (Or expansion Valve) -> Evaporator -> Compressor

Compressor - Low pressure Cold gas compressed to High pressure hot gas
Condenser - Hot gas "condensed" to high pressure liquid
Accumulator - Gives room for expansion, contraction, sort of a reservoir - can also filter and dry. Some systems have separate accumulators and filter/driers.
Orifice : High Pressure liquid to low pressure liquid
Evaporator : low pressure liquid, boiled by heat in air, becomes low pressure gas
Back to compressor to start cycle over.

FWIW, I think road-runner knew this (IMHO) and just typed it in the wrong sequence. The rest of his statements are absolutely corrrect.

AS RR said, every thing from the compressor to the orifice is high pressure when running. When the system is off, the pressure equalizes in the system and will be at a pressure that corrresponds to the saturated pressure of 134a for the ambient temperature.

Well - Umm.. it was too good to be true.. it stayed cold about 2 days then it was luke warm ..

I recall being able to pull the fittings apart even after I had fully pushed them together and visually verified the springs were outside the fitting (what a [censored] of a pain to get your hand and that tool and wiggle the aluminum pipe ).

This could be the problem that the salvage condensor connector springs aren't fully sealing - of course the I havent UV checked the replacement condensor yet .. but I suspect the connector point .. what a pain in the arse...

Pepboys never did call me back in 9 days indicating that the replacement new condensor was in so I got my $151.31 (inc. tax) back --- not too much of a surprise there - but my answering machine may have been full for a few days ..

I am going to start this mother up and see if the compressor kicks on with ac on ... I suspect not , it doesnt come on when there is insufficient pressure.
The result is - as expected, no compressor turning and no radiator fan comes on. Next week its going tobe in the 90's and won't be fun as I use the car during the day for my job.

I guess I should put a can of UV in the thing and see what I can see with my little LED penlight and special yellow goggle-glasses.

Maybe I should vacuum the system and refill it and see what happens before putting UV in .. I don't know what I'm doing and I'm dumping a lot of money into this .. but I would be dumping more money to someone who knew what they were doing .. and I don't have any to spare really.

****************** I wonder if NOT vacuuming the system for 20 min is what has caused something to malfunction.

Originally posted by eric1:

--------------------
IF YOU HAD BEEN READING THE POSTS .. you would have seen:
1) The condensor has already been replaced with a salvage condensor
2) I have a 30 day warranty on my replacement condensor
3) I had my card tested for leak by Ford for about $60 .

Why are you not reading the history ?

sorry i read u'r post and quickly typed something that I thought mite helped. i read that you had it tested by ford and i put how much i paid to have mine tested to let you know ford dealers rip you off and let others now.
i was trying to offer you a cheap fix if you needed a condensor. sorry i'll make sure to not try to help you again.

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sorry i read u'r post and quickly typed something that I thought mite helped. i read that you had it tested by ford and i put how much i paid to have mine tested to let you know ford dealers rip you off and let others now.
i was trying to offer you a cheap fix if you needed a condensor. sorry i'll make sure to not try to help you again.

I'm sorry man ,.. just very frustrated by this whole pain in the ass.. I just typed in a very long reply and lost that too... so double the frustration...

and then i took out my $14 LED UV light source with yellow glasses last night and looked around and low and behold -
there was a large dripped area on the left of the radiator protector at bottom cowling ( you know the one with the several star screw-bolts of which you probably are missing a couple) . Also the little fold down datch in this cowling had several drips of it .

It must be coming from the compressor OR the stupid spring fittings . I speculate the connector spring fittings .. if I was able to pull 1 apart after it was thought to have been connected, that can't be a good connection when your talking several hundred PSI going through there.

But jacking the car in a crowded garage is no fun and you can't do it outside because, you need it dark to see the UV dye glow.

