Spun Bearing... - CEG Archives

Accu-sump buys you more time in a hard turn before you run out of oil. If you stay in it long enough, even it may not be enough.

It may also help to install better rod bearings. Clevite 77 seems to be the higher grade bearing of choice. Main bearings are not a problem.

I'm an agressive driver, but with a bit of common sense, I have avoided the problem without any modifications. I avoid hard acceleration or high revs on sweeping right hand turns (freeway on ramps) and use 6 quarts when I change oil. I have 205,000 miles on it and it still runs strong.

I think this problem is very over-played for street driving. Remember, some of the people on here race these Contours on tracks...and on streets. A few failures at low mileage does not mean they all will. This isn't like the SHO cam sprockets because those happen regardless of how you drive it. You crank the motor up, and it's already a ticking time bomb. Yes, the oiling system is flawed, but for a normal street driver, it's must easier to avoid.

Plus, a 2.5 Duratec is a lot cheaper to replace (Or upgrade to a 3.0) than it is to replace one of those 3.4 V-8 SHO motors.

Originally posted by Majisto:
I think this problem is very over-played for street driving. Remember, some of the people on here race these Contours on tracks...and on streets. A few failures at low mileage does not mean they all will. This isn't like the SHO cam sprockets because those happen regardless of how you drive it. You crank the motor up, and it's already a ticking time bomb. Yes, the oiling system is flawed, but for a normal street driver, it's must easier to avoid.

Plus, a 2.5 Duratec is a lot cheaper to replace (Or upgrade to a 3.0) than it is to replace one of those 3.4 V-8 SHO motors.

Still can't believe they had a 3.4 v8

Originally posted by Big Jim:
Accu-sump buys you more time in a hard turn before you run out of oil. If you stay in it long enough, even it may not be enough.

It may also help to install better rod bearings. Clevite 77 seems to be the higher grade bearing of choice. Main bearings are not a problem.

I'm an agressive driver, but with a bit of common sense, I have avoided the problem without any modifications. I avoid hard acceleration or high revs on sweeping right hand turns (freeway on ramps) and use 6 quarts when I change oil. I have 205,000 miles on it and it still runs strong.

I've started to make sure that my oil is 2-4cm's above the fill dot as people have said ...

Either way, I'm still going to move my battery to the trunk and try and get a 2qt accusump in there ... 2qt's should be a lot extra. Maybe a DMD too just in case.

Originally posted by Majisto:
I think this problem is very over-played for street driving. Remember, some of the people on here race these Contours on tracks...and on streets. A few failures at low mileage does not mean they all will. This isn't like the SHO cam sprockets because those happen regardless of how you drive it. You crank the motor up, and it's already a ticking time bomb. Yes, the oiling system is flawed, but for a normal street driver, it's must easier to avoid.

Plus, a 2.5 Duratec is a lot cheaper to replace (Or upgrade to a 3.0) than it is to replace one of those 3.4 V-8 SHO motors.

This problem, as "overplayed" as you think it is, has happened to countless numbers of "street-driven" vehicles. Not tracked, or raced. driven. period. Ask around, if you truly are curious as to how many have failed.. and how many of those were actually "raced"... Greg's failed on a cloverleaf onramp to a freeway at about 3500rpms..

This isn't a problem that can be attributed to "prolonged failure" etc.. this is a one-time, instant action type thing. So the fact that Greg is an admittedly more aggresive driver than the normal person has absolutely no play in this at all. The car simply failed to perform as it should reliably do so... on the street, in normal driving conditions.

Yours would too if you give it long enough.. (and don't use common sense)

Ray

Originally posted by Ray:
This problem, as "overplayed" as you think it is, has happened to countless numbers of "street-driven" vehicles. Not tracked, or raced. driven. period. Ask around, if you truly are curious as to how many have failed.. and how many of those were actually "raced"...

Mine for example. Mine never saw a track and I baby my car and only get it up to high RPMs on occasion.

Died at 93k.

Originally posted by Ray:
(and don't use common sense)

I"m sure we've all driven here with common sense.

A lot of us with SVT's bought it for the handling, it's a very, very large error if it can't take a sustained right hand turn at high rpms.

Honestly, this is the first car I've heard that does implodes from oil starvation on a right turn when the oil is within its min-max.

Originally posted by Ray:

Originally posted by Majisto:
I think this problem is very over-played for street driving. Remember, some of the people on here race these Contours on tracks...and on streets. A few failures at low mileage does not mean they all will. This isn't like the SHO cam sprockets because those happen regardless of how you drive it. You crank the motor up, and it's already a ticking time bomb. Yes, the oiling system is flawed, but for a normal street driver, it's must easier to avoid.

Plus, a 2.5 Duratec is a lot cheaper to replace (Or upgrade to a 3.0) than it is to replace one of those 3.4 V-8 SHO motors.

This problem, as "overplayed" as you think it is, has happened to countless numbers of "street-driven" vehicles. Not tracked, or raced. driven. period. Ask around, if you truly are curious as to how many have failed.. and how many of those were actually "raced"... Greg's failed on a cloverleaf onramp to a freeway at about 3500rpms..

