DURING 60K Service... Engine BLOWN?! Help Please!

How many miles on ferret II?

they owe YOU a new engine, doesn't matter what happened, if it worked going in, they worked on it, and it no longer works, it's THEIR responsibility to restore it to original working condition. . .end of story, and don't listen to their bs about 3 loud thunks and boom. . .sounds like they drained the oil, forgot to refill it, and heard piston slap from no lubrication in the engine. . .

Originally posted by ssmumich00:
they owe YOU a new engine, doesn't matter what happened, if it worked going in, they worked on it, and it no longer works, it's THEIR responsibility to restore it to original working condition. . .end of story,

This isn't true and only adds fuel to an already potentially explosive situation.

Not enough is known at this point to establish responsibility.

Originally posted by spgoode:
How many miles on ferret II?

Hi. Just turned 60K, and running like a top when brought in for maintenance service. The only problems I've ever had were two exterior water leaks. We replaced Banks 1 & 2 oxygen sensors this past year (had an intermittent CEL and codes indicated this was needed, as did my gas mileage, though car ran fine). For preventive purposes we replaced the waterpump (and thermostat while we were at it) at a little over 50K. We'd even fixed the coolant temperature temperature light so it didn't come on anymore... *sigh*... was really happy about that one.

Originally posted by ssmumich00:
they owe YOU a new engine, doesn't matter what happened, if it worked going in, they worked on it, and it no longer works, it's THEIR responsibility to restore it to original working condition. . .end of story, and don't listen to their bs about 3 loud thunks and boom. . .sounds like they drained the oil, forgot to refill it, and heard piston slap from no lubrication in the engine. . .

Hi. As much as I wanted to say, "It has to be you who caused this!" I tried to not be accusatory when I got the news, a part of me thinking it was too early to go there. I really try (though sometimes I forget) to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. As Jim suggests, I think waiting for more info is a good approach. Also, if the engine was run sans oil or coolant, or the car otherwise damaged, there should be telltale evidence to that effect.

Back over on the old-fashioned Contour listserve (which I still love though this site is great, too!) we've been discussing the possibility of air in the clutch being the culprit. That is, say, if they clutch didn't get bled right during the break/clutch flush/refill (they share the same fluid reservoir) and had air in it and wouldn't engage, and the car was started while in first gear (or between gears somehow), it might amount to starting it in gear with the clutch out, which could make some pretty colorful noises.

I'm hoping this is what happened. I wouldn't be thrilled by this scenario (well, maybe in a sense I would be!) though it would be better than having a badly damaged engine. If this were the case and they started it in neutral with the clutch in, it should turn over fine. But if what the service manager said is true, they turned it over once, heard really bad noises, and then tried to get more info about the engine and, it being New Year's Eve, hit a deadend until Monday.

Just came back from a New Year's gathering with extended family. My cousin is a very competent corporate business attorney, and a very down-to-earth, loving person. We agreed giving the shop the benefit of the doubt while they sort this out is probably the best approach (though she is willing to make a call if it comes to that). She told me a story about her maintenance shop. They'd changed her oil; 2300 miles down the road the oil drained out while driving and the engine was wrecked; turned out the filter had come off. She called the shop and told them politely what had happened. They offered to go find the filter to try to figure out why it had come off, telling her that if it had not put on properly they thought it would have fallen off ealier, but perhaps it was a bad filter or something else was wrong. She found the filter herself, and the shop looked up the serial number on it and took responsibility immediately for replacing the engine. Turned out someone there had put on the wrong filter. She ended up with a used engine with 12,000 miles on it (versus 160K) and the shop she went to for the new engine also replaced the clutch for the cost of parts ($130). It took a few days to do the job and the car has run great for quite sometime. She had never told her maintenance shop that she was an attorney, by the way, and she continues to go there.