I hate to do it but I beleive I must do it tonight because I only have 30 days return on the salvage condensor, and if it is because of the spring connectors ( I beleive one of which is on the condensor - yes - One is on the condensor and one on the car - so the thing to determine is wether it is the spring connector leak on the car or on the condensor or both! )

Originally posted by tomtoursvt:
Are you sure it's not a leak in one of the hoses.
If it blew cold air out for 5 days and then got warmer, then it sounds like you may have a slow leak like I do. The hoses Ford uses are p.o.s..
I put some dye in with the coolant and noticed a bunch of pin size holes on the top a/c hose.

LEAK OR COOLANT LOW ????

MY MYSTIQUE 99 WITH 22,000 MILES, HAS AC PROBLEMS.
AM TAKING TO DEALER IN TWO DAYS BUT QUESTION THAT I NEED TO RESOLVE IS WHETHER IT WILL BE COVERED BY MY FORD EXTRA CARE WARRANTY??
FORD DEALER SAYS THAT: IF IT A LEAK, THEY WILL COVER IT AFTER I PAY THE DEDUCTIBLE $100.
IT IS NOT A LEAK, I WILL PAY ABOUT 70 FOR A CHECKUP AND FILLUP OF COOLANT.
KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CARS SO CANNOT ARGUE WITH THEM.
HOW DO WE KNOW IF THERE IS LEAK OR NOT?
IS THERE A GENERAL PROBLEM ABOUT THE LEAK IN SEAL???
WOULD APPRECIATE ANY INPUT FROM ALL YOU KNOWLEDGABLE GUYS.
THANK YOU EVER SO MUCH.

if you only have 22k miles .. it cant be a leak UNLESS the car has gone through something like off roading that it wassnt designed for .. it must be coolant low ... but it could be a leak if say .. it was a friday or a monday when they put your car together and it is lacking inferior workmanship

Anyway , the dealer should fix it with that low of mileage..
but it sucks that you have to still shell out $100 to do it !

You must replace the 2 O-ring seals (1 is green) -
and in my case the springs are bad too ..

and the tech said to bring them down so he could match them .. because the kit has too much stuff init\

Well i have some orings .. but .. the spring .. that is something i wont be able to match so if i have to get the damn spring i might as well buy the o rings from them too .. ;(

nobady saiyd anything about the vaccuum application as far as where do i do it..
obviously i do it with the engine off...

do i apply it at the low side and the high side ?

or is just the low side what is desired

(20 to 30 minutes) ...

well i tried vaccuuming the low side.. with my hand vaccuum pump ..

i dont think i want to do anything on the high side ---
well im going to go get another can of dye i guess and see what happens again .. by the way , the orings were different prices at one ford dealer .. one guy was kind of being non helpful and wanted $4 a piece ! another guy at another dealer was very helpful and they were 52 cents a piece (you need 4 ) ..

for some reason i think the schraeder valve is of a 1 way design ... because when i connected my freon adding hose to a can and i drilled a hole in the empty can and inserted my mity vac hand vaccuum pump to it i am able to get about 25 psi of vaccuum ( i think thats the unit .. or maybe its inches of mercury .. ..)

anyway , i added a can of freon .. and then i tried adding oil .. i had a partly used can which i tipped upside down hoping as the compressor kicked on and off the oil would be added into the system .. it's hard to tell by hand weight feel if 20 cc got in there or not ... i suppose i could dump some more $$ into a can of r 134a that has 2 oz of oil in it ... but i really need to get the can of UV .. so i can see if this mother is going to leak again after i replaced the o-rings ...

againg , i only have 30 days to return the salvage part back to the yard ..i suspect i will be surpised in the next day or 2 by what i f ind .. as the system is now, it is half charged and it does blow cold .. but not very cold..

incidentally i struck up a conversation with a guy getting some ac stuff in the store and he said R12, the real freyon ,the type of stuff used in refrigerators ,can get much colder than r134a ...

anyways.. i ll keep u updated with whether this nice system maintains its self and maintains its coolness for a long time...

You have to evacuate the system with an Evacuator.
The evacuator will reach at least 30 in/lbs of of vacuum in the system
which is enough to rid the system of any moisture.
The vacuum has to stay at least for 30 minutes to insure there are NO LEAKS.
If the system will NOT hold the vacuum then there is a leak, and the leak needs to be repaired.

