We have had our 98 Contour GL into the dealer on 5 occasions,
and each time gotten a different assessmant and different codes for repairs.
All totaled we spent $1812.00 for a total of 6 different codes.
We had 1380 twice, and 1464, 82, 13 and 2081 once each. We
are now looking at replacing the
variable cam timing solenoid and sensor. They only want $1300.00 to do this,
and only guarantee it will tell us if we need a new transmission.
The car runs perfectly since I replaced the thermostat and coolant,
had the tranny filter and fluid changed,
but it won't pass smog in CA because the CEL won't turn off.
The emissions are perfect, in the middle where it should be.
Can I treat it like a wisdom tooth and just yank it? Can I wire around it to fool
the smog machines? Or should I just run it off Land's End at 3500rpms?
Car has 4-cyl,2.0 Lt, EFI, DOHC. Service Manager says VCT Solenoid
should only be on 6 and 8 cyls. ??????? Any thoughts?
What CEL are you currently receiving?
I hate to say this, but something sounds fishy...
I say this because you state that you have received a P1380 twice, and that seems to be the exact same part that they are talking about replacing.
P1380=VCT (Variable Cam Timing) Solenoid Valve circuit Short or Open
The following is from a document titled "1999 MY OBD-II System Operation Summary for Gasoline Engines":
Camshaft Position Control (also known as Variable Cam Timing) is a system which is able to advance and retard camshaft timing relative to the crankshaft. This phasing is controlled by a duty-cycled output. The output driver is checked electrically for opens and shorts (P1380, P1385). The system is checked functionally by monitoring the closed loop phase control correction. If the proper phasing cannot be maintained and the system has an advance or retard error greater than the malfunction threshold, a CPC control malfunction is indicated (P1381 P1383, P1386 P1388).
Also, a P1464 might have been caused by a mistake on their part when they ran a test on your car. This CEL seems to indicate that the A/C or defrost was on when they ran a test.
And I don't even see P2081 listed anywhere!
Also, what are 82 and 13? All CEL codes should be four digits. See
http://www.contour.org/FAQ/FAQ.php?s=probs&display=checkengine for more info.
Originally posted by GeoPappas:
All CEL codes should be four digits.
Actually OBD-II CEL codes should be 3 or 4 digits. 0-800 are general and 801 & above are model specific.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Actually OBD-II CEL codes should be 3 or 4 digits. 0-800 are general and 801 & above are model specific.
See <
http://www.obdii.com/dtcanatomy.html>.
i dunno how the emissions tests are done, if they just look to see if teh lights on, remove the bulb from the instrument cluster.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by GeoPappas:
All CEL codes should be four digits.
Actually OBD-II CEL codes should be 3 or 4 digits. 0-800 are general and 801 & above are model specific.
I understand that CEL codes can be less than 800, but they still would be formatted like P0XXX.
What I was trying to say, was that "82" and "13" don't follow the standard formatting for CEL codes (i.e., PXXXX). And if you put them into standard formatting for CEL codes (e.g., P0082 and P0013), they don't show up on the CEL list.
So I was wondering what threedub was trying to allude to.
Is it possible that removing the negative battery cable will reset the CEL long enough to get it through the smog test?
in my opinion i think u should take your car to autozone and get them to double check your current codes and come back here with the info....and i dont think removing the bulb from the cel light would work....part of the test i believe it to check that the light is functional...if the key is turned and the light doesn't come on at all u may be failed on for that reason
find a good shop in the area that u can take your car to and avoid the ridiculous charges for repairs
as far as resetting the cel...i dont know how long it takes your car to throw the cel after startup but when i had one it would come on soon as the engine was warm....if yours is the same it wouldn't do much good maybe to try resetting before the test
Originally posted by threedub:
Is it possible that removing the negative battery cable will reset the CEL long enough to get it through the smog test?