We'll probably head down to the shop Monday morning with Janos' big shop manual and my Chiltons and Haynes in tow, to take a look at the engine and discuss the situation in a non-confrontational way. I may ask to sit in the car and feel the brake and clutch (though won't touch the starter with a ten foot pole!). They've always let me go back to see my car and talk to the mechanic when I've asked or had questions during previous service. Hopefully it will all have a happy ending... I'll keep you posted!

Thanks! Lynn

[Apparently the mechanic (who the manager says has 20 years experience and is a "master mechanic") ]

I think they meant this master mechanic is 20 years old

I dont know US law, but in Ireland if my engine died while in the custody of someone responsible for repairing and servicing, I would most certaintly be getting a lawyer involved if the garage was not willing to replace/repair the motor, especially because you know what condition your engine was in when you left it into them. Whoever caused the damage will say anything to save their skin.

The car has low miles and is pampered. The car was running great. My timing chains were replaced at 58k miles because they were loose for a while and in danger of damage. They made an awful rattling noise, and still did not snap!

See what the garage intend to do to return the car to its condition when you left it into them. Unless you signed a disclaimer stating that the garage accept no responsibility of damage, I think they have no choice but to replace your engine.
Good luck with getting your baby back in order

Originally posted by Ferret II:

Originally posted by spgoode:
How many miles on ferret II?

Hi. Just turned 60K

Oh yeah, 60k service.

I hope you get a new engine out of it and reimbursement for a rental car. Good luck!

Originally posted by Ronan:
I dont know US law, but in Ireland if my engine died while in the custody of someone responsible for repairing and servicing, I would most certaintly be getting a lawyer involved if the garage was not willing to replace/repair the motor... *snip* ...My timing chains were replaced at 58k miles because they were loose for a while and in danger of damage. They made an awful rattling noise, and still did not snap!... *snip* ...Unless you signed a disclaimer stating that the garage accept no responsibility of damage, I think they have no choice but to replace your engine.
Good luck with getting your baby back in order

Thanks Ronan! A reply all the way from Ireland. Boy the internet is cool...

I didn't sign anything and clearly (from your story - thanks! - and those of others) apparently the timing chains rarely, if ever, bust out of the blue on these Duratec engines ... so I've got my heart sort of hung on it being an issue with the clutch not disengaging due to air in the system, resulting in no or much less damage than a "dead engine". I am surely fond of Ferret II!

I'll send an update tomorrow. Hopefully I won't have to go down any nasty roads, but, if so... I could probably make a living myself helping wronged consumers' get their money back - an arena in which being a bit obsessive and detail-oriented can actually help for once! Thanks again.

Lynn

Quote:

I'm assuming you have a V-6 because the 4 cylinder is a NON-interference engine. No such damage should happen on the 4 banger.

I thought that the V6 was the NON-interference engine and the 4cyl was the interference type.

No, its exactly the opposite. That's why the Zetec has a timing belt and the Duratec has a timing chain. If everytime a belt slipped or broke on a Zetec you'd have a lot of pissed off people on these boards.

Originally posted by weasel:

Quote:

I'm assuming you have a V-6 because the 4 cylinder is a NON-interference engine. No such damage should happen on the 4 banger.

I thought that the V6 was the NON-interference engine and the 4cyl was the interference type.

Hi. I think all Contour SE models (by definition) have the V6 Duratec, an interference engine.

All early SEs.

Crap, I was wrong. Don't tell my wife

Originally posted by Ferret II:
so I've got my heart sort of hung on it being an issue with the clutch not disengaging due to air in the system, resulting in no or much less damage than a "dead engine". I am surely fond of Ferret II!

This seems strange to me though. Even if the clutch was not fully disengaged, what would cause the engine to "die." With the clutch engaged, it means the power would go to the wheels, and the car would jerk. There was no mention of a jerking action by the mechanic.

It would be one thing if something was wrong with the transmission, but I don't see how the clutch would cause the engine to die.

Ofcourse there are those far more knowledgable than me on this site. Maybe someone could explain it to me.