Using a HAND VAC PUMP will not accomplish this.

Shreader valve is a spring loaded valve.
It is either open or closed.
There aren't any one way, or anyways to it.
If you don't press it down far enough, it won't open fully.

Well .. thanks for the info on the vaccuum amount and source .

You indicate it can't be a hand vac, and that it must be 30 in per # maintained for 30 minutes and that the system must hold this otherwise there is a leak. And if there is a leak, the way to detect it (this info you didn't provide in your latest post) is :

1) air pressure and a sniffer ( Expensive shop equipment)
2) UV dye added to R134A and a UV LED pen light ( DIY cheap
method to get by for most larger leaks )

I understand the hand vac is not a 3/4 horse motor with reciprocating piston and valve so the vacuum amount is less, but none-the-less , it is vaccuum and some must be better than none.

Well when I did hook up the mity-vac, it did hold the 25psi for like 20 min.. I left it and when I came back it was the same vaccuum, so I imagine it heald on the low side.

But you didn't mention anything about using the low side in favor of the high side schraeder valve .... or what is it exactly that the occasion arrises to use the high side port for ?

You check the pressure differentials between the 2 to see if they are according to spec ?_

I have heard people talking about 'pulling ' the stuff

f through with vaccuum.. is this what u do to fill the system with the engine off is apply vaccuum at the high side and open a can of R134A applied to the low side ?

Originally posted by eric1:
Well .. thanks for the info on the vaccuum amount and source .

You indicate it can't be a hand vac, and that it must be 30 in per # maintained for 30 minutes and that the system must hold this otherwise there is a leak. And if there is a leak, the way to detect it (this info you didn't provide in your latest post) is :

1) air pressure and a sniffer ( Expensive shop equipment)
2) UV dye added to R134A and a UV LED pen light ( DIY cheap
method to get by for most larger leaks )

I understand the hand vac is not a 3/4 horse motor with reciprocating piston and valve so the vacuum amount is less, but none-the-less , it is vaccuum and some must be better than none.

Some is not better than none. 25 inches does not remove any moisture. you must get down below 29 inches(mercury) before any moisture will boil off inside and can be removed. 25 inches also leaves quite a lot of air in the system, which will create high pressure in the condenser and reduce the performance significantly of the evaporator.

Quote:

Well when I did hook up the mity-vac, it did hold the 25psi for like 20 min.. I left it and when I came back it was the same vaccuum, so I imagine it heald on the low side.

But you didn't mention anything about using the low side in favor of the high side schraeder valve .... or what is it exactly that the occasion arrises to use the high side port for ?

You check the pressure differentials between the 2 to see if they are according to spec ?_

I have heard people talking about 'pulling ' the stuff f through with vaccuum.. is this what u do to fill the system with the engine off is apply vaccuum at the high side and open a can of R134A applied to the low side ?

The vacuum can be pulled from high or low side, doesn't matter. Compressor off. vacuum is in inches of mercury. 29.9 will get you a dehydrating (Removes water)vacuum. If there is no leaks, but some liquid water, the pressure will still increase somewhat as the water turns to vapor. That's why at least a half hour is necessary. Gives time for all water to vaporize and be removed. After pulling the vacuum, letting it sit and seeing if the pressure rises is a good leak test. Bear in mind, some joints leak under pressure but not under vacuum and vice a versa too. While under vacuum, you add r-134a (liquid, can upside down) while NOT running to low side. Not sure of exact weight, but cans are 12 oz. and the car should have a label saying how much is needed. Use a scale to weigh cans full, then empty. After putting in as much liquid as the system will take (without going over full charge weight), the compressor should be runnable. Add GAS (Can upright) to low side, weighing amount put in, until you have added the correct amount of r-134a. A/C should work great.

There are other ways to do this, but this is the correct way. Other methods may lead to overcharging and damaged components.

