|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,860
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,860 |
Quote:
The stock rods have proven to handle 330 ft-lbs, Chris spent what, $700+ for forged rods and on 15 pounds of boost hit 360 Ft-lbs?
Yeah they made 330 what once on a dyno and then a couple thousand miles on one motor. So we can all assume all duratec rods will not fatigue right? Wrong. To do over again I'd still buy the rods. Also that 15psi is on a 2.5 liter. You all 3.0 guys might get something different.
2001 Lincoln LS8
1994 Lexus GS300
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,676
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,676 |
Good lord, it's nice to have these discussions back. . .Tom, don't go back!
I'm sticking with the stock UIM setup and stock SVT cams. . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
|
|
Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
All bickering and such aside, NOBODY here can actually prove what the limit of the stock rods is, everything is pure theory. Most people usually figure engineers design to twice the anticipated load on the parts. If you take that into account then the stock design was set for 200 HP and 160's tq. In other words Tom you're most likely at the threshold limit of the stock items and as Keyser put it, it's only been a few thousand miles. Until someone puts up the money to fatigue test and limit test several NEW sets of these PM rods, then I wouldn't want to be the one pushing the limits. Also take into account unless you buy a brand new shortblock from Bill J all of these motors have some use on the all ready.
For those that think this is all great news that the stock rods can handle this much power, consider this scenario. Tom can buy and build his stock engines for $1500, so can I, so can several other people. Most people however are paying to have their motors built and possibly paying for the installation as well. Do you want to be the guinea pig with over $5-6K invested in a single motor installed? $900 for a set of rods is a heck of a lot of insurance in my book.
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,713
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,713 |
Heh heh heh... cam wars, rod wars, intercooler to the way-side. 
I'm with Rick on this. If you're building an engine or paying someone to do so (which many of us have to do), I'd do it right. Go w/ the cams that will hold tq longer (assuming you have a set readily available), rods if you're planning on pushing limits.
Edit: Yeah Demon, where are your dynos?  (I just wanna see that power curve  )
Last edited by Derk2000; 07/01/04 03:41 PM.
Derek
Scion xB 5-spd
Previous: 2000 Silver Frost SVT
Please share the road with cyclists.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by Keyser:
Quote:
The stock rods have proven to handle 330 ft-lbs, Chris spent what, $700+ for forged rods and on 15 pounds of boost hit 360 Ft-lbs?
Yeah they made 330 what once on a dyno and then a couple thousand miles on one motor. So we can all assume all duratec rods will not fatigue right? Wrong. To do over again I'd still buy the rods. Also that 15psi is on a 2.5 liter. You all 3.0 guys might get something different.
Sorry, that was 3 different sets of 3L rods that all pulled 300+ ft-lbs and none has broken. Think of it this way, the odds that the rods I got were just "good" rods is pretty slim when I have used 18 different rods in two different motors. Think what you want but that is pretty good odds that they will hold even more.
One time on a dyno, I don't think so. I've run both my motors on 91 octane at those levels with trips all the way to San Antonio, tucson and Phoenix and back. I drove it more in the last year than I did the whole other 4 years combined! Daily driver.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't get forged rods, I agree they are probably twice as strong too. I personnally wouldn't have spent the cash unless I was pushing over 400 HP, thats what I told you last year and that is what I stick by. You have gone the extra mile to produce a great motor, absolutely bullet proof and you should be proud of that. 15 psi is nothing to laugh at. I commend it. But when I talk about cost/performance ratio, I've got it figured out. There is no exact science to what we are doing and of course you could be right that the next set of rods may not all be good. That is a chance we take.
I assumed you felt justified in spending the extra cash and felt secure in the decision. That is why I expected you wouldn't be upset by my totally different opinions. Had I known I would have upset you I would have tempered it. Sorry Chris.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
All bickering and such aside, NOBODY here can actually prove what the limit of the stock rods is, everything is pure theory. Most people usually figure engineers design to twice the anticipated load on the parts. If you take that into account then the stock design was set for 200 HP and 160's tq. In other words Tom you're most likely at the threshold limit of the stock items and as Keyser put it, it's only been a few thousand miles. Until someone puts up the money to fatigue test and limit test several NEW sets of these PM rods, then I wouldn't want to be the one pushing the limits. Also take into account unless you buy a brand new shortblock from Bill J all of these motors have some use on the all ready.
For those that think this is all great news that the stock rods can handle this much power, consider this scenario. Tom can buy and build his stock engines for $1500, so can I, so can several other people. Most people however are paying to have their motors built and possibly paying for the installation as well. Do you want to be the guinea pig with over $5-6K invested in a single motor installed? $900 for a set of rods is a heck of a lot of insurance in my book.
Rick
The point is a good one except you have to remember that ford uses the identical rods in the Jaguar, debuting at 240 HP and 200+ something ft-lbs of torque. Double that and you are over 400 ft-lbs of torque at the crank.
Hell the Taurus/escape motors are rated at 200 ft-lbs so that equates to 400 ft-lbs.
Therefore I stand by what I said that the average rod can support 400 HP on these motors. It is the pistons I am more scared of.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
|
|
Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
Are we positive they are the same rods? I know it's the duratec motor, but just like SVT did with our motors and the LS engines, it wouldn't be inconcievable for Jag to run a slightly different casting. Part #'s, side by side pics?
Rick
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by Buckshot77:
Are we positive they are the same rods? I know it's the duratec motor, but just like SVT did with our motors and the LS engines, it wouldn't be inconcievable for Jag to run a slightly different casting. Part #'s, side by side pics?
Rick
Part numbers were the same.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by ssmumich00:
Good lord, it's nice to have these discussions back. . .Tom, don't go back!
I'm sticking with the stock UIM setup and stock SVT cams. . .
I would dearly like to hang around a little longer but I've only got another 10 days. I'm just glad I get a chance to see the new baby before I head back. I promise I'll try to maintain some discussions while I'm overseas. Besides, right or wrong I have to express my opinion. 
There are others around here who resemble that.....
(*thinks about Greg*)
It is good to be chatting with friends again, even if I'm starting some sh|t.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454
Learned patience the hard way
|
|
Learned patience the hard way
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,454 |
Wouldn't have it any other way Tom.
Owner of 00 #1611 Silver (Totalled) 98.5 T-Red SVT #6180
Buckshot77@msn.com
Misc 3L parts for sale
|
|
|
|
|