Hi! GOOD NEWS! My engine is only flooded!!! What a relief!! But, can anyone believe this? Being told it my engine was probably destroyed because at startup it had made three huge thuds like hitting a fender with a fist and sounded like it was running backward... that they wouldn't dare start it again and needed to consult Ford? How do you flood an engine anyway, when doing a flush/replace of brake, power steering, and transmission fluids? The service manager said he didn't bleed the brake or clutch after flushing them with the machine, so he could't have been stomping on the throttle (instead of the brake)...

What a fiasco!!!! Fortunately the shop manager was in today, and my husband and I went down to talk with him, after getting inconsistent info this morning. Our whole approach was we wanted to help resolve things, not blame anyone for anything; during some slightly tense exchanges reminding that this was our intention helped move things forward positively.

After much conversation, the shop manager finally checked to make sure the clutch was engaging (it was), so we didn't have air in the clutch system system. The service manager had refused to rule this out, saying that they had heard a timing chain rattle and they "were way beyond this issue".

Then they reached a Ford service manager by phone, who said neither timing chains nor tensioner arms break out of the blue on these cars (he'd never seen it though there's always a first time...) AND that any damage that would have been done was done if the valves/pistons had collided at start-up. Finally, based on the info from Ford (and Janos and I) the shop manager decided to start the car. Janos tried to get him to turn it over with a breaker bar by hand, to be on the safe side, but he wanted to start it.

It was simply flooded! Took awhile to start, but started, and ran a little rough. The shop manager and Janos said that was because the plugs are saturated with fuel, and that he will replace the plugs at no charge. I asked, "how could it be flooded based on what was done?". He said he had no idea, but is going to check things over carefully.

The minute the car started he said he's firing the service manager for putting us (and him) through all this for no reason. Among others, a whoppingly weird and wrong statement the service manager made (in front of the shop manager) was that the 60K service included examining the timing chain, that it was only a matter of removing a couple covers and that's what the $180 charge for 60K service was all about! We asked why wouldn't he do this now then (all the time knowing that it was a HUGE job to get to the chain) since he suspected a broken chain or tensioner. He replied because now there were liability issues, and he had to get information from Ford before proceeding.

The manager said he would now handle the job himself. I think the clutch feels funny as it rises, little play at the top and a little hitch. I thought the brake felt a little hard. We'll see how it drives. I'm also still nervous that they're saying some racket came from the engine. What happened to Ferret II at that shop?! I think the shop manager will have it looked over carefully, as he was quite appalled by the situation. At one point, though, the shop manager did say he thought the problem was that the tensioner had gone when oil pressure fell, and he related it to my husband's having changed the oil. Fortunately, Janos kept his cool... but he was pissed. I have liked working with the manager, but I was disappointed he would try to hang anything on Janos' oil change.

Thank you all so much for helping in this!! Going in with some info helped us keep this thing moving forward. I really did not want them to tear into that perfectly good engine without ruling everything out!! Or, as they were on the verge of at one point, to send it to Ford to be torn up.
Lynn

Glad to hear that things are working out! That's great news.

Just one thing to note. You mention that the shop is going to change the plugs for you. Make sure the replacement Spark Plugs are Double Platinum plugs!!! You'll find alot of shops try and save a few bucks by replacing the plugs with single platinum tips. The Duratec will eat through single plats in no time. You have Double Plats in there from the factory, and that's what you'll want in there now.

To be sure, get the part number of the plug they used, and check back with us to verify they used the right plugs. Knowledge is power.

Good luck with everything!

Did you get new plugs and wires as part of the original service? If they got the wires out of sequence I'd guess it could explain the troubles. Bucking and backfiring noises from firing out of sequence (could maybe explain the "engine trying to start backwards" comment they gave you

), and the gas soaked plugs from the tech unsucessfully trying to start it?

Or did they maybe do an oil change and try and start it with no oil (I've seen that before when I worked at an Instant Oil Change in college). Would sound VERY bad with no oil pressure, but wouldn't really explain the gas soaked plugs.

Originally posted by zgendron:
Glad to hear that things are working out! That's great news.

