Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Wrong. I can probably repeat what I did before...order it online and get it in 2 days...or at worst, order it off of one of the weekly tool men, and have it in the next week, not a month.



Quote:

Guess the Ford dealerships don't know to order it online.



And they never think to ask the local Cornwell or Matco tool men, etc... about those tools, each week that they're allowed to drive right on up to their service bays?

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The tool IS for timing belt changes. I don't know what you're going on about. Are we even talking about the same thing?




Quote:

Pretty hard to tell, with you in the conversation. I'm trying to be as clear as possible about the distinction of exactly which jobs are being talked about for each point, and you keep coming back with confusion.



We're talking about timing belt service and you're the one that brought your cardboard and one tooth rules to this conversation, not me.

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Are you talking about the tool [flat bar] that locks the cams? Fool, that alignment tool [flat bar] is an absolute must in order to set the cams in the "Valve Overlap" position...the settings have to be accurate.

Who said it was okay? You? The same person that said cardboard would work as an alignment tool.





Quote:

If it's an "absolute must", then how come Kremit and I both got our engines to run perfectly without needing it? Coincidence? Luck? Did we leave saucers of milk out for the engine fairies?



You don't need to align your cams...really? When you removed your belt's tension, do you remember what happened? One of your cams jumped for you, yes...even tho' everything was set at #1 TDC...correct? Why? Because it was under tension and didn't want to stay in the exact same position, the very moment that you started to release tension? And you claim that a tool isn't needed? LOL...then why did Kremit make one/use one...are you pretending that others don't use them?

-----

Quote:

That's why I say cardboard, or nothing at all, is okay --



Because your cams are floating in mid-air?

-----

Quote:

because when my friend and I went to the trouble of fabricating and using the precision alignment tool, all we accomplished with it was to show that the alignment was perfectly good already, just as it had been before the engine was taken apart. Because we kept the existing sprocket alignment on the camshafts. (And this wasn't just a belt change, this was a total teardown of the engine.)



Then how come about 99.9% of the time, at least, the alignment tool doesn't just flop in there like a piece of cardboard...the cams have to be rotated with an outside force to make the tool fit into the slots...because the cam is under its own pressure/

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
The three tools are required because on the zetec you sometimes have to readjust the cams...



Originally posted by Paul Kienitz:
Yes, you do, but not as a normal part of a timing belt change! When you do need to, then the alignment tool is required.



What are you going on about? The alignment tool will always be needed. What's wrong? You're unable to even use the proper terms for the tools?




Quote:

I'm being as precise as I can.



You're doing a terrible job.

-----

Quote:

Camshaft alignment tool = flat plate of precision thickness. Cam sprocket tool = long arm with two pegs a few inches apart (another thing I have a homemade version of). Crank positioning tool = the pin thing. All three are needed if you adjust the timing of the camshaft sprockets on the camshafts. None of the three are needed (though some are helpful) if you are only adjusting the timing of the belt teeth on the sprockets. The former is a fine adjustment, the latter is a coarse adjustment. That is why the first requires precise measurements and the second requires only rough ones. I don't know how I can be any more precise and careful in spelling out the distinctions I'm making.



By starting over...and you got it just back-a**wards...the alignment tool is the coarse adjuster, the sprocket holding tool is for going in and doing the fine adjustment [fact]...because, silly, once the belt is installed, everything is set but not just right, almost ready to go, you use the sprocket holder to back off the cam bolts...and the belt will get tighter, like magic, even though you probably won't actually see it happen when the tensioner pulls its little trick.

-----

Quote:

As far as I can tell at this point, you are not arguing with any one specific point I'm making, but just making a vague general denial in which I can't even tell which specific point you're trying to attack. I'm left wondering if you're the one who is confused between the two separate jobs being discussed and maybe not using the terminology clearly.



You don't know enough to understand what's happening...it's as easy as that.

-----

Originally posted by MeanGreen2:
I think that someone said that the peg is only needed when the cams need to be moved...so...why...the belt is meant to work as the cam holding tool, instead of an actual tool, allowing the crank to stay locked while the belt gets destroyed?



Quote:

"Belt as a cam holding tool??" Now you're just throwing out general confusion. Your idea of what you think I'm saying is practically the opposite of what I said, which was just that the sprocket holding tool is another item that is needed for sprocket timing adjustment but not for a timing belt change.



Absolutely not true. There are times that readjusting the cams is absolutely needed when doing the belt replacement. You can't just ignore the step just because you're too lazy or too dense. Did the factory let the engine leave out with misaligned cams? No. That's why the tools are needed and why the book says to get it closer than you already have if you can't put the tool right back into the slot, right after you just removed it.

And the timing peg is used for only one reason...when you grab up that belt with your hands and install it on the engine with your hands...no matter how ruff you try to get while removing the slack and getting the belt over the exhaust cam...no matter how much you growl and puff, the crankshaft will not move on you, not the least little bit.

-----

Quote:

No, the belt is not used as a cam holding tool. There is no need for a tool because you don't need to do any cam holding.



The peg/crank holder is doing its job at holding the crank, the alignment bar is doing its job at holding the cams, while *installing* the belt.

-----

Quote:

Just stick them right side up and slap the belt on, then verify that the crank and the cams are facing the correct direction at the same time, within an error of 4.5 degrees, which is pretty hard to miss.



4.5 degress...as in the alignment
tool will NOT fit back into the provided slots on the camshafts?!!...even tho' they're stuck up in the right direction? Darn...guess you'll have to loosen off the tensioner, reinstall the tool...and try it aGAIN...still too loose? Crap...better dig out the ol' cam pulley holding tool