Pulling a vacuum, BTW, just means hooking up the vacuum pump and removing the air and moisture from a system. You are "pulling" them out of the system.

Originally posted by eric1:

incidentally i struck up a conversation with a guy getting some ac stuff in the store and he said R12, the real freyon ,the type of stuff used in refrigerators ,can get much colder than r134a ...

Not true. My company (CArrier A/C) has replaced r-12 with r-134 in our industrial units. They do the same temperatures. I just left a job here we make -20F Brine.

Freon is a Brand name (DuPont's) for r-12
Allied Signal R-12 : Genetron
Carrier: Carrene 12

R-134a is SUVA (DuPont)

Refrigerators don't usually use r-12, they use r-22 which is now replaced with r-134a or other refrigerants (r-410, others).

Most window units in your home are r-22.

The guy getting A/C stuff must have limited experience.

Now, if he said that an R-12 car system that is converted to r-134a isn't as cold, he would be right. R-12 is slightl;y denser than r-134a so the orifice sizes, amount of refrigerant needed and some other little details make a conversion job inefficient. For instance, the compressor needs to run a little faster for r-134a than r-12. In new cars, pulley sizes are changed. In retrofits, it isn't changed (usually) and the system can not cool well at engine idle.

FYI for everyone.

if you are pretty sure you dont have a leak this is what i did... the wires going to the high side cut off valve(the insulation came off and the wires crossed, so the valve would not cut off.. high pressure and the high pressure service valve blew.... i ordered another valve for $20 from the dealer and then went to auto zone and bought two cans of R-134A and a $19.00 service hose with a small meter on it to put some r-134 in it.. I have an old vacuum pump for the old R-12 system but it does not fit the new R134 hoses... so i just put some freon in the low pressure side and then let the R-134 blow out the high pressure service valve..... this got the air out... i then kept adding the freon in until the compressor finally came on and started pumping..... in no time one can was empty... i then attached the second can and it continued to charge up and the compressor stopped clicking off/on/off/on..........
just about finished the second can and it seemed like it had enough freon in it as the inside of the car was cold as can be expected.... that was about three months ago.. so far no problems... still works pretty good.....

when the old freon blew out the valve it did hot have any oil with it.. i checked around and did not find any on the lining of the hood or other engine parts so i did not have to worry about any oil loss.......

Originally posted by dbird:
if you are pretty sure you dont have a leak this is what i did... the wires going to the high side cut off valve(the insulation came off and the wires crossed, so the valve would not cut off.. high pressure and the high pressure service valve blew.... i ordered another valve for $20 from the dealer and then went to auto zone and bought two cans of R-134A and a $19.00 service hose with a small meter on it to put some r-134 in it.. I have an old vacuum pump for the old R-12 system but it does not fit the new R134 hoses... so i just put some freon in the low pressure side and then let the R-134 blow out the high pressure service valve..... this got the air out... i then kept adding the freon in until the compressor finally came on and started pumping..... in no time one can was empty... i then attached the second can and it continued to charge up and the compressor stopped clicking off/on/off/on..........
just about finished the second can and it seemed like it had enough freon in it as the inside of the car was cold as can be expected.... that was about three months ago.. so far no problems... still works pretty good.....

when the old freon blew out the valve it did hot have any oil with it.. i checked around and did not find any on the lining of the hood or other engine parts so i did not have to worry about any oil loss.......

FWIW, you broke the law letting the refrigerant intentionally vent to atmosphere. If caught, you could have a $50,000 Fine. Plus, if someone turned you in, I believe there is a bounty/reward. I doubt you will caught(I hope your not), but just wanted to make clear that your way is illegal and environmentally unsound and unnecessary. A 6 yr. old in Fla was cited for running an illegal business, ie: lemonade stand and was turned in for no reward by an irate neighbor. Imagine if that neighbor seen you and turned you in for a reward.

While your way works, so does kidnapping a certified A/C repairman and forcing him (or her) to repair your car at gunpoint. It works, but is illegal.