Just one thing to note. You mention that the shop is going to change the plugs for you. Make sure the replacement Spark Plugs are Double Platinum plugs!!! You'll find alot of shops try and save a few bucks by replacing the plugs with single platinum tips

Knowledge is power for sure, and without the knowledge I get from this website and the Contour listserve (both such great resources) my car would probably still be sitting unstarted and waiting for a major engine job it doesn't need!

I reminded the shop manager of the double plats. We had a hard time finding non-Ford plugs that looked and acted like Ford plugs, but found that the Autolyte double plats work fine. He asked if I'd rather have those than Ford plugs, and I picked the Fords, given the choice. I think he'll get the right plugs in but it wouldn't hurt to check, you're right!

Thanks!! Lynn

Originally posted by ScottK:
Did you get new plugs and wires as part of the original service?

Or did they maybe do an oil change and try and start it with no oil (I've seen that before when I worked at an Instant Oil Change in college).

Hi! They weren't supposed to do plugs, wire, or oil change as we did all that a bit ago (oil two weeks ago). It sounds like it could have flooded by being started cold, driven a very short distance, and turned off. A very experienced person on the list mentioned this as a possibility and something he's seen happen, though he said it isn't common. A flooded engine sounding like one throwing a timing chain and trying to start backward is sure a stretch, though... what a fiasco!

I'll feel better once I've driven it home tomorrow morning and all is well - can't wait to drive my little '95 'Tour MTX again!

Thanks

Lynn

Originally posted by zgendron:

Originally posted by Ferret II:
so I've got my heart sort of hung on it being an issue with the clutch not disengaging due to air in the system, resulting in no or much less damage than a "dead engine". I am surely fond of Ferret II!

This seems strange to me though. Even if the clutch was not fully disengaged, what would cause the engine to "die." With the clutch engaged, it means the power would go to the wheels, and the car would jerk. There was no mention of a jerking action by the mechanic.

Hi. It wouldn't have caused the engine to be destroyed but might have sounded really bad, if they'd started it in first and the clutch wasn't disengaged due to air in the system. It would have sounded like starting the car in first without the clutch in, a nasty sound. It was just something to make sure hadn't happened and caused the mechanic to think the timing chain or something else in the engine had broken. (And the fact that the car didn't jerk did weaken this theory.) Turns out anyway that the engine was flooded! How that was interpreted as sounding like a potentially broken timing chain and/or grinding valves/pistons I can't really imagine! Thanks! Lynn

I, for one, am interested to know how the car runs when the shop is done with it. I hope you get the Ferret II back in good order!

Hooray for Janos keeping his cool! I woulda whipped out an F.U. on the spot and challenged them to explain how an oil change could have done what he described. Situation deterioration from there....

Originally posted by TourDeForce:
I, for one, am interested to know how the car runs when the shop is done with it. I hope you get the Ferret II back in good order!

Hooray for Janos keeping his cool! I woulda whipped out an F.U. on the spot and challenged them to explain how an oil change could have done what he described. Situation deterioration from there....

Next post coming is the story of how Ferret II is running. In short, GREAT!!!! I got a good laugh out of your F.U. comment. You should have heard Janos go off after we left. Those M.Fers *&*#997#O@!@!! I didn't have a clue steam was boiling to erupt from his ears, though he did start getting into it with the service manager (who hadn't made the oil comment) soon after the shop manager made the oil comment... I sort of had to pat one's arm and tug them apart. Off to finish my Ferret II drives free post! Lynn

P.S. What a gorgeous shot of your car!

Hi!! Ferret II runs great!!!! Very perky. They think the engine flooding occurred because the key was left turned while the brakes were flushed. Still no real idea about the racket a mechanic supposedly heard, although they mentioned the TSB on the hydraulic tensioners as possibly related to it, but that shouldn't approach the sound of an interference engine blowing a timing chain or tensioner. Anyway, my car doesn't have the telltale rattle of tensioner wear. Somehow *it seems* they mistook a flooded engine for a self-destructing one. However, after I left today I realized that one of the mechanics reminds me of a mechanic at a Ford shop involved in another big repair bungle on Ferret II a couple years back... I'm going to try and find out if it's the same mechanic - probably just my overactive imagination being paranoid.