In California, probably not. If you have an OBD-II vehicle, they'll probably plug in to the PCM to see whether the "periodic" tests, such as catalyst efficiency, have been completed. If you reset the PCM (e.g., by disconnecting the battery) just before submitting your vehicle for an emissions inspection, the test facility probably wouldn't permit it to pass. It certainly wouldn't pass if the CEL has been unplugged or otherwise disabled.
Here's what
the CA Web site says:
Originally posted by The State of California:
What are the elements of a Smog Check?
In order for your vehicle to receive a Smog Check certificate, it must pass all the following elements:
- A visual inspection, in which all required emissions control components and systems are identified, and must appear connected and functional.
- A functional inspection, which includes checking the operation of the emissions control warning indicators, ("Check Engine" light), the ignition timing, the gas cap, and the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system (if the vehicle is so equipped and a Two-Speed Idle (TSI) test is being performed). A functional check of a vehicle’s On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) system is also performed on 1996 and newer vehicles. Diagnostic information stored in the vehicle’s computer is reported on the Vehicle Inspection Report (VIR) that the motorist receives at the end of the Smog Check inspection. OBD information can save time and money when repairs are required.
- A tailpipe emissions test, which measures exhaust emissions using a probe inserted into the vehicle’s tailpipe during testing. Vehicles pass or fail this part of the Smog Check inspection based on established emission standards, sometimes called cutpoints.
Isn't bulb removal a pretty drawn out ordeal? I can fix a lot on a car but the reason I quit working on them in 1980 was all the computer oriented gobblety-gook.
I'm wondering if the dealer just split the 1380 code to make it appear even worse than the 1300 he wants to fiw it.
Does that price seem a bit expensive? Isn't there some room for adjustment before replacement?
Is your CEL light still no? If so, get it read for FREE at Autozone. If you don't have an Autozone, then get it read somewhere else, but make sure that you are standing there when they do it and show you the code. Otherwise, you will have to just take their word for it (and we know how that can go).
Once you get the CEL read, then post it here.
If CA is like VA, then you should have a little while to get the car fixed for the emissions inspection. I believe that here in VA they will give you up to 30 days or so before you will be officially driving illegally.
As far as trying to bypass the CEL, I don't think that it will work.
This being California, nothing is free. Even free advice is $34.99 now.
No way to wire it open or just wiggle the wires back together? The wife
loves the car, but I want to sell it to the first Mercedes that runs a red light.
I unhooked the -battery term and waited 10 minutes.
Light came back on in 7 miles. I found a disconnected
vacuum hose next to battery. Hooks up to canister on
front of engine, driver's side. Long enough to reach to
battery hold-down bolt. Looked everywhere for a connection.
Also a disconnected ground strap? clipped to hood hinge.
Any thoughts on these two items? Is vac hose a possible
cause for VCT malfunction CEL? Or ground strap?
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.......3dub
threedub: What is the CEL that you are currently receiving?
Don't believe all the codes you receive are genuine. You could have a computer malfunction or the 'technicians' providing the info do not know what they are doing. If your engine does not have the part the code is complaining about then the OBD system is suspect. The problems with CELs (MIL instances)on the Contour seem to be extremely frequent. I think you need to get independent advice from more than one shop to make any kind of rational judgement.
After you get it fixed sell it and buy a vehicle that is old enough not to require emissions testing if that is an option in your area or at least one that that is not prevented from operation legally by some stupid light.
The amount of money that Ford wants to pump into keeping relatively new Contours alive could more than keep an older classier vehicle than the Contour in near new condition with a much lower purchase price. I have had numerous CELs over the last 2 years and remedying one only seems to get the car ready for the next one. Emissions wise the Contour is so fragile that I suspect the CEL limits for many of the trivial problems are set very sensitive. I have commented on the cat design (pretty poor) and engine management features before. In my opinion the Contour like many Fords before it has not proven to be very robust. The programming from my point of view is suspect
BTW the vacuum line near the battery is likely a breather tube.