Second, while you put a usable amount of r-134a in the system, had you accidently overcharged it, you could of had a system rupture or relief valve blow off. If liquid r-134a contacts skin or eyes, you can be severly burned (Yes, burned by cold) or blinded. If someone on this board does this and does not stop adding r-134a at the right time, they could be injured. It is not in our best interest to recommend unsafe and dangerous ways of repairing our cars. This is like telling someone to climb under a jacked up vehicle without using jackstands. The danger of the car falling off the jack is high and just because someone did it without the car killing them does not make it a good way to do it. I am not preaching- nevermind, I AM preaching, but I think it is worthwhile to discourage unsafe and/or illegal practices. The site has a street racing discussion ban for this same reason.

So .. the performance of the system is sub par ..
I can start it .. and it blows cool .. but not cold ..
perhaps this is all because I have not vacuumed the system

1) for 30 minutes
2) at at least ~ 30 in. Hg

(Mercury or quicksilver[from the Roman god Mercury], metallic chemical element; symbol Hg [Lat. hydrargyrum=liquid silver]; at. no. 80; at. wt. 200.59; m.p. -38.842°C; b.p. 356.58°C; sp. gr. 13.55 at 20°C; valence +1 or +2. Mercury was discovered in antiquity, and was known to the ancient Chinese, Hindus, and Egyptians, but was not recognized as an element. It was used as a medicine by Paracelsus. It was first recognized as a chemical element (in the modern sense) by A. L. Lavoisier about the end of the 18th cent.

[ Sorry about the above but I wanted to verify that Hg was the proper element symbol] - as long as we're all getting
advanced discussion regarding AC, why not !?

And since we're learning things , why not the vacuum
discourse as well ?

vacuum, theoretically, space without matter in it. A perfect vacuum has never been obtained; the best man-made vacuums contain less than 100,000 gas molecules per cc, compared to about 30 billion billion (30�?1018) molecules for air at sea level. The most nearly perfect vacuum exists in intergalactic space, where it is estimated that on the average there is less than one molecule per cubic meter. In ancient times the belief that �??nature abhors a vacuum�?� was held widely and persisted without serious question until the late 16th and early 17th cent., when the experimental observations of Galileo and the Italian physicist Evangelista Torricelli demonstrated its essential fallacy. Torricelli obtained a nearly perfect vacuum (Torricellian vacuum) in his mercury barometer. A common but incorrect belief is that a vacuum causes �??suction.�?� Actually the apparent suction caused by a vacuum is the pressure of the atmosphere tending to rush in and fill the unoccupied space. There are various methods for producing a vacuum, and several different kinds of vacuum pumps. have been devised for removing the molecules of gas or vapor from a confined space. In the rotary oil-sealed pump a rotor turning in a cylinder allows gas to enter through an inlet valve from a space to be evacuated and then pushes it through an outlet valve into the atmosphere. In the oil or mercury diffusion pump, gas enters the pump through an inlet and is then swept toward an outlet by heavy, fast-moving oil or mercury vapor molecules. The outlet is connected to a rotary pump that expels the gas into the atmosphere. A cryogenic pump removes gas from a container by condensing the gas molecules on an extremely cold surface in the container. An ion pump consists of a chamber containing a source of electrons that are used to bombard gas molecules from a container to be evacuated. Collisions between the electrons and gas molecules ionize the molecules, causing them to be drawn to, and held by, a collector in the pump. The first vacuum pump was invented by the German physicist Otto von Guerricke in 1650. There are many practical applications of vacuums in industry and scientific research, e.g., in vacuum distillation, vacuum processing of food, in devices such as the vacuum tube, vacuum bottle, and barometer, and in research machines.

3]
I observed with my UV pen light and goggles last night that there is trace r134A around the seal area , I can see a ring around the spring, but this could be from the previous UV charge as stuff spilled out when I pulled the connector apart to replace the O-rings -
As others' have posted, the performance of the system is sub-par without the removal of air and water vapor from the closed system -- until I have eliminated the most obvious
methods (vacuuming system as part of the procedure when a part is replaced) I shouldn't presume the system is good.