This isn't a problem that can be attributed to "prolonged failure" etc.. this is a one-time, instant action type thing. So the fact that Greg is an admittedly more aggresive driver than the normal person has absolutely no play in this at all. The car simply failed to perform as it should reliably do so... on the street, in normal driving conditions.

Yours would too if you give it long enough.. (and don't use common sense)

Ray

Fact: All motors wear. Motors wear faster without oil. If you drive hard, you starve the motor of oil more often. Unless I am very mistaken, the Dureatec can be starved of oil for a very short period and still recover just fine. It will have a LOT more wear on it than would normally take on, but it'll still run.

Here's a solution, is it possible to install an oil PRESSURE gauge to watch for oil starvation?

even a MINUTE drop for a SECOND in oil pressure to the galley and you will cause irreversable damage (read: spun bearing..)

the duratec (any engine??)cannot have a drop in oil pressure, for even a minute, while at any type of higher rev without causing SERIOUS damage.

An oil pressure guage would allow you to watch your pressure drop, so you would KNOW you did damage.. lol the spike, and speed that the pressure drops is MUCH too fast to do anything about. an accusump, extra oil, and safe driving habits will help the most.. a pressure guage will be an added benefit.

Ray

I'm still not convinced that it's a simple "turn right and oil starvation occurs" problem. I'd be more inclined to believe that it's a materials problem, maybe similar to the Zircon contamination in late-year 3.0L Duratecs. Terry Haines made the point that if it was a design flaw in the oiling system, there'd be lots more cases of Contours losing their engines. A flawed run of rod bearings that made it to an assembly line or two, perhaps COUPLED to an oil pressure issue, would make more sense IMO, and it'd be really damn hard to track down the bad parts, especially given the theorizing over why the 2.5Ls spin 'em. Remember crank walk, anyone?

Originally posted by Ray:
Keep in mind that NONE of these methods are considered fail-safes. Also remember that NONE of the methods are able to do the job on their own. It would take the combination of two or more of these suggestions, and even then it is still not impossible.
This is simply a flaw in the design of the heads, and can't be completely avoided. Only driving style combined with 2 or even all 3 of these methods will prove fruitful.
oil accumulator... accusump/moroso brand
revs lowered on sweeping righthand turns. (remember that this is not a magic number.. length of time in the turn, and G forces while turning will affect the "limit" of the revs you can reach. a steady, easy right hander may very well be fine at 3500, or 4000.. but add more G's to that and now that 3500 should be lowered to 1500 or 1800.. all dynamic..
Running 6.5 (or so.. some run 6.. others run as much as 7.. research to find your level) of oil.. 5W-30
Ray

Ray where are you getting this info from?

Bondurants fleet of SVT Contours were likely run harder than any street/track driven personally owned car and didn't need both to avoid failures. Their last batch had over 10k of track miles each. One had an AccuSump while the others had the heads modified to the newer setup and larger oil pans. None of these have spun a bearing.

What specifically are you basing a reduction from 3500 to 15000-1800 being correct?
Why not 2500?

I really do feel that there is much too much unfounded theory continually swirling around about this problem being presented as fact. This unfortunately, only continues to cloud the issue. New Escape 3L's are spinning bearings and they have the new head design and larger oil pans.

I've never seen any evidence that most of these problems were caused by high G-load right-hand turns. On the contrary, my Mystique and SVT have by my best estimate completed between 1,800 and 2,100 laps that include amoung the tracks 11 turns a high G-load prolonged right hand turn, turn 9, without failure. I enter turn 9 by down-shifting from 4th gear to 3rd gear and hold near-full throttle through the 180 degree turn. The G-loads with 225/50/15 Toyo RA-1's when combined with GC'd Konis, etc., are much higher than any street tire could ever develop. My only insurance is running Mobil 1 5w-30 �?½ quart over spec.

Originally posted by ODC:
Honestly, this is the first car I've heard that does implodes from oil starvation on a right turn when the oil is within its min-max.

ODC, there are other cars that have this problem to lesser degrees. BMW E36 M3's have a reputation for this and like the SVT the "common wisdom" cure is to run �?½ qt over spec.

Again, I'm not completely convinced this is the problem. That doesn't mean I know what the problem is but proper diagnostic procedures need to be followed to arrive at any any legitimate conclusions.

Regards, Alan

Originally posted by Alan Coles:
ODC, there are other cars that have this problem to lesser degrees. BMW E36 M3's have a reputation for this and like the SVT the "common wisdom" cure is to run �?½ qt over spec.

Again, I'm not completely convinced this is the problem. That doesn't mean I know what the problem is but proper diagnostic procedures need to be followed to arrive at any any legitimate conclusions.

Regards, Alan

The M3's engine is more of a specialized unit than the tweaked Duratec here though right ? I don't think the US spec E36 M3 engine has anything to do with the 330/328 ?