They didn't charge for the 60K service (flushed/filled four systems, new Ford plugs due to the flooding, thorough inspection) which made me a lot better (though not nearly as good as knowing I was going to drive my car home!). I also am sure they did a good job. On the positive side, I gained knowledge about the tensioner TSB (in fact I now have a long list of all '95 Contour TSBs), though I need to check if the tensioner TSB applies to my '95, i.e. if it's an early enough '95 model. In any case, knowing to listen for a telltale tensioner rattle could some day save Ferret II's engine (and life)! On the shop's end they're getting a new service manager this week. I guess the old one stormed out after being fired yelling that he was the greatest; only been there two months and didn't seem to have any experience at all they said, despite sterling references; he'd been generating complaints.

I like the Chrysler spec ATF+3 oil in the tranny; the shift feels cleaner, at least in third and fourth; not sure about first and second yet. I need to drive more.

Today's mechanic gave me details about his inspection (he seems to have done a thorough one) and said Ferret II is in very good shape, except I have a bent left rear wheel and the bolt is off my rear exhaust heat shield. I'm too embarrassed to say what I drove over a while back, but I was really happy afterward that my car drove at all. I'm a good driver but it was the first day on a job and I was pretty nervous and distracted... okay, it was a concrete parking strip, front and rear left wheels. The car's been aligned since. I have directional tires so they couldn't rotate that tire, as they didn't want to take it off the wheel and rebalance it - hm.. - and didn't want to put the wheel on the front, saying it would vibrate. Wish I hadn't bought directionals!

They also put the balance weights back where they belong, on the inside of the wheels, so my pretty SE wheels look nice and clean again.

I do need to buy a good '95 SE wheel though, so if anyone knows of a good used one for sale please let me know. I'll check out the CEG website ads. I think they run $250 - 300 used. Maybe I can find my old Cherry Ferret, my first '95 SE, totalled by a teen while parked. State Farm bought her for the junkyard

.... but would never tell me where they sold her.

It's fun knowing a little about mechanics (just enough to be dangerous). Today the mechanic that worked on my car, who I thoroughly liked, told me it has four oxygen sensors, and I said the '95 Contours have two oxygen sensors while the later models, '96 on up I was pretty sure, have four. He also said the only two things they didn't do for the 60K were the air filter and the passenger compartment filter, and I said I do those myself (nothing at all to crow about; I even broke a plastic bolt changing the pass comp filter).

I'M SO GLAD TO HAVE FERRET II BACK!!!!!!!! It's almost worth all this to feel even more appreciative of such a great little rig. Ferret II got a full tank of premium on the way home in reward

.
Lynn &
'95 Ford Contour SE (V-6) MTX, 60K, electric red, "Ferret II"

Originally posted by Ferret II:

Originally posted by TourDeForce:
I, for one, am interested to know how the car runs when the shop is done with it. I hope you get the Ferret II back in good order!

Hooray for Janos keeping his cool! I woulda whipped out an F.U. on the spot and challenged them to explain how an oil change could have done what he described. Situation deterioration from there....

Next post coming is the story of how Ferret II is running. In short, GREAT!!!!

P.S. What a gorgeous shot of your car!

You should check out the Group Buy section for a 2005 CEG calendar!! Lotsa fantastic cars there! Mine was relatively stock at the time, but now.... The 2006 calendar is gonna be really nice!

Glad to hear the car is back. I was without mine for a few days in November while the dealer FUBARed it over an electrical issue. Driving something else is just no comparison. Sooo glad to be behind the wheel again.

I will do ALL of my own work from now on, dealers & shops will never touch my car again - except for tires.

Wow! A true female Contour enthusiast, you are almost as rare as a dodo bird.
Welcome to CEG. What took you so long in finding this site?