I haven't done anything at the high side port of the system,
in fact the cap was missing & I have it taped up with electrical tape. Is this bad ? Does it need the special cap to be able to expel at certain times ?

So, I have this old refrigerator pump -- It is more like a 1/2 HP motor belt driving what looks like a air compressor cylinder (they made them like this in the 50's I believe - the newer ones have a more efficient rotary pump) ..

I will play with it and dump tons of time into making fittings to be able to suck the system dry .. because, this must be the last line of defense this system has in not working ! Boy I'm learning alot, don't have much of a life, but just really making headway on making a mess.

This is what we use at Carrier for LARGE machinery:

You can read about it here: Vacuum Pump

Robinaire makes lighter duty vac. Pumps and those are used more by automotive and residential repair people.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:
This is what we use at Carrier for LARGE machinery:

{Image & Link}

Robinaire makes lighter duty vac. Pumps and those are used more by automotive and residential repair people.

Torr! Torr! Torr!? or Tora! Tora! Tora!?

Where I worked, we had high vacuum deposition systems and used high vacuum pumps like this one to test the chamber plumbing for leaks. It was neat to connect one of these to a glass bell jar with a little dish of H2O in it and watch the water start to boil, at room temp, as the vacuum approached pressures of only a few microns (0.001 mm).

Water vapor is one of the toughest things to pump and on humid days, pump-down times lengthened significantly when working in uncontrolled, high humidity areas.

If you can get your hands on an old, working refrigerator compressor (watch out, some really, really old systems used Ammonia or SO2 for the refrigerant gas), you can use it as a A/C vacuum pump as long as you squirt a little refrigerant oil into it from time to time (use PAG oil for R-134a systems). They'll pull enough vacuum to dry the system out.

We use these high capacity pumps because the systems we work on hold as much as 20,000 lbs (Twenty Thousand) of refrigerant.

We don't use 12oz cans. For the large systems a tractor trailer tank truck pulls up. For our "Smaller" systems we use 1 tonners (2000 lbs) and for our little stuff we use 125 lb capacity cylinders. Some places you can't get a truck to or get the 1 ton cylinders in so we use lots of 125 lber's.

I get my refrigerant for personal use from the "leftover" condensed out of the 125lbr's.

well i went to home depot, bought some flex tube that said 170psi rated (yes i know suck and blow have different affects on materials) .. anyway , i didnt see the tube cave in... i hooked up an automotive vacuum guage with tapered end to the tube and it was a 3/16" ID tube and kind of heated it to open it enuf to slip it onto hte copper tube of the fridge pump where I had hack sawed it free from the condensor/evaporator unit.

Anyway, after 15 min or so of quiet operation from the 1/8HP motor and pump built like a tank, the best i could get was not even 24 inches of vacuum ... This surely is not 29.9 and therefore wouldnt do the job according to the guy from NJ ....

My other idea was to use the intake of an old 3.5 HP b&s lawnmower engine not in use .. to use it's vacuum on the carburetor side to see if it gives more suck than the fridge pump ... what do you think ,?

Do I have a leak in my little rig .. will an internal combustion engine give more vacuum than the fridge pump ?

Should I get a rotary pump off a newer fridge or dehumidifier or air conditioner ?

JC Whitney has anj air operated "pump" (uses an ejector, a form of orifice) that is cheap $24 IIRC. This will do it.

Most recip or rotary compressors for refrigeration duty will not pull below 25in. Hg and a B&S lawn mower won't either.

It is difficult to get below 25" Hg without a purpose built vacuum device.

Originally posted by Contouraholic:

I get my refrigerant for personal use from the "leftover" condensed out of the 125lbr's.

I wish I could get my paws on just a few lbs of R-22. After 15 or so years since its last charge goose, my home central A/C looks like it could do with just a little topping off. The sight glass has gotten a little "bubbly" this year and I don't feel like dealing with a local A/C contractor telling me "Aw, you should get this system replaced." (yeah, for $3-$4K) It's been working fine for the last 25 years - if it ain't broke, don't replace it.