Somebody mentioned the keyword ... crankwalk -- this reminds me of crankwalk so much. It happens randomly, erratically, nobody can diagnose it, recognized (unofficially) by the manuf. through parts changes, nobody knows the cure (except to buy 1990 dsm's with the 5bolt).

In two or three years, I can see myself selling the car, I can only imagine how cheap I'd have to let it go for if the engine detonated and became a rebuilt title. I guess its extra oil, accusump and DMD and to try and not tempt fate too much.

I wonder if the Jag X-Type 2.5Ls are having the same spun bearing problems.

Originally posted by Alan Coles:
Ray where are you getting this info from?

Bondurants fleet of SVT Contours were likely run harder than any street/track driven car... One had an AccuSump while the others had the heads modified to the newer setup and larger oil pans.

Okay! GREAT! Chalk one more up to not failing... Because "they" didn't have more than one of the well-known "fixes" (if you can call them that? lol) and they didn't fail, then that must mean that our "problem" has nothing to do with driving, then.. huh? To base that result on THIS set of cars is as theorhetical as any of the clouding going on on CEG. Just because they didn't fail doesn't mean they COULDN'T fail. I still fall back to the fact that NONE of the methods are failsafes. (hell even ALL of them aren't a fail-safe).. they were running ONE method.. and I am glad they didn't fail.

Originally posted by Alan:
What specifically are you basing a reduction from 3500 to 15000-1800 being correct?
Why not 2500?

Sorry for any misunderstanding. I thought that I had brought the point across hard enough that it is entirely dynamic. The number that I stated was entirely arbitrary, and only used to show a gesture of a lower rpm.

Originally posted by Alan:
I really do feel that there is much too much unfounded theory continually swirling around about this problem being presented as fact. This unfortunately, only continues to cloud the issue. New Escape 3L's are spinning bearings and they have the new head design and larger oil pans.

Are they also running an Accusump?

j/k on this one..

Originally posted by Alan:
I've never seen any evidence that most of these problems were caused by high G-load right-hand turns.

You've never seen any evidence? what does that mean, exactly? You mean that you've PERSONALLY never had a cdw fail under those conditions? or that you've never even heard of that happening? I can throw out at least two, not including my own 95LX. Ask Greg (DemonSVT) about his, as well. What about (forgive me if I get your name wrong) CSVT1999... his just did the same thing, under the same conditions. I've PERSONALLY experienced this, and if this is some "unknown" thing that we can't diagnose, then I can tell you something: I have found a secondary way of making "whatever this is" come up... take high g-load right turn.. maybe that isn't causing it, but something at the same time HAPPENS to make you have a drop in oil pressure, too. If the problem is some mysteriously clouded event, then I can understand why. I always see the turning cause failures. (maybe that's what the problem WANTS us to think... heehee..)

Originally posted by Alan:
That doesn't mean I know what the problem is

neither do I, FOR SURE..

Originally posted by Alan:
but proper diagnostic procedures need to be followed to arrive at any any legitimate conclusions.

I agree.. I donated one car already to "the cause".. care to join me?

Ray

See sig.

I believe it was the 99 South to I-5 North ramp in Sacramento for me. Started knocking bad bad bad within a mile or two after that. Car was donated.

Circumstances:

Was I going fast? For an on ramp.....Yes.
(I like to be going the speed of traffic when I merge.)

Was I close to red line? Yes.
(2nd and 3rd gears were fun.)

How long had the car been running? About 30mins. Normal temp.

Was the oil full? Yes, at the top line of full like always.

Was the oil new? Yes, had changed it a couple of weeks before.

What oil were you using? Pennzoil 10w-30.
(Don't need an oil lecture. I've switched to Mobile 1 on my cars, and I prolly should have been using 5w-30, but I usually switch to a heavier weight when engines get into higher miles. Ask 10 people, you'll get 10 different answers.)

What oil filter where you using? Fram Tough or Double Gaurd. Don't remember....
(Don't need a Fram lecture. Try not to use them anymore either.)

Am I hard on cars? Yes. Very.

^^ Is it a possibility that the oil filter is having problems streaming the oil at a consistent rate ? I know some filters do a better job at filtering, but that comes at a cost of decreased flow.

Greg, what were you running? I was running a fram when:

flying though some twisites, settled into a long, hard increasing right-hander and hit redline in second entering the turn, and was near redline in third exiting (yes, it is the most fun corner EVER), then a bang and a stall, car starts making bad noises... we find out we spun a bearing after it dies a couple days later.

It was in the middle of the acceptable range, but the oil hadn't been changed in a looong time... not my fault.

This is the main reason that I, and Demon, recommend Mobil 1 filters.. (among others, as well) because they are rated at a higher capacity than our pumps. I know that a mobil 1 can't be exceeded with a stock oilpump... So, for that matter, no.. the oil filter I am using won't have problems.

However, I don't know the actual ratings for the fram or toughgard or whatever they were using.

Ray

Thanks for all your help and insight guys. Basically i think im swaping to a 3L as soon as its possible.