I personally don't know if the Variable Cam timing is supposed to be on our engine or not. We were told by the Ford Service Advisor at S&C Ford in San Francisco that it was usually found on 6 & 8 cylinder engines. This car began its life in Hawaii. It is now in California and we can't get any straight answers from anyone, other than it will be "about $1300." That is too much to pay to find out if we need a transmission, which is all the ser. man. is willing to commit to. The transmission is working great even on the hills in SF. I am making an appointment with the smog referee to have them look. The law says you have to spend $450.0 before you have a right to see them. Round and round and round we go until we've wasted all our dough, It won't be long.....
Originally posted by threedub:
I personally don't know if the Variable Cam timing is supposed to be on our engine or not. We were told by the Ford Service Advisor at S&C Ford in San Francisco that it was usually found on 6 & 8 cylinder engines. This car began its life in Hawaii. It is now in California and we can't get any straight answers from anyone, other than it will be "about $1300." That is too much to pay to find out if we need a transmission, which is all the ser. man. is willing to commit to. The transmission is working great even on the hills in SF. I am making an appointment with the smog referee to have them look. The law says you have to spend $450.0 before you have a right to see them. Round and round and round we go until we've wasted all our dough, It won't be long.....
I don't see why they are trying to sell you a new transmission, or what a thermostat, transmission fill had to do with it. The fact that they even sold you a tranny filter change is highly suspect, as the automatics aren't really a service item.
Late-model Zetecs DO have VCT on the exhaust cam for emissions reasons only. This allows Ford to eliminate the PCV valve, thereby avoiding the costly replacement (free for you) at 60k miles.
Your best bet is to get these codes pulled somewhere neutral, either AutoZone or an independent shop and post them here. Your dealer sounds like a scam unfortunately.
FORD told you that VCT isn't normally on 4cyl!?!?!? they made the engine, it's on all 98+ zetecs (your engine). Ford is crazy, take it somewhere else, that vac line could easily be causing your trouble, find where it goes (i have no idea). The only engines I know any type of VCT to be on is 98+ zetecs, honda's vtecs, nissan's newer 4cyls,etc. I know of no 6 or 8 cyl (not saying they don't exist) that has any type of VCT. First thing, stop goind to Ford, they're just gonna rip you off, find a good mechanic, and find where that hose goes.
Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
I know of no 6 or 8 cyl (not saying they don't exist) that has any type of VCT. First thing, stop goind to Ford, they're just gonna rip you off, find a good mechanic, and find where that hose goes.
Just FYI, VCT is everywhere especially on high-end cars. BMW has VANOS found in all their late-model engines (all I6s and V8s). Porsche has Variocam on its boxer-6s. Jaguar also uses variable cam timing for performance. Etc etc etc...
that's why i didn't know it ws on bigger engines, too many funny names, also expensive names.
Trying to find the hose connection, this happened. When sucking on the hose, air can be heard bubbling through some liquid, sounds like it is just past the end of the tranny. When blowing on the hose, liquid (looks like red tranny fluid) comes out the side of the engine/tranny close to the firewall. Being 6'2" I find it very difficult to get curved aroud enough to find the leak. The hose itself is factory clamped onto a cowling that seems to be bolted to the front (of car) top side of tranny. The tranny is operating fine, but the Ford dealer sold us a fluid change weeks back, took this hose and tucked it behind the battery, so it looked like it belonged there. Do you think this has anything to do with the CEL being on? I am waiting for a vacuum meter to arrive to see how much is being exerted through this hose. I am still confused about the small ground strap, clipped to the hood hinge, bolted to the inside of the firewall, and flapping on the other end. It is about 14" long, and seems to go nowhere. The bolts it could reach(inside engine compartment) do not seem to have been removed> Thank you one and all for your responses......3DUB
doubt that has anything to do with the CEL, that hose sounds like the ATX vent, it's supposed to be open.
My V6 ATX has the same tube. As per my previous post it is the breather tune for the transmission. Leave it alone. It is not related to CEL. There have been other posts on this item before.
Also find another dealer. If you don't trust the doctor get a second opinion or even a third.