I used to be able to get it from work (30 pounder leftovers), but they can't buy it anymore 'cuz no one's a certified A/C tech there and they've farmed out the A/C service to Elliot Lewis.

cheapest i saw was $229 .

http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=188974&FID=3614&BQ=jcw2

perhaps i need to search a little more...

I checked and was surprised. I had seen this for 24.99 on sale in the JCW catalog:

Quote:

MINI VACUUM PUMP

* Smaller and lighter than conventional electric or air-powered vacuum pumps.
* Removes moisture from air conditioning system before adding refrigerant.

Rugged metal housing. Completely maintenance-free: venturi-type pump has no moving parts, needs no oil. Requires 4.5-cfm/90-psi air supply. Rated 1.3 cfm. 5"W x 5-3/8"H x 6"D, 4.1 lbs. Produces 29.75" Hg vacuum. Includes instructions.

It's 67.99, a bit more than I think one should spend for an occasional job.

that same thing goes for about $14 to $25 on ebay .. without fail..

do a search for vacuum pump

here's one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2331633034&category=11704

here's another

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6755&item=2421476592

this is a simple venturi effect device I think .. you supply high pressure with your probably at least 3/4 hp compressor 90psi ..

this is a simple device like a black box ..

I think all it does is have a pass through of your pressure and takes the vacuum off a venturi effect (like in a carb) where the rushing air passing buy pulls air with it (suction) out a side tube which must be where your vacuum hose would connect ...

someone could make one .. but for $10 andprobably $8 shipping .. it's worth it ( IF you have an air compressor that can run for 30 min with out overheating -- that's a strong system / big tank .. and 90 psi is nothing to sneeze at ) .--- this is a real half assed method of pulling vacuum ( very inefficient) .

just wanted to say that the cheaper one (link i posted)--

states the max vacuum is
28.3" of Mercury at Sea Level @ 90 Psi

which .. is not enough according to contourholic ? ..

=but they don't say if u run it higher how much more vacuum u get :

Air pressure - 75 PSI Min.,180 PSI Max.

Air consumption - 4.2 CFM @ 90PSI

4.2 cubic feet a minute sounds like a twin cylinder pump of at least 1HP or so ... I know mine is that and get's pretty damn hot after about 10 or 15 min.

if your doing it once a year i guess it could be a viable option .. BUT i would like to see them state 29.9 " Hg for whatever higher pressure ... we do enough guess work .. leaving that to chance or guess is just another variable in a world already overfull of them ...

man...dont mean any disrespect or anything but with all teh time u've spent on this and the money for the various tools and parts, couldn't u have taken your car somewhere by now that can actually fix it properly???

this has been going on for awhile...it seems from your posts alot of what u're doing is taking shots in the dark to repair it

i feel your pain, my ac went dead too...i recharged with the r134 kit plus gauge from walmart...it was cold for a few hrs but when i drove it around later to test it, i could smell the refridgerant burning and hear a squealing noise almost like when the ps pump has run dry..

so like i said, no dis intended but i'd be totally nuts by now if i'd worked on my ac as much as u have with no real results

fighting the good fight, and learning about AC and about the car as I go .. I have a garage and pay taxes so I might as well use it .. if i lived in an apartment and had nobody around with a garage it makes a lot of sense to go have it done..

and that's the whole purpose of this board so that others can resolve their issues ---

I have not seen one post yet that said anything about a precise detail that was performed by work that someone paid someone else to do ..

this is a DIY forum - not a 'have someone else do it for you' situation .. it is about individualism and personalization ...

anyway - your right, it's high time i give it up and get the damn thing cool for the summer ..

some of us really arent in the financial luxury to allow for that however ...

i hope u dont give up as easily on things of more importance ... (what could be more important than AC in yor car in the summer ?