Originally posted by spgoode:
Wow! A true female Contour enthusiast, you are almost as rare as a dodo bird.
Welcome to CEG. What took you so long in finding this site?

She's been around longer than most people here, at least on the mailing list. I remember when she lost Ferret 1 to a hit and run over like 3 or 4 years ago IIRC?

Originally posted by Ferret II:

Apparently the mechanic (who the manager says has 20 years experience and is a "master mechanic")

He couldn't tell the difference between a blown engine and one that is flooded?

Originally posted by TexasRealtor:

Originally posted by Ferret II:

Apparently the mechanic (who the manager says has 20 years experience and is a "master mechanic")

He couldn't tell the difference between a blown engine and one that is flooded?

So the story goes, though it's incredibly hard to believe, isn't it? I've even gone so far as to roll a pet conspiracy theory around in my little traumatized brain -I'm probably still a little bit deranged from thinking for three long days that Ferret II had a "dead engine". Glad to say the Ferret still runs like a champ!! Lynn

Glad to here everything worked out, and one less contique is in the bones yard!

Originally posted by ScottK:

Originally posted by spgoode:
Wow! A true female Contour enthusiast, you are almost as rare as a dodo bird.
Welcome to CEG. What took you so long in finding this site?

She's been around longer than most people here, at least on the mailing list. I remember when she lost Ferret 1 to a hit and run over like 3 or 4 years ago IIRC?

I got a great laugh out of your dodo bird analogy, Rod! LOL. I think it's called the dodo because it's a bird that can't fly

. Scott recalls correctly that I began posting a few years back on the CEG listserve about my wonderful '95 SE the Cherry Ferret - same color, make, model year as Ferret II, but with cloth interior, a tape deck, and no sun roof (I got both ferrets in early to mid-30s mileage range). But Cherry Ferret was a Washington-raised car so in even a tiche better shape overall than Ferret II (who was driven initially in Ohio, where there's more snow)... *sigh*. The Cherry Ferret was the first car I went out and found for myself, having inherited and finally, for the last one, purchased, three Datsun 210s from my dad. He maintained a whole fleet of B-210s and 210s with rebuilt engines for our family members and friends (he was a depression-raised Scotsman and loved to beat the sytem of dealerships) in the late 70s and 80s.

Can you imagine what it was like going from a Datsun 210 to a '95 Contour SE?? When I test drove the Cherry Ferret I felt like I was riding in a big, powerful pink cloud! I went right home and got on the web and found the CEG site and info/pics of the Duratec engine, posts about how fun these cars are, and pics of Contour gatherings (pretty cars all in a line), and called the woman and said please sell it to me! Another guy tried to talk her into selling to him, but she wouldn't.

I come from a family of backyard car mechanics. My brother built an MGB more than two decades ago, and still has it. I wish I'd learned more about cars back then. I did very little. I remember getting caught out on the street in front of our house wearing a bikini (believe me, that was awhile back!) while changing the brakes on my Volvo, when the hunk who'd been our high school football captain walked by. I also recall being out in the shop during a college break at 3am (after returning from a wild party) cleaning the oil pan in my old "Fliat", which my brother (and my girlfriend) had torn apart for a rebuild. Both brother and I went back to college and it was several months til he put it back together - quite a feat! Ah... the good old days...

Having lost the Cherry Ferret to a hit and run driver, a teen who was high and driving his grandma's behemoth (a 1988 Oldsmobile, which also totalled my husband's Suburban) was partially why I was so traumatized thinking Ferret II had also been destroyed in his prime, but in even weirder, more pointless circumstances. But it wasn't true!!

I sure appreciate having the list and this website. I didn't post on the web here for a long time because I was avoiding figuring out how to register and post

. I've certainly lurked around, but in my desperation through this maintenance nightmare I've become much more familiar with the site... so, there's always a silver lining!!

Lynn & Ferret II

Lol Cherry Ferret. That is funny.