)

Originally posted by eric1:
just wanted to say that the cheaper one (link i posted)--

states the max vacuum is
28.3" of Mercury at Sea Level @ 90 Psi

which .. is not enough according to contourholic ? ..

=but they don't say if u run it higher how much more vacuum u get :

Air pressure - 75 PSI Min.,180 PSI Max.

Air consumption - 4.2 CFM @ 90PSI

4.2 cubic feet a minute sounds like a twin cylinder pump of at least 1HP or so ... I know mine is that and get's pretty damn hot after about 10 or 15 min.

if your doing it once a year i guess it could be a viable option .. BUT i would like to see them state 29.9 " Hg for whatever higher pressure ... we do enough guess work .. leaving that to chance or guess is just another variable in a world already overfull of them ...

If you have A/C Gauge set, you can pull the vacuum in stages. Run the compressor (for the air powered VP) for 10 minutes. Close valves, rerst the air compressor, the run again. Will take longer, but it sounds as if you have some time and a place to mess around.

well , i broke my own rules and went to pby -- because it was available and i fealt like it was someone i could trust..

well they found a faulty schraeder valve .. which i found the high pres. side one to be leaking pressure when i popped the hood after leaving the parking lot ...

i cant explain it .. . it wasnt doing it before but then again i never pressurized the system like they did...

well.. we'll see iuf i the replacement of that will do anything

Thanks for the info, really appreciate it. Anyway, took the car to dealer and they told me they have put in a dye to detect a leak. they will check next time I take her for a oil change. they also added some coolant, so its cool now but I still hear the clicking sound which I was told by a friend - could the gear of the system. SHOULD I TAKE HER BACK TO THEM?

Have paid for coolant and oil change $130 including taxes, now if I take her back, they will charge the deductible $100.

should I wait or complain?

Thanks for all the help.
---------------------------------
u mean they added some refrigerant ( R134a ) or they added some coolant (antifreeze - ethyline glycol) ?

the clickisg sound ofd the compressor coming on and off with a low charge in the system ( 1 12 oz can or less ) as i hear the r134a capacity is 28 oz.

you could buy the $25 kit at walmart to add more r134a .. but u may have a leak ( the UV dye ) needs to be added and visually checked over ..
they also use a pressure test (air ) - this im familiar with at pepboys ...
the test at pepboys for ac diagnostic which may have 20 items they test is about $26 bucks !

there are a lot of opctions .. and it seems the ford dealer is gonna keep asking u to bend over so they can insert the vaseline while they bang u for that $100 deductable as many times as they can get it ? u always hear ' we have to make money somehow' and a 'business doesnt stay in business by giving away free service or goods' - its true .. maybe one time to keep you coming back but they wont continue spending time on you without something in return ...

SO i have 24 oz of r134a IN THE SYSTEM with 28 oz capacity and i hear some people say ' u can overcharge it ' and others say ' u cant over charge it '

QUESTION #1)

should i stick another 12 oz can in the system or leave it with just the 2 cans in there ?
-------------------------------
its blowing cold so i m happy now ..

but , i think i need to add 2 oz of oil .

QUESTION #2)

Can I add it by sticking the refrigerant oil can ( now without its own pressure) upside down in the low side port with ac on max and just have it 'suck in' ?
or do u have to have pressure in a can when u add it to the low side port ?

Eric, thanks for your respons. Anyhow, there is another twist to this saga. I took her back to Ford for change of brakes and asked them to check if there was a leak- because they had injected some dye a few days ago. on last visit, they had verified the ac system, added refrigerant and put in some dye.

I complained today that the noise with AC is still there.
Have been told that although there is no leak, there are other problems with AC. Will be covered by warantee but will have to pay $100 deductible.
Have been told that there is problem with clutch, pulley etc.

AM REALLY PUZZLED, HOW COULD IT BE? SHOULD I ASK THEM TO CHECK THE HEATER BLOWER MOTOR, AS THIS SEEMS TO BE A COMMON PROBLEM WITH OUR CARS.

Your help, advice and input is appreciated. Many thanks